The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Helix on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 9:10 am

SW without romance feels kinda...sterile and bleached clean. Not that every SW story needs romance, but if they just keep pulling away from it in everything because romance is 'icky' then they're alienating an audience and sterilizing the world. The thing about SW is all the interesting character dynamics in this fantastical world and if you cut a part out in almost every piece of media... well it doesn't feel the same.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Darth_Awakened on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 9:13 am

Reylo or no-Reylo my opinion is still strong that marketing can not tells us if Rey would have love interest or in which direction her story arc would go.
Nobody promoted Darth Vader as Luke's father before ESB.
The supplement materials (Rebels, Force of Destiny are not good examples - they're intended to much younger audience). I love them both, but I know I won't see Leia and Han kissing in any of those.

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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Mana on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 9:13 am

I don't know....
Its not like they can say any more than 'destinies intertwined' and 'mysterious connection' without spoiling the endgame of the trilogy...
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by IoJovi on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 9:14 am

@Helix wrote:SW without romance feels kinda...sterile and bleached clean. Not that every SW story needs romance, but if they just keep pulling away from it in  everything because romance is 'icky' then they're alienating an audience and sterilizing the world. The thing about SW is all the interesting character dynamics in this fantastical world and if you cut a part out in almost every piece of media... well it doesn't feel the same.
@Helix

And this is why I'm not buying that there isn't any romance.  It's a space opera revolving around a single family.  Family is at the heart of soap operas, and this one set in space is no different.  So tell me again how the one legacy Skywalker child fits into all of this.  Because if there's no romance, even understated, I'm having a hard time with it.

@Mana Exactly. I never expected Reylo to be included in the marketing, so why it's such a big deal now that it isn't is perplexing.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 9:26 am

Well, I suppose they could avoid the "good girl reforms a bad boy" trap by establishing him on the right path before developing their "mysterious connection" further.

But yeah, there's no way to say there's no romance at this point, IMO. I can't imagine this being Phantom of the Opera in space, nor any other kind of dark, Gothic romance, so any budding romance is kind of dependent on Kylo becoming worthy* of that in the audience's eyes. And if he "becomes worthy" in TLJ, that's the biggest spoiler of all.

*) Although that does go back to "deserving" her love, which isn't really the heart of romance and romantic fantasies and how they work. But you do need the audience on board, and at this point a large part of the audience hate his guts. You've got to give the audience something to root for.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Helix on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 9:34 am

That's why I kinda hope if they leave Kylo somewhere ambiguous at the end of TLJ, we can get some novels between then and EP 9 to help flesh him out and guide him along that path. I doubt it with the Ye Old Accursed Mystery Box, but it would be nice. Help cement his changes for the better.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 9:38 am

I will add, though, that I think there's a lot of disagreement even in the Reylo community at large about what Reylo even is, because TFA did play with dark, Gothic tropes. If you were the write a romance based purely on TFA and without any forward-thinking conjecture, it would be a dark romance. For this same reason, I think, so many people resistant to Reylo based on TFA.

They see a black-clad monstrous villain abducting an innocent maiden, and they can imagine only one way such a romance can go: Gothic, dark, angsty, Hades and Persephone, vampires and other lascivious monsters, dark temptation, violence = sex, all that jazz. If you look just at the imagery of the interrogation scene, it's easy to tell where the dumb Fifty Shades comparisons come from, because the black-clad villain tying up the innocent maiden in a torture chamber suggests more BDSM than an innocent fairytale. But what puzzles me is why people stop there when TFA gives us so much more than that, and the snow fight is actually the true measure of the Reylo dynamic.

But, yeah. Everything depends on Kylo's character development in TLJ, and how the audience and Rey are both made to see that.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Guest on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 9:41 am

None of this is about the lack of Reylo marketing for me, as I never truly expected that to happen either. It is more about the ethos within Lucasfilm which I've come to understand through being involved with this fandom. I have loved Star Wars movies since the first one back in '77 but I never got fully immersed in the supplementary material or the EU. I hadn't seen stuff like The Clone Wars or Rebels or read any of the canon books/comics. I viewed the movies in isolation and that's how I came to TFA. However, since then I've come to a different understanding. Lucasfilm are taking a more coordinated approach these days, especially where the movies are concerned. This is why I think the material we are seeing coming out and the image they are building of Rey now is important and will inform what's to come in the future.

Anyway, I am not ruling romantic Reylo out, I certainly want it to happen. I'm just struggling to reconcile my personal desire with how I see Lucasfilm approaching this story. Also, I can't think of one canon romance in recent times that didn't end tragically.

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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Helix on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 9:45 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:I will add, though, that I think there's a lot of disagreement even in the Reylo community at large about what Reylo even is, because TFA did play with dark, Gothic tropes. If you were the write a romance based purely on TFA and without any forward-thinking conjecture, it would be a dark romance. For this same reason, I think, so many people resistant to Reylo based on TFA.

They see a black-clad monstrous villain abducting an innocent maiden, and they can imagine only one way such a romance can go: Gothic, dark, angsty, Hades and Persephone, vampires and other lascivious monsters, dark temptation, violence = sex, all that jazz. If you look just at the imagery of the interrogation scene, it's easy to tell where the dumb Fifty Shades comparisons come from, because the black-clad villain tying up the innocent maiden in a torture chamber suggests more BDSM than an innocent fairytale. But what puzzles me is why people stop there when TFA gives us so much more than that, and the snow fight is actually the true measure of the Reylo dynamic.

But, yeah. Everything depends on Kylo's character development in TLJ, and how the audience and Rey are both made to see that.
@Darth Dingbat

Lego TFA had even more BDSM with Kylo. He was moments away from a 'Hurt me more! More!' ala Gray Fox in MGS1. Laughing

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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 10:19 am

Perhaps Lucasfilm's strategy is to make people starved for romance Razz To get them from "no romance, how refreshing!" to "WTF, when I said 'how refreshing' I didn't mean I don't want any romance ever again!!"
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Helix on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 10:23 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:Perhaps Lucasfilm's strategy is to make people starved for romance Razz To get them from "no romance, how refreshing!" to "WTF, when I said 'how refreshing' I didn't mean I don't want any romance ever again!!"
@Darth Dingbat

Probably won't work on all of the fanboys since I don't think some of them have ever had any romantic interactions in their lives. Razz
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by SkyStar on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 10:27 am

LOL all of this just reminds me of Mr Plinkett's review in RedLetterMedia in where is the seeex???
And that cheery music where there is only friendship and everybody just hug Very Happy
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by MeadowofAshes on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 10:30 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:Perhaps Lucasfilm's strategy is to make people starved for romance Razz To get them from "no romance, how refreshing!" to "WTF, when I said 'how refreshing' I didn't mean I don't want any romance ever again!!"
@Darth Dingbat

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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Helix on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 10:31 am

@SkyStar wrote:LOL all of this just reminds me of Mr Plinkett's review in RedLetterMedia in where is the seeex???
And that cheery music where there is only friendship and everybody just hug Very Happy
@SkyStar

Maybe hugs are the new sex? So Rey had Finn...and Leia... You know what, never mind. Laughing
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by SkyStar on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 10:42 am

@Helix wrote:
@SkyStar wrote:LOL all of this just reminds me of Mr Plinkett's review in RedLetterMedia in where is the seeex???
And that cheery music where there is only friendship and everybody just hug Very Happy
@SkyStar

Maybe hugs are the new sex? So Rey had Finn...and Leia... You know what, never mind. Laughing
@Helix

Yeah, maybe that is why Leia don't hug Chewie the second time
Because, Han just died, cmooon
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by snufkin on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 11:08 am

I'm confused, I thought that this was the topic for exploring the possible routes for how the central relationship that these two characters are going to have (intertwined destinies, two trains colliding) will unfold without it being romantic. Like all the different possibilities, such as having to work together to bring the balance of the Force, larger purpose with the Balance and making things right. Those theories are interesting and even in terms of English, the word Romantic means more than just smooching. But reading the past page or so, this is more like a huge buzzkill of getting pre-emptively depressed over something that hasn't even happened yet.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Guest on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 11:21 am

I'm not depressed about it. I did explain a few pages back how I foresee Rey and Kylo having a similar relationship to Buffy and Spike minus the sex. It wouldn't be as satisfying to me as a romantic relationship, but if it's done right it could be very effective and has the elements of a knight and his lady as detailed in that Tumblr post.

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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by reylo1992 on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 11:27 am

I would add to all of this that we still have good reasons remain confident in the possibility of romantic Reylo happening. Until now, nearly everything we thoughtabout Kylo and his dynamic with Rey was confirmed.
- Reylos pointed out many clues suggesting that Rey and Kylo's dynamic was central and potentially romantic? Well, J.J.Abrams's audio comments kinda confirmed our expectations
- Reylos anticipated that Kylo wouldn't become a one-dimensional villain, a sort of Vader n°2? Well, LF marketing confirmed our expectations pretty well.

Once again, I believe that LF know what they're doing even if their marketing strategy looks a little confusing and frustrating sometimes. Remember the pieces of arts that was commissioned for SW Celebration, especially this one:

I mean, Rian wasalready shooting the last Jedi when the pieces of art were commissioned for SW Celebration. I really ask myself what would lead the SW crew to display a piece of art with such romantic vibe if romantic Reylo wasn't canon anymore.

Now about the way they promote Rey in the marketing. Sure she looks extremely bad***, I might add less feminine than any other heroine I have ever seen. Still, I don't think that the way they promote her  alone represents some bad news for Reylo. I mean, the new books focus on Rey's journey, on Leia's childhood, on Luke's myth, on Finn and Rose's mission,etc...Kylo is the only important character from the individual posters (aside from Poe who has rather some secondary role anyway) to have no  book focusing on his backstory or journey. This is absolutely not surprising that Rey is promoted alone as the bad*** heroine since the SW crew  tries so hard  to hide Kylo anyway and to lock up their interactions.

Romantic Reylo may not happen in TLJ but it will hightly depend on Kylo's journey and fate in this movie. It is true that the SW crew is walking on thin ice regarding Reylo since they seem very eager to promote Rey as a role model for children. However, I don't understand why the GA wouldn't be as forgiving as the heroine is supposed to be according Carrie Fisher. I think that a great majority of the GA can understand that Reylo may happen if is done well. Now, it is clear that there will be always a part of the audience who won't like it. But after all, you can't satisfy everybody so the most important is to have a compelling story that makes sense and justify well the way the relationship evolves.  

Now, it is clear that we haven't so many scenario for Kylo that make romantic Reylo likely to happen:
1) If Kylo becomes a one-dimensional villain, Reylo won't work
2) If Kylo is still a tortured villain who ends up betraying/hurting Rey, Reylo won't work
3) If Kylo convinces Rey to come to the DS with him, Reylo will be considered as noxious ship
4) If Kylo manipulate Rey and gives her no choice but following him, Reylo will be considered as an abusive ship
5) If Kylo ends up with the Resistance like a sad and remorseful puppy, the audience will complain that he doesn't deserve forgiveness for his crimes, especially for the patricide
etc, etc...

It seems that we will get something close to the sad puppy scenario but IMO it wouldn't be enough to bring the audience to relate genuinely to him. Just complaining that you fucked up everything, joining the Resistance  and saving once the heroine froma threat wouldn't be enough to earn the forgiveness of the GA, the galaxy and the heroine herself - not to mention that he is accountable for the Slywalker/Vader bloody legacy.  That's why, I hope that Rian chose the saddest and the most tragical fate possible for Kylo in TLJ. Otherwise I don't see how you could bring the highest percentage of the audience to relate to him.

IMO, something must be done to change the way the audience sees him and the Skywalker in general. I mean, I talked with my brother today  and he told me once again: "Kylo is just a piece of jerk like Anakin, even worse than him because at least Vader was bad***. Anakin was already complaining about everything and Kylo Ren is just a whyny emo child who would throw everything in his room because his parents forbade him to go out". Hearing and reading so  many criticisms from my relatives and on forums, I really hope that Rian will reveal the audience some strong reasons for Kylo's behavior because he and the Skywalker in general would deserve better than being considered as failures.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 12:44 pm

I think that no romance between these two would be pretty anticlimactic. They've built up all of this tension between them, and Kylo's definitely being portrayed as the sexy, pouty, lost guy who could switch sides at any moment, lol. What are the other basic alternatives? Kylo dies or goes Sith. Kylo turns in to an ally who perhaps has some type of "bond" with Rey, but she fails to see his foxyness so they keep things "professional." I guess they could infuse a bit of romance with FinnRose, but that doesn't sound like it's going to be epic at all Neutral
What do nonReylos think is going to happen? I don't like to venture too far from here Laughing
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by panki on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 12:58 pm

Just to digress a little...the recent MSW rumors of Rose and Finn riding a falthier on one version of the movie poster with two other falthiers running along with them sounds like they're going for a romance novel cover look...combine that with those images of Rose looking soulful and the scene where she and Finn have the same look as the "co-workers" in RO and I'm pretty sure the romance will be a proper one, not the fluffy flirty one I initially thought. This could be a good thing or a bad thing for reylo.

On a separate note, there has only one canon romance I can think of with a happy ending...that is of Zare Leonis (a former imperial cadet) and his gf Merei (a member of the rebellion)...neither is force sensitive (but Zare's sister Dhara is force sensitive)....Zare, Merei and his sister escape the Empire and disappear in the Outer Rim. Interesting fact- Jason Fry wrote that series and now he will be writing TLJ. So if anyone can write about people from different sides of a fight having a romance sans tragedy, it would be him.

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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 1:14 pm

@panki wrote:Just to digress a little...the recent MSW rumors of Rose and Finn riding a falthier on one version of the movie poster with two other falthiers running along with them sounds like they're going for a romance novel cover look...combine that with those images of Rose looking soulful and the scene where she and Finn have the same look as the "co-workers" in RO and I'm pretty sure the romance will be a proper one, not the fluffy flirty one I initially thought. This could be a good thing or a bad thing for reylo.
@panki

That's very true. I don't know what it means for Reylo, but I do think FinnRose will be a proper romance and a weighty storyline in its own right. I said this in another thread the other day, but I'm pleasantly surprised that Finn and Rose's part of the story has been treated seriously in the marketing so far; not as fluff and humour. I'm sure there'll be some lighter moments because both actor are good at comedy and SW needs a bit of lightness, but so far they haven't been marketed as a comedy duo at all. We've seen serious moments from them, and Rose even with tears in her eyes. Aside from early info that almost made it sound like Rose is some kind of a fan following Finn around. The latest bits and pieces don't give that vibe at all, and the fact that she has a sister (who might or might not die) gives some extra emotional weight to her own story as well.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Saracene on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 5:33 pm

@SkyStar wrote:LOL all of this just reminds me of Mr Plinkett's review in RedLetterMedia in where is the seeex???
And that cheery music where there is only friendship and everybody just hug Very Happy
@SkyStar

Haha I remember that too. Mr Plinkett's real-life creator also had a problem with the lack of romance in Rogue One (he didn't think Jyn/Cassian thing at the end was earned). He was like, am I the only one who wants some love in my movies? Smile

As far as getting the audience on Kylo's side goes, I think that for a portion of the audience laying on sadness and puppy eyes alone won't be enough, they'd also need Kylo to do something very brave and bad***. I'm talking in very stereotypical terms here, but for the many male fans pity is really not the way to their hearts and they'll despise Kylo forever until he convincingly kicks a**.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by rey09 on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 5:55 pm

Rey and Kylo's "first time" was so heated and magnetic, cannot imagine how round 2 will go, especially with her hair down and his black cape  bounce
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Piper Maru on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 6:31 pm

@snufkin wrote:I'm confused, I thought that this was the topic for exploring the possible routes for how the central relationship that these two characters are going to have (intertwined destinies, two trains colliding) will unfold without it being romantic. Like all the different possibilities, such as having to work together to bring the balance of the Force, larger purpose with the Balance and making things right. Those theories are interesting and even in terms of English, the word Romantic means more than just smooching. But reading the past page or so, this is more like a huge buzzkill of getting pre-emptively depressed over something that hasn't even happened yet.
@snufkin

Thank you. The dynamic between Rey and Kylo already shows several elements of Romanticism. The association with nature (they always meet in forests, Kylo mentions oceans and islands in her mind) is one of them, which is inherently sensual and associated with sublime. All their interactions display raw emotion, another characteristic of romantic stories. There's also the little thing about "destinies intertwined", which goes back to the core of romance: someone out there who is your One and Only, someone whose fate is tied to yours and there's nothing you can do about it. It's been discussed to death, but even classic love/sexual tropes are used: bridal carry, death and the maiden, class difference, dark vs. light, dreaming of things to come, etc. So, honestly, kissing and living happily ever after would be a bonus, but it's not necessary.


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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by vaderito on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 7:29 pm

Finn and Rose are the romance of this movie. You can take that to the bank. They seem like a winning combo.

If Rey and Kylo don't become another romance, than that's the worst casting decision ever. Such insane chemistry, like, truly one of all time great, and scenes ripe to explore the romantic path further, for nothing? I don't buy it.

Also, it seems that Daisy was on the money with that podcast asking about TLJ romance, when she said that being in love with your friends is also romance, that it covers many basis. Considering that marketing of those books is pushing for Beautiful Friendship between Rey and Finn, Rose, Poe, BB8, Chewie, I guess that's what's going on on Rey's side. Finn's side will "give birth to new things" during his mission with Rose.

I guess we just have to be patient. Kylo has Byronic scar as opposed to villain one so that's something. Oh, and a Byronic cape.
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