Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

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Is Kylo Ren a virgin?

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Re: Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

Post by vaderito on Tue 29 Mar - 1:31

yes, novelization says that he has GPS in his belt which is how Hux located him on SK when it started to disintegrate.
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Re: Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

Post by Reynak on Tue 29 Mar - 1:35

vaderito wrote:yeah, I don't buy that either. Kylo didn't have anyone, hence his wonder at finding Rey. C'mon, give AD some credit for acting Kylo's awakening so wide-eyed and child-like. Experienced man or even a man with lost love doesn't act like that. It's hard to explain w/o legal gifs but when he looks at her, at her lips and face it doesn't strike me as "I want to kiss her cause I know how much I liked it before" but as " I wonder what kissing is like. I so want to kiss her". Like, he never thought about it until he found her and suddenly he thinks and wants all kinds of things that he didn't experience. Does that make sense?


Completely, I agree. Look at this:

http://38.media.tumblr.com/c034d30c33540c3d23173abe3624431c/tumblr_inline_o4r7xe9hDn1tkus04_500.gif

This is exactly what you explained above. The poor kid, because he is like a kid despite being 30,looks as if he couldn't help wondering what kissing is like, what those lips would feel like against his own. He looks as if he could barely contain his wish to find out.
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Re: Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

Post by AnneNeville on Tue 29 Mar - 1:36

Reynak wrote:
vaderito wrote:yeah, I don't buy that either. Kylo didn't have anyone, hence his wonder at finding Rey. C'mon, give AD some credit for acting Kylo's awakening so wide-eyed and child-like. Experienced man or even a man with lost love doesn't act like that. It's hard to explain w/o legal gifs but when he looks at her, at her lips and face it doesn't strike me as "I want to kiss her cause I know how much I liked it before" but as " I wonder what kissing is like. I so want to kiss her". Like, he never thought about it until he found her and suddenly he thinks and wants all kinds of things that he didn't experience. Does that make sense?


Completely, I agree. Look at this:

http://38.media.tumblr.com/c034d30c33540c3d23173abe3624431c/tumblr_inline_o4r7xe9hDn1tkus04_500.gif

This is exactly what you explained above. The poor kid, because he is like a kid despite being 30,looks as if he couldn't help wondering what kissing is like, what those lips would feel like against his own. He looks as if he could barely contain his wish to find out.

All I can say is . . . April 5 cannot come too soon.
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Re: Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

Post by Reynak on Tue 29 Mar - 2:01

One last thing, Kylo's abuse would also explain why his family couldn't save him, because if he suffered the kind of damage we suspect, only the love of a woman could heal him.

Yes, I know that in RL he would need therapy and not a girlfriend, but this is a movie and only romatic love and loving healthy sex could make him get over traumatic past experiences of a certain kind.


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Re: Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

Post by Kylo Ren's 8-Pack on Tue 29 Mar - 2:05

Wow.....just read Reynak's great interpretation of the comment Kylo makes to Han regarding how he has 'been waiting for this day for a long time'.
Very thought provoking way of looking at it from the point of view that Kylo was abused by Snoke.
Makes that already gripping scene all the more intense when put into this context.


Here is Reynak's post below.
I didn't use the 'quote' feature as it turned into a cluttered multi-quoted mess and I wanted to cut to the chase.

------------



He's been waiting for a long time, but why? Many thought that he was waiting for this day to kill his father because he is a heartless killer but his face shows the opposite when he cries and suffers so much. He didn't want to do this, he never did. He tried to avoid meeting Han in SK and perhaps also in Takodana when he left so quickly taking Rey with him, he avoided him because he knew there was no way Snoke would allow him to let Han go unharmed.

What does he mean when he says he's been waiting for so long? I think he's been waiting for his father to come and save him from the Dark, to set him free from Snoke, and that Darkness and Snoke's influence are a metaphor for abuse, this young man was sexualy abused as a kid.

When Han asks him to come home with him, Ben says it's too late. And it's too late because Han could have saved him years ago but now he is too damaged. They will never spell this out in the movie, but I think what you explained is what is implied, your first take on Ben's story is the right one, the most chilling take, unfortunately.

----------

Very potent.
Gets the brain cranking....


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Re: Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

Post by vaderito on Tue 29 Mar - 2:07

Yeah, proponents of fantasy = real life/movie = real life forget that it is not the case. Movie time is condensed and steps simplified so what takes years or even decades in real life, takes few minutes to 2 hours to accomplish in movies. Therefore, love heals instantly like a years-long therapy or even better. It's actually sad that people are forgetting how to enjoy escapism precisely for being simplified, instant and unrealistic.
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Re: Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Tue 29 Mar - 2:09

[quote="Reynak"][quote="SoloSideCousin"]
Reynak wrote:
He's been waiting for a long time, but why? Many thought that he was waiting for this day to kill his father because he is a heartless killer but his face shows the opposite when he cries and suffers so much. He didn't want to do this, he never did. He tried to avoid meeting Han in SK and perhaps also in Takodana when he left so quickly taking Rey with him, he avoided him because he knew there was no way Snoke would allow him to let Han go unharmed.

What does he mean when he says he's been waiting for so long? I think he's been waiting for his father to come and save him from the Dark, to set him free from Snoke, and that Darkness and Snoke's influence are a metaphor for abuse, this young man was sexualy abused as a kid.

When Han asks him to come home with him, Ben says it's too late. And it's too late because Han could have saved him years ago but now he is too damaged. They will never spell this out in the movie, but I think what you explained is what is implied, your first take on Ben's story is the right one, the most chilling take, unfortunately.
I got this vibe the first time I saw the movie, though I haven't spoken about it much. Rey, Ren and Finn are all abuse metaphors, but Ren's is the most bone-chilling because it's definitely meant to tackle child sexual abuse. Abandonment is horrible as well, as is brainwashing (i.e. Hitler Youth comparison for Finn), but there's nothing quite like the sexual abuse of a child that hits close to home for most people. Ren was "preyed upon" by a creature from the shadows that fed on his loneliness and his fear, his longing for attachment, for family, for love.

The metaphor is apt, and I think it's one we needed in a mainstream fantasy series. I think it'll remain one of my favourites for years to come simply because of how powerful it is.
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Re: Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

Post by Mrs Ben Solo on Tue 29 Mar - 2:12

I voted virgin!

That was my first impression of him when I went in and saw TFA. The way he is completely covered from head to foot in layer upon layer. How socially awkward he is with everyone, but especially Rey. His austere solitary quarters with only a creepy mask to confide in. None of it speaks to someone who is comfortable or familiar with human contact.

Snoke wants to keep him pure and away from anyone who could threaten his hold on Kylo. He doesn't strike me as the type that would be willing to share. I know dark-siders have indulged in sexual relationships. But Snoke already knows that Kylo is susceptible to light-side feelings, such as compassion. He would surely be too wary of Kylo falling in love to allow him to scratch that itch. That whole "We'll see" thing when Kylo insists he won't be seduced suggests as much.

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Re: Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Tue 29 Mar - 2:13

Reynak wrote:
vaderito wrote:yeah, I don't buy that either. Kylo didn't have anyone, hence his wonder at finding Rey. C'mon, give AD some credit for acting Kylo's awakening so wide-eyed and child-like. Experienced man or even a man with lost love doesn't act like that. It's hard to explain w/o legal gifs but when he looks at her, at her lips and face it doesn't strike me as "I want to kiss her cause I know how much I liked it before" but as " I wonder what kissing is like. I so want to kiss her". Like, he never thought about it until he found her and suddenly he thinks and wants all kinds of things that he didn't experience. Does that make sense?


Completely, I agree. Look at this:

http://38.media.tumblr.com/c034d30c33540c3d23173abe3624431c/tumblr_inline_o4r7xe9hDn1tkus04_500.gif

This is exactly what you explained above. The poor kid, because he is like a kid despite being 30,looks as if he couldn't help wondering what kissing is like, what those lips would feel like against his own. He looks as if he could barely contain his wish to find out.

I *have not* watched any HD version of the movie yet.  And I really like to stay as open as possible about storyline possibilities.  It makes for very fun discussions, and also, as I expressed earlier, I really don't think the movies are going to fit neatly into one particular narrative box, but rather a combination of things.  As a result,  I really don't want to get pigeonholed into any kind of thinking that "it must be this way because this trope demands it" because part of my fun in this process is the creative brainstorming.  Just like with any brainstorming a huge amount of it will be unworkable in the end, but you will learn things on the journey of thinking about it.  So though I am personally in love with some Kylo wakes up when Snoke is trying to turn Rey to the Dark Side and Kylo takes her and runs away and he and Rey get stuck in the MF or on some desolate planet kind of story and that's where they'll bond and fall in love, I can't think that's the only possibility, because there are a lot of ways to skin this cat and still make it awesome.  As such, I want to think out the possibilities of all kind of scenarios ... until some evidence is presented that makes them impossible.

That being said ... this clip is pretty damn good evidence of there being no lost great love.  In fact, it's good evidence of how a sexually abused person might react when for the first time he actually wants something sexual, but because he knows his experience is completely warped has no idea on how to go about it and desperately doesn't want to screw up. Adam Driver is so freaking brilliant!


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Re: Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

Post by Kyla Ren on Tue 29 Mar - 2:15

I just cast my vote for undecided because I keep going back and forth.  I can see it both ways.  On the one hand, Kylo does seem very virginal.  He does cover every inch of his body and he also seems completely mesmerized by Rey, as if he is just experiencing attraction for the first time.  But on the other hand, he does seem to have some swagger when he takes off his mask for her.  So, I don't know.  I'm just not sure about Kylo.  I think Rey is probably a virgin, despite the horrible and dangerous conditions in which she probably grew up.  There was that character Constable Zuvio who was cut out of the movie whose presence might have kept violent crime levels down.  Or so I would hope.

Actually, though, I think it would be really romantic if Kylo and Rey were both virgins.  That way they could both be each other's first time. Smile  I just think that would be so incredibly romantic. Smile
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Re: Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

Post by MeadowofAshes on Tue 29 Mar - 2:33

SoloSideCousin wrote:
Reynak wrote:
BastilaBey wrote:
CienaRee wrote:@BastiallaBey,I'm 100% sure Rey's a virgin.She didn't like Finn touching her and in the Before The Awakening novel it's mentioned that Rey never works with other scavengers because she only trusts herself so virgin for sure.
You are probably right, she's described as a loner in that book and Finn is her first friend. If it wasn't a Disney movie, I'd say Rey would have had to do some pretty tragic things in order to survive as a young woman on Jakku but clearly that's not going to be part of her character's canon.

Yeah, I agree that she would probably have suffered nasty experiences if she lived in the real world but the same could probably be said about him if he has been manipulated since childhood by an evil controlling adult who later groomed him because he's such a pure specimen of Force holder. This sounds very creepy to me. Snoke seduced Kylo to the Dark side, Leia chooses this worlds and Kylo says to Snoke he won't be seduced. They choose this world twice.

This is a Disney movie, so I'd say both are virgins, if this was gritty fantasy, or even real life, I'd guess they both could have suffered some type of molestation as kids. His looking so restrained and repressed and her feeling so unnerved when people touch her would suggest that.

TRIGGER WARNING: Talk about sexual abuse here












The bolded is where I am kind of hung up on this issue.  The Disneyfication aspect absolutely belies both Rey and Kylo/Ben's circumstances as set up in the movie.  It would have almost been impossible for Rey to go unmolested on Jakku without this Disney shield, as she seems to have had no "protector" there whatsoever.  Also, she is a hell of a fighter, which could point to prior violating incidents.  Her absolute need for independence points to prior hurts as well.  There were also hints of Unkar being a disgusting lech in the book.  However, I think someone said in one of the other books that some other scavengers helped her when she was younger.  Maybe this protection would be enough to keep her safe enough until she was older, but she's definitely been in fights before.  People have definitely tried to take advantage of her in some way in the past.  The evidence is plain in her bada** Jakku streetfighter reactions.

As for Kylo, it appears that he received no protection where it really counted, as the Big 3 dropped the ball on Snoke because they didn't pay enough attention to him. One reaction to sexual abuse is terrible shame and self-blame and this can lead to people "hiding themselves".  The way he covers himself so completely and in so many protective layers screams to me that he is protecting himself.  And why is he protecting himself? Possibly because some serious harm came to him.  To be totally blunt and frank, Snoke's behavior is a total metaphor for a family friend, long-term child molester.  He is like one of the abusive priests featured in Spotlight, evil and life-destroying because the abuse hits so deep and is so insidious and ongoing.  (I am Catholic, so I am not trying to curse out Catholics here.  But those priests and the people who covered up for them will have a lot to answer for their crimes on the other side, JMHO, because you don't get much more evil than that).  If you take Kylo out of the Disney context, it becomes really easy to envision a scenario where he was sexually abused as a part of breaking him.  And that is what Snoke's whole grooming process is about ... It's been about breaking him.  What is so amazing about Kylo/Ben is that he apparently withstood God knows what for over two decades before cracking.  That's an amazing inner soul.

So back to the Disney issue.  I am not sure how "Disneyfied" Lucasfilm will remain under new management.  We have been talking about how the interrogation and the Snow Fight were metaphorical sex.  That absolutely never happened in SW.  George Lucas was afraid of sex.  This bunch is not.  Also, JJ flat out used language indicating that Han and Leia's preoccupation led to opening where Snoke could get to Ben.  Child predators are masters at finding this kind of opening and weaknesses in the family.  The aforementioned priests always targeted kids who had no dad or where there were other imperfect circumstances.  All this supplicating behavior in the face of Snoke, yet trying to do other things behind his back can also be used in support of showing a very sick, long-term relationship.  I don't think anything is necessarily ongoing or that Snoke himself necessarily ever did anything to him, but it's just that he could have when he was younger ... or he could have permitted someone else, some prior minion, to do something.  Also, all the "I will not be seduced" language absolutely points to the Light and to his attraction and love for Rey.  Sadly, it can also be interpreted as having an additional, darker meaning, that Kylo will not be seduced away from Snoke, with whom he has a very sick relationship.

That all being said, I absolutely agree that nothing like this will ever be explicitly mentioned, but I could see them having a fleeting line that would go over 95% of the audience's heads that hints at the seduction to the dark side consisting of all kinds of methods.  I think a lot of it is going to depend on Rian Johnson.  If Kylo is not being terribly tortured by Snoke at the beginning of Episode VIII, we probably can be assured that Snoke's abuse was limited to mental and dark side manipulation.  However, if he's getting the lightning at the beginning, something the movies would show, and it seems as if this is not a new thing, I think the door is opened that all manner of bad things happened to Kylo/Ben over the past 30 years and the movie would not have to say another word, they would just let the creepiness hang there.

And this of course goes to my not being 100% sold on this trilogy being solely a coming-of-age story at this point.  I definitely think those elements are there, but there was also a grittiness and a sexual subtext in TFA that was never seen before.  Also, all the three main characters have harsh histories, unlike the other 3 leads in the two prior trilogies.  Even Anakin had his mother when he was a slave.  I actually don't know if we have really gotten the feel of where the new LF wants to take this series yet because so much of TFA was a big teaser and callback to the OT.  But the new parts were darker and more realistic than SW of old.  Just the using of a Hades and Persephone romance is new.  Maybe making the man Persephone is new.  Having Han's murder be drawn out and by a crying son is new.  Showing the seediness of Han's smuggling in so much detail is new.  Rian Johnson directed Breaking Bad episodes.  I just think that these new movies are just going to be more complicated and I think that they are going to have layers and layers of subtext.  I think it's going to be a mix of mythology, coming of age and various tropes married to the complex storylines and characterizations we're getting today in other vehicles.  I could be totally wrong, of course, but I just see a lot of new things happening in the new elements of SW.  I just don't know how many of the old rules the new team is going to follow.  As such, I am reserving judgment on all this controversial stuff I have just discussed because I want to get the feel of where Rian is going, because Rian's tone is going to be the future tone.

I'm not saying they are going to go all Deadpool here. They still want to sell merchandise.  But there can be all kinds of subtext that goes over kids' heads.  The movies are also now in the PG-13 category, and I think they will stay there.  Further, part of the reason the prequels were so maligned was because they were so kiddie.  SW also has a significant adult fanbase so they have to serve both markets.  Disney owns Lucasfilm, but it also owns Marvel.  I just think that we will have to wait and see if LF leans more Disney or more Marvel.

If Kylo can be interpreted as being abused in this way, then he might not technically be a virgin, but he would absolutely, positively be a real virgin to genuine and good sexual and romantic attraction and love.  In some ways, an abuse history would actually make him a much more poignant virgin like Whoopi Goldberg's character in The Color Purple because Rey really would be the light of love in the darkness, this healing force, this safe place of love he would have been craving for years.  In that respect, maybe he unmasks to her because he has these hopes for her, that he hopes she will be safe for him.  He has had to protect himself from harm for so long, but now he takes that risk with her.

But for the sake of the argument here, let's say the Disney shield holds and neither of them were sexually abused.  Then for me Kylo's virginity comes down to a few questions. (1) How old was Ben when he started training with Luke?  If he was sent away when he was in his late teens, I think he might not be a virgin, but would be unexperienced.  Being Han Solo's son, I could maybe see Han being that Dad who takes his son to some trusted prostitute on the sly as some transition to manhood, or Han pushing his emo, sensitive son to get a girlfriend, etc.  However, if Ben is sent away before 16, I think virginity becomes more likely, because I think Luke is running a Jedi monastery.  Though I could see a small chance for a scenario where Ben may have had some kind of fledgling romance that never got off the ground or went badly where the girl rejected him or Luke went all "no attachments" on him, but the one true love thing with Rey is starting to convince me over time, so I think this is less likely. (2) How does Snoke view sex? Would Snoke encourage casual, unfeeling sex as a way to desensitize Kylo *and* to make him less likely to fall like a house of cards the first time he sees a hot girl? This is my husband's argument, and also the argument for why Finn might not be a virgin.  I could see an argument for this, because Snoke hates sentiment and wants to burn it out of Kylo.  However, in this scenario, I could also see Kylo/Ben getting sickened by this, because he is so sensitive, and turning himself into the celibate Knight Templar Ren, and covering himself up so completely and wanting to control himself because he is guilty about being with some girls that Snoke threw at him.  Under that scenario, Kylo is not a virgin, but he has remade himself into a priest out of guilt .... But, if Snoke doesn't want Kylo touched, because he wants him so much in his thrall (which can maybe correlate to the above-mentioned abuse scenarios depending on level of Disneyfication) and he wants him pure for his uses and his uses alone, then Kylo is a virgin, either technically or mentally (like in the abuse scenario), and he has to suppress himself ridiculously and in every way to keep every emotion, including attraction in check.  In this scenario his clothing reflects his need to guard against his own urges by making it crazy difficult to undress and/or to protect himself because he has been harmed before.

I initially was "he's definitely not a virgin" camp because of his age and because of his being Han's son and being in a military context for years.  But the clothing thing has been holding me back on this because the KOR could be a Knights Templar, as they are all covered from head to toe.  But otoh, this is SW and people dress in too many clothes usually and maybe all his layers can be explained by being a kind of body armor.

So at this point, I am not sure where I stand.  I do however think that regardless of his virgin status he will be very well aware of "what's what", because he appears to be quite intelligent and knowledgeable about a lot of things and probably doesn't want too many knowledge gaps that would leave him vulnerable.  Also, such knowledge exploration might provide a safety valve for his overall suppression of emotion and urges ... if you get what I mean. Smile

Dang, this is great analysis! What punched me in the gut during the discussion of Snoke's possible lecherous ways with young Kylo was, what if that "You know I can take whatever I want" line is something that's been said by Snoke before, if you get my drift, and that threat is what popped into Kylo's head to try to get her to comply. Blech. The more we dig into the layers of Kylo/Ben the more depressing it gets.
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Re: Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

Post by Kylo Ren's 8-Pack on Tue 29 Mar - 2:43

I don't know about others here, but I have been totally seduced by Kylo Ren.
I spend a lot of time thinking about this character, probably too much time for a fictional creation, but man....he really gets me thinking about all kinds of things.
The depth of this particular character has struck a chord with me in ways I never expected, exspecially from the latest 'Star Wars' film.
Not to down the franchise as I love the OT and liked the PT, but this was a total sideswipe and unexpected.
Never expected this from such a 'marketed' and 'mainstream' element.
I feel like Rey in some respects, being completely surprised by the strange soul beneath that mask.
She was not the only one who felt an 'Awakening'.


Sometimes i'm aware of moments when I know I am spending too much time thinking about this persona, but I can't help it.
There is something there that keeps drawing me in.
Perhaps there is a part of this character I identify with?
Perhaps it's just total enchantment or over enthusiastic interest?
All sorts of things go through ones head when being introduced to such a complex, multi-leveled concept and then becoming totally seduced by it from a intrigue perspective.
I truly feel for those who totally missed what this character is supposed to be all about within the context of the film.
There loss, but it is indeed a shame so many still only see him as just 'the villain'.
Oh how wrong that concept seems to me now...Such a shallow waste!

The beauty of this character is his metaphoric and multi-leveled potential.
We have only begun to understand him.
Thinking about 'what made him the way he is' or 'where will this character go next ' is glorious daydreaming and intoxicating hypothising for the mind.

What feeds that thought process is the amazing community we have here and had 'elsewhere'.
It is entertaining and informative to hear everyone's different opinions and interpretations of the scenes we have all seen and also everyone's thoughts on the characters and their behavior.
Fantastic brain food...but ....i will confess I am totally engrossed.
It's all consuming now.

Hours of reading online.
Not enough hours of sleep.
Too many action figures and framed photos of certain actors on walls ( cough )
Too much pondering and sweet imaginings.

Can others relate...?



Adam Driver, you sly dog.
LOOK at what you have done to me!
( it's all good....no worries, mate! )

I love you
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Re: Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

Post by Reynak on Tue 29 Mar - 2:47

There's still another thing. During the interrogation scene, Kylo enters Rey's mind and she tries to resist, to preserve her thoughts from his invasion, but what is striking is his reaction when Rey enters his mind, because it's so intense and shocking. He is terrified, so terrified he runs away to Snoke leaving alone the girl he chased with so much insistence. He also leaves his mask behind, which is unthinkable for him.

Why? He looks horrified when Rey enters his mind. Is this meant to be read as a sort of metaphor of sex, of being possessed? It doesn't imply rape, but I think it's used as a simil of sexual intercourse. And his reaction is much more striking than hers, he trembles, and shudders, absolutely horrified.

When he was in her mind before, when she said she wouldn't give him anything, that contained a subtex hinting at sex, but not rape either. Sex which she refuses to have with him. She throws him out, and then, when he is in her hands ,so to speak, he trembles like a leaf and runs away from her.

This  happens again in the snowy forest when he chases her first and then they are by the ravine's edge with him pushing (the sabre) and her showing that ecstatic face. Then, like in the interrogation scene, she fights back and wins, wounding him, hurting him and branding him. He also tries to escape like he did before, when he ran to Snoke, but this time she gets him and defeats him. At the end, he looks spent on the snow, very much like a man who's just had sex, also bleeding and branded for ever, so he will never be the same after this.

This would be just subtext, but it works really well, because he is the prince(ss)in the tower, and when maidens have sex for the first time there's often blood. Also that blood, red on white, on the white snow, is often used in stories as a metaphor of a girl losing her virginity.

We don't have a maiden here but a young male, they fight instead of having sex, the heroine is the one who takes the more agressive role and the prince(ss) a more passive one, but it seems to mirror a sexual experience and it contains a lot of imagery used in other stories to convey the loss of a person's virginity.

I haven't fogotten he is a man and not a woman or that what they did was fighting, but considering the apparently implied subtext, that was probably Kylo's symbolic first sexual experince with a woman, Rey. It must have been new for her too, but it was harder for him, which suits his role as the prince(ss).

The way he shuddered and trembled in the interrogation scene may just hint at his fear because this would be his first sexual experience, or even worse, if he is so shaken because he's had traumatic experiences before.

Of course, this would be only subtext, and would easily fly over the heads of most people.


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Re: Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

Post by Saracene on Tue 29 Mar - 2:49

Virgin!Kylo, all the way. Everything about him screams "virgin" to me: austere monkish clothes, bare and minimal personal quarters, contempt for normal human feelings, obsessive one-track mind, desire to be more than a man. He does have a certain swagger in the interrogation scene, but I think it's more along the lines of, I am powerful and important and you're just a scavenger.
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Re: Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

Post by Reynak on Tue 29 Mar - 3:11

Saracene wrote:Virgin!Kylo, all the way. Everything about him screams "virgin" to me: austere monkish clothes, bare and minimal personal quarters, contempt for normal human feelings, obsessive one-track mind, desire to be more than a man. He does have a certain swagger in the interrogation scene, but I think it's more along the lines of, I am powerful and important and you're just a scavenger.

Exactly, I agree, especially with the part in bold.
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Re: Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Tue 29 Mar - 3:25

Reynak wrote:
SoloSideCousin wrote:
Reynak wrote:
AnneNeville wrote:
Reynak wrote:
BastilaBey wrote:
CienaRee wrote:@BastiallaBey,I'm 100% sure Rey's a virgin.She didn't like Finn touching her and in the Before The Awakening novel it's mentioned that Rey never works with other scavengers because she only trusts herself so virgin for sure.
You are probably right, she's described as a loner in that book and Finn is her first friend. If it wasn't a Disney movie, I'd say Rey would have had to do some pretty tragic things in order to survive as a young woman on Jakku but clearly that's not going to be part of her character's canon.

Yeah, I agree that she would probably have suffered nasty experiences if she lived in the real world but the same could probably be said about him if he has been manipulated since childhood by an evil controlling adult who later groomed him because he's such a pure specimen of Force holder. This sounds very creepy to me. Snoke seduced Kylo to the Dark side, Leia chooses this worlds and Kylo says to Snoke he won't be seduced. They choose this world twice.

This is a Disney movie, so I'd say both are virgins, if this was gritty fantasy, or even real life, I'd guess they both could have suffered some type of molestation as kids. His looking so restrained and repressed and her feeling so unnerved when people touch her would suggest that.

@Reynak In past writings, I have noted that Kylo Ren's behavior and self-loathing reminds me strongly of several young men I have known who had been abused as children (and I knew or strongly suspected abuse of a sexual nature). Even his super-strong attachment to Rey connects with my experiences in that area. A very chaotic and painful relationship with sexuality was a side effect of their bad past experiences. Frankly, I think the implication of abuse (whether mental or sexual) is hard to escape, considering the way they set up the story between Ben Solo and predator-Snoke.

I'd like to give my imaginary Kylo a bit more control over his body and consent, I guess. Let him have an awakening.

In fact, this is exactly that I thought although I was cautios to word it because it may be too much and this is something really serious and sad, but yes, I agree with you completely. We won't see anything but it's there, that boy is controlled by Snoke as if he had him on a leash. When Han tries to touch him on the catwalk, when he comes near him, Kylo backs away slightly, just like a mistreated anymal, and his eyes widen, as if expecting physical punishment. That screams abuse to me, not by Han, of course, but by Snoke.

And then we have him dressed like that, covered from head to toe like that, hiding his body's shape like that (so much padding, so many layers of fabric, long robes, that's too much). Add the word "seduced by Snoke" and you have it, that suggests something sexual which would explain why he gives out that virgin vibe. And that is not unheard of in sects and some "religious" communities as regards kids, unfortunately, it's the opposite.

Why does that creeper have those two young guys (Hux and Kylo) at his beck and call instead of having older commanders by his side? He probably has them too, but showing us those attractive youths in preeminent positions in Snoke's ranks gives a very bad feeling. Subtext again, but I think it is there.

Oh man! You are so right with the two young and *beautiful* commanders.  Both Kylo and Hux are absolutely beautiful young men.  Oh yeah, that subtext is there.  I agree with all of this post.  I just wrote a massive post getting into it with a trigger warning.

I've read your post and loved it. Well, the topic is really hard, so I can't say talking about something so terrible is enjoyable, but it's honest, and this is what the movie suggests as subtext. You've nearly made me cry, in fact my eyes got wet while I was reading, especially when you said he unmasked for Rey because he thought that perhaps she would be safe for him, that he could be safe with her. He doesn't expect her to save him, as he no longer has hope or thinks anyone will come to his rescue. But he thinks that, maybe, he can be safe with her and this is so heart-breaking that it moved me in an emotional level. You showed some doubts later in the post, but I think here there is where you have your answer, an answer for all of us.

Another reason I think he was abused, and this probably started very soon, is what he says to his father on that catwalk:


Han: BEN!
Kylo Ren: Han Solo. I've been waiting for this day for a long time.
Han: [slowly walking towards Ren] Take off that mask. You don't need it.
Kylo Ren: What do you think you'll see if I do?
Han: The face of my son.
Kylo Ren: [removes his mask] Your son is gone. He was weak and foolish like his father, so I destroyed him.


He's been waiting for a long time, but why? Many thought that he was waiting for this day to kill his father because he is a heartless killer but his face shows the opposite when he cries and suffers so much. He didn't want to do this, he never did. He tried to avoid meeting Han in SK and perhaps also in Takodana when he left so quickly taking Rey with him, he avoided him because he knew there was no way Snoke would allow him to let Han go unharmed.

What does he mean when he says he's been waiting for so long? I think he's been waiting for his father to come and save him from the Dark, to set him free from Snoke, and that Darkness and Snoke's influence are a metaphor for abuse, this young man was sexualy abused as a kid.

When Han asks him to come home with him, Ben says it's too late. And it's too late because Han could have saved him years ago but now he is too damaged. They will never spell this out in the movie, but I think what you explained is what is implied, your first take on Ben's story is the right one, the most chilling take, unfortunately.

Oh now you have me tearing up! The waiting for his father to come and save him just gets me right in the chest!  It's so sad, so childlike, so despairing.  He thinks he's ruined, and he's so vulnerable to that despair that for a moment he becomes that monster his abuser wished to create and kills his long-wished-for savior. OMG! I read a review saying that the bridge scene turned into a dark Jacobean tragedy.  I don't have a lot of experience with writing from that era, but I have a feeling there must have been heartwrenching familial tragedies written in that time.

As for my undercutting my argument a little bit, strangely, you can probably blame that on me being a lawyer.  My posts are generally not final pronouncements.  They are usually a thinking out loud work in progress.  And there is something about legal training, at least mine, that makes me compulsive about addressing every possibility that I can think of at that moment.

However, in my heart, like @FrolickingFizzgig, from the moment I heard that Snoke was in his head since he was a small child, this whole thing seemed like insiduous and evil sexual abuse to me, if only metaphorically.  And when I say metaphorically, I mean to say that under the understanding that Snoke was just whispering in Ben's ear like a ghost, but as more comes out, I am getting more of the feeling that Snoke may have been a real person who hung around ... and if that's the case, then the possibility for sexual abuse becomes all the more real to me.

When I read your post saying that you were touched by my saying that he felt "safe" with Rey and that you felt I had found an "answer", but that I had backed away from it later, I decided to read my post again, because I do write in this very stream of consciousness way.  But first I finished reading the rest of the thread, and looked at that clip that @AnneNeville put up showing Kylo looking at her mouth, and that hit me hard.  Adam Driver is an extremely intelligent actor, and I respect his acting choices immensely because he usually never puts a foot wrong ... and Kylo looked like an abused kid looking at the light in that clip.

So after that I reread my post, and I think you are right.  I think that his unmasking for Rey because something about her felt "safe" is the most compelling argument, that it is an answer because it has the most emotional punch.  A young man, manipulated and tortured in every disgusting way possible until he became a zombie-like weapon of war for his predator suddenly seeing this light in the darkness, suddenly actually wanting something pure *and* healthy *and* sexual with this girl, this force sensitive girl, who he has probably dreamed of as his equal, as his partner, is actually like a kind of miracle for him.  But at the same time, it is also incredibly tragic, because though he wants something with this girl, he has been wounded and mutilated so badly that he has no clue anymore as to how he should try to achieve this relationship, and in the end he messes up so much that this girl in the light slashes his face and rejects him outright, which has to hurt like hell, but also, in his messed up mind, probably computes to something that he deserves.  I am afraid that this, along with what he did to Han, will make him retreat into his self-loathing all the more for a while, because when he tried to trust, when he tried to find risk showing himself, it all went so wrong, and he will know it all went so wrong because he is totally f***** up.  It's a very depressing place to be and will put him at more risk from Snoke and the Dark Side and it will be hard for him to try again.  But I hope the light is screaming at him so loudly that he can't help but try again, but he will need a tremendous amount of help. That's where the force bond becomes almost a necessity, because she will need to see into him to see where he is coming from.  It also adds to the evidence that the entire trilogy is about saving Ben Solo from the darkness.
.
You know Ren is such a contradiction.  I think he is savvy about a great many things, including manipulation and politics and battle tactics and survival and reading minds, and, tragically, probably the many technicalities of the dark side of sex, but he has been entrenched in this world long enough that he is like a babe in the woods when it comes to genuine love.  He is like a warped plant that needs to be brought out into the light ... Like you suggest @Reynak, it may be a healing Rey(Ray) that does that.
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Re: Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

Post by Sylvia Snow on Tue 29 Mar - 3:53

SoloSideCousin wrote:
Reynak wrote:
BastilaBey wrote:
CienaRee wrote:@BastiallaBey,I'm 100% sure Rey's a virgin.She didn't like Finn touching her and in the Before The Awakening novel it's mentioned that Rey never works with other scavengers because she only trusts herself so virgin for sure.
You are probably right, she's described as a loner in that book and Finn is her first friend. If it wasn't a Disney movie, I'd say Rey would have had to do some pretty tragic things in order to survive as a young woman on Jakku but clearly that's not going to be part of her character's canon.

Yeah, I agree that she would probably have suffered nasty experiences if she lived in the real world but the same could probably be said about him if he has been manipulated since childhood by an evil controlling adult who later groomed him because he's such a pure specimen of Force holder. This sounds very creepy to me. Snoke seduced Kylo to the Dark side, Leia chooses this worlds and Kylo says to Snoke he won't be seduced. They choose this world twice.

This is a Disney movie, so I'd say both are virgins, if this was gritty fantasy, or even real life, I'd guess they both could have suffered some type of molestation as kids. His looking so restrained and repressed and her feeling so unnerved when people touch her would suggest that.

TRIGGER WARNING: Talk about sexual abuse here












The bolded is where I am kind of hung up on this issue.  The Disneyfication aspect absolutely belies both Rey and Kylo/Ben's circumstances as set up in the movie.  It would have almost been impossible for Rey to go unmolested on Jakku without this Disney shield, as she seems to have had no "protector" there whatsoever.  Also, she is a hell of a fighter, which could point to prior violating incidents.  Her absolute need for independence points to prior hurts as well.  There were also hints of Unkar being a disgusting lech in the book.  However, I think someone said in one of the other books that some other scavengers helped her when she was younger.  Maybe this protection would be enough to keep her safe enough until she was older, but she's definitely been in fights before.  People have definitely tried to take advantage of her in some way in the past.  The evidence is plain in her bada** Jakku streetfighter reactions.

As for Kylo, it appears that he received no protection where it really counted, as the Big 3 dropped the ball on Snoke because they didn't pay enough attention to him. One reaction to sexual abuse is terrible shame and self-blame and this can lead to people "hiding themselves".  The way he covers himself so completely and in so many protective layers screams to me that he is protecting himself.  And why is he protecting himself? Possibly because some serious harm came to him.  To be totally blunt and frank, Snoke's behavior is a total metaphor for a family friend, long-term child molester.  He is like one of the abusive priests featured in Spotlight, evil and life-destroying because the abuse hits so deep and is so insidious and ongoing.  (I am Catholic, so I am not trying to curse out Catholics here.  But those priests and the people who covered up for them will have a lot to answer for their crimes on the other side, JMHO, because you don't get much more evil than that).  If you take Kylo out of the Disney context, it becomes really easy to envision a scenario where he was sexually abused as a part of breaking him.  And that is what Snoke's whole grooming process is about ... It's been about breaking him.  What is so amazing about Kylo/Ben is that he apparently withstood God knows what for over two decades before cracking.  That's an amazing inner soul.

So back to the Disney issue.  I am not sure how "Disneyfied" Lucasfilm will remain under new management.  We have been talking about how the interrogation and the Snow Fight were metaphorical sex.  That absolutely never happened in SW.  George Lucas was afraid of sex.  This bunch is not.  Also, JJ flat out used language indicating that Han and Leia's preoccupation led to opening where Snoke could get to Ben.  Child predators are masters at finding this kind of opening and weaknesses in the family.  The aforementioned priests always targeted kids who had no dad or where there were other imperfect circumstances.  All this supplicating behavior in the face of Snoke, yet trying to do other things behind his back can also be used in support of showing a very sick, long-term relationship.  I don't think anything is necessarily ongoing or that Snoke himself necessarily ever did anything to him, but it's just that he could have when he was younger ... or he could have permitted someone else, some prior minion, to do something.  Also, all the "I will not be seduced" language absolutely points to the Light and to his attraction and love for Rey.  Sadly, it can also be interpreted as having an additional, darker meaning, that Kylo will not be seduced away from Snoke, with whom he has a very sick relationship.

That all being said, I absolutely agree that nothing like this will ever be explicitly mentioned, but I could see them having a fleeting line that would go over 95% of the audience's heads that hints at the seduction to the dark side consisting of all kinds of methods.  I think a lot of it is going to depend on Rian Johnson.  If Kylo is not being terribly tortured by Snoke at the beginning of Episode VIII, we probably can be assured that Snoke's abuse was limited to mental and dark side manipulation.  However, if he's getting the lightning at the beginning, something the movies would show, and it seems as if this is not a new thing, I think the door is opened that all manner of bad things happened to Kylo/Ben over the past 30 years and the movie would not have to say another word, they would just let the creepiness hang there.

And this of course goes to my not being 100% sold on this trilogy being solely a coming-of-age story at this point.  I definitely think those elements are there, but there was also a grittiness and a sexual subtext in TFA that was never seen before.  Also, all the three main characters have harsh histories, unlike the other 3 leads in the two prior trilogies.  Even Anakin had his mother when he was a slave.  I actually don't know if we have really gotten the feel of where the new LF wants to take this series yet because so much of TFA was a big teaser and callback to the OT.  But the new parts were darker and more realistic than SW of old.  Just the using of a Hades and Persephone romance is new.  Maybe making the man Persephone is new.  Having Han's murder be drawn out and by a crying son is new.  Showing the seediness of Han's smuggling in so much detail is new.  Rian Johnson directed Breaking Bad episodes.  I just think that these new movies are just going to be more complicated and I think that they are going to have layers and layers of subtext.  I think it's going to be a mix of mythology, coming of age and various tropes married to the complex storylines and characterizations we're getting today in other vehicles.  I could be totally wrong, of course, but I just see a lot of new things happening in the new elements of SW.  I just don't know how many of the old rules the new team is going to follow.  As such, I am reserving judgment on all this controversial stuff I have just discussed because I want to get the feel of where Rian is going, because Rian's tone is going to be the future tone.

I'm not saying they are going to go all Deadpool here. They still want to sell merchandise.  But there can be all kinds of subtext that goes over kids' heads.  The movies are also now in the PG-13 category, and I think they will stay there.  Further, part of the reason the prequels were so maligned was because they were so kiddie.  SW also has a significant adult fanbase so they have to serve both markets.  Disney owns Lucasfilm, but it also owns Marvel.  I just think that we will have to wait and see if LF leans more Disney or more Marvel.

If Kylo can be interpreted as being abused in this way, then he might not technically be a virgin, but he would absolutely, positively be a real virgin to genuine and good sexual and romantic attraction and love.  In some ways, an abuse history would actually make him a much more poignant virgin like Whoopi Goldberg's character in The Color Purple because Rey really would be the light of love in the darkness, this healing force, this safe place of love he would have been craving for years.  In that respect, maybe he unmasks to her because he has these hopes for her, that he hopes she will be safe for him.  He has had to protect himself from harm for so long, but now he takes that risk with her.

But for the sake of the argument here, let's say the Disney shield holds and neither of them were sexually abused.  Then for me Kylo's virginity comes down to a few questions. (1) How old was Ben when he started training with Luke?  If he was sent away when he was in his late teens, I think he might not be a virgin, but would be unexperienced.  Being Han Solo's son, I could maybe see Han being that Dad who takes his son to some trusted prostitute on the sly as some transition to manhood, or Han pushing his emo, sensitive son to get a girlfriend, etc.  However, if Ben is sent away before 16, I think virginity becomes more likely, because I think Luke is running a Jedi monastery.  Though I could see a small chance for a scenario where Ben may have had some kind of fledgling romance that never got off the ground or went badly where the girl rejected him or Luke went all "no attachments" on him, but the one true love thing with Rey is starting to convince me over time, so I think this is less likely. (2) How does Snoke view sex? Would Snoke encourage casual, unfeeling sex as a way to desensitize Kylo *and* to make him less likely to fall like a house of cards the first time he sees a hot girl? This is my husband's argument, and also the argument for why Finn might not be a virgin.  I could see an argument for this, because Snoke hates sentiment and wants to burn it out of Kylo.  However, in this scenario, I could also see Kylo/Ben getting sickened by this, because he is so sensitive, and turning himself into the celibate Knight Templar Ren, and covering himself up so completely and wanting to control himself because he is guilty about being with some girls that Snoke threw at him.  Under that scenario, Kylo is not a virgin, but he has remade himself into a priest out of guilt .... But, if Snoke doesn't want Kylo touched, because he wants him so much in his thrall (which can maybe correlate to the above-mentioned abuse scenarios depending on level of Disneyfication) and he wants him pure for his uses and his uses alone, then Kylo is a virgin, either technically or mentally (like in the abuse scenario), and he has to suppress himself ridiculously and in every way to keep every emotion, including attraction in check.  In this scenario his clothing reflects his need to guard against his own urges by making it crazy difficult to undress and/or to protect himself because he has been harmed before.

I initially was "he's definitely not a virgin" camp because of his age and because of his being Han's son and being in a military context for years.  But the clothing thing has been holding me back on this because the KOR could be a Knights Templar, as they are all covered from head to toe.  But otoh, this is SW and people dress in too many clothes usually and maybe all his layers can be explained by being a kind of body armor.

So at this point, I am not sure where I stand.  I do however think that regardless of his virgin status he will be very well aware of "what's what", because he appears to be quite intelligent and knowledgeable about a lot of things and probably doesn't want too many knowledge gaps that would leave him vulnerable.  Also, such knowledge exploration might provide a safety valve for his overall suppression of emotion and urges ... if you get what I mean. Smile

      Wow, very deep analysis I love you , it's so disturbing to think what Snoke had or could possibly done to Kylo No. I don't remember where I read this but one of the producer team said that when they create Snoke, they want to make him look very damage as a result of using the Dark Side but at some point when he was younger, he's a handsome man.

     And that make me think, Han and Leia must have known him before but there's no way they would ever let Ben near Snoke if he's looking like this pale, disfigure perv in the movie, so Snoke could used to look very different from the Snoke we known, charming even. He could gained Leia trusts ( In the movie he refer to her by name and it's weird also Han react when Leia said it was Snoke who seduced Kylo is weird too) then able to spend times with young Ben and God know what he done to him.

     The scene where Kylo meeting with Snoke, there'are some dim lights shining down to Kylo but Snoke is this tall, dark figure that come in between, blocking the Light and Kylo as if Snoke, sarcastically showing Kylo hope only to keep it out off his reach and remain Kylo that there's this Darkness looming over Kylo
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Re: Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

Post by Guest on Tue 29 Mar - 8:48

Kylo Ren is not a virgin because First Order agenda is this:



Right? Oh good old days in our old thread, it was a fun filled place *sighs*


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Re: Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Tue 29 Mar - 10:00

The abuse is metaphorical. There is no way Ren was actually sexually abused in my opinion, not even if Snoke was a living, breathing person. It's too much for a movie like this (waaaaay too much). The metaphor is there and I don't think they're going beyond it.
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Re: Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

Post by vaderito on Tue 29 Mar - 10:39

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:The abuse is metaphorical. There is no way Ren was actually sexually abused in my opinion, not even if Snoke was a living, breathing person. It's too much for a movie like this (waaaaay too much). The metaphor is there and I don't think they're going beyond it.

Exactly. It was abuse thought the Force which must be high level of violation from FS POV. Heck, they presented Rey and Kylo Force Bond, or whatever was going on, as something very intimate, so having some disgusting old Dark Sider roam through little kid's Force channels is just horrible. It's a metaphor because you can read into it certain subtext but, yes, it was never physical.
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Re: Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

Post by guardienne on Tue 29 Mar - 11:24

i haven't been able to make up my mind re:virginity. i haven't read the whole thread but there's been some interesting discussion re: sexual abuse.

if he has been metaphorically sexually abused, he's not a virgin, but he would know the kind of metaphorical sex he's having as something that is to do with the abuse of power. i wonder if for example, the get-up he's wearing is done at snoke's insistence. i wonder if the power abuse snoke has been practising extends to making him have sex as well.

i think i'm gonna opt for the uneasy option that he's not a virgin but that sex to him has been an expression of being powerless. that said, i don't think him strapping rey down is a power fantasy per se, i think that is a convoluted situation of having to do a job as well.
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Re: Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

Post by vaderito on Tue 29 Mar - 12:50

he wasn't sexually abused. metaphorically maybe (if abuse thought the Force could be considered a form of that considering that Force bonds can be quite intimate) but going for an angle and actually putting it in text are two different things. And no one put that in text nor they will.
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Re: Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

Post by guardienne on Tue 29 Mar - 13:37

i know he wasn't sexually abused, just like i know he doesn't sexually abuse rey... but it's also there, if that makes any sense.

he's either scared of having his intimacy violated (snoke can sense his thoughts) - mentally and physically. it's sort of an uneasy mixture.
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Re: Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

Post by Little_Boots on Tue 29 Mar - 13:38

Someone on Tumblr pointed out a topic that I found very interesting.
When Rey looks at the old lady, I believe she was looking at the woman and thinking "this will be me some day". I don't think she was looking at her and seeing someone she recognized.
Meanwhile, right before this, Kylo Ren looks at San Tekka (a monk?) and says "look how old you've become".
Both Rey and Kylo are seeing their own self if nothing happens to them. If nothing happens to change the future.
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Re: Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

Post by BlackIsTheColor on Tue 29 Mar - 13:41

Totally virgin. I give credit to his Solo DNA for the smirk, pouty face, intense gaze and glorious hair. lol
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Jedi Youngling
Jedi Youngling

Messages : 35
Likes : 1115
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

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