The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Page 6 of 21 Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7 ... 13 ... 21  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Darth_Awakened on Sat 10 Jun 2017 - 14:34

@IoJovi wrote:
@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:Re: the whole "But he killed Han!" issue...

I think that discussion around this is being overcomplicated in some places. Yes, there are people who never will forgive him for it, but overall, I think we just need most of the GA to understand where Kylo was coming from. And yeah, I think we're getting BOTH a combination of a sympathetic backstory AND a "good motive" for Kylo.

Some of the discussion around patricide is making it sound like Kylo wanted to kill Han...but clearly he didn't.

* I do think that Kylo is probably aware that he's made a deal with the devil in aligning himself with Snoke. I think it's pretty clear that he has some sort of noble, saving-the-galaxy type goal where he feels like he needs to be Snoke's apprentice to accomplish it.
* I also think that Snoke probably laid it out to Kylo that if he didn't kill his father, Snoke would kill Kylo.
* So, Kylo is on that bridge...he sees the light going out...he knows that Starkiller is about to fire...even if he left with Han, there'd be nowhere to go--he's dead, and along with that, the galaxy is doomed...OR, he goes through with it, kills Han, and at least Kylo lives (and is in Snoke's good graces, theoretically) and can continue to work towards whatever his goal is.

At least in that scenario, I think that most of the audience will be able to see where Kylo was coming from, even if they don't agree with it. And it doesn't require throwing Han under the bus as an abusive parent to do it.
@ISeeAnIsland

In a few other areas of the Internet, I see a lot of "He killed Han in cold blood with no regrets!" And I'm just...did we even watch the same movie? Clearly he didn't want to do it, and he's not lying when he says he's being torn apart. This is even more evident in the snow fight as he is nothing but a hot mess at this point.

I personally think a sympathetic backstory for Ben is a must if the GA is going to accept any kind of Reylo scenario. The GA outside this forum isn't really on his side at this point, and we need that to get them to that next step. In that context, Rian's actual VF quote makes complete sense.
@IoJovi

Agreed. And as much as I loved Adam's nuanced acting and the directing choices made by JJ, I'm really wondering if the GA would be closer to being on the right page here if they'd thrown in a "what have I done???" falling to his knees for Kylo after Han drops off the bridge. (I think I even remember reading somewhere that there was a take where they'd actually done that.)
@ISeeAnIsland

Maybe they thought it would not be too subtle and too obvious an they ruled it out. Though I'll sound maybe pretentious as heck by claiming they overestimated the audience a bit (definitely a part of the audience who didn't catch Kylo's obvious shock and remorse right afterwords).

Besides this I do think that Kylo's choice to kill Han has also something to do with his previous deeds and the guilt it came with it ("It's too late") Han is literally offering the forgiveness but Kylo rejects it, not because he's an EVIL brat, but rather because he doesn't think he deserves it (at least it's how I read it and understand).
@Darth_Awakened

They could have included a verbal "What have I done?!?" moment, but it would have had the potential to come off as campy and take away from the scene. The way I read it says he has remorse that he's trying to bury. If you include that line, the meaning changes.

Actually what I love about TFA is everything is shown rather than told. Rey's introduction includes no dialogue, but you feel her loneliness immediately and what she's been through. Kylo's regret over killing Han. Rey and Kylo's physical attraction to one another.

If they were to dumb these things down for the audience, it wouldn't come across nearly as well, and would have the potential to border on prequel territory, where there was so much exposition it took the viewer out of the story.
@IoJovi

Of course, I find it more interesting and thrilling as TFA we saw. I just wanted to point out that some of it was not enough for some corners of the fandom.
avatar
Darth_Awakened
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 4083
Likes : 19393
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

Back to top Go down

Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by DarthRen on Sat 10 Jun 2017 - 20:50

If someone already posted it, then sorry but this is totally hilarious. Laughing my a** off everytime I'm watching it. Lolilol

Totally non-romantic relationship. ROFL

https://psy-kylo-gy.tumblr.com/post/161366975454/my-favorite-scenes-set-to-my-favorite-piece-from
avatar
DarthRen
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1944
Likes : 5699
Date d'inscription : 2016-12-05
Age : 28
Localisation : Prague, Czech Republic

Back to top Go down

Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Saracene on Sun 11 Jun 2017 - 4:08

@ZioRen wrote:Yeah even though I didn't find that scene subtle at all, it appears to me that most of the audience actually missed the part where Kylo was horrified by what he did. Based on how they talk, anyways.

I'm not too worried about that, though. Kylo regretting killing his father is pretty much the only thing they've been clear about regarding his character arc in TLJ. If the general audience didn't pick up on it in TFA, they definitely will in TLJ.
@ZioRen

The first time I watched TFA, I completely missed out on Kylo's reaction shot, the film was moving so fast.

Maybe they didn't need to spell it out with Kylo falling to his knees crying "oh what have I done??", but the movie could have lingered on that moment of regret, let it breathe a bit and register with the audience better.
avatar
Saracene
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1543
Likes : 9511
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-27
Age : 37
Localisation : Melbourne

http://yggdrasille.com

Back to top Go down

Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by rey09 on Sun 11 Jun 2017 - 4:48

@Saracene wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:Yeah even though I didn't find that scene subtle at all, it appears to me that most of the audience actually missed the part where Kylo was horrified by what he did. Based on how they talk, anyways.

I'm not too worried about that, though. Kylo regretting killing his father is pretty much the only thing they've been clear about regarding his character arc in TLJ. If the general audience didn't pick up on it in TFA, they definitely will in TLJ.
@ZioRen

The first time I watched TFA, I completely missed out on Kylo's reaction shot, the film was moving so fast.

Maybe they didn't need to spell it out with Kylo falling to his knees crying "oh what have I done??", but the movie could have lingered on that moment of regret, let it breathe a bit and register with the audience better.
@Saracene exactly! To this day, I am bothered by how they dealt with the scene. It comes off very sadistic actually- that's how I initially viewed the scene. I couldn't tell if he was being genuine or playing along, which many were probably thinking. The only reason I believed in redemption was by the virtue of being SW, he just had to be redeemed. The scene didn't get me to that point at all. Now that I see the sun metaphor and what the script actually says, it made way more sense, but I wish they conveyed it more. They didn't have to get dramatic about but I agree, just lingering on his face more with a little more disturbed face would have helped.
avatar
rey09
Jedi Master
Jedi Master

Messages : 832
Likes : 3913
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-29

Back to top Go down

Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Sun 11 Jun 2017 - 5:07

@Saracene wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:Yeah even though I didn't find that scene subtle at all, it appears to me that most of the audience actually missed the part where Kylo was horrified by what he did. Based on how they talk, anyways.

I'm not too worried about that, though. Kylo regretting killing his father is pretty much the only thing they've been clear about regarding his character arc in TLJ. If the general audience didn't pick up on it in TFA, they definitely will in TLJ.
@ZioRen

The first time I watched TFA, I completely missed out on Kylo's reaction shot, the film was moving so fast.

Maybe they didn't need to spell it out with Kylo falling to his knees crying "oh what have I done??", but the movie could have lingered on that moment of regret, let it breathe a bit and register with the audience better.
@Saracene

The first time I saw TFA, I completely missed the part where Snoke tells Hux, "Come to me with Kylo Ren, I need to complete his training," so when Starkiller blew up I thought Kylo died, LMAO! You never know what people who've seen the movie only once didn't pick up on.
avatar
Cowgirlsamurai
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1256
Likes : 5891
Date d'inscription : 2017-03-30
Age : 31

Back to top Go down

Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Sun 11 Jun 2017 - 5:13

@rey09 wrote:
@Saracene wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:Yeah even though I didn't find that scene subtle at all, it appears to me that most of the audience actually missed the part where Kylo was horrified by what he did. Based on how they talk, anyways.

I'm not too worried about that, though. Kylo regretting killing his father is pretty much the only thing they've been clear about regarding his character arc in TLJ. If the general audience didn't pick up on it in TFA, they definitely will in TLJ.
@ZioRen

The first time I watched TFA, I completely missed out on Kylo's reaction shot, the film was moving so fast.

Maybe they didn't need to spell it out with Kylo falling to his knees crying "oh what have I done??", but the movie could have lingered on that moment of regret, let it breathe a bit and register with the audience better.
@Saracene exactly! To this day, I am bothered by how they dealt with the scene. It comes off very sadistic actually- that's how I initially viewed the scene. I couldn't tell if he was being genuine or playing along, which many were probably thinking. The only reason I believed in redemption was by the virtue of being SW, he just had to be redeemed. The scene didn't get me to that point at all. Now that I see the sun metaphor and what the script actually says, it made way more sense, but I wish they conveyed it more. They didn't have to get dramatic about but I agree, just lingering on his face more with a little more disturbed face would have helped.
@rey09

The novel really helped in this regard. That facial expression wasn't enough because right after that, he storms off in to the woods after Finnrey and says that line, "Han Solo can't save you," which sounds like, "Heh, finally got rid of that sucker." Also, most people think that Leia's distress is caused by her feeling Han die, but she's actually feeling her son's pain and she can guess what it is he's done. I understand why people think Kylo's all bad just from the film.
avatar
Cowgirlsamurai
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1256
Likes : 5891
Date d'inscription : 2017-03-30
Age : 31

Back to top Go down

Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by rey09 on Sun 11 Jun 2017 - 5:31

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@rey09 wrote:
@Saracene wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:Yeah even though I didn't find that scene subtle at all, it appears to me that most of the audience actually missed the part where Kylo was horrified by what he did. Based on how they talk, anyways.

I'm not too worried about that, though. Kylo regretting killing his father is pretty much the only thing they've been clear about regarding his character arc in TLJ. If the general audience didn't pick up on it in TFA, they definitely will in TLJ.
@ZioRen

The first time I watched TFA, I completely missed out on Kylo's reaction shot, the film was moving so fast.

Maybe they didn't need to spell it out with Kylo falling to his knees crying "oh what have I done??", but the movie could have lingered on that moment of regret, let it breathe a bit and register with the audience better.
@Saracene exactly! To this day, I am bothered by how they dealt with the scene. It comes off very sadistic actually- that's how I initially viewed the scene. I couldn't tell if he was being genuine or playing along, which many were probably thinking. The only reason I believed in redemption was by the virtue of being SW, he just had to be redeemed. The scene didn't get me to that point at all. Now that I see the sun metaphor and what the script actually says, it made way more sense, but I wish they conveyed it more. They didn't have to get dramatic about but I agree, just lingering on his face more with a little more disturbed face would have helped.
@rey09

The novel really helped in this regard. That facial expression wasn't enough because right after that, he storms off in to the woods after Finnrey and says that line, "Han Solo can't save you," which sounds like, "Heh, finally got rid of that sucker." Also, most people think that Leia's distress is caused by her feeling Han die, but she's actually feeling her son's pain and she can guess what it is he's done. I understand why people think Kylo's all bad just from the film.
@Cowgirlsamurai That's interesting, I always thought Leia felt Han's death intermixed with Kylo's action, but didn't think she was feeling her son's pain. That's in the book?
avatar
rey09
Jedi Master
Jedi Master

Messages : 832
Likes : 3913
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-29

Back to top Go down

Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by IoJovi on Sun 11 Jun 2017 - 5:34

@rey09 wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@rey09 wrote:
@Saracene wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:Yeah even though I didn't find that scene subtle at all, it appears to me that most of the audience actually missed the part where Kylo was horrified by what he did. Based on how they talk, anyways.

I'm not too worried about that, though. Kylo regretting killing his father is pretty much the only thing they've been clear about regarding his character arc in TLJ. If the general audience didn't pick up on it in TFA, they definitely will in TLJ.
@ZioRen

The first time I watched TFA, I completely missed out on Kylo's reaction shot, the film was moving so fast.

Maybe they didn't need to spell it out with Kylo falling to his knees crying "oh what have I done??", but the movie could have lingered on that moment of regret, let it breathe a bit and register with the audience better.
@Saracene exactly! To this day, I am bothered by how they dealt with the scene. It comes off very sadistic actually- that's how I initially viewed the scene. I couldn't tell if he was being genuine or playing along, which many were probably thinking. The only reason I believed in redemption was by the virtue of being SW, he just had to be redeemed. The scene didn't get me to that point at all. Now that I see the sun metaphor and what the script actually says, it made way more sense, but I wish they conveyed it more. They didn't have to get dramatic about but I agree, just lingering on his face more with a little more disturbed face would have helped.
@rey09

The novel really helped in this regard. That facial expression wasn't enough because right after that, he storms off in to the woods after Finnrey and says that line, "Han Solo can't save you," which sounds like, "Heh, finally got rid of that sucker." Also, most people think that Leia's distress is caused by her feeling Han die, but she's actually feeling her son's pain and she can guess what it is he's done. I understand why people think Kylo's all bad just from the film.
@Cowgirlsamurai That's interesting, I always thought Leia felt Han's death intermixed with Kylo's action, but didn't think she was feeling her son's pain. That's in the book?
@rey09

Leia has the exact same expression as Kylo immediately following that scene back to back, so it's not a stretch she's feeling her son's pain. This is another example of something that's shown rather than told so of course it's left up to interpretation. I doubt we'll ever get a confirmed answer, but it's fun to speculate.
avatar
IoJovi
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 6470
Likes : 36518
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25
Age : 101
Localisation : Atlanta, GA

Back to top Go down

Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Sun 11 Jun 2017 - 5:59

@rey09

That bit about Leia is actually from JJ's commentary. I think she can feel his regret at what he's done.
Here are the quotes.

 "And I think, the instant that he’s done it, he regrets it. And in another system across the galaxy, his mother feels it too. This established idea that Leia is also strong with the Force has always been fascinating to me. Clearly she took another path, and training with the Force was not her thing. But I have always felt that Leia had the same potential that Luke did.”
avatar
Cowgirlsamurai
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1256
Likes : 5891
Date d'inscription : 2017-03-30
Age : 31

Back to top Go down

Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by MeadowofAshes on Sun 11 Jun 2017 - 13:07

I can see why people think Kylo lured Han into the catwalk during a first view. Heck, that's part of the reason I put the movie down for 6 weeks before reading the novelization and watching pirated scenes before it came to DVD. Because I also knew, based on what I know of his character type and foreshadowing, he had a redemption arc, so I knew I was judging the character too harshly due to anger at killing Han.

That said, I think Leia is definitely feeling Ben's pain along with Han's death, even without commentary on the matter. Ben's in shock and pain and then they cut to Leia in shock and pain. A matter of simple sequencing.

As to Ben's redemption as discussed a page or so back, of course he has to pull his own head out of his a$$. That doesn't negate Rey playing a key role in that, just as Luke did for Anakin. Remember, we also have that lovely metaphorical scene with the Falcon symbolizing Ben. Han can't fix it, but Rey does when she bypasses the compressor. Totally unnecessary scene that contributes nothing to the plot of it's not symbolic.

@cowgirlsamurai I agree with JJ's interpretation. Yoda doesn't tell Obi-Wan "There is another [hope]" for nothing. If Luke failed, Yoda had every intention of reaching out to Leia, no doubt in my mind about that.
avatar
MeadowofAshes
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1760
Likes : 9861
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25
Age : 31

Back to top Go down

Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by BenOrgana on Mon 12 Jun 2017 - 2:42

In Attack of the Clones, when Anakin's mother dies and he kills the sand people, Yoda not only senses their deaths but he also feels Anakin's pain. Very reasonable to think Leia felt the same thing.

BenOrgana
Jedi Youngling
Jedi Youngling

Messages : 73
Likes : 327
Date d'inscription : 2017-01-18

Back to top Go down

Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by rey09 on Mon 12 Jun 2017 - 3:32

That's good to know- I guess on a first viewing, if I didn't really know he felt about it, I didn't translate that into leia feeling what he felt. It'll be interesting to see how leia address that in TLJ.
avatar
rey09
Jedi Master
Jedi Master

Messages : 832
Likes : 3913
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-29

Back to top Go down

Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Reynak on Mon 12 Jun 2017 - 4:45

@IoJovi wrote:
@ReyofLightSide wrote:I have been away and nearly had a heart attack when I saw this thread title- that something had been confirmed. But I see all is still well. Thumbs up
@ReyofLightSide

Haha no worries!!!  It's just a good conversation regardless of the title.  What drives it home for me is that sure Rey and Kylo can have a spiritual bond that goes beyond a physical and romantic relationship, but without the latter it's not as convincing or gripping.  The audience needs something they can relate to since nobody is Force sensitive in real life.  In the OT it was father and son, and in this trilogy if Rey isn't related to Kylo, by deduction it has to be a romance.  

I mean, how epic of a story is it between two people who have this soul crushing spiritual bond through the Force who just one day decide to become platonic, life long friends in the end?  Laughing
@IoJovi

If they just became best friends the story would be much less compelling and attractive. This doesn't mean friendship is not important, far from it, in many cases it's more meaningful and lasting than most romances, but as far as stories go, romantic love always feels stronger than friendship. How many memorable movies or stories do you remember that had friendship as a central theme? A love story has become a genre for some reason, poems and songs have been written about love. How many songs and poems are about friendship? Is platonic love a genre?

Friendship is warm, stable and emotionally rewarding, but love is like a burning fire. It may not be better but is far more gripping when you want to tell a story. Why are FinnReys so disappointed that their pairing couple is presented by SW as besties? Because nothing compares to a great love storywise. Only parent-child love may be comparable, but nothing else is in a story. So I can't imagine why they would miss the chance to go for something great, with a strong punch. Platonic love hardly ever works in stories, it has no emotional  impact and this is important in a movie.

I can't se Kylo considering Rey as a platonic love, he is the all or nothing kind of person, a very passionate guy. He is the grandchild of Anakin and Padme, the son of Han and Leia, all of them examples of burning passionate love and Rey is a spirited girl who longs for affecton and a family of her own. How can their relatioship be platonic? It makes zero sense, IMO.

If she has nothing with Finn but they have chosen Finn to have a romantic interest of his own, which doesn't really seem necessary, this must be because  Reylo is the original plan. Also, a LI for Finn makes it easier for some fans to accept that he won't end up with Rey.

So, they may say what they wish, but Reylo makes sense and has also been foreshadowed in TFA. If it hadn't been, most of us wouldn't be here. I have nothing agaisnt shipping for the sake of it, but it has never been my cup of tea, I just read what was on the screen and I'm not making up anything or writing my own fanfic.

If they foreshadowed romance using tecniques we have been taught to read as clues for a future romance and they decide to ignore them, that will be a fiasco, blatant wrong story telling, but it's still their choice.

As for the ending, it can be sad, I have seen no signs that there will be a happy ending but I think there were clear signs in TFA hinting at a future romance, whatever its ending may be. We can even hope for a bittersweet or happy ending but I would be satisfied only with the love story that was promised, LOL. That would be enough because that's what they suggested in the previous movie, the rest remains to be seen.


Last edited by Reynak on Mon 12 Jun 2017 - 4:53; edited 1 time in total
avatar
Reynak
Jedi Knight
Jedi Knight

Messages : 595
Likes : 3665
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by BenOrgana on Mon 12 Jun 2017 - 4:52

@Reynak wrote:Platonic love hardly ever works in stories, it's has no emotional impact and this is important in a movie.

@Reynak

I wouldn't go that far - The Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Toy Story, The Shawshank Redemption - all stories that have platonic love, not romance, at their centre, and all pretty popular and emotionally engaging. Even the original Star Wars trilogy ends up being more about friendship and family than it is about the romance.

BenOrgana
Jedi Youngling
Jedi Youngling

Messages : 73
Likes : 327
Date d'inscription : 2017-01-18

Back to top Go down

Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Reynak on Mon 12 Jun 2017 - 4:58

@BenOrgana wrote:
@Reynak wrote:Platonic love hardly ever works in stories, it's has no emotional  impact and this is important in a movie.

@Reynak

I wouldn't go that far - The Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Toy Story, The Shawshank Redemption - all stories that have platonic love, not romance, at their centre, and all pretty popular and emotionally engaging. Even the original Star Wars trilogy ends up being more about friendship and family than it is about the romance.
@BenOrgana

I think friendship was important in those stories, but not central. And you have mentioned stories where there is also a grand romance. There is always friendship is stories, this is expected, but in many, especially in SW, there is also a romance.

This doesn't mean I think frienship doesn't appear in stories, it's present in most of them, but I don't think it is central in most. And I don't see how it could work for Rey and Kylo, they haven't been written like that.

Bridal carrying is not normally used as a sign of friendship in movies, as far as I know, for instance. It's used to hint at a crush, even if it is a villanous crush.


Last edited by Reynak on Mon 12 Jun 2017 - 5:12; edited 1 time in total
avatar
Reynak
Jedi Knight
Jedi Knight

Messages : 595
Likes : 3665
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by DarthRen on Mon 12 Jun 2017 - 5:08

@Reynak wrote:
@BenOrgana wrote:
@Reynak wrote:Platonic love hardly ever works in stories, it's has no emotional  impact and this is important in a movie.

@Reynak

I wouldn't go that far - The Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Toy Story, The Shawshank Redemption - all stories that have platonic love, not romance, at their centre, and all pretty popular and emotionally engaging. Even the original Star Wars trilogy ends up being more about friendship and family than it is about the romance.
@BenOrgana

I think friendship was important in those stories, but not central. And you have mentioned stories where there is also a grand romance. There is always friendship is stories, this is expected, but in many, especially in SW, there is also a romance.

This doesn't mean I think frienship doesn't appear in stories, it's present in most of them, but I don't think it is central in most. And I don't see how it could work for Rey and Kylo, they haven't been written like that.

Bride carrying is not normally used as a sign of friendship in movies, as far as I know, for instance. It's used to hint at a crush, even if it is a villanous crush.
@Reynak

I agree that friendship will not be the best way to go for Kylo and Rey.

But Harry, Ron and Hermione friendship is right at the center of Harry Potter movies, Lord of the Rings is literally about friendship, bond and love. It's right at the center of it. Probably can say the same thing for the rest.
avatar
DarthRen
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1944
Likes : 5699
Date d'inscription : 2016-12-05
Age : 28
Localisation : Prague, Czech Republic

Back to top Go down

Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by rey09 on Mon 12 Jun 2017 - 5:26

Harry Potter and LOTR are about friendship at the core- but they are also realistic when it comes to idk better way to say, "romantic expectations." Ron and Hermione become a thing. And Eowyn's got a major crush on Aragorn for obvious reasons lol.
avatar
rey09
Jedi Master
Jedi Master

Messages : 832
Likes : 3913
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-29

Back to top Go down

Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Reynak on Mon 12 Jun 2017 - 5:44

@DarthRen wrote:
@Reynak wrote:
@BenOrgana wrote:
@Reynak wrote:Platonic love hardly ever works in stories, it's has no emotional  impact and this is important in a movie.

@Reynak

I wouldn't go that far - The Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Toy Story, The Shawshank Redemption - all stories that have platonic love, not romance, at their centre, and all pretty popular and emotionally engaging. Even the original Star Wars trilogy ends up being more about friendship and family than it is about the romance.
@BenOrgana

I think friendship was important in those stories, but not central. And you have mentioned stories where there is also a grand romance. There is always friendship is stories, this is expected, but in many, especially in SW, there is also a romance.

This doesn't mean I think frienship doesn't appear in stories, it's present in most of them, but I don't think it is central in most. And I don't see how it could work for Rey and Kylo, they haven't been written like that.

Bride carrying is not normally used as a sign of friendship in movies, as far as I know, for instance. It's used to hint at a crush, even if it is a villanous crush.
@Reynak

I agree that friendship will not be the best way to go for Kylo and Rey.

But Harry, Ron and Hermione friendship is right at the center of Harry Potter movies, Lord of the Rings is literally about friendship, bond and love. It's right at the center of it. Probably can say the same thing for the rest.
@DarthRen

Why did Rowling pair up Ron and Hermione and Harry and Ginny? Was it necessary?
I know friendship is present in nearly all stories, it's taken for granted. But in both HF and LOTR, romance was important in the story. One can't substitute the other and platonic love doesn't take the place of romance in any of the stories you mentioned. Think of Eowyn, or think of Arwen's sacrifice, she renounced eternal life for love. Romance is there in LOTR. In HP romance is also  important, even though it's a story for children. In fact, Snape's  love for Lily is dramatically important for the story. It made Harry's life miserable because Snape was so mean to him, but also made Snape risk everything and give up his own life for no personal gain, just to honour an unrequited love.

Love is very important in some types of stories, not in all of them, but it is important in SW.
avatar
Reynak
Jedi Knight
Jedi Knight

Messages : 595
Likes : 3665
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by DarthRen on Mon 12 Jun 2017 - 13:30

@Reynak wrote:
@DarthRen wrote:
@Reynak wrote:
@BenOrgana wrote:
@Reynak wrote:Platonic love hardly ever works in stories, it's has no emotional  impact and this is important in a movie.

@Reynak

I wouldn't go that far - The Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Toy Story, The Shawshank Redemption - all stories that have platonic love, not romance, at their centre, and all pretty popular and emotionally engaging. Even the original Star Wars trilogy ends up being more about friendship and family than it is about the romance.
@BenOrgana

I think friendship was important in those stories, but not central. And you have mentioned stories where there is also a grand romance. There is always friendship is stories, this is expected, but in many, especially in SW, there is also a romance.

This doesn't mean I think frienship doesn't appear in stories, it's present in most of them, but I don't think it is central in most. And I don't see how it could work for Rey and Kylo, they haven't been written like that.

Bride carrying is not normally used as a sign of friendship in movies, as far as I know, for instance. It's used to hint at a crush, even if it is a villanous crush.
@Reynak

I agree that friendship will not be the best way to go for Kylo and Rey.

But Harry, Ron and Hermione friendship is right at the center of Harry Potter movies, Lord of the Rings is literally about friendship, bond and love. It's right at the center of it. Probably can say the same thing for the rest.
@DarthRen

Why did Rowling pair up Ron and Hermione and Harry and Ginny? Was it necessary?
I know friendship is present in nearly all stories, it's taken for granted. But in both HF and LOTR, romance was important in the story. One can't substitute the other and platonic love doesn't take the place of romance in any of the stories you mentioned. Think of Eowyn, or think of Arwen's sacrifice, she renounced eternal life for love. Romance is there in LOTR. In HP romance is also  important, even though it's a story for children. In fact, Snape's  love for Lily is dramatically important for the story. It made Harry's life miserable because Snape was so mean to him, but also made Snape risk everything and give up his own life for no personal gain, just to honour an unrequited love.

Love is very important in some types of stories, not in all of them, but it is important in SW.
@Reynak

Romance was important but so was friendship. In LOTR Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli and whole Fellowship of the Ring had arguably significance than Aragorn and Arwen story. Harry and Ginny ended up together because reasons? Not like it was the key theme throught the movies or Ron and Hermione. Harry, Ron, Hermione and the rest forming friendship and growing during that time is what was the core of the movies. We can find better examples of romantic love but these Harry Potter and LOTR arguably had more to do with friendship and love in general, than just romantic love of the characters at the core.

Either way friendship won't work the way they've done things with Kylo and Rey. It would be weird way to set up friendship because Rey and Finn that is friendship.
avatar
DarthRen
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1944
Likes : 5699
Date d'inscription : 2016-12-05
Age : 28
Localisation : Prague, Czech Republic

Back to top Go down

Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by guardienne on Tue 13 Jun 2017 - 0:42

i don't think people came out of star wars and thought of it as a romantic movie. han and leia were secondary to the vader plot, so obviously it would be interesting to merge those two Wink
avatar
guardienne
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 3250
Likes : 6486
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

Back to top Go down

Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Guest on Sat 24 Jun 2017 - 11:20

In TFA I do not think Kylo's feelings for Rey were platonic as even Pablo admitted that you could tell which gender he's attracted to by watching the movie. However, I really wish they'd kept in the "you have compassion for her" line. Also, I want to reiterate that I do think Reylo was planned by JJ and that was why the first movie was written and filmed the way it was. I don't think Reylos are delusional by any means or that we misread the film for noticing Kylo's fascination with Rey.

I feel however that there is going to be an inconsistency moving forward as Rian will not be picking up where JJ left off as far as romance goes between Kylo and Rey. I am not saying that there is NO ROMANCE in the trilogy at all since they have basically confirmed Finn/Rose. Again, this does not mean TFA was misinterpreted by us. It comes down to the change of directors and the story being taken into a different direction than we'd anticipated despite reading all of the signs correctly.

Kylo and Rey were not really supposed to be platonic soul-buddies or whatever, that is honestly an underwhelming way to conclude their story. It just doesn't make sense given the way they were cast. The two actors have an intense sexual chemistry that would make it weird - not wholly impossible, but definitely artificial and strange - for them to become eventually friends and nothing beyond that. But there has been undeniable controversy since TFA was released and I can see Kylo/Rey being made platonic - not friends per se, but allies within the Force.

I know that my post is all over the place and I'm sorry for that. It's complicated because I DO think we were right. I do think romantic Reylo was intended at one time to be canon. I still believe Rey and Kylo are going to be important to each other. She's going to want to redeem him after she learns of his backstory (and possibly her own backstory, if her family is somehow connected to the plot). I think she will succeed, and the question remains: why should Kylo give a damn about this random FS girl when his entire family has so far failed to save him from falling to the dark side?

Well, unlike his family, perhaps Rey herself somehow holds the key to destroying Snoke thereby making Ben's escape from his evil master possible. I believe that even if Ben had left SKB with Han, he would still not have been free. Unlike Finn who managed to get away simply by stealing a ship, I doubt it matters how much physical distance Ben places between himself and FO when Snoke is capable of sending thoughts directly into his mind. Rey showing Ben that there is actually hope of destroying Snoke and that she can help him finally be free from the evil whispers in his head could be the thing that brings them together as allies.

All of this should/normally would be the recipe for a central love story on a grand scale. Unfortunately though, I think we will be getting the sanitized version that is heavy on plot but scrubbed clean of any traces of romantic/sexual tension.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by IoJovi on Sat 24 Jun 2017 - 11:58

@WhatGirl it's still happening, and nothing has changed.  They're not going to advertise the plot twist (please keep in mind that the majority of the audience still believes in Reywalker).  

All RomanceGate ever was was misquotes and red herrings by Rian Johnson.  

Finn and Rey could have easily been Han and Leia.  So why isn't that happening if Reylo's going to be completely platonic?

I also know how much you loved that Pablo tweet about Kylo's sexuality being visible in TFA. That same tweet came long after filming for TLJ had wrapped.

You're right, we didn't misinterpret anything.  Wink


Last edited by IoJovi on Sat 24 Jun 2017 - 12:03; edited 1 time in total
avatar
IoJovi
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 6470
Likes : 36518
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25
Age : 101
Localisation : Atlanta, GA

Back to top Go down

Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by vaderito on Sat 24 Jun 2017 - 12:02

IMO, if the theme is balance, than making their relationship platonic makes ZERO sense. There were brother and sister (aka platonic balancers) in Mortis episode of CTW and that didn't work out. Father and son also didn't create any lasting balance (was the balance after Vader's death a thing for longer than 3 seconds?). When talking about male/female duality, nobody ever means male and female as siblings or cousins. 

My point is, why sanitize something that shouldn't be sanitized? There's no point in having a young woman and a young man (who looks like a Prince) if they are just going to be platonic.
avatar
vaderito
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 9324
Likes : 44374
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Sacrebleu on Sat 24 Jun 2017 - 12:20

WhatGirl wrote:In TFA I do not think Kylo's feelings for Rey were platonic as even Pablo admitted that you could tell which gender he's attracted to by watching the movie. However, I really wish they'd kept in the "you have compassion for her" line. Also, I want to reiterate that I do think Reylo was planned by JJ and that was why the first movie was written and filmed the way it was. I don't think Reylos are delusional by any means or that we misread the film for noticing Kylo's fascination with Rey.

I feel however that there is going to be an inconsistency moving forward as Rian will not be picking up where JJ left off as far as romance goes between Kylo and Rey. I am not saying that there is NO ROMANCE in the trilogy at all since they have basically confirmed Finn/Rose. Again, this does not mean TFA was misinterpreted by us. It comes down to the change of directors and the story being taken into a different direction than we'd anticipated despite reading all of the signs correctly.

Kylo and Rey were not really supposed to be platonic soul-buddies or whatever, that is honestly an underwhelming way to conclude their story. It just doesn't make sense given the way they were cast. The two actors have an intense sexual chemistry that would make it weird - not wholly impossible, but definitely artificial and strange - for them to become eventually friends and nothing beyond that. But there has been undeniable controversy since TFA was released and I can see Kylo/Rey being made platonic - not friends per se, but allies within the Force.

I know that my post is all over the place and I'm sorry for that. It's complicated because I DO think we were right. I do think romantic Reylo was intended at one time to be canon. I still believe Rey and Kylo are going to be important to each other. She's going to want to redeem him after she learns of his backstory (and possibly her own backstory, if her family is somehow connected to the plot). I think she will succeed, and the question remains: why should Kylo give a damn about this random FS girl when his entire family has so far failed to save him from falling to the dark side?

Well, unlike his family, perhaps Rey herself somehow holds the key to destroying Snoke thereby making Ben's escape from his evil master possible. I believe that even if Ben had left SKB with Han, he would still not have been free. Unlike Finn who managed to get away simply by stealing a ship, I doubt it matters how much physical distance Ben places between himself and FO when Snoke is capable of sending thoughts directly into his mind. Rey showing Ben that there is actually hope of destroying Snoke and that she can help him finally be free from the evil whispers in his head could be the thing that brings them together as allies.

All of this should/normally would be the recipe for a central love story on a grand scale. Unfortunately though, I think we will be getting the sanitized version that is heavy on plot but scrubbed clean of any traces of romantic/sexual tension.
@WhatGirl

I've had similar thoughts.  For me the strongest signs against Reylo are Rian's statements about no central romance and having the freedom to construct the plot for TLJ from "scratch", since we've based what we think will happen in TLJ on what we saw in TFA.  However, I don't believe those signs are definitive indicators.  We just don't know for sure what will happen.  I don't think Reylo is a certainty, but neither do I think any type of non-romantic relationship is a certainty.  The contradictory nature of the statements from all involved makes drawing a conclusion impossible.  I can't even tell if LF and KK are flying by the seat of their pants or have everything mapped out nicely; maybe the reality is somewhere in between.
avatar
Sacrebleu
Jedi Padawan
Jedi Padawan

Messages : 344
Likes : 1258
Date d'inscription : 2016-07-30

Back to top Go down

Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by adamdrivershair on Sat 24 Jun 2017 - 12:37

@WhatGirl That's an interesting thought on why Kylo might be swayed by Rey, it's a new thought to me. Basically "it is you," but she's only interesting to Kylo as a kind of "Joan of Arc in the Force."  

That could be plausible to me if they only ever spend time together in a group setting, a la Lord of the Rings, and if Rey develops as the heroine of the Force without Kylo being a key part of that. Take those elements out, and yeah, the most you can hope for is a brotherly, comrades-in-arms type of situation.

But so far, we've only ever seen the opposite of that scenario, and it's a fundamental part of their characterization. They are the "trains on a collision course," after all. I don't know much about Rian, but what I've seen from him I've really liked; I have a good feeling about him. Smile I think that since he collaborated closely with JJ and was there to go through dailies and watch as JJ made his deliberate choices about these characters, that he would be interested in following up with it. He's emphasized over and over again that he wants things to feel organic and to flow out of the previous movie. I think the intense, characterization-driven Rey-Kylo dynamic would be exactly the sort of thing that would intrigue him and give him fuel for writing, and that it would important to him to develop, especially since the abduction was basically the turning point for the plot in TFA.
avatar
adamdrivershair
Jedi Youngling
Jedi Youngling

Messages : 163
Likes : 870
Date d'inscription : 2017-05-27

Back to top Go down

Page 6 of 21 Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7 ... 13 ... 21  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum