Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by snufkin on Thu 20 Jul 2017 - 4:36

@ReyofLightSide wrote:
@snufkin wrote:Hmm, total speculation but perhaps after what happens on Ache-to, Rey alone returns with Chewie to find Leia and deliver the sad news that her brother won't be joining them. And then a la the first movie, guess who decides to show up?



I mean, at some point he has to have this moment, right? A lot of the theorizing about whatever happened in the Force vision with him skewering somebody to save Rey is essentially thinking that it's the same moment where that type of character (and father and son no less) make the choice to stop being a selfish a** and come to the aid of somebody they've started to care about. And in this situation, it'd be an unexpected shock. Though the whole point really is that Leia wants him to "come back" and Rey is the person who can make this happen.
@snufkin

Maybe the Silencer does show up for the scene we were discussing- someone shoots the TIE fighter to clear the way for the MF.
@ReyofLightSide

Maybe this scene, something like that happens? Because it appears like the MF is being pursued and so far, we know that Rey would be piloting it.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by snufkin on Thu 20 Jul 2017 - 4:58

@ladyconsular wrote:
@Sacrebleu wrote:
@Saracene wrote:It’s obviously not an issue for many people on this forum, but reading the comments in other places, it’s really striking how little sense many people seem to have of Kylo being the son of their favourite heroes. It’s a big mistake on the part of the filmmakers to assume that they can just go, this guy here is the son of the characters you really love, and then expect people to be automatically emotionally invested and moved.
@Saracene

I've made the same observation, and I've never been able to decide if it's because of an inadequate portrayal of the relationship between Kylo and his parents in TFA, or if it's due to the decades' worth of hero worship of Han and Leia that so many fans brought with them into TFA.
@Sacrebleu

First time I saw Kylo, I saw a lot of Han in him. From the "anything else?" sarcastic comment to the guy delivering bad news, to the smirk he gives Rey when she is checking him out. He also pursues Rey as badly as Han pursued Leia.

I think with his worship of Vader and the many comparisons between him and Anakin, they forgot about the ones who created him. Even now some people forget Leia is a Skywalker too and has a Force sense.
@ladyconsular

Yeah same here. I was honestly confused after my first viewing of TFA because so much of the press and discussion around it played him up as a villain and total Vader stan who betrays his father. But once he gets around Rey and the literal mask/persona he's hiding behind falls, I saw the similarities. Including showing off and being a peacock around Rey the way Han does around Leia. So I've never seen it as a story about a villain as much as a tragic, f**ked up individual whose Daddy and masculinity issues have been about either living up to or rejecting the role models in his family. Which is why so many fans freak out over him and hate him, because it brings up something they're not comfortable with.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by Darth_Awakened on Thu 20 Jul 2017 - 9:38

http://www.starwars.com/news/star-wars-the-last-jedi-props-and-costumes-on-display-at-sdcc

Some interest bits in this one:

On the new character:

C’ai Threnalli
A skillful fighter pilot of Abednedo descent, C’ai Threnalli flies as Poe Dameron’s wingman following the evacuation of D’Qar.

On Poe:

Poe Dameron, Resistance Pilot
Now that the conflict between the First Order and the Resistance has escalated into open warfare, Poe shines as a daring squadron leader. Ever brash and foolhardy, his hot shot antics wear the patience of both First Order and Resistance command.


On BB8

Brave and loyal BB-8 continues his service to Poe Dameron, but also is a good friend and resourceful ally to Finn and Rose during their mission to thwart the First Order.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by Saracene on Thu 20 Jul 2017 - 9:58

Hmm so maybe Leia slaps Poe for being a daredevil.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by Darth_Awakened on Thu 20 Jul 2017 - 10:06

@Saracene wrote:Hmm so maybe Leia slaps Poe for being a daredevil.
@Saracene

Likely I would say.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 20 Jul 2017 - 10:11

@snufkin wrote:
@ladyconsular wrote:
@Sacrebleu wrote:
@Saracene wrote:It’s obviously not an issue for many people on this forum, but reading the comments in other places, it’s really striking how little sense many people seem to have of Kylo being the son of their favourite heroes. It’s a big mistake on the part of the filmmakers to assume that they can just go, this guy here is the son of the characters you really love, and then expect people to be automatically emotionally invested and moved.
@Saracene

I've made the same observation, and I've never been able to decide if it's because of an inadequate portrayal of the relationship between Kylo and his parents in TFA, or if it's due to the decades' worth of hero worship of Han and Leia that so many fans brought with them into TFA.
@Sacrebleu

First time I saw Kylo, I saw a lot of Han in him. From the "anything else?" sarcastic comment to the guy delivering bad news, to the smirk he gives Rey when she is checking him out. He also pursues Rey as badly as Han pursued Leia.

I think with his worship of Vader and the many comparisons between him and Anakin, they forgot about the ones who created him. Even now some people forget Leia is a Skywalker too and has a Force sense.
@ladyconsular

Yeah same here. I was honestly confused after my first viewing of TFA because so much of the press and discussion around it played him up as a villain and total Vader stan who betrays his father. But once he gets around Rey and the literal mask/persona he's hiding behind falls, I saw the similarities. Including showing off and being a peacock around Rey the way Han does around Leia. So I've never seen it as a story about a villain as much as a tragic, f**ked up individual whose Daddy and masculinity issues have been about either living up to or rejecting the role models in his family. Which is why so many fans freak out over him and hate him, because it brings up something they're not comfortable with.
@snufkin

Which sums up Kylo perfectly; no one cared about who he is just who he came from.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by Persephone on Thu 20 Jul 2017 - 13:52

@snufkin wrote:
@ladyconsular wrote:
@Sacrebleu wrote:
@Saracene wrote:It’s obviously not an issue for many people on this forum, but reading the comments in other places, it’s really striking how little sense many people seem to have of Kylo being the son of their favourite heroes. It’s a big mistake on the part of the filmmakers to assume that they can just go, this guy here is the son of the characters you really love, and then expect people to be automatically emotionally invested and moved.
@Saracene

I've made the same observation, and I've never been able to decide if it's because of an inadequate portrayal of the relationship between Kylo and his parents in TFA, or if it's due to the decades' worth of hero worship of Han and Leia that so many fans brought with them into TFA.
@Sacrebleu

First time I saw Kylo, I saw a lot of Han in him. From the "anything else?" sarcastic comment to the guy delivering bad news, to the smirk he gives Rey when she is checking him out. He also pursues Rey as badly as Han pursued Leia.

I think with his worship of Vader and the many comparisons between him and Anakin, they forgot about the ones who created him. Even now some people forget Leia is a Skywalker too and has a Force sense.
@ladyconsular

Yeah same here. I was honestly confused after my first viewing of TFA because so much of the press and discussion around it played him up as a villain and total Vader stan who betrays his father. But once he gets around Rey and the literal mask/persona he's hiding behind falls, I saw the similarities. Including showing off and being a peacock around Rey the way Han does around Leia. So I've never seen it as a story about a villain as much as a tragic, f**ked up individual whose Daddy and masculinity issues have been about either living up to or rejecting the role models in his family. Which is why so many fans freak out over him and hate him, because it brings up something they're not comfortable with.
@snufkin

This. This right here is, I think, an explanation in a nutshel, of the controversial way Kylo Ren has been received by fans and critics. His entire character deals with, in a very blunt way, all those real and very present issues that plaque most men(and women) in patriarchal society we live in.
His character arc is a very ambitious one and again I say I'm impressed with the writers for choosing this path for ST consciously. The real challenge however, is to be able to deliver it the right way, all the way, throught the trilogy, until the credits roll on 9. But I have faith in this, especially since AD is on this project and Rian seems promising. Colin is a big question mark; however, JJ and KK are still the executive producers behind the scenes, so I have faith they will keep Colin anchored. (as long as JJ has learned his lesson from TFA regarding setting up emotional encounters, as someone here mentioned already)

I am very confident most of the hate for Kylo and reylo will dissipate once the trilogy is complete because the story itself will compell the recipients to see/feel the trasformation and growth of characters. Also regarding the Rey Skywalker thing (not being real). Storrytelling is a very powerful thing. It is the (mis)fortune of people like us that we're able to see many moves that happen ahead during this chess game. B/c sw trilogy is a chess game of sorts; however, many are not able to see that far ahead, no matter how many metas one presents them as evidence.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by Saracene on Thu 20 Jul 2017 - 14:20

I still think that much of the "emo wuss" backlash against Kylo is simply due to the way he was marketed before the movie's release, and some fans' unmet expectations. They thought they were getting a cool dark side bad***, and at first the film seemed to confirm it with Kylo's first scene where he was sooooo cool stopping that laser shot in the air, man, but then the character turned out to be something completely different. And while some appreciated the unexpected depth and complexity of the character, others were let down and thought he was just a disappointing villain who started off strong but then got owned by a force rookie. It's the risk of playing surprises with the audience with the misleading marketing. But yeah I think that once Kylo's character arc and relationship with Rey becomes clearer, much (not all) of the hate will go away.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by vaderito on Thu 20 Jul 2017 - 15:16

@Saracene wrote:Hmm so maybe Leia slaps Poe for being a daredevil.
@Saracene

he'd beaten to a pulp if she slapped him every time he was a daredevil. lol!

One thing is certain, if Poe and Kylo get a dogfight, Dark Pilot is going to launch 1000 fanfics in one day. Twisted Evil
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 20 Jul 2017 - 15:34

As a long time OT fan I wasn't very happy when I heard some of what was in the movie, but on seeing the film my opinion changed. The simple fact is, the OT weren't 'perfect'. It's one of the reasons I loved them in the first place. And the fate of all of them was really set in stone just watching the OT. Luke perhaps is the exception; he was an idealist and it's quite surprising to see him become cynical and bitter. But...it's believable. A lot of people lose faith when their beliefs are shattered, and I suspect Luke discovered something about the Jedi which destroyed his faith in them.
Han and Leia however....they always had a tempestuous relationship. A woman who devoted her life to a cause and a man who devoted his life to himself do not good parents make.
What I did like was the warmth and love was still there between them. As Leia said: 'no matter how much they fought she always hated watching him leave'. This means that rewatching the OT doesn't sour their relationship; for all their differences these two adored each other, sadly neither was willing to give just that little bit that would make their relationship work.
The best part is how clever a character Kylo is. Not only is there enough of a physical resemblance between Adam,Carrie and Harrison to make his being their son credible but his personality is eerily like theirs. His obsessive devotion to a cause, his dry sarcasm, are Leia and Han to a T. And there is of course the 'gift' shared with his grandfather and uncle, which tragically his parents could never accept.

I adored Han Solo, but if anyone asked me who the most fascinating Star Wars character is, I'd say Kylo.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by vaderito on Thu 20 Jul 2017 - 15:36

This better be the moment when she looks at Kylo:



None of Luke/sea monster/Porg/Grandpa Kenobi sith.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by panki on Thu 20 Jul 2017 - 15:43

@Saracene wrote:Hmm so maybe Leia slaps Poe for being a daredevil.
@Saracene

I don't see Leia slapping Poe for just being a daredevil...she recruited him for the resistance for being precisely that....however, I wonder if Holdo will create a rift between Leia and Poe, to divide the resistance so she can take over. Maybe she will say something leading to Poe being slapped and demoted by Leia.

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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by Darth_Awakened on Thu 20 Jul 2017 - 15:57

@panki wrote:
@Saracene wrote:Hmm so maybe Leia slaps Poe for being a daredevil.
@Saracene

I don't see Leia slapping Poe for just being a daredevil...she recruited him for the resistance for being precisely that....however, I wonder if Holdo will create a rift between Leia and Poe, to divide the resistance so she can take over. Maybe she will say something leading to Poe being slapped and demoted by Leia.
@panki

I think there're two possible scenarios for Poe getting slapped:

One is yours that Holdo is an ambitious backstabber and is creating a rift between Leia and Poe.

The other one is Poe being a bit too much hotshot in his actions, and he creates some trouble for teh resistance, not intentionally, of course.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by reylo1992 on Thu 20 Jul 2017 - 16:36

Yep, I agree with @Saracene about the effects of the marketing process. The marketing campaign for TFA was definitely very disturbing for a lot of people who thought that they would get evil Vader n°2 and Jedi Finn while Rey was nearly absent - like Kylo is right now for TLJ.

I think that Kylo's backlash has to do with many reasons that were already pointed out:
1)The evil bad*** villain representing masculinity and virility suddenly turned into a surprisingly young man showing traditional characteristic of feminity  and vulnerability ==> I guess this is one of the reason why some people considered that the removal of the mask sort of killed the character
2) The evil bad*** villain got defeated twice by an inexperienced female opponent ==> I think that having a male defeated by a female is something unusual for the GA but having a trained warrior defeated twice by an inexperienced opponent. I guess that for some people this is what contributed to kill the character
3) The evil bad*** villain was shown as an emo child beloved by his parents who had no reason to turn to the DS ==> I supposed that some people made some comparison with Rey like Pablo did: Rey was raised by sand and yet she didn't become a mass killer. I think that a lot of people see Kylo Ren just as some spoiled rotten child who grew up in a privileged environment and didn't deserve  to be loved the way his heroic parents did
4) The evil bad*** villain cried like a baby but still killed his own father ==> My guess is that a antihero can kill many people an still be considered as redeemable but killiing his own parents...well it is hard for people to understand that kind of crime because it conveys such emotional level
5) The evil bad*** villain didn't not torture the heroine but still sort of mind-raped ==> We might disagree with Antis but their reaction ain't very surprising. If I make some comparison with Kylo Ren and Wang So, there is something interesting to note. I don't think that people have problem with the redemption of an anti-hero no matter how many he kills. Wang So did commit a mass murder in a temple the same way Kylo Ren did commit a mass murder in that Jakku village. However, I never ever saw comments saying that SoSoo shouldn't happen because Wag So was a murder. On the contrary, people were very open with the idea to have Hae Soo making of Wang So a better man. However, some people reacts worse after their first kiss happened because Wang So sort of forced the kiss. So people considered that he sort of raped her no matter in which circumstances it was. So I guess that both the patricide and the "forced" mind probe represent for some people something hard to forgive, more than Kylo slaughtering an entire village or strangling Mikata
6) The evil bad*** villain had in TFA concentrated all the flaws of the Skywalker family without being the Vader n°2 the GA expected and had anything that made him look like the heroic original trio composed by Han, Leia and Luke. No matter the incredible abilities he showed (stoping blaster; freezing people; etc..) a lot of people only saw that he was both a failed Darth Vader  and a failed Skywalker hero.
7) I had already pointed once that one of my brother found Kylo's appearance disturbing. I swaer that he isn't the kind of person to judge by appearance. So I was surprised when he told me: "Look at this strange face! He looks awful!  I mean, he is the son of Han and Leia!".

My brothers like SW but ain't fanboys: they are part of the GA who is interested in SW but not analyzing deep the movies. I find their reaction to Kylo Ren as a character pretty telling because they basically reproach to the character everything that was pointed out there. I think that one of the major problem is that J.J.Abrams tried to hard not to show what was the nature of the relationship between Ben and Snoke. If their dialogue in the novel would have been inserted, my feeling is that the GA would have understood that Ben ain't meant to be a Vader n°2 but a Prince(ss) prisoner of an abusive relationship. The problem is that everything in TFA was misleading: Rey being called by the Skywalker lightsaber and then getting it instead of Kylo and defeating him the way she did definitely convinced the GA that she was more worth to bear the Skywalker legacy than he is. So I don't blame so much the GA for thinking that Kylo is not worth bearing that legacy, deserving a redemption arc and surviving beyond the ST.  

That's why I think that the fact  hide Kylo in the TLJ campaign is actually a good sign. It tells me that the SW team is up to something big with him because something big is needed to make the GA understand that he is the Skywalker legacy child and that this has a specific meaning  The more I think about it, the more I get the feeling that no matter the amount of his screentime,  TLJ will be Kylo's film like TFA was Rey's. I don't think that this is an accident that they want us to know that he will have a ship faster than the MF and that he is an excellent pilotlike his father and his grandfather. No accident either that among the 6 posters, Rian chose Kylo's (not Rey's or Luke's who are supposed to be sort of beating hearts of TLJ) for his twitter account and called him a "sweetheart".

My feeling is that TLJ will rehabilitate Kylo Ren in many levels by :
- showing his bad*** (Force) abilities         ==> ending criticism about his supposed "weakness"
- giving him a heartbreaking background ==> allowing the GA to relate to him and see him as an abused victim rather than a villain
- maybe making him suffer a tragic fate              ==> getting what they expect/want with Kylo could make the GA finally realize that he is the only Skywalker legacy child and what it would mean to "lose" him
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 20 Jul 2017 - 16:56

In short, Rian will correct JJ's 'mistakes', so to speak.

You make excellent points R. I can't help but also think the film was edited to make Kylo look 'less' sympathetic. The scene where he finds the Falcon, his comments to Rey about her 'shooting first' (ironic that), the scene in her Force vision where she sees a young Kylo in thrall to Snoke....along with Snoke accusing Kylo of having 'compassion' for Rey. They were all removed.

Hopefully people will change their minds post TLJ.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by panki on Thu 20 Jul 2017 - 17:03

@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@panki wrote:
@Saracene wrote:Hmm so maybe Leia slaps Poe for being a daredevil.
@Saracene

I don't see Leia slapping Poe for just being a daredevil...she recruited him for the resistance for being precisely that....however, I wonder if Holdo will create a rift between Leia and Poe, to divide the resistance so she can take over. Maybe she will say something leading to Poe being slapped and demoted by Leia.
@panki

I think there're two possible scenarios for Poe getting slapped:

One is yours that Holdo is an ambitious backstabber and is creating a rift between Leia and Poe.

The other one is Poe being a bit too much hotshot in his actions, and he creates some trouble for teh resistance, not intentionally, of course.
@Darth_Awakened

I think it might be the former since it would explain the rumored scene of Poe and a ragged bunch of resistance members taking control of Holdo's ship and especially him holding a blaster to her after she says Leia is injured and being taken care of.

Poe has already done enough hotshot/ maverick things and more in the comics and Leia takes a lot of it in her stride, saying she is reminded of Luke and Han...so suddenly punishing/slapping him for being something she is normally okay with makes no sense...unless Holdo specifically points out that he is a danger and threatens to withdraw her support of the resistance or something like that.

For a person as amiable as Poe, Holdo needs to have done something really bad to provoke such a reaction. Otherwise Holdo would just be some fixture in the resistance with honey dropper turrent guns and little else in terms of story.

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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by Persephone on Thu 20 Jul 2017 - 17:08

@Saracene wrote:I still think that much of the "emo wuss" backlash against Kylo is simply due to the way he was marketed before the movie's release, and some fans' unmet expectations. They thought they were getting a cool dark side bad***, and at first the film seemed to confirm it with Kylo's first scene where he was sooooo cool stopping that laser shot in the air, man, but then the character turned out to be something completely different. And while some appreciated the unexpected depth and complexity of the character, others were let down and thought he was just a disappointing villain who started off strong but then got owned by a force rookie. It's the risk of playing surprises with the audience with the misleading marketing. But yeah I think that once Kylo's character arc and relationship with Rey becomes clearer, much (not all) of the hate will go away.
@Saracene

Yes, I agree completely, this was also a huge part of the intial backlash, and probably the main reason behind the backlash from GA. Still today many fans who are very casual fans tell me how they think Adam Driver is so so wrong for the part of Kylo Ren. The marketing for TFA was problematic in so many ways
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by Persephone on Thu 20 Jul 2017 - 17:09

@vaderito wrote:
@Saracene wrote:Hmm so maybe Leia slaps Poe for being a daredevil.
@Saracene

he'd beaten to a pulp if she slapped him every time he was a daredevil. lol!

One thing is certain, if Poe and Kylo get a dogfight, Dark Pilot is going to launch 1000 fanfics in one day. Twisted Evil
@vaderito

OMG, DARK PILOT.....Yes! I want this!!
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by ReyofLightSide on Thu 20 Jul 2017 - 17:23

I can't wait to see Kylo as a pilot. You know he will be cocky and extra AF. I hope we see him flying the MF but doesn't look like it is happening from what we have seen.
Wonder if we will be treated to any flashbacks of him in the MF? From his reaction to the deleted scene in TFA, it looks like he spent time with Han in the MF.

I think the Poe slap is going to be related to something to do with Leia's family. I don't know what else could get that reaction from her.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by Persephone on Thu 20 Jul 2017 - 17:26

@reylo1992 wrote:Yep, I agree with @Saracene about the effects of the marketing process. The marketing campaign for TFA was definitely very disturbing for a lot of people who thought that they would get evil Vader n°2 and Jedi Finn while Rey was nearly absent - like Kylo is right now for TLJ.

I think that Kylo's backlash has to do with many reasons that were already pointed out:
1)The evil bad*** villain representing masculinity and virility suddenly turned into a surprisingly young man showing traditional characteristic of feminity  and vulnerability ==> I guess this is one of the reason why some people considered that the removal of the mask sort of killed the character
2) The evil bad*** villain got defeated twice by an inexperienced female opponent ==> I think that having a male defeated by a female is something unusual for the GA but having a trained warrior defeated twice by an inexperienced opponent. I guess that for some people this is what contributed to kill the character
3) The evil bad*** villain was shown as an emo child beloved by his parents who had no reason to turn to the DS ==> I supposed that some people made some comparison with Rey like Pablo did: Rey was raised by sand and yet she didn't become a mass killer. I think that a lot of people see Kylo Ren just as some spoiled rotten child who grew up in a privileged environment and didn't deserve  to be loved the way his heroic parents did
4) The evil bad*** villain cried like a baby but still killed his own father ==> My guess is that a antihero can kill many people an still be considered as redeemable but killiing his own parents...well it is hard for people to understand that kind of crime because it conveys such emotional level
5) The evil bad*** villain didn't not torture the heroine but still sort of mind-raped ==> We might disagree with Antis but their reaction ain't very surprising. If I make some comparison with Kylo Ren and Wang So, there is something interesting to note. I don't think that people have problem with the redemption of an anti-hero no matter how many he kills. Wang So did commit a mass murder in a temple the same way Kylo Ren did commit a mass murder in that Jakku village. However, I never ever saw comments saying that SoSoo shouldn't happen because Wag So was a murder. On the contrary, people were very open with the idea to have Hae Soo making of Wang So a better man. However, some people reacts worse after their first kiss happened because Wang So sort of forced the kiss. So people considered that he sort of raped her no matter in which circumstances it was. So I guess that both the patricide and the "forced" mind probe represent for some people something hard to forgive, more than Kylo slaughtering an entire village or strangling Mikata
6) The evil bad*** villain had in TFA concentrated all the flaws of the Skywalker family without being the Vader n°2 the GA expected and had anything that made him look like the heroic original trio composed by Han, Leia and Luke. No matter the incredible abilities he showed (stoping blaster; freezing people; etc..) a lot of people only saw that he was both a failed Darth Vader  and a failed Skywalker hero.
7) I had already pointed once that one of my brother found Kylo's appearance disturbing. I swaer that he isn't the kind of person to judge by appearance. So I was surprised when he told me: "Look at this strange face! He looks awful!  I mean, he is the son of Han and Leia!".

My brothers like SW but ain't fanboys: they are part of the GA who is interested in SW but not analyzing deep the movies. I find their reaction to Kylo Ren as a character pretty telling because they basically reproach to the character everything that was pointed out there. I think that one of the major problem is that J.J.Abrams tried to hard not to show what was the nature of the relationship between Ben and Snoke. If their dialogue in the novel would have been inserted, my feeling is that the GA would have understood that Ben ain't meant to be a Vader n°2 but a Prince(ss) prisoner of an abusive relationship. The problem is that everything in TFA was misleading: Rey being called by the Skywalker lightsaber and then getting it instead of Kylo and defeating him the way she did definitely convinced the GA that she was more worth to bear the Skywalker legacy than he is. So I don't blame so much the GA for thinking that Kylo is not worth bearing that legacy, deserving a redemption arc and surviving beyond the ST.  

That's why I think that the fact  hide Kylo in the TLJ campaign is actually a good sign. It tells me that the SW team is up to something big with him because something big is needed to make the GA understand that he is the Skywalker legacy child and that this has a specific meaning  The more I think about it, the more I get the feeling that no matter the amount of his screentime,  TLJ will be Kylo's film like TFA was Rey's. I don't think that this is an accident that they want us to know that he will have a ship faster than the MF and that he is an excellent pilotlike his father and his grandfather. No accident either that among the 6 posters, Rian chose Kylo's (not Rey's or Luke's who are supposed to be sort of beating hearts of TLJ) for his twitter account and called him a "sweetheart".

My feeling is that TLJ will rehabilitate Kylo Ren in many levels by :
- showing his bad*** (Force) abilities         ==> ending criticism about his supposed "weakness"
- giving him a heartbreaking background ==> allowing the GA to relate to him and see him as an abused victim rather than a villain
- maybe making him suffer a tragic fate              ==> getting what they expect/want with Kylo could make the GA finally realize that he is the only Skywalker legacy child and what it would mean to "lose" him
@reylo1992

Agreed. On all points. Very good and thorough analysis.
TLJ is Ren's movie. I personally don't buy for a second the "Rey and Luke are the beating heart" marketing. It may be the truth Rian speaks, but not in a literal way.

@motherofpearl1 I have a feeling that TFA was such an amazing movie editing-wise before they decided to re-edit it just a few months before it was released.... Sad Sad so many amazing dialogue and scenes were cut, re-filmed and re-designed. I don't get why they did this, they had a great finished product, why decide to re-arrange the entire film like 3 months before its premiere? Did someone panic? well, it would have been nice to see TFA vol 1.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by Krafty on Thu 20 Jul 2017 - 17:29

Just caught up!
Expert Pilot eh? YES! How could he not be in true, Skywalker/Solo form!
You know, I always felt like that quip he said to Poe about "I had no idea we had the best resistance pilot..blah blah" sounded and was meant to be condescending.
lol!
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by Darth_Awakened on Thu 20 Jul 2017 - 17:37

@panki wrote:
@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@panki wrote:
@Saracene wrote:Hmm so maybe Leia slaps Poe for being a daredevil.
@Saracene

I don't see Leia slapping Poe for just being a daredevil...she recruited him for the resistance for being precisely that....however, I wonder if Holdo will create a rift between Leia and Poe, to divide the resistance so she can take over. Maybe she will say something leading to Poe being slapped and demoted by Leia.
@panki

I think there're two possible scenarios for Poe getting slapped:

One is yours that Holdo is an ambitious backstabber and is creating a rift between Leia and Poe.

The other one is Poe being a bit too much hotshot in his actions, and he creates some trouble for teh resistance, not intentionally, of course.
@Darth_Awakened

I think it might be the former since it would explain the rumored scene of Poe and a ragged bunch of resistance members taking control of Holdo's ship and especially him holding a blaster to her after she says Leia is injured and being taken care of.

Poe has already done enough hotshot/ maverick things and more in the comics and Leia takes a lot of it in her stride, saying she is reminded of Luke and Han...so suddenly punishing/slapping him for being something she is normally okay with makes no sense...unless Holdo specifically points out that he is a danger and threatens to withdraw her support of the resistance or something like that.

For a person as amiable as Poe, Holdo needs to have done something really bad to provoke such a reaction. Otherwise Holdo would just be some fixture in the resistance with honey dropper turrent guns and little else in terms of story.
@panki

I agree. I kinda forgot about the old rumor of Poe vs. Holdo.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 20 Jul 2017 - 17:40

@Persephone wrote:
@Saracene wrote:I still think that much of the "emo wuss" backlash against Kylo is simply due to the way he was marketed before the movie's release, and some fans' unmet expectations. They thought they were getting a cool dark side bad***, and at first the film seemed to confirm it with Kylo's first scene where he was sooooo cool stopping that laser shot in the air, man, but then the character turned out to be something completely different. And while some appreciated the unexpected depth and complexity of the character, others were let down and thought he was just a disappointing villain who started off strong but then got owned by a force rookie. It's the risk of playing surprises with the audience with the misleading marketing. But yeah I think that once Kylo's character arc and relationship with Rey becomes clearer, much (not all) of the hate will go away.
@Saracene

Yes, I agree completely, this was also a huge part of the intial backlash, and probably the main reason behind the backlash from GA. Still today many fans who are very casual fans tell me how they think Adam Driver is so so wrong for the part of Kylo Ren. The marketing for TFA was problematic in so many ways
@Persephone

I heard so many horrid comments about Adam before I saw the film I honestly thought he was some chinless wimp - then he removed the mask and I saw a god!!
In all seriousness, people should look at him a lot more closely because every time I watch TFA I see more and more of a resemblance to Carrie and Harrison. His eyes are like Carrie's. His mouth is like Harrison's. And some of his expressions are Harrison to a t. Some clever acting of course, but others entirely down to nature.

This picture in particularly is startling!
http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/53f3bcb1ecad04730fc03eed-1200-924/adam-driver-gq-1.jpg
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 20 Jul 2017 - 17:41

@Persephone wrote:
@reylo1992 wrote:Yep, I agree with @Saracene about the effects of the marketing process. The marketing campaign for TFA was definitely very disturbing for a lot of people who thought that they would get evil Vader n°2 and Jedi Finn while Rey was nearly absent - like Kylo is right now for TLJ.

I think that Kylo's backlash has to do with many reasons that were already pointed out:
1)The evil bad*** villain representing masculinity and virility suddenly turned into a surprisingly young man showing traditional characteristic of feminity  and vulnerability ==> I guess this is one of the reason why some people considered that the removal of the mask sort of killed the character
2) The evil bad*** villain got defeated twice by an inexperienced female opponent ==> I think that having a male defeated by a female is something unusual for the GA but having a trained warrior defeated twice by an inexperienced opponent. I guess that for some people this is what contributed to kill the character
3) The evil bad*** villain was shown as an emo child beloved by his parents who had no reason to turn to the DS ==> I supposed that some people made some comparison with Rey like Pablo did: Rey was raised by sand and yet she didn't become a mass killer. I think that a lot of people see Kylo Ren just as some spoiled rotten child who grew up in a privileged environment and didn't deserve  to be loved the way his heroic parents did
4) The evil bad*** villain cried like a baby but still killed his own father ==> My guess is that a antihero can kill many people an still be considered as redeemable but killiing his own parents...well it is hard for people to understand that kind of crime because it conveys such emotional level
5) The evil bad*** villain didn't not torture the heroine but still sort of mind-raped ==> We might disagree with Antis but their reaction ain't very surprising. If I make some comparison with Kylo Ren and Wang So, there is something interesting to note. I don't think that people have problem with the redemption of an anti-hero no matter how many he kills. Wang So did commit a mass murder in a temple the same way Kylo Ren did commit a mass murder in that Jakku village. However, I never ever saw comments saying that SoSoo shouldn't happen because Wag So was a murder. On the contrary, people were very open with the idea to have Hae Soo making of Wang So a better man. However, some people reacts worse after their first kiss happened because Wang So sort of forced the kiss. So people considered that he sort of raped her no matter in which circumstances it was. So I guess that both the patricide and the "forced" mind probe represent for some people something hard to forgive, more than Kylo slaughtering an entire village or strangling Mikata
6) The evil bad*** villain had in TFA concentrated all the flaws of the Skywalker family without being the Vader n°2 the GA expected and had anything that made him look like the heroic original trio composed by Han, Leia and Luke. No matter the incredible abilities he showed (stoping blaster; freezing people; etc..) a lot of people only saw that he was both a failed Darth Vader  and a failed Skywalker hero.
7) I had already pointed once that one of my brother found Kylo's appearance disturbing. I swaer that he isn't the kind of person to judge by appearance. So I was surprised when he told me: "Look at this strange face! He looks awful!  I mean, he is the son of Han and Leia!".

My brothers like SW but ain't fanboys: they are part of the GA who is interested in SW but not analyzing deep the movies. I find their reaction to Kylo Ren as a character pretty telling because they basically reproach to the character everything that was pointed out there. I think that one of the major problem is that J.J.Abrams tried to hard not to show what was the nature of the relationship between Ben and Snoke. If their dialogue in the novel would have been inserted, my feeling is that the GA would have understood that Ben ain't meant to be a Vader n°2 but a Prince(ss) prisoner of an abusive relationship. The problem is that everything in TFA was misleading: Rey being called by the Skywalker lightsaber and then getting it instead of Kylo and defeating him the way she did definitely convinced the GA that she was more worth to bear the Skywalker legacy than he is. So I don't blame so much the GA for thinking that Kylo is not worth bearing that legacy, deserving a redemption arc and surviving beyond the ST.  

That's why I think that the fact  hide Kylo in the TLJ campaign is actually a good sign. It tells me that the SW team is up to something big with him because something big is needed to make the GA understand that he is the Skywalker legacy child and that this has a specific meaning  The more I think about it, the more I get the feeling that no matter the amount of his screentime,  TLJ will be Kylo's film like TFA was Rey's. I don't think that this is an accident that they want us to know that he will have a ship faster than the MF and that he is an excellent pilotlike his father and his grandfather. No accident either that among the 6 posters, Rian chose Kylo's (not Rey's or Luke's who are supposed to be sort of beating hearts of TLJ) for his twitter account and called him a "sweetheart".

My feeling is that TLJ will rehabilitate Kylo Ren in many levels by :
- showing his bad*** (Force) abilities         ==> ending criticism about his supposed "weakness"
- giving him a heartbreaking background ==> allowing the GA to relate to him and see him as an abused victim rather than a villain
- maybe making him suffer a tragic fate              ==> getting what they expect/want with Kylo could make the GA finally realize that he is the only Skywalker legacy child and what it would mean to "lose" him
@reylo1992

Agreed. On all points. Very good and thorough analysis.
TLJ is Ren's movie. I personally don't buy for a second the "Rey and Luke are the beating heart" marketing. It may be the truth Rian speaks, but not in a literal way.

@motherofpearl1 I have a feeling that TFA was such an amazing movie editing-wise before they decided to re-edit it just a few months before it was released.... Sad Sad so many amazing dialogue and scenes were cut, re-filmed and re-designed. I don't get why they did this, they had a great finished product, why decide to re-arrange the entire film like 3 months before its premiere? Did someone panic? well, it would have been nice to see TFA vol 1.
@Persephone

I wonder if we might just see some of those deleted scenes in TLJ.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by Persephone on Thu 20 Jul 2017 - 17:45

@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@Persephone wrote:
@reylo1992 wrote:Yep, I agree with @Saracene about the effects of the marketing process. The marketing campaign for TFA was definitely very disturbing for a lot of people who thought that they would get evil Vader n°2 and Jedi Finn while Rey was nearly absent - like Kylo is right now for TLJ.

I think that Kylo's backlash has to do with many reasons that were already pointed out:
1)The evil bad*** villain representing masculinity and virility suddenly turned into a surprisingly young man showing traditional characteristic of feminity  and vulnerability ==> I guess this is one of the reason why some people considered that the removal of the mask sort of killed the character
2) The evil bad*** villain got defeated twice by an inexperienced female opponent ==> I think that having a male defeated by a female is something unusual for the GA but having a trained warrior defeated twice by an inexperienced opponent. I guess that for some people this is what contributed to kill the character
3) The evil bad*** villain was shown as an emo child beloved by his parents who had no reason to turn to the DS ==> I supposed that some people made some comparison with Rey like Pablo did: Rey was raised by sand and yet she didn't become a mass killer. I think that a lot of people see Kylo Ren just as some spoiled rotten child who grew up in a privileged environment and didn't deserve  to be loved the way his heroic parents did
4) The evil bad*** villain cried like a baby but still killed his own father ==> My guess is that a antihero can kill many people an still be considered as redeemable but killiing his own parents...well it is hard for people to understand that kind of crime because it conveys such emotional level
5) The evil bad*** villain didn't not torture the heroine but still sort of mind-raped ==> We might disagree with Antis but their reaction ain't very surprising. If I make some comparison with Kylo Ren and Wang So, there is something interesting to note. I don't think that people have problem with the redemption of an anti-hero no matter how many he kills. Wang So did commit a mass murder in a temple the same way Kylo Ren did commit a mass murder in that Jakku village. However, I never ever saw comments saying that SoSoo shouldn't happen because Wag So was a murder. On the contrary, people were very open with the idea to have Hae Soo making of Wang So a better man. However, some people reacts worse after their first kiss happened because Wang So sort of forced the kiss. So people considered that he sort of raped her no matter in which circumstances it was. So I guess that both the patricide and the "forced" mind probe represent for some people something hard to forgive, more than Kylo slaughtering an entire village or strangling Mikata
6) The evil bad*** villain had in TFA concentrated all the flaws of the Skywalker family without being the Vader n°2 the GA expected and had anything that made him look like the heroic original trio composed by Han, Leia and Luke. No matter the incredible abilities he showed (stoping blaster; freezing people; etc..) a lot of people only saw that he was both a failed Darth Vader  and a failed Skywalker hero.
7) I had already pointed once that one of my brother found Kylo's appearance disturbing. I swaer that he isn't the kind of person to judge by appearance. So I was surprised when he told me: "Look at this strange face! He looks awful!  I mean, he is the son of Han and Leia!".

My brothers like SW but ain't fanboys: they are part of the GA who is interested in SW but not analyzing deep the movies. I find their reaction to Kylo Ren as a character pretty telling because they basically reproach to the character everything that was pointed out there. I think that one of the major problem is that J.J.Abrams tried to hard not to show what was the nature of the relationship between Ben and Snoke. If their dialogue in the novel would have been inserted, my feeling is that the GA would have understood that Ben ain't meant to be a Vader n°2 but a Prince(ss) prisoner of an abusive relationship. The problem is that everything in TFA was misleading: Rey being called by the Skywalker lightsaber and then getting it instead of Kylo and defeating him the way she did definitely convinced the GA that she was more worth to bear the Skywalker legacy than he is. So I don't blame so much the GA for thinking that Kylo is not worth bearing that legacy, deserving a redemption arc and surviving beyond the ST.  

That's why I think that the fact  hide Kylo in the TLJ campaign is actually a good sign. It tells me that the SW team is up to something big with him because something big is needed to make the GA understand that he is the Skywalker legacy child and that this has a specific meaning  The more I think about it, the more I get the feeling that no matter the amount of his screentime,  TLJ will be Kylo's film like TFA was Rey's. I don't think that this is an accident that they want us to know that he will have a ship faster than the MF and that he is an excellent pilotlike his father and his grandfather. No accident either that among the 6 posters, Rian chose Kylo's (not Rey's or Luke's who are supposed to be sort of beating hearts of TLJ) for his twitter account and called him a "sweetheart".

My feeling is that TLJ will rehabilitate Kylo Ren in many levels by :
- showing his bad*** (Force) abilities         ==> ending criticism about his supposed "weakness"
- giving him a heartbreaking background ==> allowing the GA to relate to him and see him as an abused victim rather than a villain
- maybe making him suffer a tragic fate              ==> getting what they expect/want with Kylo could make the GA finally realize that he is the only Skywalker legacy child and what it would mean to "lose" him
@reylo1992

Agreed. On all points. Very good and thorough analysis.
TLJ is Ren's movie. I personally don't buy for a second the "Rey and Luke are the beating heart" marketing. It may be the truth Rian speaks, but not in a literal way.

@motherofpearl1 I have a feeling that TFA was such an amazing movie editing-wise before they decided to re-edit it just a few months before it was released.... Sad Sad so many amazing dialogue and scenes were cut, re-filmed and re-designed. I don't get why they did this, they had a great finished product, why decide to re-arrange the entire film like 3 months before its premiere? Did someone panic? well, it would have been nice to see TFA vol 1.
@Persephone

I wonder if we might just see some of those deleted scenes in TLJ.
@motherofpearl1

Here's to hoping
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