The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by adamdrivershair on Fri 30 Jun - 1:20

@AceofWands wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:I wasn't talking about entitlement from the reylo fandom, I just meant in general. You see it across the fandom, people who demand Rey is related, people who demand she's not, people who demand Kylo dies because he killed Han. That's it, I'm not out to offend anyone here or upset people if my expectations are slightly different at this point. Maybe it's time for me to take a break from the board, apparently my words are getting twisted and I'm upsetting fellow shippers which is not at all what I want.
@BastilaBey

I wasn't offended, I just disagreed. I don't think anyone was offended or upset. It's cool to debate.
That's what discussion boards are for, no? You have an opinion, share, hear counter opinions, shift your view or not. It's good.

On the " entitlement", I'm also going to disagree a little. There's something in storytelling called raising and managing expectations. This blog explains a little: http://www.secretsofstory.com/search/label/How%20to%20Manage%20Expectations

According to this author, the creator has a sort of " contract" with the audience based on the expectations. Sure, the creator doesn't "owe" the audience anything, but raising false expectations or having thins happen out of the blue result in a poor product. And it's true.

Audiences expecting certain things is part of the process of engaging with the film. Reywalkers expect a continuation of Luke, they want Luke's legacy, and it makes sense. For Reylos, it's seeing that the undertones and foreshadowing had a meaning. For people who expect Kylo to die, it's the same thing. The problem with TFA is that it's so ambiguous... And it had red herring marketing.

So expectations are normal and part of engaging with the story. While some fans can be obnoxious, I think the majority isn't.

And here we are in 8 pages of non -romantic potential and all we see is Reywalker or Reylo. Which, by the way, is what most of the audience sees. So it's there for a reason.

So I'm sorry I disagreed and if my tone didn't come out clear. I didn't want to upset you.

I still think that this new tendency of self doubt in the Reylo fandom means letting the gaslighting take effect, and I think it's negative.

We are smart people who know what we saw. The VF article was a stupid journalist and the real quota was clarified shortly after the article was out.

Being among the forefront of all the Reylo discussion, I think it's super important for you not to let the self doubt take over and to put the VF fiasco in perspective, and analyse the context and all the other clues, but sure, it's a matter of interpretation.



@AceofWands

This is a bit condescending imo - as if you're suggesting that her interpretation is not valid because it's clouded by emotion or something, and telling her what to do. Disagree all you want but don't suggest she doesn't have things "in perspective."
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Helix on Fri 30 Jun - 1:23

@AceofWands wrote:
@Helix wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:I wasn't talking about entitlement from the reylo fandom, I just meant in general. You see it across the fandom, people who demand Rey is related, people who demand she's not, people who demand Kylo dies because he killed Han. That's it, I'm not out to offend anyone here or upset people if my expectations are slightly different at this point. Maybe it's time for me to take a break from the board, apparently my words are getting twisted and I'm upsetting fellow shippers which is not at all what I want.
@BastilaBey

I think it would be silly to say there isn't entitlement in the SW fandom, SW is one of the most entitled fandoms ( and I'm not targeting Reylos ) for all the reasons you mentioned and more. I think people ( despite this being a topic on non-romantic Reylo ) don't at all want to consider it because of x,y and z. Things like the 'mysterious connection' could easily be retconned and I'm not even shoving this in another thread to be a downer. Especially with different directors and their ideas for the series, that could all just be a JJ thing. Would it be cheap and inconsistent? Yeah, but films do that all the time. This is a thread on potential non-romance between the two, it's a 'what-if' rather than a 'romance is never happening'. Bastila has different expectations in a thread about that and she has the right to it. She's not shoving it down our throats or being a downer to be one, she's just saying she doesn't expect the same as some.
@Helix

Sorry, but I haven't seen anyone claim that she's shoving down anything on anyone's throats. This is a discussion board.

And of course the ST can be cheap and inconsistent.

And... again, without Reylo or Rey Solo, what can we have? Force buddies? Sure, but it goes off genre.

LF does owe the audience  a SW film, cause that's what people buy their tickets for. It means that certain elements must be present. And I personally find it super risky not having a Luke's children, cause one of the elements is this generational saga. They'll have to make Kylo pull it off as the Skywalker. I think it's possible, because AD is so good.

I find that the lack of Luke's legacy (either in a new generation of Jedi or with children) is concerning and problematic. What will they deliver to make up for it? Force buddies? Sorry but we're talking about millions of dollars here.
@AceofWands

A discussion board that dodges everything but the actual topic in favor of implying people with doubts are being gaslighted instead of any other reason they could be doubting things? You don't need to make excuses for her doubting. I never said anyone said she was forcing it down our throats, but rather to tell her her own thoughts are valid.

Who says it needs to stay on genre? You don't own SW and you're not in control, they can go off genre if they want.

They don't 'owe' us anything, Hollywood is an entertainment corporation. It's a business at the heart. You may not be happy with that as a fan, but they will deliver what they want and what they think is right. None of us know better than LF at what they're doing because it's not just a genre or a story, it's a business vessel. You say things like 'They also need to stick to the genre, or, again, they'll damage their brand.' but where is your proof? It'll peeve some fans off, but if the film and plot itself is good, it won't make that huge a difference. So it's not the OT Space Opera again to a T, is that necessarily a bad thing? Nope.

It's a movie. Love it or not, it'll always be a Hollywood corporate vessel and they don't care about staying on genre if it suits their story needs. They've basically said they aren't making this for old school fans, this trilogy is about bringing in new blood who don't possibly know or care about those little details. This is a trilogy for everyone, not just fans.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by WhatGirl on Fri 30 Jun - 1:34

@Helix wrote:I could understand if this were in every other thread or people were forcing it there, but this is a thread about non-romance potential with everything but actually considering it might not happen one way for more than a few paras.
@Helix

Yes, I started this thread to have a conversation about the various 'what ifs' since a few of us have doubts about romantic Reylo becoming canon. As we get closer to the release date of TLJ, more information will come out and as we've already seen, not all of it is going to inspire confidence.

It is distinct from fan fatigue in the sense that some of us may simply think a romance between Kylo and Rey is not going to happen in the way it initially seemed, and are not upset or looking for reassurance. It is just a discussion of the facts we currently have. We know for certain that they have a connection so what's that all about if they're not related AND it's not romance?

Keeping an open mind and exploring alternate possibilities is key, I think, if we don't want to get blind-sided by an explanation in TLJ that turns out to have nothing to do with romance at all. That is the whole purpose of this topic as you've pointed out. Smile If I were merely concerned about my theory not coming true, and unable to consider other options, I'd probably just stick to the fan fatigue thread.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by reylo1992 on Fri 30 Jun - 1:39

I think that Rian's comments inVF created such reactions because he was extremely ambiguous there. Saying that there's no one-to one equivalent of Han-to-Leia crush but then concluding that we'll have to seeon our own about people getting romantically is very ambiguous. This is quite in line with what Adam said repeatedly about Episode 8 being ambiguouswhen I think about it. This leads me to this SW scene:

When I watched it in the theaters, I really got the sensation that they would kiss there because the scene was obviously that way to get the romantic vibes there. Still, Cassian and Jyn never kissed - or if they did theGA wasn't meant to see that - and finally died as good friends. However, that single scene indicates where their relationship could have evolved if they had survive. Honestly I found the scene more powerful with that ambiguity than if they would have declared their love a la Han and Leia.

So perhaps that we will get one Reylo scene with that kind of interactions without having them romantically involved, keeping their relationship voluntarily ambiguous. There, Rian saying "youl'll have to see" about characters getting romantically involved would make much sense.

We know from J.J.Abrams that Rey and Ren's relationship is without any doubt the center of the ST. So what will happen to them in TLJ? The only things I feel pretty sure about this movie - I would say 95% sure - is that it will  end dramatically - if not tragically - in general and that I can't imagine any other scenario than Rey and Ren getting separated once again by the end of the movie. To me it makes no sense to have them ending the movie together in the Resistance, in the FO or anywhere. If their relationship is meant to remain ambiguous by the end of TLJ, it requires for them to end separated like it was the case at the end in TFA. So the question that I ask myself are: in which circumstances would they get separated and how would they handle it this time?

While answering questions on a podcast with yes or no, Daisy gave an interesting answer to that question:

Does Rey get injured?

Injured emotionally or physically? [...] I'll say yes!


I am no English native speaker so correct if you think I am wrong. Personally, if someone would have asked me if Rey get injured, I would have understood the question that way: "Does Rey get physically injured (like the previous heros of the trilogy)?". In French, when we say that someone is injured, we mean that this person is physically injured. However, if someone is emotionally injured then we really precise that this person is emotionally injured. So that's why I find pretty interesting that Daisy asked some precision about the meaning, which leads me to the assumption that Rey will get emotionally injured. She might get emotionally injured because of her disappointment with Luke but it doesn't to me like the most compelling option for the story. Perhaps she would get some revelation about the circumstances that led to her abandon. However, we already know from TFA that her family  is never ever coming back and that the center of her heroin's journey isn't to focus on her belonging behind but on her belonging ahead.

Knowing that her relationship with Ren is the center of the ST, it is hard for me to imagine that he would have anything to do with this. Maybe that something so bad between them is gonna happen that it would prevent romantic Reylo in the future. However, it doesn't seem like Rian intended  to go that road since he clearly said in VF that he would have loved to portray a romance. So if Reylo ain't gonna to happen at some point in the trilogy, what would be the point to make Rey emotionally hurt in regard to Kylo and saying something so ambiguous in VF like "Well, you'll have to see" about characters getting romantically involved in TLJ Question

EDIT: I'll just add that I am certain of anything else than dramatic ending and separation in TLJ. So it's only an assumption but I don't believe in the scenario of the nice bright-looking girl getting emotionally hurt because she got blinded by her compassion for the dark-moody guy who finally end up betraying her hopes like the worst a** on earth. We already got more or less that scenario in TFA with Han Solo's death, right? Wink


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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by vaderito on Fri 30 Jun - 1:40

[dp


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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by IoJovi on Fri 30 Jun - 1:41

Maybe I'm throwing myself in front of a bus by saying this, and this is my own personal opinion so please don't take it the wrong way, but the doom and gloom these days is a bit much.  I didn't find anything condescending in @AceofWands 's wording choices because I feel the same way.  We had such a fantastic year last year that by the end, there wasn't literally anything that was going to shake my interpretation of TFA, and so far, I haven't seen anything to indicate the writers have detoured from the path they've chosen.  I've been of the mindset that we're on the winning team, and that's what made this fandom so much fun for me.  We started out as the underdog, and wound up on top.  Good news would come our way week after week.

As far as not posting pro-romantic Reylo posts in this thread, I'm going to disagree with that.  This is a very interesting thread at its heart, and I'm glad it was posted.  It's an intriguing read because it reinforces that non-romantic/platonic Reylo doesn't just have the punch or the satisfaction in this type of epic story.  It doesn't hold water at all, which is why I don't believe in it, and I doubt the GA would buy it either.  Let's face it, most of them came out of TFA thinking Reywalker, and if they don't get that, they're going to wonder how Rey fits into all of this.  If she somehow fixes the family and moves on, it isn't going to cut it at all, and people will still be wondering what a non-skywalker has to do with this story besides being a super human with Force powers that can repair anything that's broken.

As far as the marketing goes (which yes, VF most definitely falls into), I told myself I wasn't going to buy into any red herrings they might throw our way and I'm so very grateful I made that pact with myself.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Darth_Awakened on Fri 30 Jun - 1:51

I think that the main problem with this thread is that we're completely clueless (not only Reylo part of fandom but SW fandom as a whole) what's mysterious connection could possible mean.

Every SW fan is well aware that one of the main trade marks of SW is not being plain good vs. evil, but so far, every duel between darksider and a light side has been heavily based on the emotional conflict between the two.

So, yes if they're going to stick to the rule of the emotional conflict being the main motivation, it's  hard to find that kind of thing between Rey and Kylo at this point, if you don't think Rey is related and if you drop off some kind of affection between the two.

EDIT: I just want to say if I was harsh in previous posts, I wish to apologize to everyone
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by WhatGirl on Fri 30 Jun - 2:00

@IoJovi wrote:Maybe I'm throwing myself in front of a bus by saying this, and this is my own personal opinion so please don't take it the wrong way, but the doom and gloom these days is a bit much.  I didn't find anything condescending in @AceofWands 's wording choices because I feel the same way.  We had such a fantastic year last year that by the end, there wasn't literally anything that was going to shake my interpretation of TFA, and so far, I haven't seen anything to indicate the writers have detoured from the path they've chosen.  I've been of the mindset that we're on the winning team, and that's what made this fandom so much fun for me.  We started out as the underdog, and wound up on top.  Good news would come our way week after week.

As far as not posting pro-romantic Reylo posts in this thread, I'm going to disagree with that.  This is a very interesting thread at its heart, and I'm glad it was posted.  It's an intriguing read because it reinforces that non-romantic/platonic Reylo doesn't just have the punch or the satisfaction in this type of epic story.  It doesn't hold water at all, which is why I don't believe in it, and I doubt the GA would buy it either.  Let's face it, most of them came out of TFA thinking Reywalker, and if they don't get that, they're going to wonder how Rey fits into all of this.  If she somehow fixes the family and moves on, it isn't going to cut it at all, and people will still be wondering what a non-skywalker has to do with this story besides being a super human with Force powers that can repair anything that's broken.

As far as the marketing goes (which yes, VF most definitely falls into), I told myself I wasn't going to buy into any red herrings they might throw our way and I'm so very grateful I made that pact with myself.
@IoJovi

We might not have come up with a compelling reason yet because, aside from the topic being quite young, we are Reylos who have viewed and analyzed the film from an angle of romance for the past year and a half. Personally I suspect the connection might very well come down to Rey's lineage since that too is being kept a secret. I think she is tied to the Skywalkers in a way that completely overshadows a mere blood relation, such as her family being directly connected to Ben's fall to the dark side.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Helix on Fri 30 Jun - 2:02

I get that the gloom and doom can be a bit much, but there's only two threads that cater mostly to non-romance Reylo discussion. This and fan fatigue. No one in this thread has been posting this negative stuff in other threads recently and I'm not saying anyone accused them of that. Like I don't even doubt it myself, I'm still all for romantic Reylo. I just think they are valid in their perspectives. We all are.

I think saying someone's perspective is wrong ( or even the implication of it, trying to be helpful or not ) can be off-putting. Especially if it's subjective. Not saying you can't say that, but there's certain ways of doing it.

tl;dr we all have rights to our opinions on this, but we should handle them with care and not upset the other party. Not saying anyone has been a rude MONSTAH or anything, but on the net it's easy to read things as harmful when they really aren't. Being right or wrong isn't important, to me, it's more so considering how someone feels. Like I don't think Bastila felt good when her posts were being misinterpreted and it might have felt like her voice was being stifled, even if people didn't mean it that way. That's all.


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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by IoJovi on Fri 30 Jun - 2:09

@WhatGirl wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:Maybe I'm throwing myself in front of a bus by saying this, and this is my own personal opinion so please don't take it the wrong way, but the doom and gloom these days is a bit much.  I didn't find anything condescending in @AceofWands 's wording choices because I feel the same way.  We had such a fantastic year last year that by the end, there wasn't literally anything that was going to shake my interpretation of TFA, and so far, I haven't seen anything to indicate the writers have detoured from the path they've chosen.  I've been of the mindset that we're on the winning team, and that's what made this fandom so much fun for me.  We started out as the underdog, and wound up on top.  Good news would come our way week after week.

As far as not posting pro-romantic Reylo posts in this thread, I'm going to disagree with that.  This is a very interesting thread at its heart, and I'm glad it was posted.  It's an intriguing read because it reinforces that non-romantic/platonic Reylo doesn't just have the punch or the satisfaction in this type of epic story.  It doesn't hold water at all, which is why I don't believe in it, and I doubt the GA would buy it either.  Let's face it, most of them came out of TFA thinking Reywalker, and if they don't get that, they're going to wonder how Rey fits into all of this.  If she somehow fixes the family and moves on, it isn't going to cut it at all, and people will still be wondering what a non-skywalker has to do with this story besides being a super human with Force powers that can repair anything that's broken.

As far as the marketing goes (which yes, VF most definitely falls into), I told myself I wasn't going to buy into any red herrings they might throw our way and I'm so very grateful I made that pact with myself.
@IoJovi

We might not have come up with a compelling reason yet because, aside from the topic being quite young, we are Reylos who have viewed and analyzed the film from an angle of romance for the past year and a half. Personally I suspect the connection might very well come down to Rey's lineage since that too is being kept a secret. I think she is tied to the Skywalkers in a way that completely overshadows a mere blood relation, such as her family being directly connected to Ben's fall to the dark side.
@WhatGirl

That could be true, but even it that case if you remove the angle of eventual romance if she is indeed not blood related, it still falls flat. People want a relationship that they've all experienced and can relate to. There has to be more to it than "my family messed up your family and I feel guilty for it so here's some help." Does that make sense?
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Helix on Fri 30 Jun - 2:16

My last post about this specific detail, but I think it's important to remember there's a person on the other side of these screens. While we can get heated in debates and what not, it's always important to note that other people's feelings are more important than being wrong or right about fiction. Even if you don't mean it, it can feel bad to have things take like that and misinterpreted. I know no one wanted to make her feel bad, but it's a tough job to correctly convey things through the internet. Sometimes those response can make someone not want to continue interacting and I don't think losing people here is worth it to be right, etc.

Like I said, not calling people out or saying anyone meant to be mean. It's just important to consider feelings when debating and chatting.

I sound like a flower child hippy, I know.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by AceofWands on Fri 30 Jun - 2:17

Ok, shift the mood a little.

I know a way that force buddies could work.

Rey Kenobi!

Frankly, I don't believe in the theory because Obi-Wan wasn't introduced in the ST and because all we have so far are parallels and lots of characters have parallels.

However, if Rey and Kylo are to be reversed Obikin, it works in a non romantic way.
It would explain why Rey is not related, and would sort of fix Obi-Wan and Anakin's mistakes.

Kylo would have to survive, and Rey would not have a romance. It's kind of a meh plot, but makes sense as a plot.

So that's my non romantic Reylo theory that doesn't include Reywalker or Rey Solo.

The problem is that it would not be satisfying for the people who only got into SW now, because Obi-Wan is not introduced or presented in any way, unlike Anakin in the OT, for example. That's the reason I don't really believe in Rey Kenobi.

Still, that's the best I can come up in terms of non romantic story.

Ang guys, really, if you disagree with what I write, please reply with arguments. That would be a lot cooler.

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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Fri 30 Jun - 2:21

@Darth_Awakened wrote:I think that the main problem with this thread is that we're completely clueless (not only Reylo part of fandom but SW fandom as a whole) what's mysterious connection could possible mean.

Every SW fan is well aware that one of the main trade marks of SW is not being plain good vs. evil, but so far, every duel between darksider and a light side has been heavily based on the emotional conflict between the two.

So, yes if they're going to stick to the rule of the emotional conflict being the main motivation, it's  hard to find that kind of thing between Rey and Kylo at this point, if you don't think Rey is related and if you drop off some kind of affection between the two.

EDIT: I just want to say if I was harsh in previous posts, I wish to apologize to everyone
@Darth_Awakened

I've long thought that the "mysterious connection" is likely to turn out to be some sort of prophesied keymaster/gatekeeper type relationship, where together, they're both needed for something to do with the Force. That type of connection isn't inherently romantic, and they could just leave it as that, and a lot of what we saw in TFA would still make sense. (e.g. The surface-level reading of the interest that Kylo has in Rey, the edited out "it is you", him getting sidetracked while probing her mind...assuming that Kylo had some suspicion that Rey was his "Force missing half", so to speak.)

Given the elevator eyes from both of them, the subtext in the interrogation scene, the fact that they cast a young, hot male actor for Kylo and a young, hot female actress for Rey, you'll never convince me that romantic Reylo wasn't the original plan. But if they backed off from that for whatever reason, the PR response will be "it was always about light and dark working together" or something like that.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Helix on Fri 30 Jun - 2:25

Imagine if everything was the same, but Kylo was played by Steve Buscemi. Too much sexual tension, there's no way it wouldn't be romantic.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Darth_Awakened on Fri 30 Jun - 2:31

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Darth_Awakened wrote:I think that the main problem with this thread is that we're completely clueless (not only Reylo part of fandom but SW fandom as a whole) what's mysterious connection could possible mean.

Every SW fan is well aware that one of the main trade marks of SW is not being plain good vs. evil, but so far, every duel between darksider and a light side has been heavily based on the emotional conflict between the two.

So, yes if they're going to stick to the rule of the emotional conflict being the main motivation, it's  hard to find that kind of thing between Rey and Kylo at this point, if you don't think Rey is related and if you drop off some kind of affection between the two.

EDIT: I just want to say if I was harsh in previous posts, I wish to apologize to everyone
@Darth_Awakened

I've long thought that the "mysterious connection" is likely to turn out to be some sort of prophesied keymaster/gatekeeper type relationship, where together, they're both needed for something to do with the Force. That type of connection isn't inherently romantic, and they could just leave it as that, and a lot of what we saw in TFA would still make sense. (e.g. The surface-level reading of the interest that Kylo has in Rey, the edited out "it is you", him getting sidetracked while probing her mind...assuming that Kylo had some suspicion that Rey was his "Force missing half", so to speak.)

Given the elevator eyes from both of them, the subtext in the interrogation scene, the fact that they cast a young, hot male actor for Kylo and a young, hot female actress for Rey, you'll never convince me that romantic Reylo wasn't the original plan. But if they backed off from that for whatever reason, the PR response will be "it was always about light and dark working together" or something like that.
@ISeeAnIsland

I guess it could work as a story.
However I'am an addict to emotional drama in SW, and I'll be pretty much sad without it. But life will go on..

On the note what I saw in TFA: I'am 100% of what I saw. And having in mind, I'am not the person who randomly pay attention to romantic stuff in the movies, I'am confident of what I saw.
Of course, as you're saying it doesn't have to be the end game.

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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by reylo1992 on Fri 30 Jun - 2:31

@IoJovi wrote:
@WhatGirl wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:Maybe I'm throwing myself in front of a bus by saying this, and this is my own personal opinion so please don't take it the wrong way, but the doom and gloom these days is a bit much.  I didn't find anything condescending in @AceofWands 's wording choices because I feel the same way.  We had such a fantastic year last year that by the end, there wasn't literally anything that was going to shake my interpretation of TFA, and so far, I haven't seen anything to indicate the writers have detoured from the path they've chosen.  I've been of the mindset that we're on the winning team, and that's what made this fandom so much fun for me.  We started out as the underdog, and wound up on top.  Good news would come our way week after week.

As far as not posting pro-romantic Reylo posts in this thread, I'm going to disagree with that.  This is a very interesting thread at its heart, and I'm glad it was posted.  It's an intriguing read because it reinforces that non-romantic/platonic Reylo doesn't just have the punch or the satisfaction in this type of epic story.  It doesn't hold water at all, which is why I don't believe in it, and I doubt the GA would buy it either.  Let's face it, most of them came out of TFA thinking Reywalker, and if they don't get that, they're going to wonder how Rey fits into all of this.  If she somehow fixes the family and moves on, it isn't going to cut it at all, and people will still be wondering what a non-skywalker has to do with this story besides being a super human with Force powers that can repair anything that's broken.

As far as the marketing goes (which yes, VF most definitely falls into), I told myself I wasn't going to buy into any red herrings they might throw our way and I'm so very grateful I made that pact with myself.  
@IoJovi

We might not have come up with a compelling reason yet because, aside from the topic being quite young, we are Reylos who have viewed and analyzed the film from an angle of romance for the past year and a half. Personally I suspect the connection might very well come down to Rey's lineage since that too is being kept a secret. I think she is tied to the Skywalkers in a way that completely overshadows a mere blood relation, such as her family being directly connected to Ben's fall to the dark side.
@WhatGirl

That could be true, but even it that case if you remove the angle of eventual romance if she is indeed not blood related, it still falls flat.  People want a relationship that they've all experienced and can relate to.  There has to be more to it than "my family messed up your family and I feel guilty for it so here's some help."  Does that make sense?  
@IoJovi

I agree with you. You know, I think you all gonna getting tired of my callbacks to the same references but if you look at Scarlet Heart Ryeo, Hae Soo keeps saying that she sees Wang So only as someone she cares and wants to help. Sure, honey!  bounce

She even tells him repeatedly that she only wants to help him and never asked for his heart. She tells him that he's certainly confusing friendship and love. She tells him that he shall learn to differentiate friendship and love. So why Wang So keeps trying so hard to get romantically involved with her despite her refusals? Is it because this guy is an assaulter or just a stupid dud who falsely believes he can change her feelings for him? Because deep inside him he knows Hae Soo's true feeling for him or how it could evolve if she would stop denying it. Most of the time, her eyes and her reaction to his physical closeness betrays her feelings  although she keeps denying it. This leads me to Kylo Ren's behavior to Rey. We know from the TFA that when he felt her embarassment while mentioning she is a scavenger, he immediately changes the subject. So my assumption is that if Ren had felt that Rey was rejecting completely their connection and his closenes, he wouldn't have come that close to her physically and mentally :
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Fri 30 Jun - 2:34

@Helix wrote:Imagine if everything was the same, but Kylo was played by Steve Buscemi. Too much sexual tension, there's no way it wouldn't be romantic.
@Helix

You make my point better than I did. Wink

If they had intended non-Reylated, non-romantic Reylo from the start, they could have gone a much different way with casting. Either make Kylo older (although then I guess he couldn't have been Ben Solo, age-wise), already have him horrifically scarred, or just generally make him unattractive.

With Rey, they could have gone with a less attractive female (all of the actresses who made it well into the audition process for Rey are quite beautiful, and my understanding is that one of the notes in the casting for the role was "must be beautiful"), or heck, make her underage--like 15 or 16. Actually, making Rey underage while Kylo is still ~30 could have set up an interesting mentor/mentee dynamic, assuming that they don't remain enemies.

Or, heck, I loved the dynamic between Mattie and LeBoeuf in True Grit. The True Grit dynamic actually could have worked really well, given that LeBoeuf does give off a bit of an "interested" vibe around the oblivious Mattie, but the movie also clearly wasn't going to "go there" with a 14-year-old in current times.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by AceofWands on Fri 30 Jun - 2:34

@Helix wrote:

Who says it needs to stay on genre? You don't own SW and you're not in control, they can go off genre if they want.

They don't 'owe' us anything, Hollywood is an entertainment corporation. It's a business at the heart.
@Helix

And that's why they can't throw billions of dollars away. Fiction, and movies are about the audience trusting the creators enough to let themselves be involved emotionally in the story. If the audience doesn't trust the creators, they shut off, and the emotional journey is gone. Scriptwriters know that and study that. Sticking to the genre and fulfilling expectations is part of the deal.

As a business, it needs to do things right. You can't serve pasta in a McDonald's franchise. Sorry. Nothing against pasta, but it's not what people expect when walking into a McDonalds. If they want to stay in business, and keep growing, they need to be consistent with their brand. That goes for any business.

So yes, LF needs to stick to the genre, or else it's not SW and it would mean that Disney threw money down the drain, which is unlikely. When I say that it's either Reylated or Reylo, it's not because I'm demanding it, or because I feel that I'm entitled to it. It's because I know the genre enough to know that those are the two only satisfying plots for the ST.

I know that creating and managing expectations is the role of the scriptwriters and I can dig up material to support my claim. I think the idea is simply wrong.

If you can dig up material supporting the fact that LF can do whatever they want and still be all right, by all means do it.

If anyone can analyse the VF article and the aftermath and provide solid arguments as to why it means that there won't be any romance or that it in any ways dismisses romantic Reylo, I'm all ears. I haven't seen that yet.

Also, I just disagreed with someone's opinions, and my post about gaslighting was not directed at anyone. I'm sorry it seemed that way. You write that we must remember that there's a person behind the screen, but I haven't seen any kindness or understanding or even any engagement in debate. This is a discussion board and different ideas and opinions should be welcomed.

Yes, I still think the whole "I actually think there won't be any romantic Reylo" is falling prey to gaslighting and I won't change my mind unless someone can give me solid arguments as to why they think that.


Last edited by AceofWands on Fri 30 Jun - 2:38; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by IoJovi on Fri 30 Jun - 2:37

@Helix wrote:Imagine if everything was the same, but Kylo was played by Steve Buscemi. Too much sexual tension, there's no way it wouldn't be romantic.
@Helix

Post of the day. Bravo!!! cheers

But seriously - why make Adam Driver, who is already a good looking guy by all definitions, look like an absolute god among men as Kylo Ren, have him stare at Rey with those eyes of his like she's the only pool of water in the entire desert, and not go anywhere with it?
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Kessel on Fri 30 Jun - 2:43

Hypothetically, Rey and Kylo don't have to a profound emotional connection for the story to work, but the story will suffer for it. The only viable mysterious connection with no emotional weight  I can think of is a stark contrast between entitlement and merit where Rey and Kylo are pure adversarial opposites, representing the light (good) and dark (bad). Basically, an anti's dream scenario (after Reywalker), lol- Rey takes Ben Solo's place because she's more worthy Rolling Eyes, however, this scenario doesn't sound like something you'd see in SW and all the characters would have to be pretty one-dimensional; Rey would be all good and Kylo would have to cease being conflicted or sympathetic, or else it doesn't really work.

Which is my long winded way of saying, even though i don't think romance is a sure thing, I still think it's far more likely the mysterious connection will lead to some kind of understanding and/or alliance. Some kind of strong emotional bond between Rey and Kylo makes the most sense for the story, even without romance. There are several possible non-romantic scenarios and they don't necessarily cancel out the possibility of future romance. I know we've discussed them before such as Rey and Kylo being chosen by the Force for an important task or a strange prophesy involving Rey, or twist of fate where Kylo took Rey's place.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by SanghaRen on Fri 30 Jun - 2:47

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Darth_Awakened wrote:I think that the main problem with this thread is that we're completely clueless (not only Reylo part of fandom but SW fandom as a whole) what's mysterious connection could possible mean.

Every SW fan is well aware that one of the main trade marks of SW is not being plain good vs. evil, but so far, every duel between darksider and a light side has been heavily based on the emotional conflict between the two.

So, yes if they're going to stick to the rule of the emotional conflict being the main motivation, it's  hard to find that kind of thing between Rey and Kylo at this point, if you don't think Rey is related and if you drop off some kind of affection between the two.

EDIT: I just want to say if I was harsh in previous posts, I wish to apologize to everyone
@Darth_Awakened

I've long thought that the "mysterious connection" is likely to turn out to be some sort of prophesied keymaster/gatekeeper type relationship, where together, they're both needed for something to do with the Force.  That type of connection isn't inherently romantic, and they could just leave it as that, and a lot of what we saw in TFA would still make sense. (e.g. The surface-level reading of the interest that Kylo has in Rey, the edited out "it is you", him getting sidetracked while probing her mind...assuming that Kylo had some suspicion that Rey was his "Force missing half", so to speak.)

Given the elevator eyes from both of them, the subtext in the interrogation scene, the fact that they cast a young, hot male actor for Kylo and a young, hot female actress for Rey, you'll never convince me that romantic Reylo wasn't the original plan. But if they backed off from that for whatever reason, the PR response will be "it was always about light and dark working together" or something like that.
@ISeeAnIsland

I am with you on this one. I mean the keymaster / gatekeeper thing. I really think Rey is the key to something and will help this generation's Skywalker to restore balance but in a more realistic way and not the naive way of the OT that led JJ and LK to have to destroy the childish ending of the OT to start this new trilogy. Interwined destinies only means that you have to accomplish something together, not that you spend your life together. I could see a "what if" hang there until the next trilogy with endless battles in the fandom and the excruciating question of who will give birth to the next Skywalker generation Smile
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Darth_Awakened on Fri 30 Jun - 2:48

@Kessel wrote:Hypothetically, Rey and Kylo don't have to a profound emotional connection for the story to work, but the story will suffer for it. The only viable mysterious connection with no emotional weight  I can think of is a stark contrast between entitlement and merit where Rey and Kylo are pure adversarial opposites, representing the light (good) and dark (bad). Basically, an anti's dream scenario (after Reywalker), lol- Rey takes Ben Solo's place because she's more worthy Rolling Eyes, however, this scenario doesn't sound like something you'd see in SW and all the characters would have to be pretty one-dimensional; Rey would be all good and Kylo would have to cease being conflicted or sympathetic, or else it doesn't really work.

Which is my long winded way of saying, even though i don't think romance is a sure thing, I still think it's far more likely the mysterious connection will lead to some kind of understanding and/or alliance. Some kind of strong emotional bond between Rey and Kylo makes the most sense for the story, even without romance. There are several possible non-romantic scenarios and they don't necessarily cancel out the possibility of future romance. I know we've discussed them before such as Rey and Kylo being chosen by the Force for an important task or a strange prophesy involving Rey, or twist of fate where Kylo took Rey's place.
@Kessel

That's what I'am trying to say all along. Thank you.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Fri 30 Jun - 2:48

@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Darth_Awakened wrote:I think that the main problem with this thread is that we're completely clueless (not only Reylo part of fandom but SW fandom as a whole) what's mysterious connection could possible mean.

Every SW fan is well aware that one of the main trade marks of SW is not being plain good vs. evil, but so far, every duel between darksider and a light side has been heavily based on the emotional conflict between the two.

So, yes if they're going to stick to the rule of the emotional conflict being the main motivation, it's  hard to find that kind of thing between Rey and Kylo at this point, if you don't think Rey is related and if you drop off some kind of affection between the two.

EDIT: I just want to say if I was harsh in previous posts, I wish to apologize to everyone
@Darth_Awakened

I've long thought that the "mysterious connection" is likely to turn out to be some sort of prophesied keymaster/gatekeeper type relationship, where together, they're both needed for something to do with the Force. That type of connection isn't inherently romantic, and they could just leave it as that, and a lot of what we saw in TFA would still make sense. (e.g. The surface-level reading of the interest that Kylo has in Rey, the edited out "it is you", him getting sidetracked while probing her mind...assuming that Kylo had some suspicion that Rey was his "Force missing half", so to speak.)

Given the elevator eyes from both of them, the subtext in the interrogation scene, the fact that they cast a young, hot male actor for Kylo and a young, hot female actress for Rey, you'll never convince me that romantic Reylo wasn't the original plan. But if they backed off from that for whatever reason, the PR response will be "it was always about light and dark working together" or something like that.
@ISeeAnIsland

I guess it could work as a story.
However I'am an addict to emotional drama in SW, and I'll be pretty much sad without it. But life will go on..

On the note what I saw in TFA: I'am 100% of what I saw. And having in mind, I'am not the person who randomly pay attention to romantic stuff in the movies, I'am confident of what I saw.
Of course, as you're saying it doesn't have to be the end game.

@Darth_Awakened

Well, hey, I never said that the story that I proposed would actually be satisfying.

In fact, if they don't go with some sort of romantic arc for Reylo (assuming that she's not Reylated in some weird way we haven't thought of), I don't expect to personally find the story arc satisfying.

But hey, the "pew pew pew" crowd that loved Rogue One so much won't care.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Maria Antonietta on Fri 30 Jun - 2:51

@IoJovi wrote:
@Helix wrote:Imagine if everything was the same, but Kylo was played by Steve Buscemi. Too much sexual tension, there's no way it wouldn't be romantic.
@Helix

Post of the day. Bravo!!! cheers

But seriously - why make Adam Driver, who is already a good looking guy by all definitions, look like an absolute god among men as Kylo Ren, have him stare at Rey with those eyes of his like she's the only pool of water in the entire desert, and not go anywhere with it?
@IoJovi


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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Darth_Awakened on Fri 30 Jun - 2:52

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Darth_Awakened wrote:I think that the main problem with this thread is that we're completely clueless (not only Reylo part of fandom but SW fandom as a whole) what's mysterious connection could possible mean.

Every SW fan is well aware that one of the main trade marks of SW is not being plain good vs. evil, but so far, every duel between darksider and a light side has been heavily based on the emotional conflict between the two.

So, yes if they're going to stick to the rule of the emotional conflict being the main motivation, it's  hard to find that kind of thing between Rey and Kylo at this point, if you don't think Rey is related and if you drop off some kind of affection between the two.

EDIT: I just want to say if I was harsh in previous posts, I wish to apologize to everyone
@Darth_Awakened

I've long thought that the "mysterious connection" is likely to turn out to be some sort of prophesied keymaster/gatekeeper type relationship, where together, they're both needed for something to do with the Force. That type of connection isn't inherently romantic, and they could just leave it as that, and a lot of what we saw in TFA would still make sense. (e.g. The surface-level reading of the interest that Kylo has in Rey, the edited out "it is you", him getting sidetracked while probing her mind...assuming that Kylo had some suspicion that Rey was his "Force missing half", so to speak.)

Given the elevator eyes from both of them, the subtext in the interrogation scene, the fact that they cast a young, hot male actor for Kylo and a young, hot female actress for Rey, you'll never convince me that romantic Reylo wasn't the original plan. But if they backed off from that for whatever reason, the PR response will be "it was always about light and dark working together" or something like that.
@ISeeAnIsland

I guess it could work as a story.
However I'am an addict to emotional drama in SW, and I'll be pretty much sad without it. But life will go on..

On the note what I saw in TFA: I'am 100% of what I saw. And having in mind, I'am not the person who randomly pay attention to romantic stuff in the movies, I'am confident of what I saw.
Of course, as you're saying it doesn't have to be the end game.

@Darth_Awakened

Well, hey, I never said that the story that I proposed would actually be satisfying.

In fact, if they don't go with some sort of romantic arc for Reylo (assuming that she's not Reylated in some weird way we haven't thought of), I don't expect to personally find the story arc satisfying.

But hey, the "pew pew pew" crowd that loved Rogue One so much won't care.
@ISeeAnIsland

Nooooooo. I didn't even imply that you would.

It's definitely my day of being misunderstood. LOL

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