The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by snufkin on Fri Jun 09 2017, 14:37

@meadowofashes said it better than I could, Hell of a missed opportunity if they went that route. Something that's well written, works within the context of the characters and story, doesn't feel like the typical "oh we gotta have a romance as part of the checklist" that undermines the female lead, and takes full advantage of the chemistry between the two characters while using it to explore/resolve their stories would be the best case scenario. Certainly a better one than the knee jerk, "romance undermines a female character and makes her weak" or "I don't want Rey involved with Kylo at all because he should suffer and figure out his s**t on his own" arguments you see in a lot of places. It's not her job to do emotional labor for either Luke or Ben, but those are also a pretty weak argument against any positive/resolved relationship between these two characters.

Especially because Rey's introduction of working her a** of at a demoralizing job just to schlep to an empty home and eat her sad single lady meal is such a classic type of montage. Sure reminded me of Judy in Zootopia among others:



I do fully expect that the demoralizing will happen with Luke, being difficult, refusing to leave Ache-to and return to his sister (Rey's whole MO is reuniting people w/home b/c nobody did that for her), whatever she figures out about his fall-out with Ben, weird Force s**t and how that ties in with her burgeoning powers and back story. Expect more of this for her



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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Kyla Ren on Fri Jun 09 2017, 15:06

@Darth Dingbat wrote:Re: Han's death - it was a bit too much and they could have done it other ways - for example, making Kylo responsible for Han's death without deliberately killing him. Kylo better have a good reason for doing what he does, or it's hard to imagine the audience forgiving him, IMO. (Though to me personally, the attack on Tuanul village was the worst thing Kylo did; Han's death didn't feel as emotional to me as it could have, and Han forgave his son so I fail to see it as an obstacle to his redemption. In fact, even the first time I saw TFA it seemed more like a catalyst to redemption to me. In the end Kylo had completely unravelled from the horrible villain he seemed to me on Jakku.)

At the same time, though, I don't see them backpedalling on whatever story they were planning to tell (JJ and Rian were co-operating, after all) just because of the audience reaction. They would have known patricide would make the audience angry.

I know the example of Snape isn't one-to-one comparable to Kylo, but it's still a good example of someone committing an unforgivable crime that later turns out to be forgivable after all. I think it can be done, and if done well, it can be a huge twist. But basically, I think there are only two ways to do it. Either extreme brainwashing/possession/an utterly broken mind, OR  a pretty darn GOOD motive. My gut feeling tells me the original young Jedi killer would have been of the first variety, and the Kylo we have now is of the second. I just feel like there's going to be a big twist that turns everything around.
@Darth Dingbat

I tend to agree about Kylo ordering the killing of the Tuanul villagers.  Most people seem to dismiss it or gloss over it, but I think it was probably just as bad as killing Han.  He wiped out an entire village when he could have spared them.  Maybe there are reasons he did it that we don't know about.  I know next to nothing about Lor San Tekka or the villagers, so maybe there's something that might make what Kylo did seem not as bad.  I don't know.

I also tend to agree about Kylo either having to be brainwashed and/or having a really good motive for doing the things that he did.  I know the brainwashing theory isn't popular, and I can kind of see why, but unless he has a really good reason for doing the things he did, like somehow he thought he was saving the galaxy or something, I really don't know how they're going to get the GA on board for his redemption.  As I've said before, I think the writers really have their work cut out for them.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by TheLastJedi on Fri Jun 09 2017, 15:23

@snufkin wrote:@meadowofashes said it better than I could, Hell of a missed opportunity if they went that route. Something that's well written, works within the context of the characters and story, doesn't feel like the typical "oh we gotta have a romance as part of the checklist" that undermines the female lead, and takes full advantage of the chemistry between the two characters while using it to explore/resolve their stories would be the best case scenario. Certainly a better one than the knee jerk, "romance undermines a female character and makes her weak" or "I don't want Rey involved with Kylo at all because he should suffer and figure out his s**t on his own" arguments you see in a lot of places. It's not her job to do emotional labor for either Luke or Ben, but those are also a pretty weak argument against any positive/resolved relationship between these two characters.

Especially because Rey's introduction of working her a** of at a demoralizing job just to schlep to an empty home and eat her sad single lady meal is such a classic type of montage. Sure reminded me of Judy in Zootopia among others:



I do fully expect that the demoralizing will happen with Luke, being difficult, refusing to leave Ache-to and return to his sister (Rey's whole MO is reuniting people w/home b/c nobody did that for her), whatever she figures out about his fall-out with Ben, weird Force s**t and how that ties in with her burgeoning powers and back story. Expect more of this for her



@snufkin


Disney loves the Beauty and the Beast stories in every form. Wink For me Zootopia was another example, isn't Judy as sweet girl who believes in justice and Nick a "criminal" who tries to fool her and a predator who may eat her? In the end Judy makes Nick join the police despite being her enemy by default.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by snufkin on Fri Jun 09 2017, 16:13

@TheLastJedi - I've heard it called the Predator and Prey narrative, which TFA flipped on its head by having Kylo pay dearly for his decision to kidnap Rey. It turns out that Zootopia did toy with introducing romance into the story (albeit as a misunderstanding) and that the directors are aware that it's become part of this larger romance or not debate (x)

“I found immediately that there’s one camp [of fans] that want Judy and Nick to be in love, and they ship these characters and want them to get married and show us drawings of their wedding,” Moore tells EW. “And then there’s the other side that says, ‘No, they cannot get married. Why do every male and female couple in a movie have to fall in love? There doesn’t have to be a romance! Why can’t they just be best friends?’ It’s amazing that people are passionate about it and will argue and discourse.”

This deleted clip finds Judy bringing Nick back to her apartment for safe refuge from the criminal conspiracy they’ve gotten themselves into in Zootopia — and waiting for her is the entire Hopps clan, visiting from rustic Bunnyburrow for a necessary check-up on their cop daughter. When Mr. and Mrs. Hopps mistake Nick for Judy’s boyfriend, it’s right out of Three’s Company — except these are procreating bunnies, so it’s more like hundreds, to be sure.

So, why’d the scene get cut? “We were looking for a moment where someone could threaten her ability to become a police officer, and we thought, well, maybe her parents,” says Moore. “Maybe they think she’s been lying to them, that she’s not a real cop, and they say, ‘Judy, you’re going home right now.’ But we tested it and people didn’t believe Judy would give up everything because mom and dad said go home. So that scene was the eventual creation of the actual scene in the movie when [Judy’s] boss, Bogo, almost cans her. Nick comes to rescue, like he does in this deleted scene, but it carries much more weight when it’s Bogo.”

Howard adds, “It’s great to be able to look back and review a scene like this. There’s a charm to her dad being so thrown by the fact that this was a potential boyfriend. When we screened it for our crew, we got huge laughs. It’s interesting to see this deleted scene because you do see the genesis and early infant form of those ideas before they really took hold. For this in particular, Judy steps up and defends Nick against her parents, but it flips in the real movie. And we gave that piece of power to Nick, and that then was something important to Judy that she can talk about in the next scene, which became the gondola scene where they level with each other.”

The whole debate, especially with Disney, seems to be tied up in some of the larger arguments (which are a completely different level of exhausting social debate) about parenting and Disney's role in pushing Princesses as an aspirational role model for girls. Given the backlash (and researchers are now starting to dig into actual data), Disney's aware and pushing things in the opposite direction. Some of us have thought that accounts for things like "there is no romance" in Rogue One (certain scenes to the contrary) and the some of the arguments from mainstream fandom that Rey "should" stay single and be a space ascetic like Luke because "she's a role model." That Disney and LF are aware of the backlash, so things are going in the opposite direction. Which would be a shame, you don't have to shut down that entire area of character development/exploration just because people have handled it in such a stereotypical and thoughtless manner in the past. Just follow Carrie Fisher's advice of "make the women smarter and the love scenes written better."
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by fuhry on Fri Jun 09 2017, 17:22

@Kyla Ren wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:Re: Han's death - it was a bit too much and they could have done it other ways - for example, making Kylo responsible for Han's death without deliberately killing him. Kylo better have a good reason for doing what he does, or it's hard to imagine the audience forgiving him, IMO. (Though to me personally, the attack on Tuanul village was the worst thing Kylo did; Han's death didn't feel as emotional to me as it could have, and Han forgave his son so I fail to see it as an obstacle to his redemption. In fact, even the first time I saw TFA it seemed more like a catalyst to redemption to me. In the end Kylo had completely unravelled from the horrible villain he seemed to me on Jakku.)

At the same time, though, I don't see them backpedalling on whatever story they were planning to tell (JJ and Rian were co-operating, after all) just because of the audience reaction. They would have known patricide would make the audience angry.

I know the example of Snape isn't one-to-one comparable to Kylo, but it's still a good example of someone committing an unforgivable crime that later turns out to be forgivable after all. I think it can be done, and if done well, it can be a huge twist. But basically, I think there are only two ways to do it. Either extreme brainwashing/possession/an utterly broken mind, OR  a pretty darn GOOD motive. My gut feeling tells me the original young Jedi killer would have been of the first variety, and the Kylo we have now is of the second. I just feel like there's going to be a big twist that turns everything around.
@Darth Dingbat

I tend to agree about Kylo ordering the killing of the Tuanul villagers.  Most people seem to dismiss it or gloss over it, but I think it was probably just as bad as killing Han.  He wiped out an entire village when he could have spared them.  Maybe there are reasons he did it that we don't know about.  I know next to nothing about Lor San Tekka or the villagers, so maybe there's something that might make what Kylo did seem not as bad.  I don't know.

I also tend to agree about Kylo either having to be brainwashed and/or having a really good motive for doing the things that he did.  I know the brainwashing theory isn't popular, and I can kind of see why, but unless he has a really good reason for doing the things he did, like somehow he thought he was saving the galaxy or something, I really don't know how they're going to get the GA on board for his redemption.  As I've said before, I think the writers really have their work cut out for them.
@Kyla Ren

I think that Kylo had all the villagers killed because Rey may be a survivor of another attack he did on a similar village with the Knights of Ren. And he's constantly trying to prove himself to Snoke as being completely rid of the light.

I also think that, though it would in no way justify Kylo's killing of Han, we will find out that Han did some bad, selfish, scoundrelly stuff between ROTJ and TFA, and that his moments of selflessness and devotion to the greater good are few and far between in his life. In fact, we've already been shown that Han is in the act of a big deception / swindle when he encounters Rey and Finn. If it hadn't been for Rey's presence, Han would have likely been killed there. Why doesn't Leia want to see Han? I mean, their love was epic, right? The stuff of legend. But it got to the point where Leia, who is supremely dedicated to the greater good, wanted nothing to do with him anymore. She obviously loved him and had sacrificed a lot for him, so he must have done some pretty bad stuff. Compromised the Republic. Cheated on her. Put Ben in danger. Something. If we find out something about that, it doesn't exactly absolve Kylo but it helps the audience swallow at least a partial redemption.

You know what else would get the audience on Kylo's side? Leia going dark. Just saying. If Han's death at then hands of their son and the destruction of the Republic turns out the be the thing that finally made her snap, and start getting extra vicious and cruel, it might make a Rey alliance/romance with Kylo more palatable to the audience.

I really think that Rey and Kylo coming together to save the galaxy is the most compelling story arc.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by TheLastJedi on Fri Jun 09 2017, 17:26

@snufkin wrote:@TheLastJedi - I've heard it called the Predator and Prey narrative, which TFA flipped on its head by having Kylo pay dearly for his decision to kidnap Rey. It turns out that Zootopia did toy with introducing romance into the story (albeit as a misunderstanding) and that the directors are aware that it's become part of this larger romance or not debate (x)

“I found immediately that there’s one camp [of fans] that want Judy and Nick to be in love, and they ship these characters and want them to get married and show us drawings of their wedding,” Moore tells EW. “And then there’s the other side that says, ‘No, they cannot get married. Why do every male and female couple in a movie have to fall in love? There doesn’t have to be a romance! Why can’t they just be best friends?’ It’s amazing that people are passionate about it and will argue and discourse.”

This deleted clip finds Judy bringing Nick back to her apartment for safe refuge from the criminal conspiracy they’ve gotten themselves into in Zootopia — and waiting for her is the entire Hopps clan, visiting from rustic Bunnyburrow for a necessary check-up on their cop daughter. When Mr. and Mrs. Hopps mistake Nick for Judy’s boyfriend, it’s right out of Three’s Company — except these are procreating bunnies, so it’s more like hundreds, to be sure.

So, why’d the scene get cut? “We were looking for a moment where someone could threaten her ability to become a police officer, and we thought, well, maybe her parents,” says Moore. “Maybe they think she’s been lying to them, that she’s not a real cop, and they say, ‘Judy, you’re going home right now.’ But we tested it and people didn’t believe Judy would give up everything because mom and dad said go home. So that scene was the eventual creation of the actual scene in the movie when [Judy’s] boss, Bogo, almost cans her. Nick comes to rescue, like he does in this deleted scene, but it carries much more weight when it’s Bogo.”

Howard adds, “It’s great to be able to look back and review a scene like this. There’s a charm to her dad being so thrown by the fact that this was a potential boyfriend. When we screened it for our crew, we got huge laughs. It’s interesting to see this deleted scene because you do see the genesis and early infant form of those ideas before they really took hold. For this in particular, Judy steps up and defends Nick against her parents, but it flips in the real movie. And we gave that piece of power to Nick, and that then was something important to Judy that she can talk about in the next scene, which became the gondola scene where they level with each other.”

The whole debate, especially with Disney, seems to be tied up in some of the larger arguments (which are a completely different level of exhausting social debate) about parenting and Disney's role in pushing Princesses as an aspirational role model for girls. Given the backlash (and researchers are now starting to dig into actual data), Disney's aware and pushing things in the opposite direction. Some of us have thought that accounts for things like "there is no romance" in Rogue One (certain scenes to the contrary) and the some of the arguments from mainstream fandom that Rey "should" stay single and be a space ascetic like Luke because "she's a role model." That Disney and LF are aware of the backlash, so things are going in the opposite direction. Which would be a shame, you don't have to shut down that entire area of character development/exploration just because people have handled it in such a stereotypical and thoughtless manner in the past. Just follow Carrie Fisher's advice of "make the women smarter and the love scenes written better."
@snufkin


You always post very interesting facts, for real!
My comment was much more shallow in a way, so seeing the story behind this is very interesting.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Saracene on Fri Jun 09 2017, 17:38

@Kyla Ren I'm not sure, to be honest, why some fans think that revealing a good motive will get the audience on Kylo's side. What kind of motive would be good enough to make the fans feel better about the murder of Han? If anything, "the end justifies the means" line of thinking is the stuff of villains, and you're not really supposed to sympathise with that, at least not in the summer blockbusters aimed at kids. To use the Snape example, JK Rowling didn't exonerate Snape by saying, Snape betrayed and murdered Dumbledore, the only person who believed in him, but hey he did it for a good reason. She showed that there was no betrayal to start with and Dumbledore himself asked Snape to kill him.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by snufkin on Fri Jun 09 2017, 17:44

@TheLastJedi - I have a PhD in Wasting Time on the Internet (™)! The current environment right now is so fraught over everything. Like if the OT were happening right now, you know that people would be wringing their hands over what was going to happen with Han and Leia because "she's a role model"/heroine and he's an a**hole who's a murderer and criminal.

The Princess thing is interesting because you know that's why some fans are arguing vociferously that she shouldn't have any type of LI, in order to prevent those stereotypes. But at the same time, there's a very creepy, purity culture vibe under some of these same arguments that she "should" be Luke's daughter and that she "should" (despite being introduced as a sad, lonely, and isolated character hungry for human connection) stay single. I have a lot of friends who've managed to survive the Princess phase for their daughters and come through it okay. So some of that backlash seems to be misguided, if not as sexist as making it a point of pride that your daughter doesn't like anything that's pink or girly. Meanwhile the main point of Rey is to simply introduce the overdue idea that anybody can be a hero and that girls are the heroines of their own lives instead of standing on the sidelines.

ETA - here's another take along the same lines. That when you have these rare (and overdue) films with a female lead, the discussion itself, either media coverage or online fan discussions/debates almost focuses on the wrong question and inadvertently reinforces gender inequalities. Swap out Wonder Woman with Rey and you would be discussing a lot of what's been said about her character in the ST (x):

So ultimately, Wonder Woman is now the platform for political and social discourse and has come to serve as a source of inspiration for young girls who are vying for their own hero. It is an important touchstone featuring a strong female character, but it’s also just allowed to be a film.

While the existence of Wonder Woman is overdue and culturally crucial, the pressure we’ve put on it reiterates the message that female leads are not enough—that a story about a woman must be justified, scrutinized, and picked apart. Whether or not female-led reboots, action franchises, or even comedies will “pay off” have been debated since before Bridesmaids was meant to level the playing field for female comedians and filmmakers. We’ve watched as the merit of these movies are hotly contested by dudes who seem to feel threatened by fictional women carrying their own narrative currency, and we endure excessive eagle eyes kept on box office revenue. (As though bombs like King Arthur or Batman v. Superman never happened.) Movies like Wonder Woman don’t have the privilege of being simply a form of entertainment. Instead, they’ve come to act as warriors meant to strike back at the thousands rooting for them to fail.

Which sucks. It sucks that the act of going to the movies has to be anything more than a way to spend an afternoon, and it sucks that a freakish amount of pressure has been put on this film to prove that female-led action movies have merit. It also sucks that we’ve only ever seen this scrutiny happen with the likes of Fury Road and Ghostbusters, while male-led movies have failed spectacularly with hardly an eye-bat. It sucks that male characters get to star in movies and women have to lead crusades.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Kyla Ren on Sat Jun 10 2017, 06:42

@Saracene wrote:@Kyla Ren I'm not sure, to be honest, why some fans think that revealing a good motive will get the audience on Kylo's side. What kind of motive would be good enough to make the fans feel better about the murder of Han? If anything, "the end justifies the means" line of thinking is the stuff of villains, and you're not really supposed to sympathise with that, at least not in the summer blockbusters aimed at kids. To use the Snape example, JK Rowling didn't exonerate Snape by saying, Snape betrayed and murdered Dumbledore, the only person who believed in him, but hey he did it for a good reason. She showed that there was no betrayal to start with and Dumbledore himself asked Snape to kill him.
@Saracene

I'm not sure if a good motive would get most of the GA on Kylo's side or not, although I think it might help.  I'm sure there will always be some people who don't want to see Kylo redeemed no matter what.  But in any case, they have to do something to get people on board with his redemption and any romantic relationship he might have with Rey.  Unless they decide to have Rey go dark and we get a Renperor/Renpress Reylo romance, although I really doubt that's the direction they're going to go in.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Kyla Ren on Sat Jun 10 2017, 06:49

@fuhry wrote:
@Kyla Ren wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:Re: Han's death - it was a bit too much and they could have done it other ways - for example, making Kylo responsible for Han's death without deliberately killing him. Kylo better have a good reason for doing what he does, or it's hard to imagine the audience forgiving him, IMO. (Though to me personally, the attack on Tuanul village was the worst thing Kylo did; Han's death didn't feel as emotional to me as it could have, and Han forgave his son so I fail to see it as an obstacle to his redemption. In fact, even the first time I saw TFA it seemed more like a catalyst to redemption to me. In the end Kylo had completely unravelled from the horrible villain he seemed to me on Jakku.)

At the same time, though, I don't see them backpedalling on whatever story they were planning to tell (JJ and Rian were co-operating, after all) just because of the audience reaction. They would have known patricide would make the audience angry.

I know the example of Snape isn't one-to-one comparable to Kylo, but it's still a good example of someone committing an unforgivable crime that later turns out to be forgivable after all. I think it can be done, and if done well, it can be a huge twist. But basically, I think there are only two ways to do it. Either extreme brainwashing/possession/an utterly broken mind, OR  a pretty darn GOOD motive. My gut feeling tells me the original young Jedi killer would have been of the first variety, and the Kylo we have now is of the second. I just feel like there's going to be a big twist that turns everything around.
@Darth Dingbat

I tend to agree about Kylo ordering the killing of the Tuanul villagers.  Most people seem to dismiss it or gloss over it, but I think it was probably just as bad as killing Han.  He wiped out an entire village when he could have spared them.  Maybe there are reasons he did it that we don't know about.  I know next to nothing about Lor San Tekka or the villagers, so maybe there's something that might make what Kylo did seem not as bad.  I don't know.

I also tend to agree about Kylo either having to be brainwashed and/or having a really good motive for doing the things that he did.  I know the brainwashing theory isn't popular, and I can kind of see why, but unless he has a really good reason for doing the things he did, like somehow he thought he was saving the galaxy or something, I really don't know how they're going to get the GA on board for his redemption.  As I've said before, I think the writers really have their work cut out for them.
@Kyla Ren

I think that Kylo had all the villagers killed because Rey may be a survivor of another attack he did on a similar village with the Knights of Ren.  And he's constantly trying to prove himself to Snoke as being completely rid of the light.  

I also think that, though it would in no way justify Kylo's killing of Han, we will find out that Han did some bad, selfish, scoundrelly stuff between ROTJ and TFA, and that his moments of selflessness and devotion to the greater good are few and far between in his life.  In fact, we've already been shown that Han is in the act of a big deception / swindle when he encounters Rey and Finn.  If it hadn't been for Rey's presence, Han would have likely been killed there.  Why doesn't Leia want to see Han?  I mean, their love was epic, right?  The stuff of legend.  But it got to the point where Leia, who is supremely dedicated to the greater good, wanted nothing to do with him anymore.    She obviously loved him and had sacrificed a lot for him, so he must have done some pretty bad stuff.  Compromised the Republic.  Cheated on her.  Put Ben in danger.  Something.  If we find out something about that, it doesn't exactly absolve Kylo but it helps the audience swallow at least a partial redemption.

You know what else would get the audience on Kylo's side?  Leia going dark.  Just saying. If Han's death at then hands of their son and the destruction of the Republic turns out the be the thing that finally made her snap, and start getting extra vicious and cruel, it might make a Rey alliance/romance with Kylo more palatable to the audience.  

I really think that Rey and Kylo coming together to save the galaxy is the most compelling story arc.
@fuhry

My guess would be that Kylo's justification for ordering the killing of the villagers was that they were helping the Resistance and the First Order is at war with the Resistance.  But it still seems pretty horrible.

As far as Han goes, I think he was far from the perfect father.  I mean, who knows, he might have done an extremely poor job of being a father, and he did seem to have gone back to his old smuggling ways.  But even so, unless Han committed some truly awful crime, which I really doubt, I don't think anything he did will make the GA more accepting of his redemption.  I mean, I could be totally wrong, but I just don't see it happening. This is just my opinion, of course.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Sat Jun 10 2017, 10:08

I agree with @MeadowOfAshes.

I was a bit shaken by Romancegate since Reylo was named by the VF author, and thought that this might be LF's subtle way of telling us it wasn't going to happen without saying it directly themselves. Now that we're a couple weeks out and I've read the actual interview excerpts a few times, I'm convinced of romantic Reylo being endgame more than ever. Rian says they wanted to make a central romance in 8, but the characters just weren't in the right place yet. (Duh. Rey's pissed after the events in 7, and doesn't know anything about Ren's past yet. Who expects them to start hooking up in the next movie?) He also didn't say, "No romance," just that it wasn't going to be as central as Han and Leia's in ESB. I think that angsty scenes between Rey and Kylo were filmed for sure and think that Colin will make it happen later.
Kylo and Rey have been set up as equals of sorts. They're enemies now, but we expect Kylo to be redeemed, probably with Rey's help. They can read each others' minds, possible Force bond, will refuse to kill each other, etc. What kind of relationship would it make sense for them to have after that? Pseudo cousins/siblings? That would be very anticlimactic IMO. Especially when they're dynamic has been set up as the central one in 7.
Rey (we think) has no living relatives, Kylo, as of Episode 9, will have no parents Crying or Very sad and I don't think it's likely he'll get too cozy with Uncle Luke, if he's still around. I think it would be very satisfying if they end up being each other's missing pieces (and if Rey were a Kenobi, but Rolling Eyes). I also just love the tough young woman saves the dangerous emo guy from himself thing, and it would be a total waste if they don't end up together.
Funny how this thread is being filled with more discussions about why Reylo will happen rather than what will happen if it doesn't. Lol. I just can't imagine any other ending without it being completely awkward now.

Kylo: We cool?
Rey: Yep.
Kylo: Ok, lets be Jedi allies.

I don't see how Rey could completely trust him after everything if they don't become lovers. Also, wouldn't that be a reason for others (Finn, Poe) to believe that Kylo's truly redeemed? "Oh, well they're in love so, I guess he's firmly on our side now."
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by IoJovi on Sat Jun 10 2017, 10:57

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:I agree with @MeadowOfAshes.

I was a bit shaken by Romancegate since Reylo was named by the VF author, and thought that this might be LF's subtle way of telling us it wasn't going to happen without saying it directly themselves. Now that we're a couple weeks out and I've read the actual interview excerpts a few times, I'm convinced of romantic Reylo being endgame more than ever. Rian says they wanted to make a central romance in 8, but the characters just weren't in the right place yet. (Duh. Rey's pissed after the events in 7, and doesn't know anything about Ren's past yet. Who expects them to start hooking up in the next movie?) He also didn't say, "No romance," just that it wasn't going to be as central as Han and Leia's in ESB. I think that angsty scenes between Rey and Kylo were filmed for sure and think that Colin will make it happen later.
Kylo and Rey have been set up as equals of sorts. They're enemies now, but we expect Kylo to be redeemed, probably with Rey's help. They can read each others' minds, possible Force bond, will refuse to kill each other, etc. What kind of relationship would it make sense for them to have after that? Pseudo cousins/siblings? That would be very anticlimactic IMO. Especially when they're dynamic has been set up as the central one in 7.
Rey (we think) has no living relatives, Kylo, as of Episode 9, will have no parents Crying or Very sad and I don't think it's likely he'll get too cozy with Uncle Luke, if he's still around. I think it would be very satisfying if they end up being each other's missing pieces (and if Rey were a Kenobi, but Rolling Eyes). I also just love the tough young woman saves the dangerous emo guy from himself thing, and it would be a total waste if they don't end up together.
Funny how this thread is being filled with more discussions about why Reylo will happen rather than what will happen if it doesn't. Lol. I just can't imagine any other ending without it being completely awkward now.

Kylo: We cool?
Rey: Yep.
Kylo: Ok, lets be Jedi allies.

I don't see how Rey could completely trust him after everything if they don't become lovers. Also, wouldn't that be a reason for others (Finn, Poe) to believe that Kylo's truly redeemed? "Oh, well they're in love so, I guess he's firmly on our side now."
@Cowgirlsamurai

Same here!!! I'm more positive than ever it's going to happen, going off of everything you said above. Finn and Rey so easily could have been that Han and Leia style romance, so why aren't they going there? Why is Finn getting a new love interest? John Boyega says the romance isn't going to go the way you think it's going to go. What does he mean by that? Once you start asking those questions, the answers become obvious.

After the initial shock, and I saw the damage control come almost immediately after that article had been published, I knew we were fine. It was still killing me to see though our community so shaken up, not just by a potential debunk, but by the underlying sexism and condescending attitude reflected in Kamp's words. We have had so many great things thrown our way in the last year so it really threw everyone for a loop when this came out of nowhere. It didn't make a lick of sense to me and given everything we've seen, why they would suddenly throwing this out there now. Things weren't adding up.

I'm very heartened to see posts like your because I completely agree with everything you said.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sat Jun 10 2017, 12:50

I've done a lot of thinking about this thread in the past day or two, and I keep coming back to the conclusion that the only way romantic Reylo doesn't happen at all is if they turn out to be related or there's another curve coming that we don't know about yet (e.g. Kylo killed Rey's parents).

But I see both of those things being really unlikely:

* The only way I see them being related is if they go with one of the nutso theories, like Rey being the reincarnation of Anakin or something. We know that they aren't cousins and we know that they aren't siblings.
* And what would be the purpose of having had Kylo kill Rey's parents (if he's getting a redemption, which I'm confident he is), given that he's done Enough Bad Stuff already? What would it add to the story for him to have done that?

Maybe we don't get a happy ending overall with them together (i.e. Kylo goes off by himself and Rey starts the new Jedi order), but I'm not sure what would be gained by that either. I really think that the most logical way for Kylo to atone post-ST would be for him to help build the new Jedi order--he destroyed the last one; he should play a key role in rebuilding.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Darth_Awakened on Sat Jun 10 2017, 13:15

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:I've done a lot of thinking about this thread in the past day or two, and I keep coming back to the conclusion that the only way romantic Reylo doesn't happen at all is if they turn out to be related or there's another curve coming that we don't know about yet (e.g. Kylo killed Rey's parents).

But I see both of those things being really unlikely:

* The only way I see them being related is if they go with one of the nutso theories, like Rey being the reincarnation of Anakin or something. We know that they aren't cousins and we know that they aren't siblings.
* And what would be the purpose of having had Kylo kill Rey's parents (if he's getting a redemption, which I'm confident he is), given that he's done Enough Bad Stuff already? What would it add to the story for him to have done that?

Maybe we don't get a happy ending overall with them together (i.e. Kylo goes off by himself and Rey starts the new Jedi order), but I'm not sure what would be gained by that either. I really think that the most logical way for Kylo to atone post-ST would be for him to help build the new Jedi order--he destroyed the last one; he should play a key role in rebuilding.
@ISeeAnIsland

Agree.
I need to add that killing Rey's parents also brings another narrative problem: what the heck they have been doing between they left their daughter on Jakku and the point when they are killed by Kylo? (Several years gap).

Also after some hiatus I red again the notorious Kamp's article on "non-romance".
Suddenly, it looks so obvious to me that his intro and Rian's answers has NOTHING to do with each other. Kamp's "artistic freedom" was actually hilarious.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Guest on Sat Jun 10 2017, 14:08

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:I've done a lot of thinking about this thread in the past day or two, and I keep coming back to the conclusion that the only way romantic Reylo doesn't happen at all is if they turn out to be related or there's another curve coming that we don't know about yet (e.g. Kylo killed Rey's parents).

But I see both of those things being really unlikely:

* The only way I see them being related is if they go with one of the nutso theories, like Rey being the reincarnation of Anakin or something. We know that they aren't cousins and we know that they aren't siblings.
* And what would be the purpose of having had Kylo kill Rey's parents (if he's getting a redemption, which I'm confident he is), given that he's done Enough Bad Stuff already? What would it add to the story for him to have done that?

Maybe we don't get a happy ending overall with them together (i.e. Kylo goes off by himself and Rey starts the new Jedi order), but I'm not sure what would be gained by that either. I really think that the most logical way for Kylo to atone post-ST would be for him to help build the new Jedi order--he destroyed the last one; he should play a key role in rebuilding.
@ISeeAnIsland

I can see Luke pursuing Rey's parents if they were dark siders in hiding on Jakku and it's possible that Ben was present although as an apprentice he might not have had much to do with it. Her parents flee into the Unknown Regions, leaving her behind because they don't expect to survive or escape now that they've been found. Maybe a chase or battle follows which results in their deaths. Luke could have just wanted information about Snoke and his origins, and Rey's parents might've been the key to that but chose to die rather than help him. I think Rey is going to learn something shocking from or about Luke that will seriously test her; if anything, I imagine the revelation would bring her closer to Ben.

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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by ReyofLightSide on Sat Jun 10 2017, 15:11

I have been away and nearly had a heart attack when I saw this thread title- that something had been confirmed. But I see all is still well. Thumbs up
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Guest on Sat Jun 10 2017, 15:33

@ReyofLightSide wrote:I have been away and nearly had a heart attack when I saw this thread title- that something had been confirmed. But I see all is still well. Thumbs up
@ReyofLightSide

LOL I'm sorry.

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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by IoJovi on Sat Jun 10 2017, 15:38

@ReyofLightSide wrote:I have been away and nearly had a heart attack when I saw this thread title- that something had been confirmed. But I see all is still well. Thumbs up
@ReyofLightSide

Haha no worries!!! It's just a good conversation regardless of the title. What drives it home for me is that sure Rey and Kylo can have a spiritual bond that goes beyond a physical and romantic relationship, but without the latter it's not as convincing or gripping. The audience needs something they can relate to since nobody is Force sensitive in real life. In the OT it was father and son, and in this trilogy if Rey isn't related to Kylo, by deduction it has to be a romance.

I mean, how epic of a story is it between two people who have this soul crushing spiritual bond through the Force who just one day decide to become platonic, life long friends in the end? Laughing
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sat Jun 10 2017, 16:29

Re: the whole "But he killed Han!" issue...

I think that discussion around this is being overcomplicated in some places. Yes, there are people who never will forgive him for it, but overall, I think we just need most of the GA to understand where Kylo was coming from. And yeah, I think we're getting BOTH a combination of a sympathetic backstory AND a "good motive" for Kylo.

Some of the discussion around patricide is making it sound like Kylo wanted to kill Han...but clearly he didn't.

* I do think that Kylo is probably aware that he's made a deal with the devil in aligning himself with Snoke. I think it's pretty clear that he has some sort of noble, saving-the-galaxy type goal where he feels like he needs to be Snoke's apprentice to accomplish it.
* I also think that Snoke probably laid it out to Kylo that if he didn't kill his father, Snoke would kill Kylo.
* So, Kylo is on that bridge...he sees the light going out...he knows that Starkiller is about to fire...even if he left with Han, there'd be nowhere to go--he's dead, and along with that, the galaxy is doomed...OR, he goes through with it, kills Han, and at least Kylo lives (and is in Snoke's good graces, theoretically) and can continue to work towards whatever his goal is.

At least in that scenario, I think that most of the audience will be able to see where Kylo was coming from, even if they don't agree with it. And it doesn't require throwing Han under the bus as an abusive parent to do it.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by IoJovi on Sat Jun 10 2017, 16:35

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:Re: the whole "But he killed Han!" issue...

I think that discussion around this is being overcomplicated in some places. Yes, there are people who never will forgive him for it, but overall, I think we just need most of the GA to understand where Kylo was coming from. And yeah, I think we're getting BOTH a combination of a sympathetic backstory AND a "good motive" for Kylo.

Some of the discussion around patricide is making it sound like Kylo wanted to kill Han...but clearly he didn't.

* I do think that Kylo is probably aware that he's made a deal with the devil in aligning himself with Snoke. I think it's pretty clear that he has some sort of noble, saving-the-galaxy type goal where he feels like he needs to be Snoke's apprentice to accomplish it.
* I also think that Snoke probably laid it out to Kylo that if he didn't kill his father, Snoke would kill Kylo.
* So, Kylo is on that bridge...he sees the light going out...he knows that Starkiller is about to fire...even if he left with Han, there'd be nowhere to go--he's dead, and along with that, the galaxy is doomed...OR, he goes through with it, kills Han, and at least Kylo lives (and is in Snoke's good graces, theoretically) and can continue to work towards whatever his goal is.

At least in that scenario, I think that most of the audience will be able to see where Kylo was coming from, even if they don't agree with it. And it doesn't require throwing Han under the bus as an abusive parent to do it.
@ISeeAnIsland

In a few other areas of the Internet, I see a lot of "He killed Han in cold blood with no regrets!" And I'm just...did we even watch the same movie? Clearly he didn't want to do it, and he's not lying when he says he's being torn apart. This is even more evident in the snow fight as he is nothing but a hot mess at this point.

I personally think a sympathetic backstory for Ben is a must if the GA is going to accept any kind of Reylo scenario. The GA outside this forum isn't really on his side at this point, and we need that to get them to that next step. In that context, Rian's actual VF quote makes complete sense.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sat Jun 10 2017, 16:49

@IoJovi wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:Re: the whole "But he killed Han!" issue...

I think that discussion around this is being overcomplicated in some places. Yes, there are people who never will forgive him for it, but overall, I think we just need most of the GA to understand where Kylo was coming from. And yeah, I think we're getting BOTH a combination of a sympathetic backstory AND a "good motive" for Kylo.

Some of the discussion around patricide is making it sound like Kylo wanted to kill Han...but clearly he didn't.

* I do think that Kylo is probably aware that he's made a deal with the devil in aligning himself with Snoke. I think it's pretty clear that he has some sort of noble, saving-the-galaxy type goal where he feels like he needs to be Snoke's apprentice to accomplish it.
* I also think that Snoke probably laid it out to Kylo that if he didn't kill his father, Snoke would kill Kylo.
* So, Kylo is on that bridge...he sees the light going out...he knows that Starkiller is about to fire...even if he left with Han, there'd be nowhere to go--he's dead, and along with that, the galaxy is doomed...OR, he goes through with it, kills Han, and at least Kylo lives (and is in Snoke's good graces, theoretically) and can continue to work towards whatever his goal is.

At least in that scenario, I think that most of the audience will be able to see where Kylo was coming from, even if they don't agree with it. And it doesn't require throwing Han under the bus as an abusive parent to do it.
@ISeeAnIsland

In a few other areas of the Internet, I see a lot of "He killed Han in cold blood with no regrets!" And I'm just...did we even watch the same movie? Clearly he didn't want to do it, and he's not lying when he says he's being torn apart. This is even more evident in the snow fight as he is nothing but a hot mess at this point.

I personally think a sympathetic backstory for Ben is a must if the GA is going to accept any kind of Reylo scenario. The GA outside this forum isn't really on his side at this point, and we need that to get them to that next step. In that context, Rian's actual VF quote makes complete sense.
@IoJovi

Agreed. And as much as I loved Adam's nuanced acting and the directing choices made by JJ, I'm really wondering if the GA would be closer to being on the right page here if they'd thrown in a "what have I done???" falling to his knees for Kylo after Han drops off the bridge. (I think I even remember reading somewhere that there was a take where they'd actually done that.)
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Darth_Awakened on Sat Jun 10 2017, 17:04

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:Re: the whole "But he killed Han!" issue...

I think that discussion around this is being overcomplicated in some places. Yes, there are people who never will forgive him for it, but overall, I think we just need most of the GA to understand where Kylo was coming from. And yeah, I think we're getting BOTH a combination of a sympathetic backstory AND a "good motive" for Kylo.

Some of the discussion around patricide is making it sound like Kylo wanted to kill Han...but clearly he didn't.

* I do think that Kylo is probably aware that he's made a deal with the devil in aligning himself with Snoke. I think it's pretty clear that he has some sort of noble, saving-the-galaxy type goal where he feels like he needs to be Snoke's apprentice to accomplish it.
* I also think that Snoke probably laid it out to Kylo that if he didn't kill his father, Snoke would kill Kylo.
* So, Kylo is on that bridge...he sees the light going out...he knows that Starkiller is about to fire...even if he left with Han, there'd be nowhere to go--he's dead, and along with that, the galaxy is doomed...OR, he goes through with it, kills Han, and at least Kylo lives (and is in Snoke's good graces, theoretically) and can continue to work towards whatever his goal is.

At least in that scenario, I think that most of the audience will be able to see where Kylo was coming from, even if they don't agree with it. And it doesn't require throwing Han under the bus as an abusive parent to do it.
@ISeeAnIsland

In a few other areas of the Internet, I see a lot of "He killed Han in cold blood with no regrets!" And I'm just...did we even watch the same movie? Clearly he didn't want to do it, and he's not lying when he says he's being torn apart. This is even more evident in the snow fight as he is nothing but a hot mess at this point.

I personally think a sympathetic backstory for Ben is a must if the GA is going to accept any kind of Reylo scenario. The GA outside this forum isn't really on his side at this point, and we need that to get them to that next step. In that context, Rian's actual VF quote makes complete sense.
@IoJovi

Agreed. And as much as I loved Adam's nuanced acting and the directing choices made by JJ, I'm really wondering if the GA would be closer to being on the right page here if they'd thrown in a "what have I done???" falling to his knees for Kylo after Han drops off the bridge. (I think I even remember reading somewhere that there was a take where they'd actually done that.)
@ISeeAnIsland

Maybe they thought it would not be too subtle and too obvious an they ruled it out. Though I'll sound maybe pretentious as heck by claiming they overestimated the audience a bit (definitely a part of the audience who didn't catch Kylo's obvious shock and remorse right afterwords).

Besides this I do think that Kylo's choice to kill Han has also something to do with his previous deeds and the guilt it came with it ("It's too late") Han is literally offering the forgiveness but Kylo rejects it, not because he's an EVIL brat, but rather because he doesn't think he deserves it (at least it's how I read it and understand).
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Acritiqua on Sat Jun 10 2017, 17:07

See, and that they didn't do that I really appreciate because I don't need to see Kylo dramatically fall to his knees with an Anakin-style "What have I done?!" to see that Kylo was horrified and shocked by what he had done.

@ISeeAnIsland I really think that Kylo thought killing Han would increase his powers on the dark side so he could finish what Vader started (what that means to him and/or where it comes from I wait to see, but I think that Kylo has a sense of trying to do the "right thing" in some of this). This is important because when he learns that's not the result (it's not as promised), it gives him cause to question/doubt Snoke. I don't think that Kylo understands how badly he has been (ab)used and victimized by Snoke, deceived, betrayed, etc. He's a child victim of a predator, and it's messed with his head, and he can't fully see straight. Instead he seems to think his own parents victimized him and Snoke is like his "savior" or something.

I agree that he's trapped and that he knows it. Not only would Snoke not let him go, but his own deeds make him feel like it's too late because he's already gone too far. He needs hope to overturn that, or a commitment/devotion to something greater than himself. Or it could simply be that the pain is too intense, and indeed he does want it to end, and perhaps he'll see that the dark side only makes the pain worse.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by ZioRen on Sat Jun 10 2017, 17:16

Yeah even though I didn't find that scene subtle at all, it appears to me that most of the audience actually missed the part where Kylo was horrified by what he did. Based on how they talk, anyways.

I'm not too worried about that, though. Kylo regretting killing his father is pretty much the only thing they've been clear about regarding his character arc in TLJ. If the general audience didn't pick up on it in TFA, they definitely will in TLJ.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by IoJovi on Sat Jun 10 2017, 17:21

@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:Re: the whole "But he killed Han!" issue...

I think that discussion around this is being overcomplicated in some places. Yes, there are people who never will forgive him for it, but overall, I think we just need most of the GA to understand where Kylo was coming from. And yeah, I think we're getting BOTH a combination of a sympathetic backstory AND a "good motive" for Kylo.

Some of the discussion around patricide is making it sound like Kylo wanted to kill Han...but clearly he didn't.

* I do think that Kylo is probably aware that he's made a deal with the devil in aligning himself with Snoke. I think it's pretty clear that he has some sort of noble, saving-the-galaxy type goal where he feels like he needs to be Snoke's apprentice to accomplish it.
* I also think that Snoke probably laid it out to Kylo that if he didn't kill his father, Snoke would kill Kylo.
* So, Kylo is on that bridge...he sees the light going out...he knows that Starkiller is about to fire...even if he left with Han, there'd be nowhere to go--he's dead, and along with that, the galaxy is doomed...OR, he goes through with it, kills Han, and at least Kylo lives (and is in Snoke's good graces, theoretically) and can continue to work towards whatever his goal is.

At least in that scenario, I think that most of the audience will be able to see where Kylo was coming from, even if they don't agree with it. And it doesn't require throwing Han under the bus as an abusive parent to do it.
@ISeeAnIsland

In a few other areas of the Internet, I see a lot of "He killed Han in cold blood with no regrets!" And I'm just...did we even watch the same movie? Clearly he didn't want to do it, and he's not lying when he says he's being torn apart. This is even more evident in the snow fight as he is nothing but a hot mess at this point.

I personally think a sympathetic backstory for Ben is a must if the GA is going to accept any kind of Reylo scenario. The GA outside this forum isn't really on his side at this point, and we need that to get them to that next step. In that context, Rian's actual VF quote makes complete sense.
@IoJovi

Agreed. And as much as I loved Adam's nuanced acting and the directing choices made by JJ, I'm really wondering if the GA would be closer to being on the right page here if they'd thrown in a "what have I done???" falling to his knees for Kylo after Han drops off the bridge. (I think I even remember reading somewhere that there was a take where they'd actually done that.)
@ISeeAnIsland

Maybe they thought it would not be too subtle and too obvious an they ruled it out. Though I'll sound maybe pretentious as heck by claiming they overestimated the audience a bit (definitely a part of the audience who didn't catch Kylo's obvious shock and remorse right afterwords).

Besides this I do think that Kylo's choice to kill Han has also something to do with his previous deeds and the guilt it came with it ("It's too late") Han is literally offering the forgiveness but Kylo rejects it, not because he's an EVIL brat, but rather because he doesn't think he deserves it (at least it's how I read it and understand).
@Darth_Awakened

They could have included a verbal "What have I done?!?" moment, but it would have had the potential to come off as campy and take away from the scene. The way I read it says he has remorse that he's trying to bury. If you include that line, the meaning changes.

Actually what I love about TFA is everything is shown rather than told. Rey's introduction includes no dialogue, but you feel her loneliness immediately and what she's been through. Kylo's regret over killing Han. Rey and Kylo's physical attraction to one another.

If they were to dumb these things down for the audience, it wouldn't come across nearly as well, and would have the potential to border on prequel territory, where there was so much exposition it took the viewer out of the story.
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