Discussion: Podcasts

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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by vaderito on Sun 14 May - 18:02

@spacebaby45678 That's right. It's a convoluted scenario so it won't happen. It isn't that convoluted doesn't happen in movies but is less likely than something that isn't if there's a simpler solution.

The point of that Christ/anti-Christ joke is that sometimes you have to follow your instinct when predicting the sequel story regardless of what insiders reported. Cause inside reporting goes like this:

There's a hierarchy of sources and the one that reaches us (MSW, Knights) is the last in the line.

Because of that, what reaches us is filtered through several interpretations, paraphrasing, "I hope I've got that right", etc

Best case scenario is when the podcaster sees or hears the actual material (photo, concept art, sound bite) so we get the info filtered only through his or her eyes/ears. Lets say, they see a concept art, so they describe what they see. Mind you, even then you could see something slightly different when you actually see it for yourself. 

In the worst case scenario, someone saw something and told another and that one told the podcaster's source and the source told the podcaster. So podcaster is really reporting what the source has heard, so second, third, etc hand information. 

Anyway, what I'm saying is that "harbinger" thingy may not contradict some conclusions that have been reached here because the "harbinger" won't be a harbinger to the letter but something similar. Like, I believe that Rey and Kylo will be the new thing, "the first of the new" as Jason said in one of the recent podcasts, and "harbinger" doesn't contradict that. But the word used to describe what Rey may be ("harbinger") may not be the most adequate one.
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by Gemini on Sun 14 May - 18:13

Harbinger means:

"a person or thing that announces or signals the approach of another.

not that someone is that something..they announce/signal the arrival of something or someone else.

rey is a messenger, she has a messenger bag in TFA at the end.

And who is hunting Rey the heck down? Who is following at her heels?

lol

Being a harbinger would suggest that Rey is not doom itself, rey is not evil itself. She is a signal to Luke that evil in another form is coming? Maybe...we all know Kylo is hot on her trail.


Last edited by Gemini on Sun 14 May - 18:26; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by vaderito on Sun 14 May - 18:26

@Gemini wrote:Harbinger means:

"a person or thing that announces or signals the approach of another.

not that someone is that something..they announce the arrival of something or someone else.

rey is a messenger, she has a messenger bag in TFA at the end.

And who is hunting Rey the heck down? Who is following at her heels?

lol
@Gemini

Well, that's the thing. Messenger of what? Return of the Jedi? Arrival of the NEW Jedi? End of the Jedi? Arrival of her Force hubby Kylo?  Very Happy
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by Gemini on Sun 14 May - 18:28

@vaderito wrote:
@Gemini wrote:Harbinger means:

"a person or thing that announces or signals the approach of another.

not that someone is that something..they announce the arrival of something or someone else.

rey is a messenger, she has a messenger bag in TFA at the end.

And who is hunting Rey the heck down? Who is following at her heels?

lol
@Gemini

Well, that's the thing. Messenger of what? Return of the Jedi? Arrival of the NEW Jedi? End of the Jedi? Arrival of her Force hubby Kylo?  Very Happy
@vaderito

At least Im just happy that it doesn't seem to signal that she is the evil or the darkness. But she is the signal that evil is going to arrive, we all know Kylo is going to show up..but the thing about prophecy in Star Wars (or in any story) is that..prophecy doesn't always end how you think it will end.
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by Darth_Awakened on Sun 14 May - 18:34

@vaderito wrote:@spacebaby45678 That's right. It's a convoluted scenario so it won't happen. It isn't that convoluted doesn't happen in movies but is less likely than something that isn't if there's a simpler solution.

The point of that Christ/anti-Christ joke is that sometimes you have to follow your instinct when predicting the sequel story regardless of what insiders reported. Cause inside reporting goes like this:

There's a hierarchy of sources and the one that reaches us (MSW, Knights) is the last in the line.

Because of that, what reaches us is filtered through several interpretations, paraphrasing, "I hope I've got that right", etc

Best case scenario is when the podcaster sees or hears the actual material (photo, concept art, sound bite) so we get the info filtered only through his or her eyes/ears. Lets say, they see a concept art, so they describe what they see. Mind you, even then you could see something slightly different when you actually see it for yourself. 

In the worst case scenario, someone saw something and told another and that one told the podcaster's source and the source told the podcaster. So podcaster is really reporting what the source has heard, so second, third, etc hand information. 

Anyway, what I'm saying is that "harbinger" thingy may not contradict some conclusions that have been reached here because the "harbinger" won't be a harbinger to the letter but something similar. Like, I believe that Rey and Kylo will be the new thing, "the first of the new" as Jason said in one of the recent podcasts, and "harbinger" doesn't contradict that. But the word used to describe what Rey may be ("harbinger") may not be the most adequate one.
@vaderito

I agree with your analysis on rumors and sources. Also there's very important part of everything that podcasters also speculate a lot. A perfectly normal thing to do.

As far as I understood the whole "harbinger" thing, the base for it is the rumor that Luke is reluctant to train Rey (MSW) and Rey is the cause of Ben's fall (KOR). The rest of it seems to be the speculation part of the both podcasters.

Both of the rumors - may end as being legit or not.

And in the meantime every speculation is valid.

As I said before Luke's reluctance to train another Jedi seems even very legit, if he thinks that Jedi has to end.
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by vaderito on Sun 14 May - 18:46

@Gemini @Darth_Awakened

I'm gonna put both actual scoops side by side. Just the scoops, not the speculation:

MSW:"we’re going to get that Luke Skywalker is going to train or tell Rey what her connection to the Force is, that’s the exact wording. "


Knights: "So ages ago we've heard that Rey has no relation to anybody, she is literally a nobody, but she is the reason why Kylo turned to the Dark Side and that Kylo fell in her place".


Now tell me, what do you see or what interpretation do you get from these two original scoops, w/o speculation, when you look at them together?
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by Darth_Awakened on Sun 14 May - 19:06

@vaderito wrote:@Gemini @Darth_Awakened

I'm gonna put both actual scoops side by side. Just the scoops, not the speculation:

MSW:"we’re going to get that Luke Skywalker is going to train or tell Rey what her connection to the Force is, that’s the exact wording. "


Knights: "So ages ago we've heard that Rey has no relation to anybody, she is literally a nobody, but she is the reason why Kylo turned to the Dark Side and that Kylo fell in her place".


Now tell me, what do you see or what interpretation do you get from these two original scoops, w/o speculation, when you look at them together?
@vaderito

A million of possibilities really.

The most simple possible speculation: Rey was among those children who were targeted to join FO, along side with the fact that someone knew (parents? Snoke? Whomever?) that the child was very strong in the Force.

- as for my obvious mistake: I had to mix something (weren't the previous MSW rumors about Luke not being so crazy to train Rey ? or was it about Rey not being so happy about Luke's way of training ? I really can't remember now exactly where I got the idea)
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by vaderito on Sun 14 May - 19:19

@Darth_Awakened 

From what I have heard a few times, Rey is reluctant, if not angry at Luke Skywalker because she has to kill Kylo Ren and she doesn’t want to do it. The scene that follows appears to be when the showdown finally begins. I suppose she accepts her duty or has no choice but to fight.


http://makingstarwars.net/2016/05/star-wars-episode-viii-the-knights-of-ren/



I also suggest re-listening to this podcast:


http://roguewon.podbean.com/e/episode-6-now-this-is-rogue-winning/



and I also think that this old rumor that Jason got about TFA is worth reviewing again cause tons of stuff may turn viable in TLJ:


I had lunch with some friends in the know about the next Star Wars film. I would say this information is probably correct. I have yet to see any physical proof, but I do not doubt this information and there have been other hints along the same trajectory as of late. I don’t want to be the guy that tells you something different about Luke every week. But this feels right. So I’m sharing.

I think I can finally shed some faint light on the state of Luke Skywalker in Star Wars: Episode VII. For a months it has been a struggle as those in the know interpreted Luke’s situation differently. Some would say Luke Skywalker was evil and others would say “he’s not evil, that’s absurd.” It now makes a little more sense if this information is correct.

I’m told that in the back story for the film, Luke Skywalker does something amazing with the Force. He’s really powerful, more of “wizard than lightsaber wielding warrior.” Basically, Luke Skywalker has a “Force Unleashed” moment and realizes he might be bad for the universe.The aftermath of that event is difficult for Luke.

Luke Skywalker has become the most powerful Jedi ever, but he doesn’t believe he’s the wisest. He doesn’t want to make the mistake his father made by thinking he knows what’s right for the universe. Skywalker becomes somewhat deranged in his seclusion. He is consumed by his fear that if he should return to “society” his power could be misused, he could be manipulated, and he may accidentally hurt the one’s he loves.

For these reasons, to protect the galaxy and himself, Luke retreats into self-imposed exile for many years. I’m told he can’t always control the power. While he sits in a meditative state, he levitates things unconsciously and he’s not always in complete control and he’s never sure if he’s doing the will of the Force or acting on his own passions. Luke is seeing the past, the present, the future, “old friends long gone” and other things that prey upon his sanity.

Luke Skywalker is described as “creepy and frightening in appearance” because you supposedly can see “the fire in his eyes” behind his grizzled appearance during some scenes.

For most of Luke’s appearance in Star Wars: Episode VII, it is questionable if his madness will result in evil. Not even those that have known him for most of his life know if he’s sane or not. However, the villain and the new hero both draw Skywalker out and he’s forced to intervene in the galactic conflict. The imbalance he feared bringing back to the galaxy is set into motion by the new evil. But it is not only evil that brings Luke Skywalker out of exile. The good in the universe does as well when one of the heroes convinces him the place he is in is not where he belongs.

By the last act of the film, it is clear where Luke falls on spectrum of good and evil.

The interesting thing is that Star Wars has always been about family and love but also about righting the wrongs of the past generation. In some ways, the situation the galaxy finds itself in in Star Wars: Episode VII is Luke’s fault. His absence is the reason things have escalated in the universe.

My personal belief is that by the end of the film, Luke Skywalker returns looking like his old self again. It appears his character’s trajectory is one in which he has to atone with his place and power in the galaxy. By the end of the film, he apparently does, and our new heroes have a mentor to take on the old evil that has infected the galaxy during Skywalker’s absence.


http://makingstarwars.net/2014/11/star-wars-episode-vii-state-luke-skywalker/
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by Darth_Awakened on Sun 14 May - 19:26

@vaderito

Thank you for this. The Luke old rumor is especially interesting.
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by vaderito on Sun 14 May - 19:29

@Darth_Awakened wrote:@vaderito

Thank you for this. The Luke old rumor is especially interesting.
@Darth_Awakened

I know, right? It seems to me that big chunk of that backstory is in TLJ. I'm wondering if part of Jedi temple devastation could have been produced by his uncontrollable power. Cause that image from the teaser shows the level of havoc that Kylo alone couldn't have wreaked. So he either had big help or Luke's Force Unleashed did the trick. 

Also "more a wizard than lightsaber-wielding warrior" sounds like igniting the green wasn't the option back then and may not be the option now either.
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by spacebaby45678 on Sun 14 May - 19:35

@vaderito wrote:
@Darth_Awakened wrote:@vaderito

Thank you for this. The Luke old rumor is especially interesting.
@Darth_Awakened

I know, right? It seems to me that big chunk of that backstory is in TLJ. I'm wondering if part of Jedi temple devastation could have been produced by his uncontrollable power. Cause that image from the teaser shows the level of havoc that Kylo alone couldn't have wreaked. So he either had big help or Luke's Force Unleashed did the trick. 

Also "more a wizard than lightsaber-wielding warrior" sounds like igniting the green wasn't the option back then and may not be the option now either.
@vaderito

No wait... Luke is the Harbinger of Doom and Gloom?  Luke is the one who could destroy the galaxy? Lawd.
No wait, Kylo was the Harbinger of Vader returning hence why his abomination butt got sent off to Luke's church school.
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by Darth_Awakened on Sun 14 May - 19:39

@vaderito wrote:
@Darth_Awakened wrote:@vaderito

Thank you for this. The Luke old rumor is especially interesting.
@Darth_Awakened

I know, right? It seems to me that big chunk of that backstory is in TLJ. I'm wondering if part of Jedi temple devastation could have been produced by his uncontrollable power. Cause that image from the teaser shows the level of havoc that Kylo alone couldn't have wreaked. So he either had big help or Luke's Force Unleashed did the trick. 

Also "more a wizard than lightsaber-wielding warrior" sounds like igniting the green wasn't the option back then and may not be the option now either.
@vaderito

Yep. The Jedi "Taj Mahal" in fire comes to mind right away.
The only flaw I can see with that old rumor - is the lack of Ben Solo in it. And according to Han he was the one to blame for Luke's exile.
Still, Han's story always has a vibe of being "a certain point of view" moment in TFA.
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by vaderito on Sun 14 May - 19:46

@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@vaderito wrote:
@Darth_Awakened wrote:@vaderito

Thank you for this. The Luke old rumor is especially interesting.
@Darth_Awakened

I know, right? It seems to me that big chunk of that backstory is in TLJ. I'm wondering if part of Jedi temple devastation could have been produced by his uncontrollable power. Cause that image from the teaser shows the level of havoc that Kylo alone couldn't have wreaked. So he either had big help or Luke's Force Unleashed did the trick. 

Also "more a wizard than lightsaber-wielding warrior" sounds like igniting the green wasn't the option back then and may not be the option now either.
@vaderito

Yep. The Jedi "Taj Mahal"  in fire comes to mind right away.
The only flaw I can see with that old rumor - is the lack of Ben Solo in it. And according to Han he was the one to blame for Luke's exile.
Still, Han's story always has a vibe of being "a certain point of view" moment in TFA.
@Darth_Awakened

I don't think that Han's line contradict possible Force Unleashed moment. Kylo's betrayal is responsible. Now, there's a possibility that Force Unleahsed moment wasn't Luke's but Kylo's. I mean, that destruction is just mind-blowing. So what happened?

Kylo had help from FO military

Kylo had a Carrie/Firestarter moment

Luke had a Carrie/Firestarter moment triggered by Kylo's betrayal

Point is, ideas evolve, some are discarded, some are kept, some are given to other characters. I think there's something to that old rumor, especially in regards to Temple Destruction, but can't figure out how it plays out exactly.

@spacebaby45678

"Without the harbingers, there cannot be the balance in the Force."

"If Skywalker returns, the new harbingers will rise."

We have the name for the Grey Jedi, folks. It's (Grey) Harbingers.  lol!
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by WhatGirl on Sun 14 May - 19:49

Knights: So ages ago we've heard that Rey has no relation to anybody, she is literally a nobody, but she is the reason why Kylo turned to the Dark Side and that Kylo fell in her place".

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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by vaderito on Sun 14 May - 20:16

I've just re-read that Knights quote and this is what I find important:

 I have a certain loyalty to keeping things that are supposed to be secret, secret, and a loyalty to my friends.  So though while I promise they haven’t told me anything point blank, my theories won’t contradict our conversations. (IF THAT MAKES ANY SENSE)


I read this as that their theories are those conversations. In short, pay attention to theories cause they carry some spoiler in it. I'm wondering if that's the case with MSW, that their speculation carries stuff that they are sitting on and aren't identifying as a spoiler yet. Would it be even possible to speculate independently from spoiler info that one hasn't revealed yet if that info relates to speculation at hand? probably not. 
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by Maria Antonietta on Sun 14 May - 20:19

@WhatGirl wrote:
Knights: So ages ago we've heard that Rey has no relation to anybody, she is literally a nobody, but she is the reason why Kylo turned to the Dark Side and that Kylo fell in her place".

@WhatGirl

That's the best reaction pic in this case lol!
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by IoJovi on Sun 14 May - 20:37

@WhatGirl wrote:
Knights: So ages ago we've heard that Rey has no relation to anybody, she is literally a nobody, but she is the reason why Kylo turned to the Dark Side and that Kylo fell in her place".

@WhatGirl

Can someone help me out here? Kylo had fallen approximately around the same time as Bloodlines (six years before TFA).

Rey had been dropped off on Jakku 15 years before TFA. His fall and her being dropped off appear to be completely unrelated.

How in the world could he have fallen to the Dark in an effort so that she wouldn't?

Unless...he knew of some prophecy where he thought he had to do such a thing as it would prevent her from doing so, even if he didn't know exactly who *she* was at the time.

This would fall in line with the *interesting relationship* that JJ talks about in the commentary.

I'm also certain it would cause her feelings to soften a bit towards him once she learns this.

Hmm....

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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by vaderito on Sun 14 May - 20:55

@ioJovi That is right, that's what Knights speculate about. Since Rey and Kylo never met, and the chronology is what you listed, they speculate that he found out about something, wanted to stop it but didn't know who the right person was and killed the padawans just to be sure. 

That would be too much like Looper (Old Joe doesn't know which child is the future Rainmaker so he kills them all) which is too much like The Terminator (Terminator doesn't know which Sarah Connor is THE Sarah Connor so he kills them all) which is too much like King Herod and baby Jesus (Herod doesn't know which boy is the Chosen One so he orders the slaughter of them all). meaning it could happen cause it's a popular trope.
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by Darth_Awakened on Sun 14 May - 20:57

@IoJovi wrote:
@WhatGirl wrote:
Knights: So ages ago we've heard that Rey has no relation to anybody, she is literally a nobody, but she is the reason why Kylo turned to the Dark Side and that Kylo fell in her place".

@WhatGirl

Can someone help me out here? Kylo had fallen approximately around the same time as Bloodlines (six years before TFA).

Rey had been dropped off on Jakku 15 years before TFA. His fall and her being dropped off appear to be completely unrelated.

How in the world could he have fallen to the Dark in an effort so that she wouldn't?

Unless...he knew of some prophecy where he thought he had to do such a thing as it would prevent her from doing so, even if he didn't know exactly who *she* was at the time.

This would fall in line with the *interesting relationship* that JJ talks about in the commentary.

I'm also certain it would cause her feelings to soften a bit towards him once she learns this.

Hmm....
@IoJovi

It's a bit tricky all of it.
But there's also one thing in TFA that may or may not be connected to the theory:

Kylo's "What girl?" moment.
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by IoJovi on Sun 14 May - 21:00

@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:
@WhatGirl wrote:
Knights: So ages ago we've heard that Rey has no relation to anybody, she is literally a nobody, but she is the reason why Kylo turned to the Dark Side and that Kylo fell in her place".

@WhatGirl

Can someone help me out here? Kylo had fallen approximately around the same time as Bloodlines (six years before TFA).

Rey had been dropped off on Jakku 15 years before TFA. His fall and her being dropped off appear to be completely unrelated.

How in the world could he have fallen to the Dark in an effort so that she wouldn't?

Unless...he knew of some prophecy where he thought he had to do such a thing as it would prevent her from doing so, even if he didn't know exactly who *she* was at the time.

This would fall in line with the *interesting relationship* that JJ talks about in the commentary.

I'm also certain it would cause her feelings to soften a bit towards him once she learns this.

Hmm....
@IoJovi

It's a bit tricky all of it.
But there's also one thing in TFA that may or may not be connected to the theory:

Kylo's "What girl?" moment.
@Darth_Awakened

Interesting, but he clearly isn't trying to kill her. You'd think if he were to realize she was this embodiment of death he'd want to take her out. Instead, he offers to teach her, and therefore hone her abilities.

Talk about nuance though - if this is true, Adam Driver wasn't kidding when he used that word...

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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by vaderito on Sun 14 May - 21:08

Rey is the awakening and we still don't know what the hell that means aside her ability to use the Force without any formal training and learn from Kylo's mind. 

Moreover, we don't know if Rey and Kylo "mysterious connection" existed before they met or it formed during their meeting. Because that could have changed the course of the future if it happened when they met, instead of being something they were born with. 

I think it's going to be the Force Bond in the end but they won't call it the Force Bond.
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by Darth_Awakened on Sun 14 May - 21:16

@IoJovi wrote:
@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:
@WhatGirl wrote:
Knights: So ages ago we've heard that Rey has no relation to anybody, she is literally a nobody, but she is the reason why Kylo turned to the Dark Side and that Kylo fell in her place".

@WhatGirl

Can someone help me out here? Kylo had fallen approximately around the same time as Bloodlines (six years before TFA).

Rey had been dropped off on Jakku 15 years before TFA. His fall and her being dropped off appear to be completely unrelated.

How in the world could he have fallen to the Dark in an effort so that she wouldn't?

Unless...he knew of some prophecy where he thought he had to do such a thing as it would prevent her from doing so, even if he didn't know exactly who *she* was at the time.

This would fall in line with the *interesting relationship* that JJ talks about in the commentary.

I'm also certain it would cause her feelings to soften a bit towards him once she learns this.

Hmm....
@IoJovi

It's a bit tricky all of it.
But there's also one thing in TFA that may or may not be connected to the theory:

Kylo's "What girl?" moment.
@Darth_Awakened

Interesting, but he clearly isn't trying to kill her. You'd think if he were to realize she was this embodiment of death he'd want to take her out. Instead, he offers to teach her, and therefore hone her abilities.

Talk about nuance though - if this is true, Adam Driver wasn't kidding when he used that word...
@IoJovi

Yep. True. He doesn't want to kill her. Too many traps in the theory.

Rey as the cause of Ben's fall doesn't necessary mean that his fall happened the way KOR speculated i.e. killing padawans because he thought one of them is dangerous.
Another thing that bothers me is the rumor that SWNN brought: they claim that Luke and Ben both struggled with their faith given something connected to Jedi as such, not some ominous figure from the prophecy.
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by vaderito on Sun 14 May - 21:21

@Darth_Awakened I take SWNN rumors with a grain of salt. They aren't nearly as reliable as MSW from what I could see. For example, they claimed that there would be SW spin off announcements at the Celebration and there was none. They also claimed they had a part of trailer description (Canto Bight) and it wasn't in the trailer. They are good with debunking fake sources but when it comes to actual spoilers, eh, not so much. Also, see your PM.
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by Kessel on Sun 14 May - 21:25

I think the Kylo fell in Rey's place theory has the potential to add some real unique drama (for SW). It would also be a nice parallel if Kylo takes Rey's place since in TFA, she has figuratively taken Ben Solo's place. However, like others have pointed out, there are some logic holes based on what we saw in TFA. How does that theory tie in with the awakening in TFA, which is ostensibly Rey? Was that something unanticipated? Also, how does this tie in with Vader? Kylo thinks he's finishing what Vader started so I assume his mission is connected to whatever he believes Vader was trying to accomplish, and he doesn't agree with the rest of the GFFA that Vader/Anakin fulfilled his purpose by destroying the Sith.

I suppose Kylo could have had visions of what Rey was supposed to be, but how does it tie in with Vader? Also, if Kylo figured out who Rey was during the snow fight, why would he want her to join him if he took her place?

Don't get me wrong, I think the theory is headed in the right direction in that I think there is going to be a unique and interesting Force connection between Rey and Kylo that will make it impossible for them to be mere adversaries. I just wonder how it all fits in a way that makes sense.

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Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by Darth_Awakened on Sun 14 May - 21:28

@vaderito wrote:@Darth_Awakened I take SWNN rumors with a grain of salt. They aren't nearly as reliable as MSW from what I could see. For example, they claimed that there would be SW spin off announcements at the Celebration and there was none. They also claimed they had a part of trailer description (Canto Bight) and it wasn't in the trailer. They are good with debunking fake sources but when it comes to actual spoilers, eh, not so much. Also, see your PM.
@vaderito

I'am aware of it: SWNN is not the most reliable source, but far from being Mike Zeroh league of trashy speculation.
However, they also don't post the rumors so frequently.
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Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

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