Rian's New Rules

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Re: Rian's New Rules

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sat 1 Jul - 17:26

@snufkin wrote:@Moonlight13 - given some of those videos, we've suspected that they lurk here on the search of content to steal new topics.
@snufkin

Oh yeah, there's definitely a Mike Zeroh "exclusive" mind-blowing new video coming about the possibility of time travel/alternate timelines in the ST.
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Re: Rian's New Rules

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sat 1 Jul - 19:23

Sorry for the DP, but I just thought of something...

Until it was debunked by the official timeline, a lot of people thought that there was a connection between Ben's fall/the temple massacre/Rey ending up on Jakku (a lot of people who aren't aware of the debunking still believe this).

What if the connection was actually between whatever happened to get Ben sent to Luke and whatever caused Rey to end up on Jakku?

That would put Ben around 15 when he got sent away. And it would also tie Ben and Rey's incidents of parental abandonment/rejection directly together.

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Re: Rian's New Rules

Post by Helix on Sat 1 Jul - 19:42

Only the 'best' from our 'favorite' Star Wars 'expert' Mike.
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Re: Rian's New Rules

Post by IoJovi on Sat 1 Jul - 19:51

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:Sorry for the DP, but I just thought of something...

Until it was debunked by the official timeline, a lot of people thought that there was a connection between Ben's fall/the temple massacre/Rey ending up on Jakku  (a lot of people who aren't aware of the debunking still believe this).

What if the connection was actually between whatever happened to get Ben sent to Luke and whatever caused Rey to end up on Jakku?  

That would put Ben around 15 when he got sent away. And it would also tie Ben and Rey's incidents of parental abandonment/rejection directly together.

@ISeeAnIsland

Holy sith.  Now you are cooking with gas.  cheers

It would certainly add some depth to that "mysterious connection" if both Rey and Ben felt that abandonment at the same time.
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Re: Rian's New Rules

Post by snufkin on Sat 1 Jul - 19:57

@Piper Maru wrote:
@snufkin wrote:
@Piper Maru wrote:I'm a huge fan of Fringe (I like it waaay more than Lost) and I definitely see a pattern here: all the three directors have worked with the idea of parallel dimensions/connection through time & space between partners.

@Piper Maru

Fringe does a far better job in writing a story where the themes of fate and parallel lives/universes fits in with the overall story. I definitely understood what the Hell they were talking about and bought the characterizations/relationships than I ever did with Lost. It's just that Lost had some kind of place in pop culture that made people stick with it versus how Fringe was always more low profile.

Obviously I'm being silly and tongue-in-cheek with some of my comments on this topic, but I do think that there will be a theme to do with a larger will of the Force. Which likely will be shown as part of Rey grappling with her path and whatever the story is about her (likely deceased due to the overarching Force plot) family. Also with Ben, that he may be somebody who chose the path he was on because he felt like he had no other choice. And that whatever happens between the two of them is fated/can't be avoided. JJ did compare them to two trains on the same track headed to collide with one another.
@snufkin

About Lost: oh, it's definitely a far more more influential show in pop culture than Fringe was. Even in the academy, there are many influential authors in Media Studies that consider Lost the turning point of contemporary television (Jason Mittel, Henry Jemkins and Arlindo Machado, particularly).

On a side note, I'm genuinely intrigued by this convergence of themes between J.J., Rian and Colin. It's something I never thought about before. I'm not expecting conventional time travel or multiverse stories, but now I'm thinking about the possibility of some sort of time manipulation as a Force ability. If you think about it, the Forceback already is a time manipulation of sorts; Rey touches the saber and is thrown in a vortex between past, present and future.

Remember when they told us that Rey's role in the Force was extremely important to the Galaxy? Having the ability to "see through" time seems to be pretty important to me.
@Piper Maru

It just occurred to me, Yoda's line to Luke in ESB is probably what Rey experienced in Maz's basement,  “Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future…the past. Old friends long gone.”

And while the "Rey is a survivor of the Jedi Academy massacre" never occurred to me when watching the movie or reading theories afterwards, it has occurred to me thanks to the Force vision that likely there is a connection between whatever caused her abandonment/her parents' disappearance and whatever freaked Han and Leia out enough to send Ben away to Luke. That would mean he spent ages 15-23 off with his uncle instead of his parents, so his 9 years and her 16 years each on their own sets up another parallel between the two of them.
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Re: Rian's New Rules

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 1 Jul - 20:57

@IoJovi wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:Sorry for the DP, but I just thought of something...

Until it was debunked by the official timeline, a lot of people thought that there was a connection between Ben's fall/the temple massacre/Rey ending up on Jakku  (a lot of people who aren't aware of the debunking still believe this).

What if the connection was actually between whatever happened to get Ben sent to Luke and whatever caused Rey to end up on Jakku?  

That would put Ben around 15 when he got sent away. And it would also tie Ben and Rey's incidents of parental abandonment/rejection directly together.

@ISeeAnIsland

Holy sith.  Now you are cooking with gas.  cheers

It would certainly add some depth to that "mysterious connection" if both Rey and Ben felt that abandonment at the same time.
@IoJovi

Right. This is the kind of thing, along with soul communication from other realms (the force ghosts), Dagobah and Mortis experiences, Edmund/White Witch between planes, sliding doors/change in a moment in time, the force pushing people together, that we were speculating about in our brainstorming. I don't think anyone was advocating for some kind of Marty McFly kind of situation where Ben is suddenly a young JFK type just graduating from the prestigious Hosnian School of Government and he meets a princess advocating for her desert world, lol.

KK hired three directors who all did something with timelines, alternate realities, different planes of existence. Now maybe that is just a coincidence and something else holds them together, but IMO it is a question worth exploring.

And tbh, SW is already screwing with time and place. Did Luke just get a weekend intensive or does time work differently in Dagobah? Pablo heavily hinted that time doesn't work normally on Dagobah. Time and space were certainly a lot more fluid in the Mortis space. That may very well be the case in the tree on Ahch-to as well. A rumor said that TLJ would be very like Luke's cave experience on Dagobah. There are portals to other planes in the comics. The force ghosts go to some other place when not hanging with Luke. Rey gets transported through several moments in time in an instant in the Forceback. Obi-Wan talks to her directly from someplace else. Rey is extremely adept. Rey and Kylo already have some familiarity with each other somehow. The Raiders of the Lost Ark camera work indicates something major and mystical will go done on Ahch-to. At the very least Rey is going to have some kind of insane visionary experience there. That is already in the trailer. The orbs, which might be the same orbs from the comics, have a an encounter with Rey. None of us knows what is up ... but something is up. There is just too much of this kind of mystical thing there.
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Re: Rian's New Rules

Post by Helix on Sat 1 Jul - 21:17

SW is more mysticism and fantasy under a science fiction guise, so if they make it more of a Force thing than, like stated above, a Marty Mcfly Back to the Future thing it could work. the whole ST and new Disney canon have really been experimenting with weird Force things and changing what we thought we knew about it. Seems kinda obvious, if not downright implied by promo material and what not.
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Re: Rian's New Rules

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Sat 1 Jul - 21:17

@snufkin wrote:
@Piper Maru wrote:
@snufkin wrote:
@Piper Maru wrote:I'm a huge fan of Fringe (I like it waaay more than Lost) and I definitely see a pattern here: all the three directors have worked with the idea of parallel dimensions/connection through time & space between partners.

@Piper Maru

Fringe does a far better job in writing a story where the themes of fate and parallel lives/universes fits in with the overall story. I definitely understood what the Hell they were talking about and bought the characterizations/relationships than I ever did with Lost. It's just that Lost had some kind of place in pop culture that made people stick with it versus how Fringe was always more low profile.

Obviously I'm being silly and tongue-in-cheek with some of my comments on this topic, but I do think that there will be a theme to do with a larger will of the Force. Which likely will be shown as part of Rey grappling with her path and whatever the story is about her (likely deceased due to the overarching Force plot) family. Also with Ben, that he may be somebody who chose the path he was on because he felt like he had no other choice. And that whatever happens between the two of them is fated/can't be avoided. JJ did compare them to two trains on the same track headed to collide with one another.
@snufkin

About Lost: oh, it's definitely a far more more influential show in pop culture than Fringe was. Even in the academy, there are many influential authors in Media Studies that consider Lost the turning point of contemporary television (Jason Mittel, Henry Jemkins and Arlindo Machado, particularly).

On a side note, I'm genuinely intrigued by this convergence of themes between J.J., Rian and Colin. It's something I never thought about before. I'm not expecting conventional time travel or multiverse stories, but now I'm thinking about the possibility of some sort of time manipulation as a Force ability. If you think about it, the Forceback already is a time manipulation of sorts; Rey touches the saber and is thrown in a vortex between past, present and future.

Remember when they told us that Rey's role in the Force was extremely important to the Galaxy? Having the ability to "see through" time seems to be pretty important to me.
@Piper Maru

It just occurred to me, Yoda's line to Luke in ESB is probably what Rey experienced in Maz's basement,  “Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future…the past. Old friends long gone.”

And while the "Rey is a survivor of the Jedi Academy massacre" never occurred to me when watching the movie or reading theories afterwards, it has occurred to me thanks to the Force vision that likely there is a connection between whatever caused her abandonment/her parents' disappearance and whatever freaked Han and Leia out enough to send Ben away to Luke. That would mean he spent ages 15-23 off with his uncle instead of his parents, so his 9 years and her 16 years each on their own sets up another parallel between the two of them.
@snufkin

Makes sense because in Bloodline, Leia doesn't seem too worried about Luke and Ben even though no one has heard from them in a while. I kept wondering how she wasn't losing her mind with worry, but I guess if Ben had been with Luke for years already, she trusted their situation. To miss out on your kid's development from a boy to a man seems sad, but I could see them setting that scenario up as a parallel to Rey's timeline.
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Re: Rian's New Rules

Post by snufkin on Sat 1 Jul - 21:41

@Cowgirlsamurai - I <3 Leia and she's the underdog in Bloodline going up against the different factions who are likely the big alliance of baddies in TLJ. But each time Claudia Grey writes a sentence about how she looks at ______ younger character and is reminded of Ben, the more times that happened, the more disturbed I felt. Like he was a pet that kept chewing up the furniture, so she sent it off to go live with her brother out in the country. A couple people here have mentioned being a little disturbed that all of the discussions she and Han have about her retirement involve recapturing their glory days of traveling and screwing across the galaxy. With no mention of going to see Ben. There's enough evidence between Bloodline and Empire's End to suggest how much she loves her kid and the bond that the two of them have. But it comes off like a very WASP-y type situation where the parents pack their kids off to a boarding school for the business of molding them into adults.
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Re: Rian's New Rules

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sat 1 Jul - 22:40

@snufkin wrote:@Cowgirlsamurai - I <3 Leia and she's the underdog in Bloodline going up against the different factions who are likely the big alliance of baddies in TLJ. But each time Claudia Grey writes a sentence about how she looks at ______ younger character and is reminded of Ben, the more times that happened, the more disturbed I felt. Like he was a pet that kept chewing up the furniture, so she sent it off to go live with her brother out in the country. A couple people here have mentioned being a little disturbed that all of the discussions she and Han have about her retirement involve recapturing their glory days of traveling and screwing across the galaxy. With no mention of going to see Ben. There's enough evidence between Bloodline and Empire's End to suggest how much she loves her kid and the bond that the two of them have. But it comes off like a very WASP-y type situation where the parents pack their kids off to a boarding school for the business of molding them into adults.
@snufkin

Right. You kind of get the impression that Han and Leia didn't know how to deal with Ben, so they more or less pawned him off on Luke. I know that that statement might come across as throwing the OT under the bus, but really, that's how it sort of came across in Bloodline.

I'm dying to find out what Luke and Ben's relationship was like, particularly before Ben turned. I mean, you've possibly got a 15-year-old full of teenage attitude (plus whatever was going on behind the scenes with Snoke, etc) getting sent against his will to this "mythical" uncle who potentially has a bunch of acolytes who revere him. That right there seems like a recipe for disaster.
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Re: Rian's New Rules

Post by reylo1992 on Sat 1 Jul - 23:07

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@snufkin wrote:@Cowgirlsamurai - I <3 Leia and she's the underdog in Bloodline going up against the different factions who are likely the big alliance of baddies in TLJ. But each time Claudia Grey writes a sentence about how she looks at ______ younger character and is reminded of Ben, the more times that happened, the more disturbed I felt. Like he was a pet that kept chewing up the furniture, so she sent it off to go live with her brother out in the country. A couple people here have mentioned being a little disturbed that all of the discussions she and Han have about her retirement involve recapturing their glory days of traveling and screwing across the galaxy. With no mention of going to see Ben. There's enough evidence between Bloodline and Empire's End to suggest how much she loves her kid and the bond that the two of them have. But it comes off like a very WASP-y type situation where the parents pack their kids off to a boarding school for the business of molding them into adults.
@snufkin

Right. You kind of get the impression that Han and Leia didn't know how to deal with Ben, so they more or less pawned him off on Luke. I know that that statement might come across as throwing the OT under the bus, but really, that's how it sort of came across in Bloodline.

I'm dying to find out what Luke and Ben's relationship was like, particularly before Ben turned. I mean, you've possibly got a 15-year-old full of teenage attitude (plus whatever was going on behind the scenes with Snoke, etc) getting sent against his will to this "mythical" uncle who potentially has a bunch of acolytes who revere him. That right there seems like a recipe for disaster.
@ISeeAnIsland

By the way, I am asking myself whether it is canon or not that Ben arrived at the academy around his 15th year Question This is also what I imagine rather than having him sent at a early age. However, I don't remember that I saw something confirming my impression. As for Leia and Ben's relationship, I tend to believe that like the Beast of the 2017 version, Ben has a strong emotional bond with his mother. especially when the TFA novel describes how thinking of his mother brings him tears during the bridge scene. Found the initial version of the "Days in the sun" clip a couple days ago. Strangely, the mother and her song reminded me of Leia:

However, it's hard for me to imagine Han and Leia as parents. Not the kind of couple I would imagine with a kid to be honest.
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Re: Rian's New Rules

Post by snufkin on Sun 2 Jul - 0:44

@reylo1992 wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@snufkin wrote:@Cowgirlsamurai - I <3 Leia and she's the underdog in Bloodline going up against the different factions who are likely the big alliance of baddies in TLJ. But each time Claudia Grey writes a sentence about how she looks at ______ younger character and is reminded of Ben, the more times that happened, the more disturbed I felt. Like he was a pet that kept chewing up the furniture, so she sent it off to go live with her brother out in the country. A couple people here have mentioned being a little disturbed that all of the discussions she and Han have about her retirement involve recapturing their glory days of traveling and screwing across the galaxy. With no mention of going to see Ben. There's enough evidence between Bloodline and Empire's End to suggest how much she loves her kid and the bond that the two of them have. But it comes off like a very WASP-y type situation where the parents pack their kids off to a boarding school for the business of molding them into adults.
@snufkin

Right. You kind of get the impression that Han and Leia didn't know how to deal with Ben, so they more or less pawned him off on Luke. I know that that statement might come across as throwing the OT under the bus, but really, that's how it sort of came across in Bloodline.

I'm dying to find out what Luke and Ben's relationship was like, particularly before Ben turned. I mean, you've possibly got a 15-year-old full of teenage attitude (plus whatever was going on behind the scenes with Snoke, etc) getting sent against his will to this "mythical" uncle who potentially has a bunch of acolytes who revere him. That right there seems like a recipe for disaster.
@ISeeAnIsland

By the way, I am asking myself whether it is canon or not that Ben arrived at the academy around his 15th year Question This is also what I imagine rather than having him sent at a early age. However, I don't remember that I saw something confirming my impression. As for Leia and Ben's relationship, I tend to believe that like the Beast of the 2017 version, Ben has a strong emotional bond with his mother. especially when the TFA novel describes how thinking of his mother brings him tears during the bridge scene. Found the initial version of the "Days in the sun" clip a couple days ago. Strangely, the mother and her song reminded me of Leia:

However, it's hard for me to imagine Han and Leia as parents. Not the kind of couple I would imagine with a kid to be honest.

@ISeeanIsland - they're playing it close to the vest about when he went to be with Luke. Like you can guess that whatever happened for his defection was when he was 23. But we're not going to know until the movie how long he was with Luke. However it's not hard to guess that it wasn't a relationship where Luke showed up to take him fishing.

@reylo1992 - I know that a lot of fans are mad about what JJ and Kasdan (who wrote their romance so he gets some say IMO) have said about Han and Leia as parents. But they seem like they'd be a couple who had an affair during wartime but then parted on good terms with some regrets because it wouldn't work out during the peace. I have an easier idea thinking that she would've continued with the path her adoptive parents had trained her for, marrying somebody for more of a strategic alliance/suited to her path in life. It feels like the conclusion they came to about how those two would be in a conventional marriage likely spelled troubled for a highly sensitive only child. And you know that part of the rift between Han and Ben is that Ben didn't want to be sent away but Han deferred to Leia on the decision because she had the more conventional/privileged upbringing between the two of them.
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Re: Rian's New Rules

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 2 Jul - 1:01

@reylo1992 - It's never been stated in canon when Ben was sent to Luke. A lot of us have guessed that it was in adolescence for a few reasons:

* Adolescence is often when major "behavior problems" pop up. MSW heard rumblings of Ben "falling in with a bad crowd" before being sent away, which would seem to point to him being a teenager.
* It would make Han and Leia look AWFUL if they'd sent Ben away as a young child. Not knowing what to do with an out-of-control teenager is a little more understandable than, say, sending away a 6-year-old.
* If my guess is correct, and whatever incident that got Ben sent away is somehow connected to Rey ending up alone on Jakku, then that would have likely happened when Ben was 15.

But we'll see. Who knows.
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Re: Rian's New Rules

Post by Helix on Sun 2 Jul - 1:52

Really need to re-read Bloodlines, one of the best novels of the new EU. Really hope we get more novels of that caliber around the ST era, I know many of us have imagined a Claudia-penned Rey/Kylo novel. Laughing I'd love one going in-depth about Kylo's troubled teen years and his early FO days.
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Re: Rian's New Rules

Post by snufkin on Sun 2 Jul - 2:35

@Helix - really hope that it ends up that she's writing any of the tie-in novels for the movies.

So this is the quote from Yoda which I suspect explains what Rey's Force vision was. The clip edits in pieces from TFA, including her. While it's likely not their intent to show it other than Luke's PoV, it's a nice illustration of what we've been discussing here

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Re: Rian's New Rules

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sun 2 Jul - 8:46

Just started reading the Guardian of the Whills book.  Check out this sentence with Chirrut as narrator:

" ... the long outer wall of the Temple of the Kyber that was forever condemned to be shielded from sunlight. This, too, had meaning. For the light to exist, there must be dark.  For the Force there must be balance."
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Re: Rian's New Rules

Post by Piper Maru on Sun 2 Jul - 13:18

@SoloSideCousin wrote:Just started reading the Guardian of the Whills book.  Check out this sentence with Chirrut as narrator:

" ... the long outer wall of the Temple of the Kyber that was forever condemned to be shielded from sunlight. This, too, had meaning. For the light to exist, there must be dark.  For the Force there must be balance."
@SoloSideCousin

Oooooh.

"Light... (cue Rey's Theme).... Darkness (cue Kylo's Theme)... The Balance (cue triumphal music)."
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Re: Rian's New Rules

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 2 Jul - 14:37

@snufkin wrote:
@reylo1992 wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@snufkin wrote:@Cowgirlsamurai - I <3 Leia and she's the underdog in Bloodline going up against the different factions who are likely the big alliance of baddies in TLJ. But each time Claudia Grey writes a sentence about how she looks at ______ younger character and is reminded of Ben, the more times that happened, the more disturbed I felt. Like he was a pet that kept chewing up the furniture, so she sent it off to go live with her brother out in the country. A couple people here have mentioned being a little disturbed that all of the discussions she and Han have about her retirement involve recapturing their glory days of traveling and screwing across the galaxy. With no mention of going to see Ben. There's enough evidence between Bloodline and Empire's End to suggest how much she loves her kid and the bond that the two of them have. But it comes off like a very WASP-y type situation where the parents pack their kids off to a boarding school for the business of molding them into adults.
@snufkin

Right. You kind of get the impression that Han and Leia didn't know how to deal with Ben, so they more or less pawned him off on Luke. I know that  that statement might come across as throwing the OT under the bus, but really, that's how it sort of came across in Bloodline.

I'm dying to find out what Luke and Ben's relationship was like, particularly before Ben turned.  I mean, you've possibly got a 15-year-old full of teenage attitude (plus whatever was going on behind the scenes with Snoke, etc) getting sent against his will to this "mythical" uncle who potentially has a bunch of acolytes who revere him. That right there seems like a recipe for disaster.
@ISeeAnIsland

By the way, I am asking myself whether it is canon or not that Ben arrived at the academy around his 15th year Question  This is also what I imagine rather than having him sent at a early age. However, I don't remember that I saw something confirming my impression. As for Leia and Ben's relationship, I tend to believe that like the Beast of the 2017 version, Ben has a strong emotional bond with his mother. especially when the TFA novel describes how thinking of his mother brings him tears during the bridge scene. Found the initial version of the "Days in the sun" clip a couple days ago. Strangely, the mother and her song reminded me of Leia:  

However, it's hard for me to imagine Han and Leia as parents. Not the kind of couple I would imagine with a kid to be honest.

@ISeeanIsland - they're playing it close to the vest about when he went to be with Luke. Like you can guess that whatever happened for his defection was when he was 23. But we're not going to know until the movie how long he was with Luke. However it's not hard to guess that it wasn't a relationship where Luke showed up to take him fishing.

@reylo1992 - I know that a lot of fans are mad about what JJ and Kasdan (who wrote their romance so he gets some say IMO) have said about Han and Leia as parents. But they seem like they'd be a couple who had an affair during wartime but then parted on good terms with some regrets because it wouldn't work out during the peace. I have an easier idea thinking that she would've continued with the path her adoptive parents had trained her for, marrying somebody for more of a strategic alliance/suited to her path in life. It feels like the conclusion they came to about how those two would be in a conventional marriage likely spelled troubled for a highly sensitive only child. And you know that part of the rift between Han and Ben is that Ben didn't want to be sent away but Han deferred to Leia on the decision because she had the more conventional/privileged upbringing between the two of them.
@snufkin

Actually as a long time Han and Leia fan I'm not surprised they were - let's say 'awkward' - rather than bad parents.
Leia was a politician and military strategist. Han was, frankly, a selfish Censored . Neither of them were suitable 'mum and dad' material.This didn't make them bad people, just unsuitable for the dedication needed to raise a child,especially one with such a legacy heritage, and let's face it, so much baggage to carry. For all his attitude, Ben Solo/Kylo Ren came across to me as someone desperately needing love and reassurance. And sadly, I don't think he got it. Of course they loved him....but for Leia the 'greater good' always came first. And Han ran away,going back to 'doing what he did best'.
Watching TFA over and over again, there is so much going on with the Skywalker/Solos. Kylo's sarcastic comments to Poe leave me suspecting Kylo sees Poe as a substitute for himself in Leia's eyes. And I think much of his rage filled killing of Lor San Tekka stemmed from Tekka going on about how 'wonderful' his family were - when in Kylo's mind they were anything but.

How many 'heroes' in real life turned out to be terrible parents? Queen Victoria was hailed as one of England's greatest queens - yet she hated her children and they hated her. I often wonder if Leia's desperate need to save Kylo was as much about guilt as her love for him? And the more you watch Han's death, the more it becomes not so much a hateful man committing patricide, but a selfish man trying to atone for neglecting the child who ended up loving and hating him in equal measures.
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Re: Rian's New Rules

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 2 Jul - 15:57

@Piper Maru wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:Just started reading the Guardian of the Whills book.  Check out this sentence with Chirrut as narrator:

" ... the long outer wall of the Temple of the Kyber that was forever condemned to be shielded from sunlight. This, too, had meaning. For the light to exist, there must be dark.  For the Force there must be balance."
@SoloSideCousin

Oooooh.

"Light... (cue Rey's Theme).... Darkness (cue Kylo's Theme)... The Balance (cue triumphal music)."
@Piper Maru

And let's not forget what Luke told Leia when she raised her concerns to her brother in Empire's End... "the strongest light casts the darkest shadow."
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Re: Rian's New Rules

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Tue 4 Jul - 2:06

I rewatched Looper last night and Cid definitely reminds me of Kylo. His Force-like powers, potential for evil, strained relationship with his mother, plus
Spoiler:
Young Joe thinks that if Old Joe kills Cid's mom, it will set him on "the bad path" of anger and loneliness, which would ultimately lead to him becoming the Rainmaker. So young Joe kills himself to prevent this. We know that the Rainmaker exists in the future with Old Joe, so he essentially goes back in time and changes the story. The kid gets to keep his mom, who can calm him down, intends to "raise him right," and teach him to control his powers.  

I can't see Rian setting up this storyline for Kylo, to prevent his fall to the dark side because the deja vu would be too much. Regardless, I really enjoy this film and seeing it again has me hyped up for a SW movie written by Rian Smile

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Re: Rian's New Rules

Post by Persephone on Tue 4 Jul - 20:20

@snufkin wrote:
@Piper Maru wrote:
@snufkin wrote:
@Piper Maru wrote:I'm a huge fan of Fringe (I like it waaay more than Lost) and I definitely see a pattern here: all the three directors have worked with the idea of parallel dimensions/connection through time & space between partners.

@Piper Maru

Fringe does a far better job in writing a story where the themes of fate and parallel lives/universes fits in with the overall story. I definitely understood what the Hell they were talking about and bought the characterizations/relationships than I ever did with Lost. It's just that Lost had some kind of place in pop culture that made people stick with it versus how Fringe was always more low profile.

Obviously I'm being silly and tongue-in-cheek with some of my comments on this topic, but I do think that there will be a theme to do with a larger will of the Force. Which likely will be shown as part of Rey grappling with her path and whatever the story is about her (likely deceased due to the overarching Force plot) family. Also with Ben, that he may be somebody who chose the path he was on because he felt like he had no other choice. And that whatever happens between the two of them is fated/can't be avoided. JJ did compare them to two trains on the same track headed to collide with one another.
@snufkin

About Lost: oh, it's definitely a far more more influential show in pop culture than Fringe was. Even in the academy, there are many influential authors in Media Studies that consider Lost the turning point of contemporary television (Jason Mittel, Henry Jemkins and Arlindo Machado, particularly).

On a side note, I'm genuinely intrigued by this convergence of themes between J.J., Rian and Colin. It's something I never thought about before. I'm not expecting conventional time travel or multiverse stories, but now I'm thinking about the possibility of some sort of time manipulation as a Force ability. If you think about it, the Forceback already is a time manipulation of sorts; Rey touches the saber and is thrown in a vortex between past, present and future.

Remember when they told us that Rey's role in the Force was extremely important to the Galaxy? Having the ability to "see through" time seems to be pretty important to me.
@Piper Maru

It just occurred to me, Yoda's line to Luke in ESB is probably what Rey experienced in Maz's basement,  “Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future…the past. Old friends long gone.”

And while the "Rey is a survivor of the Jedi Academy massacre" never occurred to me when watching the movie or reading theories afterwards, it has occurred to me thanks to the Force vision that likely there is a connection between whatever caused her abandonment/her parents' disappearance and whatever freaked Han and Leia out enough to send Ben away to Luke. That would mean he spent ages 15-23 off with his uncle instead of his parents, so his 9 years and her 16 years each on their own sets up another parallel between the two of them.
@snufkin

@piper maru @snufkin you guys nailed it. excellent insights!
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Re: Rian's New Rules

Post by vaderito on Tue 4 Jul - 20:29

@Cowgirlsamurai He can't set up the story that way because time travel isn't part of SW and, even if they include it somehow, it likely won't be in the manner that changes the future. I never liked that device cause it's basically a cop out. 

I think that it's possible for them to introduce a sort of a time continuum within the Force that allows one to experience several timelines without having any influence on them (like Harry Potter's Pensive or Arrival). 

However, since SW Saga (not the spin offs) is largely fantasy with very little sci fi, I don't think they'll go there.
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Re: Rian's New Rules

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Tue 4 Jul - 21:03

@vaderito wrote:@Cowgirlsamurai He can't set up the story that way because time travel isn't part of SW and, even if they include it somehow, it likely won't be in the manner that changes the future. I never liked that device cause it's basically a cop out. 

I think that it's possible for them to introduce a sort of a time continuum within the Force that allows one to experience several timelines without having any influence on them (like Harry Potter's Pensive or Arrival). 

However, since SW Saga (not the spin offs) is largely fantasy with very little sci fi, I don't think they'll go there.
@vaderito

Yep! Precisely the point of my last two posts cheers

Someone had mentioned the possibility of traveling back in time to prevent Ben's fall which sounded like an intriguing idea to me, but then I watched Looper and realized that that's almost Cid and Joe's story exactly. Smile

I think the "Force backs," or visions, are enough of a peak at past/future events.
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Re: Rian's New Rules

Post by snufkin on Tue 4 Jul - 21:08

Time travel per se wasn't even really a thing in Looper, it was simply a pretext to explore the ideas about how people see themselves as good/bad and the choices that they make. Like there's a clear difference between Old Joe and Sara's ideas about love.
Spoiler:
Sara's love means that she's willing to die to protect her son versus Old Joe being willing to kill no matter the cost/harm caused instead of giving up his woman he loves to keep her safe.
which end up driving Young Joe's decision at the end. Same with how Brothers Bloom is pitched as a heist movie when it's really about the traps people have put themselves into and trying to break free. Haven't really watched Breaking Bad, but would guess that's another theme in that series. Back when the trailer came out, there was a genius summary in the comments section of what'll likely be a central theme of TLJ

THE BROTHERS BLOOM was about a brother Bloom who wanted out of the Brothers Bloom, and ended up completely dismantling the organization.

LOOPER was about a Looper who wanted to stop being a Looper, and ends up completely dismantling the Looper organization.

Luke and Ben clearly both don't want to be Jedi.

(that's the money quote, the rest of it descends into typical Onion type of silly joke comments)
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Re: Rian's New Rules

Post by snufkin on Tue 4 Jul - 21:13

@Persephone - thanks! I just don't have the attention span for a series like Lost and getting drawn into the universe building/theories. It's just too big/complicated for my taste. But Fringe was more JJ's show and I found it to be a more sharp and focused. Also John Noble is a great actor. Plus like we've discussed here, they got into some of the rumored themes for TLJ, like visions and alternate/parallel paths for the characters.
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