The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by IoJovi on June 8th 2017, 9:39 am

@kroi wrote:
WhatGirl wrote:
@kroi wrote:

I don't think as many people who have been feeling that Reylo was 'debunked' or is less likely now because of #romancegate & #plotgate, would feel that way if they read the entire articles/full quotes. As Pablo said (paraphrasing here) there is a middle ground between there being no plan at all and the directors/writers having the freedom to tell the story the way they want to tell it. The biggest thing is that JJ, RJ, & now CT, are and have been working together and if JJ was setting up a romance in TFA between Rey & Kylo, whether it's ultimately in TLJ in some way or in XI, he wasn't doing so in a vacuum.
@kroi

I don't think we should drop Reylo per se, just broaden our views and consider other possibilities that might explain Kylo and Rey's connection and how they will relate to one another in the event romance is not happening and the relationship has been made completely platonic.[/b[ Honestly, a Kylo-Rey connection that is purposefully sanitized of romantic/sexual tension will feel weirdly sterile and it's not an easy thing for me to speculate about. But it may be prudent to discuss and be prepared for the chance that that's exactly what they're going to do.

What could happen is that Rey will learn Kylo's backstory and feel pity for him. She might also learn about her own family and feel horrified if it turns out they were dark siders and had anything to do with Snoke. This would definitely lead to a change of feelings on her part and a desire to redeem Ben. As for why Kylo would listen to anything a virtual stranger has to say when his own father was unable to save him, maybe Kylo and Rey together hold the key to destroying Snoke and bringing forth an order of new Force users who will learn to utilize both the light and dark in themselves.


If they were making their relationship platonic, why would they create a new LI for Finn and continue to beat over people's heads that Rey & Finn are 'just' friends? The only people besides Finn & Kylo that Rey has any friendships/relationships with are Luke & Chewie and I don't think either are being set up as her romantic interest. Neutral

Again, I'm not saying people shouldn't dial back their expectations for romance in TLJ, but I personally never thought it would be as blatant in TLJ as some did... Rey & Kylo have to get on the same side first AND work through a whole lot of stuff before being a 'couple'. I do think that together they will be that perfect balance of Light & Dark that Snoke thinks Kylo is, and sure that could be without romance, but I don't think it will be.
@kroi

Yeah why would they give Finn a new love interest when if the writers wanted to, they could easily put Rey with Finn, have that "central Han/Leia style romance (Rian's exact words), and be done with it?  Because that's not the story they're telling, which was set up from get go.  Also, the more I think about it, the less I buy into PlotGate, like AT ALL.  Rey's parentage was already determined before the script for TFA was written.  There's a plot point right  there.  In order to get Adam Driver on board, the creators had to go into detail at length what he'd be doing and what his arc would be.  Cue more set in stone plot points.  

@WhatGirl going back to your original question, I have thought about what platonic Reylo could look like at the end of the trilogy, and what makes me think that it's so unlikely is that I can't imagine it at all, especially seeing what I saw in TFA.  Pablo even admitted Kylo's sexuality could be determined by watching TFA (I know you remember that glorious tweet), so there's your answer.  That tweet came long after filming for TLJ had wrapped.  It would be some serious retcon to make them some sort of friendship soul mates with a neverending Force connection at the end of this trilogy.   I just reread my last sentence and seals the deal even more that that's NOT what they're doing.


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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by snufkin on June 8th 2017, 9:39 am

Also just like how they knew that they'd never win creating any new villain who'd live up to Vader as an icon, so they came up instead with Kylo to both address and deconstruct that issue, they'd also never win trying to create a straightforward romance along the lines of Han and Leia. GL obviously thought he could do it with the PT, but in the words of Roger Ebert, "I've read greeting cards with more romance and passion in them than what George Lucas is capable of writing." Han and Leia's romance was iconic thanks to the combined talents of the actors and writers like Gloria Katz, Leigh Brackett, and Lawrence Kasdan. They could have done an actual 'it's a re-hash' route and written the type of hackneyed copycat romance that fanboys in the comments section insisted that Rey would have with either Finn (her best friend who acts like her brother) or Poe (somebody she's barely interacted with), make either of them an ersatz Han Solo. Or Hell, they could've just done that with Rey as an uptight princess with Ben Solo, the wiseass smuggler like his old man. They didn't do any of that, so at least points for whatever they're trying to do, it's trying to not fall into the trap of actually copying the original when they know it could never live up to it.

As for Han's death being a barrier, even if it hadn't been at Ben's hands, it's likely you'd still have some fans objecting to him and any potential relationship because "he did bad things to Luke" and "she's his cousin." Just look at how hard even after the Reywalker debunking (and this happens all the time when people are presented with clear evidence which proves their pet conspiracy theory is false), these same fans pivoted to Rey Solo, JJ lied about Khan, Luke could adopt Rey, maybe Finn or Rose are Luke's long lost child etc. The filmmakers know from the PT that you're not going to be able to please everybody and at a certain point, there are always going to be some very vocal fans who aren't happy because it doesn't jibe with what they believe/wanted. So that's a given, regardless of how the character and relationship is handled. You could give him a tragic backstory (torture/brainwashing) and subsequent penance and heroic actions and there will still likely be fans complaining that he should have just been killed as an unredeemable a**hole because the forgiveness route undermines whatever they wanted for Rey as the heroine.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Darth Dingbat on June 8th 2017, 9:42 am

Sorry, I was a bit trigger-happy with my post and forgot that I also meant to write: think of all the things about which we've already been right. Starting with the "mysterious connection".

I distinctly remember last spring how people mocked Reylos for seeing some kind of a mysterious connection between Rey and Kylo. I remember a lot of, "LOL get a grip, those two are the villain and the hero, nothing more, there's no Force bond, there's no weird connection, there's nothing deep going on between them except hatred, you guys are delusional".

Well, we weren't.

There is a connection. A mysterious connection. Our instincts were spot on - and all the Reylo fixation on a Force bond in December 2015 was accurate after all, whether that "mysterious connection that seems to link the two" is an "official" Force bond or a Force connection with a different name. Either way, it's something similar, it was there, we weren't seeing things.

And I have to say, if the mysterious connection turns out to be a platonic one - well, whatever. If you say so. But in that case large chunks of TFA don't make sense to me, because the "mysterious connection" that Reylos zoomed in on went hand in hand with the romantic tropes and the "red string of fate" foreshadowing. "By the grace of your training, I will not be seduced"... hehe, no, dude will be seduced by his platonic soul buddy and light-side friendship! Bridal carry and "you get a sense that there might be something else going on here"... sure thing, Kylo just found his eternal soul-level bestie and decided to bridal carry her for funsies!

Sorry, but no. You can have platonic soulmates. You can have a mysterious soul connection that turns out to be a beautiful, deep bond of friendship. You can have all that, but what you don't do in that case is layer that soulmate connection with romance tropes.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by IoJovi on June 8th 2017, 9:50 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:Sorry, I was a bit trigger-happy with my post and forgot that I also meant to write: think of all the things about which we've already been right. Starting with the "mysterious connection".

I distinctly remember last spring how people mocked Reylos for seeing some kind of a mysterious connection between Rey and Kylo. I remember a lot of, "LOL get a grip, those two are the villain and the hero, nothing more, there's no Force bond, there's no weird connection, there's nothing deep going on between them except hatred, you guys are delusional".

Well, we weren't.

There is a connection. A mysterious connection. Our instincts were spot on - and all the Reylo fixation on a Force bond in December 2015 was accurate after all, whether that "mysterious connection that seems to link the two" is an "official" Force bond or a Force connection with a different name. Either way, it's something similar, it was there, we weren't seeing things.

And I have to say, if the mysterious connection turns out to be a platonic one - well, whatever. If you say so. But in that case large chunks of TFA don't make sense to me, because the "mysterious connection" that Reylos zoomed in on went hand in hand with the romantic tropes and the "red string of fate" foreshadowing. "By the grace of your training, I will not be seduced"... hehe, no, dude will be seduced by his platonic soul buddy and light-side friendship! Bridal carry and "you get a sense that there might be something else going on here"... sure thing, Kylo just found his eternal soul-level bestie and decided to bridal carry her for funsies!

Sorry, but no. You can have platonic soulmates. You can have a mysterious soul connection that turns out to be a beautiful, deep bond of friendship. You can have all that, but what you don't do in that case is layer that soulmate connection with romance tropes.
@Darth Dingbat

Oh my gosh I had forgotten all about that glorious quote from JJ from the DVD.  It wasn't hard to figure out what he was alluding to, even if he didn't come out and say it.  Interesting enough, Rian Johnson answered a tweet right away last week in response to RomanceGate by a Reylo shipper who was smart enough to not mention Reylo at all, but instead, just wondering who else had a Force bond.  RJ knew right away who they were referring to, and said he was referring to specifically a Han and Leia style type of romance.  So we weren't seeing things.  It's happening, guys.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Guest on June 8th 2017, 9:59 am

@Tex wrote:This morning I’m firmly on the side of romantic Reylo. Something more substantial than romancegate or plotgate will need to come along to destroy my confidence in it happening. However, if we come out of this trilogy with a platonic, yet spiritual relationship that’s fine. I’ll suck it up and relish what we got. Will I be disappointed? Yes, because of the unfulfilled potential. The potential of the mysterious connection, the “don’t be afraid I feel it too”, the two disparate pieces coming together and everything else that has been laid out before us.

Whatgirl wrote:Personally, I think Adam and Daisy were originally cast to play each other's love interests. The chemistry between them cannot be denied. And this is also how JJ directed TFA - it was all leading to a big romance filled with intense drama, attraction, and a deep soul connection on top of it. I do believe that. JJ had even promised a central romance for the ST in a 2013 interview, which tells me that he had intended it.  

@Whatgirl

Honestly, this is my feelings. If Rey and Kylo were ever meant to be romantically involved you know somewhere, buried in a vault, there must be behind the scenes footage of Adam and Daisy doing a chemistry test together. Also where is the rest of the behind the scenes footage of Adam and Daisy training together for their final fight in TFA? Or maybe Daisy or Adam talking about our hero and villain meeting for the first time on Takodana? Or the interrogation scene? Perhaps they’re holding onto it for a reason? I think I’m getting a little conspiracy theorist over here, but it strikes me as odd. Maybe one day, when all the movies are out on Blu-ray we’ll get a short documentary like “Rey and Kylo Ren: Creating Balance in the Force” or something. Y’all feel free to come up with a better title lol.
@Tex

Romantic Reylo is a very valid perception when you base your speculation on what happened in the first film. The novelizations and script are even more supportive of a future romance developing between Rey and Kylo. My concern is that, as somebody here mentioned, the angry fan reaction to Han's murder could have influenced changes. They might have decided it'd be going too far to pair up our beloved heroine with Han's killer. I personally hope this is not the case, since not all of us reacted that way. I have forgiven Kylo. He did not kill his father out of hatred, only the opposite - Snoke, who'd targeted him since he was in the womb, required him to do it as a test to prove his allegiance. If he did not love his father, it would not have been a test. These things work differently than they do in real life, which many SW fans do not seem to understand.

Hopefully TLJ will devote time to making the tragedy of this clearer to the audience, that Kylo is in fact a victim himself who feels trapped and has been manipulated for literally his entire life. I personally think there MUST be light in him since he apparently resisted for 23 years... and then something happened to shake his faith and that's when Snoke opportunistically got his claws in him, snatching him away from his family and friends. He needs to be saved... and it has to be Rey, since she's the protagonist. I think she will forgive him, and by working together toward a mutual goal, trust can be allowed to grow between them. I see this as the perfect catalyst for UST that sparks off a romance, should they still choose to take it in that direction. An alternative to romance could be a strong and unwavering alliance to one another in the commitment to bringing balance to the Force and restoring peace to the galaxy.

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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Darth Dingbat on June 8th 2017, 10:07 am

If you think about it - if the "mysterious connection" is indeed a pre-destined soul bond of a kind we haven't seen before in SW, it's a far cry from "Han-to-Leia, unrequited, burning romance" or whatever the wording was.

That kind of a romance can't be Hanleia or Pride and Prejudice in Space. It's something a lot bigger and more mysterious than "regular" romance. It won't be simply about two people getting to know each other and developing attraction between them; instead, it would be about two people who are two halves of the same whole, who recognise their own soul in each other and know each other as if they shared one mind.

You'd have to approach that kind of a connection very differently. And it has the potential to be something very epic indeed.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by vaderito on June 8th 2017, 10:07 am

C'mon, guys. I'm all for lowering expectations because we now know there won't be an epic, central romance in TLJ. But turning Rey and Kylo into just platonic relationship is serious cluster. The chemistry, the uniqueness of the connection through the Force, the potential for epicness, the passion, it would be lost if they sanitized it and kept it un-romantic. Also, would make TFA look really stupid.

I mean, if they want to save things for IX or even next trilogy/spin-off, that's OK. But drop it completely? Ugh.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Acritiqua on June 8th 2017, 10:38 am

I never exactly expected a full-on Rey/Kylo romance. As I've said before I don't know how Rey will get there (not to say she can't!). And also as I've said before, to me the question really hinges on if they are blood-related.

My interest in Rey/Kylo centers around their connection. Although I found a lot of TFA boring because it really was a bit TOO much like ANH especially, the Rey and Kylo scenes really sparked my interest, maybe because it was so resonant with my own fantasies or the way I encounter my shadow self or the animus in dreams. And Kylo is like this dark creature, predator, wraith, but I could see Ben Solo in there beneath all of that. The scenes between them were so intense, and more intimate, and there is some kind of duality possibly between them, and they were more adult in some ways. 

I see their connection as originating in the Force and being spiritual. It is like they are soul mates. Although soul mates are often romantic, I don't believe they always have to be. Mainly I just want to see more of their connection, and the fulfillment of what it can promise. Rey can reach Kylo and she did reach him in TFA. I know that somehow, she can bring him back. The story would obviously need this to be his choice, but the point is that before he was pleading to Vader's helmet about the light and how he needs to hide all his goodness from Snoke (he's like a frightened child afraid of getting his hand caught in the cookie jar, he's learned the light is BAD and DANGEROUS), but once he meets Rey he is STRUCK by the light, and by her. And it's like wherever she goes, he may be moved to follow. If he were to follow her, she could lead him out of the darkness, I just know it. And the reason I focus on Rey in this rather than Kylo's family is that they have tried. I do believe that Han's sacrifice will be a huge part of Kylo's fate, and his future interactions with Leia and Luke also very important (especially Leia). So I don't think it would be Rey single-handedly. But perhaps as he learns about the value of family through his observations of her (with HIS family), he'll be able to come to the realization he needs to in order to see that his path is wrong and what Han's death means. I think that the "I once was lost, but now I'm found" part of this will come through Rey. She illuminates. Her triumph over her own darkness can show him how to triumph over his. And she is his peer, powerful with the Force like he is, an equal, and she's entering her early 20s which were probably the most turbulent time for Kylo (leading up to his turn to the dark side). If he sees her struggle and overcome but remain on the light, it shows him what is possible.

I would love this relationship to be romantic because there is such chemistry and intensity between them. And to me they do interact like two people who are soul mates, supposed to be in union like a marriage, the other half to one another, so on. They also have potential for deep mutual understanding. Kylo has already begun to find this. He relates to her. He feels for her.

And I would really love if the person who can come back that Maz meant wasn't Luke but Ben. He was stolen from the Light, corrupted and mangled, he is the knight who is supposed to be restored. The next generation.

I know that a lot of people hate Kylo Ren and what he has done is terrible. One could ask, why is this person worth saving. I think that TLJ needs to show why. (I think it's because what Ben Solo can do for good would be incredible. And because his legacy is to protect the balance of the Force. And because "salvation" is available to all.)

He could of course never fully go back to the light. He could become an anti-hero because the psychological damage is too great, and continue as a broken person still trying to find the way, or accepting that he can fight the darkness with the darkness because of his marred soul and so that is his role. But I think that Kylo already is a broken person trying to find the way (lost) and he may already perceive himself as the heavy but necessary hand to keep back evil. For this reason, I think his character wouldn't really go anywhere if he became an anti-hero (he probably already sees himself kind of like that).

And lastly I love the idea of Rey navigating through all of this and glimpses of Ben Solo keep appearing when she faces Kylo, and so she becomes more interested in calling out the good in him (perhaps even demanding that Ben Solo step up and stop hiding like a frightened mouse behind this construct of Kylo Ren) than in facing his evil with her evil (tapping into the dark side) so as to destroy it. She was already at that point at the end of TFA. Something stayed her hand.

I guess my point is that I see the connection as spritual/mystical/the Force/soulmates/connected through circumstances and that romance is something that can arise out of this, but it is not the core/root of it.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by tukicarreno on June 8th 2017, 11:26 am

@vaderito wrote:C'mon, guys. I'm all for lowering expectations because we now know there won't be an epic, central romance in TLJ. But turning Rey and Kylo into just platonic relationship is serious cluster. The chemistry, the uniqueness of the connection through the Force, the potential for epicness, the passion, it would be lost if they sanitized it and kept it un-romantic. Also, would make TFA look really stupid.

I mean, if they want to save things for IX or even next trilogy/spin-off, that's OK. But drop it completely? Ugh.  
@vaderito

I am sure that is not the case. Notice how Rian said many times "not equivalent to Han and Leia" and "you´ll have to wait and see"   if someone would get involved with anyone. Plus the " I can´t speak for Colin" quote totally reads as " He is the one who will be doing the romantic scenes" to me. It will be a slow burn but very rewarding when we finally see Episode IX. Smile bounce Cannot wait! Plus I am sure we will get lots of Reylo angst in TLJ! Wink
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Acritiqua on June 8th 2017, 11:42 am

Not the equivalent of Han TO Leia. It's really specific. You could even read that as no male character informing the shrew female character about how she feels about him and taming her (she eventually lowers her defenses, reveals vulnerability and admits to it). It wouldn't even necessarily mean no female character taming the shrewish male character in a romantic sense (the statement could even be that specific).

Wait. Did I post in the wrong thread? My post was supposed to follow from another, and um, can't find it. Just take this post as a stray. Neutral
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by IoJovi on June 8th 2017, 12:05 pm

@Acritiqua wrote:Not the equivalent of Han TO Leia. It's really specific. You could even read that as no male character informing the shrew female character about how she feels about him and taming her (she eventually lowers her defenses, reveals vulnerability and admits to it). It wouldn't even necessarily mean no female character taming the shrewish male character in a romantic sense (the statement could even be that specific).

Wait. Did I post in the wrong thread? My post was supposed to follow from another, and um, can't find it. Just take this post as a stray. Neutral
@Acritiqua

No, you have the right thread.  I didn't include the link since I had already posted several times in the past few days, as I find it intriguing as all get out.  I was only referencing it, but here it is again if you need it.

And yes, I agree with everything you said.  That tweet is very specific.

https://twitter.com/DannieGruff/status/868103090364456961


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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on June 8th 2017, 12:09 pm

@ZioRen wrote:Even if Rian doesn't do much with it, if Reylo is the canon direction I hope they heavily hint or make it clear in some respect in TLJ. Just the idea of spending another two years having the same arguments and being called delusional gives me the stirrings of a headache.

@ZioRen

IMO, TLJ definitely has to do two things. 1.) Prove that Ben is a victim/establish sympathy for a redemption arc 2.) Hint more heavily at the possibility of romance between he and Rey 

Because everyone I've talked to about TFA didn't pick up on Reylo at all.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by ISeeAnIsland on June 8th 2017, 1:16 pm

I'd argue that TFA did give us a set up for platonic soul buddies... Rey and Finn.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by IoJovi on June 8th 2017, 1:20 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:I'd argue that TFA did give us a set up for platonic soul buddies... Rey and Finn.
@ISeeAnIsland

lol! lol! lol!

And we know that a good story teller never repeats the same theme twice without reason for comparison...
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Acritiqua on June 8th 2017, 1:34 pm

Rey and Finn don't have an energy present between them that they can feel in one another... whatever connects Rey and Kylo is deeper than finding a best friend. (Not to crap on friendship!)
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Saracene on June 8th 2017, 4:02 pm

I'm probably in minority, but I actually don't think that a sad backstory is 100% necessary for Kylo's redemption to happen, and I never attached anywhere as much importance to it as others seem to. Its main significance to me was that it could be something to start changing Rey's mind about Kylo, but it's not the only way to achieve it.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by ISeeAnIsland on June 8th 2017, 4:12 pm

@Saracene wrote:I'm probably in minority, but I actually don't think that a sad backstory is 100% necessary for Kylo's redemption to happen, and I never attached anywhere as much importance to it as others seem to. Its main significance to me was that it could be something to start changing Rey's mind about Kylo, but it's not the only way to achieve it.
@Saracene

I think people strongly suspect that Ben is going to have a sympathetic backstory because there are at least three spoilers that seem to point towards that:

1. the rumor that Luke tells Rey to kill Kylo, but Rey doesn't want to.
2. the bit from the interrogation scene where Rey saw something in Kylo's mind "that will have ramifications in the sequel" that wasn't his fear that he'd never be as strong as Vader
3. the spoiler that we're revisiting the temple slaughter in another vision for Rey. Why revisit that scene unless Rey learns more about what actually happened than what she was told via Han's exposition ("one boy destroyed it all")?

Granted, I don't think these will be the only things to change Rey's mind about Kylo. I still think that something will happen where he'll end up saving her life on Ahch-To (not necessarily falling from the cliff in the fight--it could be something completely different), and that's going to be a big step between the two of them when it happens.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by MeadowofAshes on June 8th 2017, 10:04 pm

If Reylo ends up not being romantic in nature:


Kidding! My reaction would probably be more like:


Because I think the story would fall flat on its face. Here's what I'm 100% certain with no margin of error - he's got a redemption arc, she's not related to the family, they have to bring balance together and bring about the "new Jedi". Even ignoring the foreshadowing, film language, and symbolism we've obsessed over for the past year and a half, it makes very little sense to me for those two to not end up a romantic pairing.

Ben: We've been through so much together. Thank you for leading me back to the light.
Rey: I've grown so much because of you.
Ben: I guess this is goodbye. 
Rey: Yes, off to being alone again. Looks like the belonging I seek is still ahead of me.
Ben: Me as well.
Rey: Goodbye, platonic friend.  
Ben: Goodbye, platonic friend. 

Roll credits.

Without some sort of strong (not freaking cousins) familial relation, it's just kindof a lame, anticlimactic ending.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by guardienne on June 9th 2017, 2:51 am

as my dislike and like of a story does not hinge on the relationship per se (it's a movie with space battles and force wizardry), i don't care that much either way and i'm also firmly in the platonic-relationships-are-important-too camp.

also we don't actually know what the story will be so it's chill. all the chill.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Acritiqua on June 9th 2017, 4:10 am

I think I might very well lose interest if there isn't much to the Rey/Kylo relationship in TLJ. I suppose it is because the relationships between characters is what makes a movie for me. And this is the one that draws me in TFA.

I am definitely interested in Luke's story and who Rey is and how the two will interact, and I would love to see Luke and Leia together again, and a Leia and Kylo scene and/or Leia and Snoke. I'm curious about DJ and Holdo's characters and how they fit into this. And really TLJ will clear up much better where all of this is headed because I see many possible directions from TFA alone (so TLJ would cut at least half of them).

But Rey/Kylo is the core of TFA to me. And part of that relationship IS its romantic potential. If TLJ eliminates any romantic potential I think I might lose interest as well, unless the new relationship is compelling enough (and I so far don't see any appeal in cousins or siblings, though I've tried).

Maybe Kylo's individual path would be enough to sustain interest as Kylo is the character that is most interesting to me.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by guardienne on June 9th 2017, 7:23 am

@acritiqua

i don't think non-romantic means individual paths or whatever, i'm just not personally compelled by relying on a 'ship for a story. it can be a story, for sure, but so far this is rey's story and perhaps it will be kylo's as well.

i think we recast the movie to be about kylo ren, when it isn't. he's there and he impressed us but he's not... you know, the hero.

i'm compelled by action and relationships play into that but they aren't the action. framing the story as if they were, i think doesn't really go anywhere.

anyway, who's DJ and Holdo?
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by Guest on June 9th 2017, 9:25 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:If you think about it - if the "mysterious connection" is indeed a pre-destined soul bond of a kind we haven't seen before in SW, it's a far cry from "Han-to-Leia, unrequited, burning romance" or whatever the wording was.

That kind of a romance can't be Hanleia or Pride and Prejudice in Space. It's something a lot bigger and more mysterious than "regular" romance. It won't be simply about two people getting to know each other and developing attraction between them; instead, it would be about two people who are two halves of the same whole, who recognise their own soul in each other and know each other as if they shared one mind.

You'd have to approach that kind of a connection very differently. And it has the potential to be something very epic indeed.
@Darth Dingbat

What you describe is exactly the kind of relationship I'd been hoping to see form across the next two films between Kylo and Rey: a deep and profound soul connection that is nothing like anything we've seen in the saga before. But, even if the romance is very subtle in TLJ, wouldn't it be considered central to the plot since it involves the two main characters? Also, if Kylo's compassion/love for Rey is the reason he comes back to the light (or at least, defects from the First Order) that would tie the romance with his redemption which is a major element in the story too.

But yeah. I'm at a loss picturing such a connection between two unrelated young people, one of whom has already exhibited interest in the other to his own undoing, and not having it evolve into romance. Hence the creation of this topic. I suppose they could do it without any romance but the remainder of the trilogy would then feel strange and hollow, like the heart and soul had been carved out. So, I don't know what the plan is. But at the same time, I've noticed small hints over recent months that Reylo might not happen; these signs made me uneasy but weren't generally enough to debunk the theory. Daisy casually mentioning Reylo in an interview and the Josh Gad video for instance makes me think they're not trying to hide a spoiler.

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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by IoJovi on June 9th 2017, 9:59 am

WhatGirl wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:If you think about it - if the "mysterious connection" is indeed a pre-destined soul bond of a kind we haven't seen before in SW, it's a far cry from "Han-to-Leia, unrequited, burning romance" or whatever the wording was.

That kind of a romance can't be Hanleia or Pride and Prejudice in Space. It's something a lot bigger and more mysterious than "regular" romance. It won't be simply about two people getting to know each other and developing attraction between them; instead, it would be about two people who are two halves of the same whole, who recognise their own soul in each other and know each other as if they shared one mind.

You'd have to approach that kind of a connection very differently. And it has the potential to be something very epic indeed.
@Darth Dingbat

What you describe is exactly the kind of relationship I'd been hoping to see form across the next two films between Kylo and Rey: a deep and profound soul connection that is nothing like anything we've seen in the saga before. But, even if the romance is very subtle in TLJ, wouldn't it be considered central to the plot since it involves the two main characters? Also, if Kylo's compassion/love for Rey is the reason he comes back to the light (or at least, defects from the First Order) that would tie the romance with his redemption which is a major element in the story too.

But yeah. I'm at a loss picturing such a connection between two unrelated young people, one of whom has already exhibited interest in the other to his own undoing, and not having it evolve into romance. Hence the creation of this topic. I suppose they could do it without any romance but the remainder of the trilogy would then feel strange and hollow, like the heart and soul had been carved out. So, I don't know what the plan is. But at the same time, I've noticed small hints over recent months that Reylo might not happen; these signs made me uneasy but weren't generally enough to debunk the theory. Daisy casually mentioning Reylo in an interview and the Josh Gad video for instance makes me think they're not trying to hide a spoiler.
@WhatGirl

I know what you mean about surrounding the question of "no central romance" being confusing as hell when I'm sure as sith we are still on the right track with where Rey and Kylo are headed. I've been thinking about this for awhile now, and here is my conclusion.

If we only had two movies, and the ST were instead only a two parter, I'd be worried.  However, we still have a third movie to go so it makes much more sense in that context that Rey and Kylo need to get further ahead in any understanding of each other before a relationship of that caliber can move forward.  The middle piece of this trilogy is going to focus on that.  Keep in mind too central can mean a lot of things.  Han and Leia's relationship began pretty early on in ESB and I think they shared about 3 or 4 kisses altogether, along with sitting on laps, hugging, etc.  It was a very traditional type of romance in an epic story.  Rey and Kylo aren't going to be doing any of this.  We'll see fighting, learning more about each other's fears, why Ben fell, and gradually we'll see Rey show him compassion.  There's so much more that needs to happen first, and this is what TLJ will focus on.

In Rian's real actual quote from Vanity Fair, he said it wasn't a center piece, but as to whether it existed, he said we'll see (meaning, yes there is). This fits into the context I detailed above.

I've been of the mind too for quite some time that Reylo is going to the be the twist (even before RomanceGate), echoing the reveal of the relationship between Luke and Vader in ESB, although with a different take on that entirely.  This is why I'm still not ruling out a kiss, but towards the very end of the film.  

What gives me great hope is that Colin Trevorrow was picked based on his movie Safety Not Guaranteed.  If you haven't seen this, you should.  It's based around a very unconventional romance, and while the male lead isn't a villain (rather, he's batsith crazy), it has Reylo written all over it in the sense these are two broken people finding comfort in each other.  It's a really beautiful movie with a gorgeous, happy ending.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by ISeeAnIsland on June 9th 2017, 10:28 am

@IoJovi wrote:
WhatGirl wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:If you think about it - if the "mysterious connection" is indeed a pre-destined soul bond of a kind we haven't seen before in SW, it's a far cry from "Han-to-Leia, unrequited, burning romance" or whatever the wording was.

That kind of a romance can't be Hanleia or Pride and Prejudice in Space. It's something a lot bigger and more mysterious than "regular" romance. It won't be simply about two people getting to know each other and developing attraction between them; instead, it would be about two people who are two halves of the same whole, who recognise their own soul in each other and know each other as if they shared one mind.

You'd have to approach that kind of a connection very differently. And it has the potential to be something very epic indeed.
@Darth Dingbat

What you describe is exactly the kind of relationship I'd been hoping to see form across the next two films between Kylo and Rey: a deep and profound soul connection that is nothing like anything we've seen in the saga before. But, even if the romance is very subtle in TLJ, wouldn't it be considered central to the plot since it involves the two main characters? Also, if Kylo's compassion/love for Rey is the reason he comes back to the light (or at least, defects from the First Order) that would tie the romance with his redemption which is a major element in the story too.

But yeah. I'm at a loss picturing such a connection between two unrelated young people, one of whom has already exhibited interest in the other to his own undoing, and not having it evolve into romance. Hence the creation of this topic. I suppose they could do it without any romance but the remainder of the trilogy would then feel strange and hollow, like the heart and soul had been carved out. So, I don't know what the plan is. But at the same time, I've noticed small hints over recent months that Reylo might not happen; these signs made me uneasy but weren't generally enough to debunk the theory. Daisy casually mentioning Reylo in an interview and the Josh Gad video for instance makes me think they're not trying to hide a spoiler.
@WhatGirl

I know what you mean about surrounding the question of "no central romance" being confusing as hell when I'm sure as sith we are still on the right track with where Rey and Kylo are headed. I've been thinking about this for awhile now, and here is my conclusion.

If we only had two movies, and the ST were instead only a two parter, I'd be worried.  However, we still have a third movie to go so it makes much more sense in that context that Rey and Kylo need to get further ahead in any understanding of each other before a relationship of that caliber can move forward.  The middle piece of this trilogy is going to focus on that.  Keep in mind too central can mean a lot of things.  Han and Leia's relationship began pretty early on in ESB and I think they shared about 3 or 4 kisses altogether, along with sitting on laps, hugging, etc.  It was a very traditional type of romance in an epic story.  Rey and Kylo aren't going to be doing any of this.  We'll see fighting, learning more about each other's fears, why Ben fell, and gradually we'll see Rey show him compassion.  There's so much more that needs to happen first, and this is what TLJ will focus on.

In Rian's real actual quote from Vanity Fair, he said it wasn't a center piece, but as to whether it existed, he said we'll see (meaning, yes there is).  This fits into the context I detailed above.  

I've been of the mind too for quite some time that Reylo is going to the be the twist (even before RomanceGate), echoing the reveal of the relationship between Luke and Vader in ESB, although with a different take on that entirely.  This is why I'm still not ruling out a kiss, but towards the very end of the film.  

What gives me great hope is that Colin Trevorrow was picked based on his movie Safety Not Guaranteed.  If you haven't seen this, you should.  It's based around a very unconventional romance, and while the male lead isn't a villain (rather, he's batsith crazy), it has Reylo written all over it in the sense these are two broken people finding comfort in each other.  It's a really beautiful movie with a gorgeous, happy ending.
@IoJovi

Agreed. And Rian said that there wouldn't be a central, plot-driving romance in TLJ, not that there wouldn't end up being a central romance in the ST. The only thing I've done is dialed back my expectations for how far we might see things go in TLJ. (Prior to VF, I was fairly confident that we'd see a "surprise kiss" near the end of the movie...I'm not particularly optimistic about that any more...but that doesn't mean we can't have loads of UST, etc.)

I think that's a good thing, as far as Kylo's redemption goes. It means that Kylo is going to have to pull his head out of his a** himself. His redemption is going to be internally-driven rather than externally-driven. Meaning that Kylo is going to change because he wants to, not because he wants Rey to like him. Don't get me wrong--I can't see a scenario where Rey isn't a catalyst in his change, but I don't think she's going to be the driving force.

And I still fully expect that at some point in TLJ, Kylo is going to save Rey's life, and that's going to force them both to take another look at each other and their feelings.

Finally...to finish my ramble, I think we're getting a little hung up on semantics here. Rian clarified more than once that we're not getting a Han-and-Leia type romance in TLJ. Not that there isn't any romance in TLJ. And certainly not that there isn't a central romance overall in the ST.

Granted, that kills my headcanon/wish that Rey and Kylo escape on the Falcon together at the end of TLJ and bicker at each other, but whatever, I'm over it.
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Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

Post by tukicarreno on June 9th 2017, 10:29 am

@IoJovi wrote:We'll see fighting, learning more about each other's fears, why Ben fell, and gradually we'll see Rey show him compassion.  There's so much more that needs to happen first, and this is what TLJ will focus on.

In Rian's real actual quote from Vanity Fair, he said it wasn't a center piece, but as to whether it existed, he said we'll see (meaning, yes there is). This fits into the context I detailed above.

I've been of the mind too for quite some time that Reylo is going to the be the twist (even before RomanceGate), echoing the reveal of the relationship between Luke and Vader in ESB, although with a different take on that entirely.  This is why I'm still not ruling out a kiss, but towards the very end of the film.  

What gives me great hope is that Colin Trevorrow was picked based on his movie Safety Not Guaranteed.  If you haven't seen this, you should.  It's based around a very unconventional romance, and while the male lead isn't a villain (rather, he's batsith crazy), it has Reylo written all over it in the sense these are two broken people finding comfort in each other.  It's a really beautiful movie with a gorgeous, happy ending.


This! TLJ will be the middle chapter that will further setup the potential for Reylo  while still not necessarily come to fruition. I am not sure about a kiss on VIII, (if only!), but I do think Colin will definitely bring it home in episode 9.
From one of his recent interviews, Colin said he believed a big budget film should include love and romance among other things, so everyone could find something to relate to, so I am hoping this is what they were planning all along. It will just be slow burn kind of thing, but those are the best stories IMO! Love Approves
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