Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by snufkin on Wed 19 Jul 2017 - 21:48

@FrolickingFizzgig - oh I agree, the naming conventions are just so ridiculously melodramatic in a certain way that I can't not imagine a dropped subplot from Bloodline where Leia infiltrates a Crossfit studio to learn about how they're all fronts for the First Order.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by EchoBase on Wed 19 Jul 2017 - 21:49

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@EchoBase

Who comes up with the stuff and how do they keep it all straight? confused Laughing
@Cowgirlsamurai

The story group? Very Happy

I also loved this:



The sad, perfect son....he must be the biggest Kylo fanboy.


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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by reylo1992 on Wed 19 Jul 2017 - 21:51

Late reaction to the comments about Luke and Kylo's role in TLJ, and especially the worry about Kylo's screen time, his importance in TLJ and the probability of Reylo not happening in the ST... I rather agree with @Piper Maru: let's have faith!  Smile

First, let's keep in mind that even if Rian made his own thing, it's still within the framework of a space Disney fairytale. With J.J.Abrams as the executive producer, he's not gonna destroy the basis that were established in TFA. My feeling is that the SW crew is trying hard to convince the GA that TLJ is not gonna be a remake of ESB because TFA was hightly critizised for being a remake of ANH. I have no doubt that Rian indeed made something different but there is also a big part of marketing in this BTS videos and in the speech of all protagonists: "Don't worry guys! This film is gonna be different!" I think that they are definitely very aware that they must stress how TLJ is different from any other SW film to avoid that the GA thinks "since TFA was a copy of ANH, TLJ will be a copy of ESB". And I even think that Rian's controversial speech about no romance a la Han and Leia was indeed part of this marketing.

Now, let's come back to SW as space Disney fairytale. This is definitely how J.J.Abrams saw the movie since he said in his audio comments "you'll probably have a castle, a prince and a princess if you look at a fairytale". We indeed got a castle with Maz's castle, an enchanted forest and characters who are typical fairytale characters. So if we look at the main characters in a fairytale, there are four major characters in  many cases:
- A Hero(in)
- A Prince(ss)
- A Villain
- A Father figure

This applies to BATB:
- The Heroin: Belle
- The Prince: Beast
- The Villain: Gaston/ Forte
- The Father figure: Maurice

This applies to Little Mermaid:
- The Heroin: Ariel
- The Prince: Eric
- The Villain: Ursula
- The Father figure: King Triton

This applies to Aladdin:
- The Hero: Aladdin
- The Princess: Jasmine
- The Villain: Jafar
- The Father figure: Sultan

This applies to Cinderella:
- The Heroin: Cinderella
- The Prince: Florian
- The Villain: Stepmother
- The Father figure: The King

This applies to Little Red Riding Hood:
- The Heroin: LRRH
- The Prince: TheHunter
- The Villain: The Wolf
- The "father" figure: the Grandmother

etc, etc...

The scheme perfectly applied to TFA in two ways because of the story in the story:
1) First interpretation:
- The Hero: Finn
- The Princess: Rey
- The Villain: Kylo Ren
- The Father figure: Han
2) Second interpretation:
- The Heroine: Rey
- The Prince(ss): Ben
- The Villain: Snoke
- The Father figure: Han

1) About Luke's role

So now that Han is gone, is Luke gonna get the role of the Father figure? And what does it mean for his role,because Tryton, Maurice or LRRH's Grandmother all got very different roles in the story - sometimes important, sometimes secondary Question

Honestly, I don't know what they're gonna do with Luke. J.J.Abrams already stressed how problematic his role is because people expect him to have a big role although the ST is not supposed to be focused on his journey and a fairytale never focuses on the journey of a father figure anyway. It's hard to imagine a scenario of Luke becoming the Big Bad Villain since Snoke himself was pretty much introduced as the typical manipulative fairytale villain.

Plus, I don't get why Lucas Film would have let ADF stressing Snoke's creepiness and Andy Serkis insisting on his huge agenda...just to have Rian giving him  a figurative role as a villain Suspect  I agree that Phasma and Hux may rise as a villains but definitely not as leaders endangering the whole galaxy. And Ben...doesn't seem like he's gonna evolve to the Big Bad Wolf that so many people expected.

So there is indeed some big place for speculation there. Honestly, I don't know what will happen with Luke but I hardly imagine a scenario like he is gonna replace Snoke as Big Bad Villain or he was actually Snoke from the very beginning. I rather expect some mad/incapacitated Luke because it seems that Snoke is actually more concerned that the Resistance finds him than making sure to destroy him. And we know that Luke strangely want the Jedi to end like Snoke but  Snoke doesn't want him to return because the new Jedi would rise.  From her side, Leia thinks that she should find her brother to have him help the Resistance in the fight against the FO but it doesn't seem like Luke would want to leave Ahch-To. So what if Snoke - who is a stratege - tricked everybody - including his own subordinates and Kylo himself - because he actually knew from the beginning what Luke's state was and only tried to keep the Resistance away from him as long as possible so that they would discover as late as possible what his mental state is Question

I guess that Luke's state and his refusal to leave the island to join the Resistance - although they searched for him for so many years - will raise questions among the Resistance. It would mean that they lose so much time and lives to just to discover that the myth is some haunted mad person who - for some strange reason - ain't ready to take part in the conflict at his sister's side.

2) About Kylo's importance

Now about Kylo's importance in TLJ and in the ST in general, I completely agree with @Piper Maru. The fact that they hide him doesn't mean that he ain't that important in the story compared to other major characters. And even if he wouldn't get so many scenes, it doesn't mean that it isn't his storyline that would drive the plot of the trilogy. I think that the most of the people in the general audience don't realize which role Kylo has in this space fairytale and here below are the reasons why I think that we shouldn't worry about his role and importance:
a) No matter that it wasn't in the film, the dialogues that he shares with Snoke are canon and were written for some good reason. ADF certainly didn't write his own thing to have Rian coming into picture and saying: "I don't give a s***! I'll do my own story". Bloodline, TFA (+ TFA novel) and TLJ are all linked to tell us a logical story.
b) This story is about the same family that has always been the focus of the franchise: the Skywalker. Bloodline basically explains how the public revelation of the Skywalker bloody legacy impacted the political career of Leia. In TFA, we learnt how the revelation of this lineage led to the destruction of what Luke has built, the implosion of an entire family (Ben lost to the DS; Luke gone; Han and Leia separated) and the novel reveals us how his abusive relationship with Snoke led Kylo to murder his own father.
c)So now, what TLJ is supposed to tell us now that Han was murdered by his own son and that Luke was finally found? Like Carrie said in conclusion of the BTS footage - and this is important to have this lines as a conclusion of this video - TLJ is "all about family and there is nothing more powerful than this". Plus, Mark confirmed that the second episode of the trilogy is basically the episode where absolutely everything goes wrong. We know that the fate of the Skywalker family and the fate of the galaxy are intertwined. So basically what could be the most tragic scenario for the heroine, for the Skywalker family, for the galaxy and I might add for the general audience itself Question

My feeling is that there can't be nothing more tragic than the loss of a major character. We already got Han's death in TFA, which represented something traumatic for the general audience. So which more tragic ending could we get in TLJ, a film that will be obviously darker than TFA itself Question Let's come back to this shot of the BTS video between Leia and Rey and what I personally speculate about this scene

1) My feeling is that the scene takes place at the end of the movie - if not at the very end. Rey already has her hair down and her Jedi costume. The background looks very much like Crait where the last part of the film will take place
2) Leia looks grimm as Rey is approaching, which leads me to assume that something wrong has already happened because if something wrong was happening  or was to happen, I don't think that this scene would have been shot like this.
3) Apparently, Leia wears mourning clothing. I don't know how many costumes she will have in TLJ - depends on how long the action takes place - but we know that like in TFA. she will have at least two costumes.  Apparently, she will  wear a dark grey costume while commanding the Resistance but this black robe for this scene with Rey. It doesn't prove anything but even right after Han's death, Leia didn't wear such dark mourning clothes, not that Han's death didn't shake her but still, the choice of the color and the design of her costume  for her scene with Rey makes me wonder...

4) Let's not forget in which circumstances Leia and Rey met for the first time. They shared their mourning toward Han and let's keep in mind that Ben's theme (Torn apart) was briefly heard during their embrace. So maybe we will get some callback to this scene when Leia and Rey finally meet again Question
5) Speaking of some potential callback to this TFA scene, shouldn't Leia be surrounded by many people if this scene with Rey was supposed to take place i.e. before the battle on Crait occurs ? And why would Leia stand alone outside rather than being in a commander room if it was before or during the battle Question

This leads me to think that this scene will take place after the battle on Crait occured and obviously something wrong happened there. And like Carrie said, there is nothing more powerful than family, and more generally how the audience can relate to them

So my question is: which major character should go down in this episode in such way that the story turns dramatic - if not tragic - and would keep the audience's attention high for Episode 9 Question
a) Leia Question

We already know that she was supposed to survive TLJ and play a major part in Episode 9. Besides, her death would be a tragic for her son - which could lead him to turn to the LS again, it would be a great loss for her brother, but not that much for the heroine even if they obviously like one another. Plus, what would Leia's death has brought to TLJ since Han already died in tragic circumstances in TFA and more specifically to Rey's heroin journey:?:
b) Rey  Question

Of course, this is a possibility but I don't think we will lose Rey. Even if there is still much room to speculate, I am persuaded that Rey will end up shaken emotionally but finephysically by the end of TLJ. She is the heroine and her character wasn't written to become passive. Besides, it would be a great loss for Kylo - if we follow the plot with Reylo eyes - but is it really tragic for Luke and Leia Question What's more, we know that Rey is supposed to be important for the galaxy but we still don't know which she is supposed to fulfill/
c) Luke  Question

That's a possibility since his role, his state and his fate in TLJ are extremely hard to foresee. However, from a character's point of view, does Luke's death would represent a tragic loss for the major character Question Surely for Leia; Not necessarily for Ben; As for Rey, well...Plus, hard to imagine that Rian would dare to kill the beloved Luke Skywalker after J.J. dared kill the beloved Han Solo. And, even if Luke is an important part of the puzzle, this story ain't supposed to focus on the old Star Wars generation
d) Ben Question

After all, so many people in the general audience want him to pay for his crime including having him dead by the end of the ST. He broke his mother's heart. He committed a patricide. He nearly killed Finn. He ordered to kill an entire village. The heroin sees him as a monster. The Republic sees him as Vader's heir. The general audience sees him as a  failed Vader n°2.
The general audience - especially the Antis -  wants the (only) Skywalker legacy child pay for his crimes and ultimately die unredeemed Question Fine! May their wish come true, maybe even earlier than they expected because...
Spoiler:

Beast Question

Aurora Question

Snow-White Question

Juliet Question

Grandma Question

Daddy Question

E.T. Question

Kida Question

The Sun (Son) Question


Jesus Question

...no matter what his crimes were, Kylo  got the role  the Prince(ss) in distress in  this space fairytale. As Pablo friendly reminded in some tweet, Kylo is THE Skywalker of the sequel trilogy, the only legacy child of the Skywalker family and thus the Prince(ss) in distress. That's why, it is hard for me to ignore what happened to most of the Prince(sse)s and other characters that Kylo seems to parallel according to the various contributions Reylos brought to this forum.

So what would Kylo's "death" represents:
1) For Leia  Question
==> There would be nothing more tragic for a mother than losing his own child, especially if he turns back to the light before
2) For Luke Question
==> No matter what their relationship is, he sort of raised this boy as his own at some point of his life. And this would impact his relationship with his twin sister in a major way
3) For our heroine Rey  Question
==> She would lose the only person whom she has ever shared a special bond in her life and would be alone again, even more if Finn meanwhile found another love interest in Rose. Ben is definitely the person whose loss would cause the most damages emotionally and represent her greatest challenge if the TLJ story ain't supposed to focus on her belonging behind.
4) For the galaxy Question
 ==> No matter the bloody Skywalker legacy, we know that the fate of the galaxy and this family are somehow intertwined so the death of the only Skywalker legacy child would have tragic consequences anyway
5) For the general audience Question
==> No matter what, what could me more shocking than the death of the prodidal Skywalker Son especially if he comes back to the light before, especially considering that Kylo is still a young man (and that young people's death is always more tragic) Question
To sum up, Kylo is the only character whose loss would represent a tragedy for everybody: for the heroine, for his family, for the galaxy and for the audience - including those who want him dead because they haven't realized which role he got.

A long time, I have believed that Kylo and Leia would get some similar scene to Anakin and Shmi, with Kylo coming to save his mother:

However, I begins to wonder if actually we wouldn't get  that kind of scene by the end of TLJ:

So maybe TLJ could end with Kylo's "death" after Snoke gets what he wants from him and Rey would end up being the galaxy's "only hope" because she would have the life of the only Skywalker legacy child and the fate of the galaxy in her hands Question

The good news in this is that providing we get this kind of tragic ending in TLJ,  we already know what happened next  to all these characters who "died" (except Padme):
Spoiler:


So no matter his trajectory, his amount of screen time, the few interactions he may have with Rey in TLJ, Kylo will be important - if not the most important - character in TLJ because as the only legacy child of the Skywalker family, he is the centerpiece of a tragedy in a film whose main plot is "all about family". That's why, I have faith in the place Rian gave him in this story no matter the few images and information we get about him and his relationship with Rey Very Happy


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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by vaderito on Wed 19 Jul 2017 - 21:52

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@snufkin wrote:So first the Finalizer, now the Silencer. The FO can't even name their ships after former heroes, it has to be extra melodramatic like we have the final word as we silence our opponents? The rhetoric is so over the top that I'm surprised that Bloodline didn't include something about how part of their In the Shadows operation was a chain of Crossfit gyms across the galaxy.
@snufkin
Kind of a silly name but the ship looks cool, so no complaints from me. Laughing

@Vaderito
Okay, so I want to get to the bottom of this even though I'll never be able to. If Rey and Chewie end up at the Resistance together and Luke and Kylo are both MIA post Ahch-To, is it reasonable to assume they could be together? The four of them split up, Luke with Kylo on the Tie Silencer (now that we have a name for it) and Rey with Chewie on the Falcon. Question is, is Kylo the captive or is Luke the captive? And how does this result in a reunion with Leia? Hmm.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Silencer is big enough to host a bachelor party let alone just Kylo and Luke. Also, there's Luke's drowned X Wing to complicate things. But I think it's Kylo and Luke leaving or Rey brings Kylo to Crait. Or Crait is at the end of the movie. I know, we need more info. Doesn't Silencer crash on Ahch-to?

What we know is that Kylo and Leia will have at least one scene and that's a good start. Now we need the timeline. I prefer that Kylo meets leia where rey is so that they have scenes too but who knows?

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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by Piper Maru on Wed 19 Jul 2017 - 21:54

Hahaha Kylo is so extra. He's basically flying the Galaxy Far Far Away version of a Porsche.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by ZioRen on Wed 19 Jul 2017 - 21:56

Oh man, that ship is sexyyy. Don't go good too quickly, Kylo, because I want to see you WRECK some people in that ship! I really hope we get some awesome Kylo piloting in TLJ.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by vaderito on Wed 19 Jul 2017 - 22:06

@ZioRen wrote:Oh man, that ship is sexyyy. Don't go good too quickly, Kylo, because I want to see you WRECK some people in that ship! I really hope we get some awesome Kylo piloting in TLJ.
@ZioRen

I see a ship in making. Poe has BB8, Kylo has BSomething. Poe and Kylo duke it out in a dogfight. Kylo is brought to Crait, Poe puts him in bondage. Twisted Evil
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Wed 19 Jul 2017 - 22:21

@Piper Maru wrote:Hahaha Kylo is so extra. He's basically flying the Galaxy Far Far Away version of a Porsche.
@Piper Maru
He ordered it from Sienar Jaemus FO catalogue. Impulse buy.


Real prop photo, do not steal.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Wed 19 Jul 2017 - 22:25

One of the FB comments on that Star War show video: "Kylo Ren is still alive booo." LMAO
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by Maria Antonietta on Wed 19 Jul 2017 - 22:28

IT'S SO EXTRA, OMG
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by vaderito on Wed 19 Jul 2017 - 22:41

Guys, which dress is Leia wearing (third circle):



Cause the color determines when this happens in the movie. Grey is earlier:







Brown is later (crait):




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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by bossbaby on Wed 19 Jul 2017 - 22:53

It looks most like this overcoat to me.

@vaderito wrote:Guys, which dress is Leia wearing (third circle):

@vaderito

But more than anything it looks like a black and white striped shirt to me:



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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by Persephone on Wed 19 Jul 2017 - 22:55

@Piper Maru wrote:Hahaha Kylo is so extra. He's basically flying the Galaxy Far Far Away version of a Porsche.
@Piper Maru

Lol! exactly
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by Moonlight13 on Wed 19 Jul 2017 - 22:57

@bossbaby wrote:
It looks most like this overcoat to me.

@vaderito wrote:Guys, which dress is Leia wearing (third circle):

@vaderito
@bossbaby

Yes. I see the little "stripes" from that outfit.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by EchoBase on Wed 19 Jul 2017 - 22:59



So, if these are really detailed, Kylo's ship looks....used? Maybe because of a mild crash on an island?


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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by Darth_Awakened on Wed 19 Jul 2017 - 23:03

some more (older) images of the Resistance and its ship (?):


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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by snufkin on Wed 19 Jul 2017 - 23:17

@Persephone wrote:
@Piper Maru wrote:Hahaha Kylo is so extra. He's basically flying the Galaxy Far Far Away version of a Porsche.
@Piper Maru

Lol! exactly
@Persephone

The other thing which is so amusing about his ship is that which other male character is way into his souped up bad a** ship? Gee Kylo, tell us again how you're not at all like your dad.

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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by EchoBase on Wed 19 Jul 2017 - 23:19

Look at this:



She does have a bruise above her eye!

Credits to DaisyRidreyNews on Twitter, here's the original link:

https://twitter.com/daisyridreynews/status/887778749864869891
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by reylo1992 on Wed 19 Jul 2017 - 23:20

@vaderito wrote:Guys, which dress is Leia wearing (third circle):



Cause the color determines when this happens in the movie. Grey is earlier:







Brown is later (crait):




@vaderito

Agree. I think that grey costume would be the first one  and dark brown the second, or anyway for later in the movie

By the way, could it be Adam next to Carrie  Question  Here she is wearing the dark brown costume. It seems like the guy next to her is a wearing dark robe, has sort of a cape and looks really tall compared to her..and they're obviously filming at this moment.


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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by reylo1992 on Wed 19 Jul 2017 - 23:24

@EchoBase wrote:Look at this:



She does have a bruise above her eye!

Credits to DaisyRidreyNews on Twitter, here's the original link:

https://twitter.com/daisyridreynews/status/887778749864869891
@EchoBase

Bravo! cheers  So it seems we didn't imagine the bruise she had there:
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by ladyconsular on Wed 19 Jul 2017 - 23:42

Here's your stripes (the pattern in the light makes it look that way on her shoulder)! Leia is in grey in that scene with Kylo!



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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by SanghaRen on Wed 19 Jul 2017 - 23:54

@reylo1992

I was looking at it just 30 minutes ago. It looks to me like a uniform. And in the monitor there are 2 people with her? I would say the one to the left is a man with short hair and the one to the right is a woman. I even wondered if it was Rey. In the monitor the height difference is less dramatic. So real person I would have said maybe Kylo but then in the monitor I would say no. I thought it could be BdT. But who knows.

Where everyone sees CF, I actually thought it was DR first. Now I can see how it could be CF. So I am not good at that and I am also wary about seeing what I want to see Smile

EDIT

They really look like uniforms to me. I wonder if it's not OI in a khaki jacket looking into the monitor. And then there's a person with a brown-gold jacket behind the equipment right in the middle. And I would tend to say the tall guy to the right also wears a khaki jacket. Looks like a group shoot. I tend to think she's with the Resistance saying goodbye to someone or different people. I am really bad at this.


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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by snufkin on Wed 19 Jul 2017 - 23:55

Hmm, total speculation but perhaps after what happens on Ache-to, Rey alone returns with Chewie to find Leia and deliver the sad news that her brother won't be joining them. And then a la the first movie, guess who decides to show up?



I mean, at some point he has to have this moment, right? A lot of the theorizing about whatever happened in the Force vision with him skewering somebody to save Rey is essentially thinking that it's the same moment where that type of character (and father and son no less) make the choice to stop being a selfish a** and come to the aid of somebody they've started to care about. And in this situation, it'd be an unexpected shock. Though the whole point really is that Leia wants him to "come back" and Rey is the person who can make this happen.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by ladyconsular on Wed 19 Jul 2017 - 23:57

@SanghaRen wrote:@reylo1992

I was looking at it just 30 minutes ago. It looks to me like a uniform. And in the monitor there are 2 people with her? I would say the one to the left is a man with short hair and the one to the right is a woman. I even wondered if it was Rey. In the monitor the height difference is less dramatic. So real person I would have said maybe Kylo but then in the monitor I would say no. I thought it could be BdT. But who knows.

Where everyone sees CF, I actually thought it was DR first. Now I can see how it could be CF. So I am not good at that and I am also wary about seeing what I want to see Smile
@SanghaRen

It just confirms what Adam said about being on set with Carrie still dressed as Leia.

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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by Kessel on Thu 20 Jul 2017 - 0:34

So it's official..."[Kylo] Ren is an expert pilot -- thanks to skills passed down from his father -- which he puts to use in exploiting his ship's speed and ferocity. There is no other First Order craft like the TIE silencer, and it is an effective tool in Ren's mission to destroy the Resistance."

http://www.starwars.com/databank/tie-silencer

As if there would be any doubt he'd be an amazing pilot. Smile


Last edited by Kessel on Thu 20 Jul 2017 - 0:37; edited 1 time in total
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