Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by Darth_Awakened on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 12:25 pm

@nemapasara wrote:
@Darth_Awakened wrote:I just realized there could a bit too much fire on Anch To:

- The tree (MSW saw the pic - so it's pretty much confirmed)
- The Silencer or whatever ship it is (smoke machines on the lawn - it's could be called confirmed as well)
- the fire in the vision (The temple)
- the fire behind Kylo in the trailer (if it's Anch To, and I believe it is - could be part of any  fire moment)
- exploding hut

The symbolism of fire is present everywhere on that island hmmmm...
@Darth_Awakened

Nevermind, I'm clearly blind! Geez, ignore me. But yes, fire and water. Both very important to TFA, too.
@nemapasara

Yes!

Agree with both you and @ISeeAnIsland

Water (sea and rain ) vs Fire
It seems that Rian chose to play heavily with the symbolism of it.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by panki on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 12:32 pm

WhatGirl wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@DarthRen wrote:
WhatGirl wrote:I think they are going to have Rey save herself. Despite having grown up on a desert planet, she'll somehow be a champion swimmer who doesn't need anyone's help after diving/falling off that cliff.

Or yes, it'll be a sea creature who saves her. I get the impression they don't want to show the heroine being saved by a male character in this trilogy. Even when Finn and co. went after her on SKB, she didn't need them - she'd already freed herself and was getting ready to steal a ship.
@WhatGirl

A lot of people have this problem with Rey. She is too perfect in some aspects. I want strong female characters that can do what men's do but some vulnerability somehow adds as much as strengths. It helps you to sympathize with that character even more so, or at least for me.

Kylo sort of saved Rey ina vision, even if she was just "a fly on the wall", it happened and they can build from it. That can sell connection they want to make between them. So I think it's possible that Kylo might save her and they're saving that for a moment between them. I want to believe in that.
@DarthRen

I think it would add to her "Mary Sue" image a bit and even I would side eye Rian Johnson if he writes her as a capable swimmer. But we haven't seen her swimming...yet! Only going into the water. Who knows who or what might save her... Maybe she does it herself, but I'd rather Luke snatch her out of the water with the Force at this point. Maybe it could be Luke's moment to do something that shows he cares about her, when he'd been pretty "Meh" about helping her up until that point.

@Cowgirlsamurai

Tbh I'm already side-eyeing because in the BTS clips we see her doing an almost perfect dive. She then immediately begins to move her arms in breaststroke form.



If they've written her to be a proficient swimmer without any experience or a single lesson, I'm not sure what is the message here frankly. I mean, it's not exactly a good example for little girls to make it seem you can compete on an athletic swim team with the best of them without any practice. It's weird and unrealistic.
@WhatGirl

There is another canon story where someone was asked to defeat and eventually kill an aquatic monster as part of his force training and for this purpose he undergoes rigorous physical training, including learning to swim and learning to hold his breath for long periods of time underwater.

I remember reading a rumor that episode 8 will show time lapses....this would be ideal to show Rey training on the island- running, swimming , diving, learning to hold her breath etc. before she takes up the challenge of killing the monster. Being a survivor, extremely athletic and having upper body strength from handling her Jakku speeder, am sure she'll pick up swimming and diving really fast. I know people in RL who learned to swim as adults and it only took them a day or so to pick it up, and breast stroke is one of the easier strokes to pick up.

I think it would be bad story telling to make Rey master swimming and diving on her first attempt, but it would be excellent to see a montage of her undergoing hardcore and punishing training under Luke after which she goes after the aquatic creature. That scene in the teaster trailer of her standing before the water could be this moment. This would dispel any further Mary Sue rumors and give a great message to little girls about taking up challenges and being strong.


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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 12:49 pm

@snufkin wrote:If he crashes his ship into that tree, he'll never live it down! The big question still is how he ever shows up there. Did he manage to sneak it out of Rey's mind when they were feeling the Force together? Which would be a feat, because men tend to be, er, single minded in those type of situations. Or does he seriously go after the Resistance and then ask Mommy for the map because he left his Vader jammies at Uncle Luke's house (and can I have $10 plz?).

As for the water tank, I'd lay odds on the sea monster scenario and if he does anything to help/save her, it'll be when he's forced to make a decision where his allegiance lies. Probably the speculated fighting together scenario. And self rescuing is already a thing with the heroines in the franchise, going back to Leia's "this is some rescue" moment and blasting open the wall to the trash compactor. The only kind of rescue she ever really got was Han dragging her a** off of Hoth while she was sniping at him the entire time. Actually between the trash compactor and defrosting him from carbonite (plus murdering the slug which he owed money to), Leia tended to be the one doing the rescuing in that relationship. She even rescues him from being captured from the FO in TFA, or at least an awkward preliminary father-son reunion.
@snufkin

The shot of the Silencer on the Lego box makes me think that Kylo will get the map directly from the Resistance base on D'Qar. He won't even need to confront his mommy yet--he'll just need to find a Resistance soldier who saw the map and pull it from their mind. Heck, if they want to be super dramatic about it, you could have Kylo stomp into the previously-evacuated conference room where the map is still up, and he can see it for himself.

And if Rey goes over the cliff, I agree that the sea monster is going to be more likely to help Rey than anyone else. Why else have her fight the sea monster unless it's going to come back and be important later? If it's not the sea monster, and someone else saves her, I doubt it'll be as dramatic as Kylo diving in after her--it's too early in the story for that, IMO. Kylo or Luke will probably force-pull her back up to the cliff (there was rumored to be "a lot of wire work" involved in the scene--and we did see shots of the scaffolding set up next to the cliff). If he's saving her this early, it'll be for selfish reasons (e.g. he needs Rey to help him access something in the temple).

I do fully expect Kylo to save Rey at some point, probably in TLJ, but like you say, it'll be a pivotal turning point in the story, and that's where his allegiances will also start to change.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by snufkin on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 1:00 pm

@ISeeAnIsland - if he's going after somebody from the Resistance, please can it be Greg Grunberg?. I understand that he's JJ's childhood friend, but there was no way I could take that guy seriously as a competent/trusted member of Leia's inner circle. Yes I know his character was in the Wendig novels. But he essentially plays himself in every role, which is somebody who seems nice but a light weight. I really got jarred in TFA having him show up because he'll always remind me of being Ben's goofball wannabe inventor (and incredibly annoying) roommate on Felicity. So if Kylo wants to stomp around and terrorize somebody into handing the map, I vote for that guy. Plus he kind of deserves it after he blabbed that JJ was sad that he didn't get to direct TLJ after reading the script and sort of embarrassed JJ into having to do damage control for that comment.  

You are probably right that even though 'feeling the Force' or Force Skype would be most logically, they built that ship as part of fulfilling the nerd/collector quota and having it do enough things on screen (plus a bada** villain) moment to satisfy the traditionalists. It would be hilarious, but not likely if the whole point is that he flies off to Ache-to and then crashes it.

Yep, early on if he saves her, it'll be for selfish reasons and like you mention, do some cool Force sh*t to satisfy the part of the audience expecting that. Anything that happens has to be later in the story after they've had time to butt heads/get to know and grudgingly trust each other. And a moment where he does it unselfishly will be pivotal, like showing where his allegiances start to change and the "weak and foolish" side of him coming out stronger.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by SoloSideCousin on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 1:19 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@WhatGirl

That's the other thing isn't it? She seems to be diving, not falling. It's pretty unbelievable that someone who's never swum before would dive into the ocean.
@Cowgirlsamurai

I've always thought that BTS shot looked like she was deliberately diving in and starting to swim (as opposed to flailing).

I'm only half-joking when I say that maybe she pulled her swimming ability from Kylo's mind. She looks like she's in her Resistance outfit for that dive, so whatever that scene is, it likely comes in the first half or 2/3 of the movie (before the costume change).

This does jog my memory that from shooting reports, there was a "water tunnel" set up in Ireland, so at the time of the shoot, we did a fair amount of speculation that there would be some underwater scene(s).
@ISeeAnIsland

I want to believe there is some other explantation here than Rey suddenly knowing how to swim.  The ONLY way I can see this is feasible is if she were to pull it from Kylo's head.  It's going to have to be more obvious to the audience this time around than when Pablo confirming this in a tweet after the movie is released, like he did for TFA.

If this is done to reveal the Force bond I guess I'm okay with it, but it still seems to be sprinkled with a bit of Mary Sue.

If Rey does with zero explanation, then the Mary Sue criticisms, which I've never been fond of, are absolutely valid.  

I do want to with hold judgement though until I see the actual movie.
@IoJovi

Oh, I agree. We also don't actually know at what point after the "rain fight" Rey changes her costume. We'd all assumed that it was fairly immediately after, but we have now seen that BTS shot where she's got wet hair, worn down and her vest on, so perhaps some time passes between the "fight" and the costume change? And maybe it's enough time for her to learn how to swim?

I really don't think that shot of Rey diving in is from her getting knocked off or falling off the cliff, anyway. Her dive looks way too deliberate, IMO. We know there was a big water tank set up at Pinewood, we know that there were things shot on jetskis, and we know there was that "water tunnel" in Ireland, so there has to be more going on in the waters of Ahch-To than Rey simply falling in and potentially fighting a sea monster. (The sea monster fight could even take place on the rocks, if you go off of that beercan chicken shot.)  I think the "diving in and swimming" shot comes from something completely unrelated to the rain fight, and could possibly take place after she's been on Ahch-To for a while.
@ISeeAnIsland

I am sure that there will be more to the water than Rey falling and/or sea monster.  The pinball game revealed that Luke's ship is underwater.  Also, remember all those water tank pictures with the grey rocky walls from Rian's Instagram and the BTS.  (MH and Rian are sitting there talking next to that wall).  I think that there is going to be a watery cave and/or cave diving sequence.  Remember how Kira was supposed to retrieve something from some underwater Emperor's throne room? They are probably repurposing that. 

Also, remember how there were reports of climbers on the Irish cliffs? If any of you have seen the Antonio Banderas movie The 13th Warrior, there is a sequence where the Vikings and Antonio's character have to go into a settlement inside caves and they get trapped and their only chance of surviving is to follow the sound of water, which leads them flying out the cliff face to the surf below.  There could be something like that here.  All this diving could be about a search for an object ... and by that point, Kylo may have already taught her to swim. Very Happy

Also, yes, I have been noticing the abundance of fire for a long time. It's all over the place in the movie.  And then there is all that water.  You know what had significant fire and water? Letter Never Sent.  Also, didn't @Nonesuch write up an essay that Rian liked discussing a deeper meaning behind natural elements like fire and water and what they might mean for TLJ? I can't remember exactly.  There is just too much information, but I think he is going to have a very, very multi-layered production going on here.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by SoloSideCousin on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 1:40 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@snufkin wrote:If he crashes his ship into that tree, he'll never live it down! The big question still is how he ever shows up there. Did he manage to sneak it out of Rey's mind when they were feeling the Force together? Which would be a feat, because men tend to be, er, single minded in those type of situations. Or does he seriously go after the Resistance and then ask Mommy for the map because he left his Vader jammies at Uncle Luke's house (and can I have $10 plz?).

As for the water tank, I'd lay odds on the sea monster scenario and if he does anything to help/save her, it'll be when he's forced to make a decision where his allegiance lies. Probably the speculated fighting together scenario. And self rescuing is already a thing with the heroines in the franchise, going back to Leia's "this is some rescue" moment and blasting open the wall to the trash compactor. The only kind of rescue she ever really got was Han dragging her a** off of Hoth while she was sniping at him the entire time. Actually between the trash compactor and defrosting him from carbonite (plus murdering the slug which he owed money to), Leia tended to be the one doing the rescuing in that relationship. She even rescues him from being captured from the FO in TFA, or at least an awkward preliminary father-son reunion.
@snufkin

The shot of the Silencer on the Lego box makes me think that Kylo will get the map directly from the Resistance base on D'Qar. He won't even need to confront his mommy yet--he'll just need to find a Resistance soldier who saw the map and pull it from their mind. Heck, if they want to be super dramatic about it, you could have Kylo stomp into the previously-evacuated conference room where the map is still up, and he can see it for himself.

And if Rey goes over the cliff, I agree that the sea monster is going to be more likely to help Rey than anyone else. Why else have her fight the sea monster unless it's going to come back and be important later?  If it's not the sea monster, and someone else saves her, I doubt it'll be as dramatic as Kylo diving in after her--it's too early in the story for that, IMO. Kylo or Luke will probably force-pull her back up to the cliff (there was rumored to be "a lot of wire work" involved in the scene--and we did see shots of the scaffolding set up next to the cliff). If he's saving her this early, it'll be for selfish reasons (e.g. he needs Rey to help him access something in the temple).

I do fully expect Kylo to save Rey at some point, probably in TLJ, but like you say, it'll be a pivotal turning point in the story, and that's where his allegiances will also start to change.
@ISeeAnIsland

I think that there is a good chance that it could be Kylo doing a Force Freeze followed by a Force Pull if she falls.  Those are his specific skills in the game.  This would be an excellent way to show them off  We've seen some of the freeze with Poe and when he freezes her.  But it will be fanboy cool for sure to have him freeze her mid-air and then to either defy gravity and have her basically force walk up the cliff face or just defy gravity by having her just kind of fly back up to him.  I don't think we've seen that exact thing in SW before.  I could be wrong because I haven't read/seen all the content, but I think it would look cool onscreen.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 1:44 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@WhatGirl

That's the other thing isn't it? She seems to be diving, not falling. It's pretty unbelievable that someone who's never swum before would dive into the ocean.
@Cowgirlsamurai

I've always thought that BTS shot looked like she was deliberately diving in and starting to swim (as opposed to flailing).

I'm only half-joking when I say that maybe she pulled her swimming ability from Kylo's mind. She looks like she's in her Resistance outfit for that dive, so whatever that scene is, it likely comes in the first half or 2/3 of the movie (before the costume change).

This does jog my memory that from shooting reports, there was a "water tunnel" set up in Ireland, so at the time of the shoot, we did a fair amount of speculation that there would be some underwater scene(s).
@ISeeAnIsland

I want to believe there is some other explantation here than Rey suddenly knowing how to swim.  The ONLY way I can see this is feasible is if she were to pull it from Kylo's head.  It's going to have to be more obvious to the audience this time around than when Pablo confirming this in a tweet after the movie is released, like he did for TFA.

If this is done to reveal the Force bond I guess I'm okay with it, but it still seems to be sprinkled with a bit of Mary Sue.

If Rey does with zero explanation, then the Mary Sue criticisms, which I've never been fond of, are absolutely valid.  

I do want to with hold judgement though until I see the actual movie.
@IoJovi

Oh, I agree. We also don't actually know at what point after the "rain fight" Rey changes her costume. We'd all assumed that it was fairly immediately after, but we have now seen that BTS shot where she's got wet hair, worn down and her vest on, so perhaps some time passes between the "fight" and the costume change? And maybe it's enough time for her to learn how to swim?

I really don't think that shot of Rey diving in is from her getting knocked off or falling off the cliff, anyway. Her dive looks way too deliberate, IMO. We know there was a big water tank set up at Pinewood, we know that there were things shot on jetskis, and we know there was that "water tunnel" in Ireland, so there has to be more going on in the waters of Ahch-To than Rey simply falling in and potentially fighting a sea monster. (The sea monster fight could even take place on the rocks, if you go off of that beercan chicken shot.)  I think the "diving in and swimming" shot comes from something completely unrelated to the rain fight, and could possibly take place after she's been on Ahch-To for a while.
@ISeeAnIsland

I am sure that there will be more to the water than Rey falling and/or sea monster.  The pinball game revealed that Luke's ship is underwater.  Also, remember all those water tank pictures with the grey rocky walls from Rian's Instagram and the BTS.  (MH and Rian are sitting there talking next to that wall).  I think that there is going to be a watery cave and/or cave diving sequence.  Remember how Kira was supposed to retrieve something from some underwater Emperor's throne room? They are probably repurposing that. 

Also, remember how there were reports of climbers on the Irish cliffs? If any of you have seen the Antonio Banderas movie The 13th Warrior, there is a sequence where the Vikings and Antonio's character have to go into a settlement inside caves and they get trapped and their only chance of surviving is to follow the sound of water, which leads them flying out the cliff face to the surf below.  There could be something like that here.  All this diving could be about a search for an object ... and by that point, Kylo may have already taught her to swim. Very Happy

Also, yes, I have been noticing the abundance of fire for a long time. It's all over the place in the movie.  And then there is all that water.  You know what had significant fire and water? Letter Never Sent.  Also, didn't @Nonesuch write up an essay that Rian liked discussing a deeper meaning behind natural elements like fire and water and what they might mean for TLJ? I can't remember exactly.  There is just too much information, but I think he is going to have a very, very multi-layered production going on here.
@SoloSideCousin

YES!!! I feel like we're so far removed from the actual TLJ shoot at this point (it wrapped over a year ago) that we've sort of forgotten about some of the things that haven't shown up in the trailer or BTS reels. There are actually a LOT of breadcrumbs/reports from the Ahch-To side of things that we know nothing about.

I get the sense that the GA vibe of the Ahch-To plot is going to be that Rey shows up > Luke is reluctant to train her > Luke changes his mind and gives Rey some training > Kylo shows up > They fight > everyone leaves. In reality, I don't think it's going to be anything like that.

Rian did say that RotLA and LNS were both influences (along with Three Outlaw Samurai and Bridge Over the River Kwai)...movies about adventure, and searching for something...and learning to work together with your "enemies" and/or seeing their sides of things.

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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by snufkin on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 1:46 pm

@SoloSideCousin - I could see that happening, along with the business of allowing him to go through her memories once she's comfortable enough to look into what happened with her abandonment. Like it would be a no-brainer if you have somebody with a very specific, never before seen skillset that those not only get used to advance the story (Vader's stuff may have looked cool, but it was essentially party tricks meant to look scary). And so far they've been good about showing comparison moments with him, so as with stopping Poe's bolt, getting shot by Chewie, it'd be a reversal to how he kidnapped her the first time around.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by Xylo Ren on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 2:53 pm

Kylo needs to save her, it's a trope that needs to happen for their story and dynamics to progress.

If he saves her from something, he'll start to gain her trust as well as the audience's. We will see his "humanity" (Adam's word) and we will also see expectations overturned (how many times have we seen the cast say something along those lines??).

Rey already knowing how to swim? What a joke! If they pull that there's no way anyone will be able to believe it. They shouldn't have put her on a desert planet if they wanted to foreshadow that skill. They could've put her on a swamp planet or even show some type of swimming hole on Jakku.

She's completely out of her element and surrounded by water. There's no reason to have her fall in if she already knows how to swim. We already know she can handle herself. It's Kylo's chivalry we need to be convinced of.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 3:07 pm

@Xylo Ren wrote:Kylo needs to save her, it's a trope that needs to happen for their story and dynamics to progress.

If he saves her from something, he'll start to gain her trust as well as the audience's. We will see his "humanity" (Adam's word) and we will also see expectations overturned (how many times have we seen the cast say something along those lines??).

Rey already knowing how to swim? What a joke! If they pull that there's no way anyone will be able to believe it. They shouldn't have put her on a desert planet if they wanted to foreshadow that skill. They could've put her on a swamp planet or even show some type of swimming hole on Jakku.

She's completely out of her element and surrounded by water. There's no reason to have her fall in if she already knows how to swim. We already know she can handle herself. It's Kylo's chivalry we need to be convinced of.
@Xylo Ren

I don't think there will be any shortage of opportunities for Rey to interact with water in the Ahch-To plot. Even if she doesn't know how to swim when she arrives, I suspect she'll be a competent swimmer by the time she leaves. Like @SoloSideCousin said, there were several sets that we know about that had a water element--those can't all be for her "fall" or sea monster battle or whatever.

Then again, I also don't believe that the shot of Rey diving into the pool and transitioning to a breast stroke is connected to the rain fight in any way.

Of course, who knows how she'll learn to swim???
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by IoJovi on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 3:11 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Xylo Ren wrote:Kylo needs to save her, it's a trope that needs to happen for their story and dynamics to progress.

If he saves her from something, he'll start to gain her trust as well as the audience's. We will see his "humanity" (Adam's word) and we will also see expectations overturned (how many times have we seen the cast say something along those lines??).

Rey already knowing how to swim? What a joke! If they pull that there's no way anyone will be able to believe it. They shouldn't have put her on a desert planet if they wanted to foreshadow that skill. They could've put her on a swamp planet or even show some type of swimming hole on Jakku.

She's completely out of her element and surrounded by water. There's no reason to have her fall in if she already knows how to swim. We already know she can handle herself. It's Kylo's chivalry we need to be convinced of.
@Xylo Ren

I don't think there will be any shortage of opportunities for Rey to interact with water in the Ahch-To plot. Even if she doesn't know how to swim when she arrives, I suspect she'll be a competent swimmer by the time she leaves. Like @SoloSideCousin said, there were several sets that we know about that had a water element--those can't all be for her "fall" or sea monster battle or whatever.

Then again, I also don't believe that the shot of Rey diving into the pool and transitioning to a breast stroke is connected to the rain fight in any way.

Of course, who knows how she'll learn to swim???
@ISeeAnIsland

I was just going to say this.  It's highly likely now there's a time jump in TLJ and I think this will cover the time they're on Ach-To.  If it's a year and they're on water planet, that's an adequate amount of time for Rey to learn to swim.  

What's a better question about this time jump is if Kylo is present by the time it comes about.   Is he on Ach-To with Rey and Luke for that year's duration? That'll be interesting...
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by Xylo Ren on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 3:18 pm

Yeah but where's the drama in that? She falls in the water and already knows how to swim?

And how will she gain Kylo's trust? How will the audience start to see a tipping point in him?

And what about his significant costume change that frees up his legs for movement?

These are just my questions for thought. I know the infamous cliff scene has been wishy washy for a while and it doesn't have to happen that exact way but there has to be some instance where Kylo puts it all out there- his selflessness, courage, and "personal interests". That or I really don't see a pull for these two to change towards each other. We already know Rey is good...Kylo's turn to prove his potential, imo.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by Xylo Ren on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 3:21 pm

I'm just trying to see how they'd change the audience's mind on Kylo, besides sappy puppy backstory. That'll work to a certain degree for sure, but we need to see his real-time actions drive towards his redemption, not just his history making it easier for him. If that makes sense?
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by IoJovi on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 3:24 pm

@Xylo Ren wrote:Yeah but where's the drama in that? She falls in the water and already knows how to swim?

And how will she gain Kylo's trust? How will the audience start to see a tipping point in him?

And what about his significant costume change that frees up his legs for movement?

These are just my questions for thought. I know the infamous cliff scene has been wishy washy for a while and it doesn't have to happen that exact way but there has to be some instance where Kylo puts it all out there- his selflessness, courage, and "personal interests". That or I really don't see a pull for these two to change towards each other. We already know Rey is good...Kylo's turn to prove his potential, imo.
@Xylo Ren

Agreed.  I'm certain if we are right about the true direction of their relationship, Kylo has to save her somehow.  Saving her from drowning is the perfect catalyst.  Showing Rey diving like she's a pro swimmer doesn't write this off the table, as that shot could be done after the time jump, especially if Kylo is there on the planet with her.  I'm sure I'm over simplifying here, but this is just for a timeline's sake of how it could happen:

Kylo Ren rescues her from the water
Rey, Kylo and Luke come to an uneasy truce.  Kylo is stranded, so really what choice does he have?
Time Jump
Rey is now Ach-To's Michael Phelps and Luke and Kylo cheer her on... Wink
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 3:28 pm

@IoJovi wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Xylo Ren wrote:Kylo needs to save her, it's a trope that needs to happen for their story and dynamics to progress.

If he saves her from something, he'll start to gain her trust as well as the audience's. We will see his "humanity" (Adam's word) and we will also see expectations overturned (how many times have we seen the cast say something along those lines??).

Rey already knowing how to swim? What a joke! If they pull that there's no way anyone will be able to believe it. They shouldn't have put her on a desert planet if they wanted to foreshadow that skill. They could've put her on a swamp planet or even show some type of swimming hole on Jakku.

She's completely out of her element and surrounded by water. There's no reason to have her fall in if she already knows how to swim. We already know she can handle herself. It's Kylo's chivalry we need to be convinced of.
@Xylo Ren

I don't think there will be any shortage of opportunities for Rey to interact with water in the Ahch-To plot. Even if she doesn't know how to swim when she arrives, I suspect she'll be a competent swimmer by the time she leaves. Like @SoloSideCousin said, there were several sets that we know about that had a water element--those can't all be for her "fall" or sea monster battle or whatever.

Then again, I also don't believe that the shot of Rey diving into the pool and transitioning to a breast stroke is connected to the rain fight in any way.

Of course, who knows how she'll learn to swim???
@ISeeAnIsland

I was just going to say this.  It's highly likely now there's a time jump in TLJ and I think this will cover the time they're on Ach-To.  If it's a year and they're on water planet, that's an adequate amount of time for Rey to learn to swim.  

What's a better question about this time jump is if Kylo is present by the time it comes about.   Is he on Ach-To with Rey and Luke for that year's duration? That'll be interesting...
@IoJovi

Even if it's a few weeks, that's plenty of time for Rey to learn to be a decent swimmer, at least.

TBH, I'm really scratching my head over how a time jump would work its way into this, given the little that we know of the plot so far:

* The D'Qar attack seems like it happens very early. Assuming that this is where Kylo gets the map, given how he was in TFA, I can't imagine him NOT heading straight to Ahch-To. He's not going to sit around for weeks on the Finalizer coming up with a strategy for that.
* Given that, and that it seems like he probably shows up on Ahch-To at the end of Act I, Rey probably wouldn't have spent more than a few weeks (at most) on Ahch-To. We've got some Jedi training, sea monster fighting, and trippy visions to fit into this. I guess she could learn how to swim here?
* Things are going to be INTENSE when Kylo shows up. And if his ship is wrecked (as suspected), he's going to be stuck there. Luke isn't going to want him there.
* At some point Luke blows up a hut. I can't see this happening after Kylo has already been hanging out with them for weeks, if Luke's actions come from a place of raw emotion.
* It hasn't been mentioned at all in any leaks we've got, but I still think there's going to be part of the Ahch-To plot where they need to search for something(s). I can't see Luke scaling cliffs or diving through caves in those Jedi robes, so it'd have to be Rey and/or Kylo. This seems like the most logical place for a time jump. But is the FO searching for Kylo at all during this time? Do they even know where he is?
* At some point, Rey, Kylo, and Chewie leave Ahch-To, whether together or separately. Does the FO show up at any point and Kylo leaves with them? Or does Kylo leave with Rey in the Falcon? If the FO shows up to retrieve Kylo, Luke and Rey aren't going to continue to hang around on Ahch-To.

Has anyone been able to wrap their heads around this better than me?

ETA: Also, given that there's no central romance in TLJ, the time jump has to be long enough for Kylo and Rey to become allies and start to develop feelings for each other...but not long enough for those feelings to progress into an actual romantic relationship. So, maybe a time jump of a few weeks or months at most? Cuz if the UST is as intense as we're expecting...they're not going to be hanging out on that island for a year with nothing physical happening between them.


Last edited by ISeeAnIsland on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 3:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by SoloSideCousin on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 3:30 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Xylo Ren wrote:Kylo needs to save her, it's a trope that needs to happen for their story and dynamics to progress.

If he saves her from something, he'll start to gain her trust as well as the audience's. We will see his "humanity" (Adam's word) and we will also see expectations overturned (how many times have we seen the cast say something along those lines??).

Rey already knowing how to swim? What a joke! If they pull that there's no way anyone will be able to believe it. They shouldn't have put her on a desert planet if they wanted to foreshadow that skill. They could've put her on a swamp planet or even show some type of swimming hole on Jakku.

She's completely out of her element and surrounded by water. There's no reason to have her fall in if she already knows how to swim. We already know she can handle herself. It's Kylo's chivalry we need to be convinced of.
@Xylo Ren

I don't think there will be any shortage of opportunities for Rey to interact with water in the Ahch-To plot. Even if she doesn't know how to swim when she arrives, I suspect she'll be a competent swimmer by the time she leaves. Like @SoloSideCousin said, there were several sets that we know about that had a water element--those can't all be for her "fall" or sea monster battle or whatever.

Then again, I also don't believe that the shot of Rey diving into the pool and transitioning to a breast stroke is connected to the rain fight in any way.

Of course, who knows how she'll learn to swim???
@ISeeAnIsland

Right, especially if Rian really is going delve deep into a fire and water theme.  I can't help think of the words "purge", "purify" and "baptism", along with "destroy" and "rebirth", when I think of what the  fire and water are in this context.  Fire purges, destroys and also "purifies", the last working well with that lightsider fanatic (Inquistorial) type of theory.  But there is also "baptism by fire", and "rebirth/rising like a phoenix" by fire, which might go very well with Kylo/Ben.  Water also "baptizes", gives new life (rebirth), cleans, restores, transforms.  There is something with "taking away the old and bringing in the new" at the very least here I think.

I also agree with @Xylo Ren that he has to save her at some point.  Maybe it's the water.  Maybe it's force pull.  Maybe it's a variation on the Forceback.  Maybe it's something we haven't even dreamed of. I don't know.  But there has to be a big moment where the GA realizes that he is not who they think he is at all.  Basically there needs to be some moment like Arnold's "Get down" moment in Terminator 2, where the guy who looks in every way to be the villain is actually not.  Instead, he's saving a hero.

I also do think that they will allow Rey to be saved by him.  She has more than proved that she is kick a** and can take care of herself and others.  But everyone needs saving sometimes.  To make her ridiculously perfect does nothing for women, and like @Xylo Ren said, he needs those kinds of moments for advance his character.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by Moonlight13 on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 3:31 pm

@Xylo Ren wrote:I'm just trying to see how they'd change the audience's mind on Kylo, besides sappy puppy backstory. That'll work to a certain degree for sure, but we need to see his real-time actions drive towards his redemption, not just his history making it easier for him. If that makes sense?
@Xylo Ren

I agree. He needs to do something big so the audience (and Rey) can see him in a new light.
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by Xylo Ren on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 3:35 pm

tf is this


(tumblr darcyfitz)

flashbacks or redemption TF IS THIS bounce
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Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Post by nemapasara on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 3:36 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Xylo Ren wrote:Kylo needs to save her, it's a trope that needs to happen for their story and dynamics to progress.

If he saves her from something, he'll start to gain her trust as well as the audience's. We will see his "humanity" (Adam's word) and we will also see expectations overturned (how many times have we seen the cast say something along those lines??).

Rey already knowing how to swim? What a joke! If they pull that there's no way anyone will be able to believe it. They shouldn't have put her on a desert planet if they wanted to foreshadow that skill. They could've put her on a swamp planet or even show some type of swimming hole on Jakku.

She's completely out of her element and surrounded by water. There's no reason to have her fall in if she already knows how to swim. We already know she can handle herself. It's Kylo's chivalry we need to be convinced of.
@Xylo Ren

I don't think there will be any shortage of opportunities for Rey to interact with water in the Ahch-To plot. Even if she doesn't know how to swim when she arrives, I suspect she'll be a competent swimmer by the time she leaves. Like @SoloSideCousin said, there were several sets that we know about that had a water element--those can't all be for her "fall" or sea monster battle or whatever.

Then again, I also don't believe that the shot of Rey diving into the pool and transitioning to a breast stroke is connected to the rain fight in any way.

Of course, who knows how she'll learn to swim???
@ISeeAnIsland

I was just going to say this.  It's highly likely now there's a time jump in TLJ and I think this will cover the time they're on Ach-To.  If it's a year and they're on water planet, that's an adequate amount of time for Rey to learn to swim.  

What's a better question about this time jump is if Kylo is present by the time it comes about.   Is he on Ach-To with Rey and Luke for that year's duration? That'll be interesting...
@IoJovi

Even if it's a few weeks, that's plenty of time for Rey to learn to be a decent swimmer, at least.

TBH, I'm really scratching my head over how a time jump would work its way into this, given the little that we know of the plot so far:

* The D'Qar attack seems like it happens very early. Assuming that this is where Kylo gets the map, given how he was in TFA, I can't imagine him NOT heading straight to Ahch-To. He's not going to sit around for weeks on the Finalizer coming up with a strategy for that.
* Given that, and that it seems like he probably shows up on Ahch-To at the end of Act I, Rey probably wouldn't have spent more than a few weeks (at most) on Ahch-To. We've got some Jedi training, sea monster fighting, and trippy visions to fit into this. I guess she could learn how to swim here?
* Things are going to be INTENSE when Kylo shows up. And if his ship is wrecked (as suspected), he's going to be stuck there. Luke isn't going to want him there.
* At some point Luke blows up a hut. I can't see this happening after Kylo has already been hanging out with them for weeks, if Luke's actions come from a place of raw emotion.
* It hasn't been mentioned at all in any leaks we've got, but I still think there's going to be part of the Ahch-To plot where they need to search for something(s). I can't see Luke scaling cliffs or diving through caves in those Jedi robes, so it'd have to be Rey and/or Kylo. This seems like the most logical place for a time jump. But is the FO searching for Kylo at all during this time? Do they even know where he is?
* At some point, Rey, Kylo, and Chewie leave Ahch-To, whether together or separately. Does the FO show up at any point and Kylo leaves with them? Or does Kylo leave with Rey in the Falcon? If the FO shows up to retrieve Kylo, Luke and Rey aren't going to continue to hang around on Ahch-To.

Has anyone been able to wrap their heads around this better than me?

ETA: Also, given that there's no central romance in TLJ, the time jump has to be long enough for Kylo and Rey to become allies and start to develop feelings for each other...but not long enough for those feelings to progress into an actual romantic relationship. So, maybe a time jump of a few weeks or months at most? Cuz if the UST is as intense as we're expecting...they're not going to be hanging out on that island for a year with nothing physical happening between them.
@ISeeAnIsland

Isn't there that theory that force strong planets have a different sense of time? That could be one way. And there's just that sense about islands that a day could feel like a week and a week like a month. They might not even have to say anything outright, just make the Ahch-To scenes longer and slower paced then the plot b stuff.
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