The Last Jedi: General Discussion

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by MindAndMagic on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 6:47 pm

I tend to agree with @Vaderito''s point about the standard "everybody gets challenged" talk. It's something you hear in marketing campaigns all too often: "we wanted to bring this inner conflict to a new level, explore new ground, dig deeper, etc.". I have no doubt that everybody will get some form of development. They will possibly explore the extremist side of the Resistance with Poe, Finn and Rose will have their fire-forged friends/lovers adventure and achieve heroic statuses/prove themselves, Finn will confront his fears embodied in his designated enemy, Phasma, etc. That said, the big drama with all the "shockers and twists" is obviously, as usual, related to the Force plot, i.e. Luke-Rey-Kylo with Rey right in the middle, acting as a metaphorical bridge b/w the two. I am obviously hyper biased, but I genuinely think that Kylo is objectively the most interesting character in this story, so naturally I expect the most exciting stuff to come from his arc.

I never bought the dark Luke theories, as interesting as they were, simply because, as others have said already, it's not really about Luke's redemption. The story already has a Big Bad in the face of Snoke, it doesn't need another one (unless you're one of those people who think Luke is secretly Snoke or controlling him in some way as the puppet master). It might not be the most risky move with his character and perhaps it seems underwhelming considering MH's reaction who he first read the script, but I never thought he meant he read something particularly shocking with regards to Luke. I don't see a big twist coming from him as a character, if anything it will be related to what he has discovered while on the island, which again goes back to Rey, Kylo and the power. This is the source of the twist, not Luke himself.

As for Luke's blame, as simple as it sounds, I think it's easily as simple as "Luke felt responsible for what happened with Ben because Han and Leia trusted him to take care of him and keep him safe, and he failed." He wasn't able to help Ben control his power or to foresee what would happen. Simple as that. I certainly don't think it will be a case of "Kylo being a whiny brat" , turning against his flawless uncle or whatever. Luke is definitely very, very flawed, full of bitterness and regret. He has his own brand of "darkness". Ever since the concept of the raw power came along, I've connected it to the accident at the temple. It's about Ben losing control and Luke being unable to help him. It's not a situation where you can clearly place the blame on anyone.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by reylo1992 on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 6:53 pm

@DeeBee wrote:
@vaderito wrote:Dark!Luke would steal the movie from everyone. Make Luke evil and nobody would talk about anything else. So it had to be half-way solution - not the Super Luke that some fans expect but a flawed man yet not irreversibly flawed (as in committing something really bad). You'll find plenty of fans who'll find that radical.
@vaderito

Hear hear @vaderito! I love the idea of flawed Luke.. he is not God. And it takes courage to admit that you are flawed and to correct your mistakes...it also takes courage to step into the fray knowing you may not have all the answers or come out on top - victory is not guaranteed for Luke - but you act because it is who you are, and in line with what you believe in. Not because victory is certain.
I never understood the Jedi phobia of fear - without fear there can be no courage!!!!!
@DeeBee

Totally agree with you. I think that Ben's fall probably led Luke to ask himself a lot of questions, among them:
1) Does it really in the Skywalker family to have borderline personalities that lead to the DS, making him question the redemption of his own father?
==> Maybe Luke thinks he is himself a potential danger to the galaxy?
2) Was the Jedi Sight (rejection of fear, rejection of attachment, rejection of the darkness, etc..) the proper way to use and balance the Force, making him question the teachings he got from Yoda and Obi-Wan?

I don't remember who brought this idea but it could be a sort of midlife crisis


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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 7:00 pm

@reylo1992 wrote:
@Saracene wrote:@SoloSideCousin It doesn't have to go from one extreme to another though. Luke not getting blame for Ben's turning doesn't have to mean that Ben will turn out to be a horrible selfish punk b**** who betrayed his saintly uncle and parents (a prediction which BTW I believe I never made).
@Saracene

I don't think that Luke will take all the blame but if we follow what Mark said to EW, he seems haunted by a pretty strong guilt feeling.

"[Luke] made a huge mistake in thinking that his nephew was the chosen one, so he invested everything he had in Kylo, much like Obi-Wan did with my character. And he is betrayed, with tragic consequences. Luke feels responsible for that. That’s the primary obstacle he has to rejoining the world and his place in the Jedi hierarchy, you know? It’s that guilt, that feeling that it’s his fault, that he didn’t detect the darkness in him until it was too late

Luke is not a coward but he maybe thinks that he is not worth any more to be in front of this fight against Snoke and the FO. But sooner or later like all other characters he'll have to let go of the past to move on and thus face his biggest challenge to come back.
@reylo1992
See, I don't think it's that he believes he isn't worthy. He's been trying to find a solution in his own way in the books in the Jedi tree library. I'm going a step further now, Rey and Kylo are part of a very bad prophesy, not a good one. Their prophesy won't surround bringing "balance" to the Force--at last not in writing. It'll be something scary.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by DeeBee on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 7:10 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@reylo1992 wrote:
@Saracene wrote:@SoloSideCousin It doesn't have to go from one extreme to another though. Luke not getting blame for Ben's turning doesn't have to mean that Ben will turn out to be a horrible selfish punk b**** who betrayed his saintly uncle and parents (a prediction which BTW I believe I never made).
@Saracene

I don't think that Luke will take all the blame but if we follow what Mark said to EW, he seems haunted by a pretty strong guilt feeling.

"[Luke] made a huge mistake in thinking that his nephew was the chosen one, so he invested everything he had in Kylo, much like Obi-Wan did with my character. And he is betrayed, with tragic consequences. Luke feels responsible for that. That’s the primary obstacle he has to rejoining the world and his place in the Jedi hierarchy, you know? It’s that guilt, that feeling that it’s his fault, that he didn’t detect the darkness in him until it was too late

Luke is not a coward but he maybe thinks that he is not worth any more to be in front of this fight against Snoke and the FO. But sooner or later like all other characters he'll have to let go of the past to move on and thus face his biggest challenge to come back.
@reylo1992
See, I don't think it's that he believes he isn't worthy. He's been trying to find a solution in his own way in the books in the Jedi tree library. I'm going a step further now, Rey and Kylo are part of a very bad prophesy, not a good one. Their prophesy won't surround bringing "balance" to the Force--at last not in writing. It'll be something scary.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Whooo this is really interesting!!!
When we look at the first prophecy of the chosen one - (Anakin)... that was seen as a positive prophecy by the Jedi. That would be great for them! Well, it certainly didn't turn out that way.... it was pretty negative for them -pretty much annihilation!

whereas if there is a prophecy about Rey and Kylo/Ben - maybe Luke is viewing it as a negative prophecy when it is actually positive?
Maybe what is positive for the force/balance etc. is not positive for Jedi... Luke may be grappling with this..
[This is a lot of maybes Smile ]

I'm not a fan of Rey and Ben being bad news.. and I hope we get a happy ending Smile

I figure the force will do what the force will do, with all the Jedi efforts with Anakin, it all fell apart.. for all their talk of not wielding the force for their own ends (as that is the sith way) the jedi IMHO interpreted the chosen one prophecy as being what they wanted it to be.. not what it actually was. Maybe if they had been guided by values rather than prohecy they would not have gotten into that mess.
while the PT don't hold a special place in my heart like the OT do.... I love the depth they give to the history!
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by DarthRen on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 7:12 pm

@reylo1992

As @FrolickingFizzgig said it, Luke is not hiding. He's trying to make a sense of this mess and Rey definitely, maybe Kylo too are a bad sign. I don't think raw power is anything good. The Harbinger of Death esque situation. I'm pretty convinced Rey is a bad omen coming to Ach-To, like some kind of apocalypse to Luke.


Last edited by DarthRen on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 7:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 7:18 pm

@DarthRen wrote:@"reylo1922"

As @FrolickingFizzgig said it, Luke is not hiding. He's trying to make a sense of this mess and Rey definitely, maybe Kylo too are a bad sign. I don't think raw power is anything good. The Harbinger of Death esque situation. I'm pretty convinced Rey is a bad omen coming to Ach-To, like some kind of apocalypse to Luke.
@DarthRen
I've also always had an inkling that Luke and Ben were actually looking for Rey long before all of this even started. Not because he was her long-lost daughter or whatever, but because Luke once believed both Ben (and another individual) were joint chosen ones. He was betrayed by Kylo and when he went to Ahch-To for answers what he ultimately found only served to push him into a deeper state of disillusionment. The destiny he believed was a good thing actually never was. He stayed there in an attempt to figure it all out, going through the histories of the Jedi in search of answers. Then years later cue Rey showing up. She has the same power as Ben and Luke immediately realizes she's the other "half" of the prophesy. It fits well, imo. And I know a lot of people don't like chosen one stories, but this is SW/a coming-of-age fantasy. It comes with the territory.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 7:23 pm

Why is Kylo hell bent on finding Luke again? Is it explicitly stated in the novel? I can't remember. To kill him and rid the galaxy of the Jedi, and also who Snoke considers their biggest threat? I definitely think Luke had something to do with Ben's fall. He's definitely being shown as Kylo's antagonist, but do they really want each other dead? Kylo kills his own father so I guess it's safe to assume he'd want his uncle who messed things up for him dead too.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 7:29 pm

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:Why is Kylo hell bent on finding Luke again? Is it explicitly stated in the novel? I can't remember. To kill him and rid the galaxy of the Jedi, and also who Snoke considers their biggest threat? I definitely think Luke had something to do with Ben's fall. He's definitely being shown as Kylo's antagonist, but do they really want each other dead? Kylo kills his own father so I guess it's safe to assume he'd want his uncle who messed things up for him dead too.
@Cowgirlsamurai
Actually, we don't know. Obviously it was one of Kylo's personal interests in TFA. While Kylo wanted to find Luke himself, Snoke actually just wanted the map destroyed. Nothing about TFA implies that Snoke gives any f***s whatsoever about about Luke or what happens to him as long as he doesn't reunite with the Resistance or bring about the rise of the "new Jedi". The assumption would be that Kylo wants the Jedi gone and therefore wants to kill Luke, but who knows? They haven't seen each other since the night of the temple incident. Luke just vanished. He hasn't been around to see what became of Kylo or Han (though I'm positive he knows full-well). Sad
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by spacebaby45678 on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 7:43 pm

Has anyone been reading The Legends of Luke Skywalker? It's canon and has interesting tales or myths of Luke's #raw powah... bringing star destroyers down on Jakku with force lightening? Confus Using darkside powers maybe?

Star Wars theory has an interesting excerpt.




Luke is not evil but he has been "different" since ROTJ what some today would call grey. As far as Kylo goes, I personally don't like to see him as a victim in as much it would weaken his anti hero potential. I would prefer ( my own head canon) that he had his own reasons and agenda for dancing on the dark side. As Kylo is the reverse of Anakin, and there are times one could view Anakin has a "victim" of Palpy's grooming, The Jedi Council not trusting him and Obi's inflexibility.. he was still responsible for his own actions.

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by IoJovi on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 7:46 pm

@spacebaby45678 wrote:Has anyone been reading The Legends of Luke Skywalker? It's canon and has interesting tales or myths of Luke's #raw powah... bringing star destroyers down on Jakku with force lightening?   Confus Using darkside powers maybe?

Star Wars theory has an interesting excerpt.




Luke is not evil but he has been "different" since ROTJ what some today would call grey. As far as Kylo goes, I personally don't like to see him as a victim in as much it would weaken his anti hero potential. I would prefer ( my own head canon) that he had his own reasons and agenda for dancing on the dark side. As Kylo is the reverse of Anakin, and there are times one could view Anakin has a "victim"  of Palpy's grooming, The Jedi Council not trusting him and Obi's inflexibility.. he was still responsible for his own actions.

@spacebaby45678

Ooooo is this out yet?  It was on my list to buy when it was on the shelf.  I knew it came out in November, and guess what I just remembered it’s November!

Thanks for the reminder... Smile
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 7:51 pm

@spacebaby45678 wrote:Has anyone been reading The Legends of Luke Skywalker? It's canon and has interesting tales or myths of Luke's #raw powah... bringing star destroyers down on Jakku with force lightening?   Confus Using darkside powers maybe?

Star Wars theory has an interesting excerpt.




Luke is not evil but he has been "different" since ROTJ what some today would call grey. As far as Kylo goes, I personally don't like to see him as a victim in as much it would weaken his anti hero potential. I would prefer ( my own head canon) that he had his own reasons and agenda for dancing on the dark side. As Kylo is the reverse of Anakin, and there are times one could view Anakin has a "victim"  of Palpy's grooming, The Jedi Council not trusting him and Obi's inflexibility.. he was still responsible for his own actions.

@spacebaby45678

Actually, Legends of Luke is not canon. I got the book and then found this out afterward. They are "legends" like campfire stories, so probably not much truth to them. Stories just for fun.

Edit: Book descriptions say it's canon but I've heard many hardcore fans say they're skipping this book because the legends themselves are exaggerated and "not canon." I'm still reading it for the entertainment factor.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by snufkin on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 7:56 pm

@DeeBee - I’ve always thought Rey’s motivation with BB-8 is that she does for him what nobody did for her, getting him safely home to where he belongs. I’d bet then scene at the beginning with Poe giving his Last of the Mohicans speech is what happened with her parents having to leave her on Jakku. Something bad went down and nobody in Niima thought to do anything to do with her other than put her to work as an indentured servant. That’s why she rescued him from Teedo and ultimately protects him from the FO and ensures that he’s reunited with Poe. So all of that and seeing the Solo family tragedy up close, she’s gonna be very confused and then angry with Luke. Who BTW has his own form of magical thinking about dead parents issues vis Bloodline.

Also she is the person who appears to have sat and mourned with Leia. And there is dialogue in the novel that they have discussed everything with each other, including what happened with Ben. So Rey is there to do something to help Leia by getting back what’s left of her family. Luke refusing, being stand offish and telling her she’s like Ben, that’s not going to go down well with Rey.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by DarthRen on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 8:07 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@DarthRen wrote:@"reylo1922"

As @FrolickingFizzgig said it, Luke is not hiding. He's trying to make a sense of this mess and Rey definitely, maybe Kylo too are a bad sign. I don't think raw power is anything good. The Harbinger of Death esque situation. I'm pretty convinced Rey is a bad omen coming to Ach-To, like some kind of apocalypse to Luke.
@DarthRen
I've also always had an inkling that Luke and Ben were actually looking for Rey long before all of this even started. Not because he was her long-lost daughter or whatever, but because Luke once believed both Ben (and another individual) were joint chosen ones. He was betrayed by Kylo and when he went to Ahch-To for answers what he ultimately found only served to push him into a deeper state of disillusionment. The destiny he believed was a good thing actually never was. He stayed there in an attempt to figure it all out, going through the histories of the Jedi in search of answers. Then years later cue Rey showing up. She has the same power as Ben and Luke immediately realizes she's the other "half" of the prophesy. It fits well, imo. And I know a lot of people don't like chosen one stories, but this is SW/a coming-of-age fantasy. It comes with the territory.
@FrolickingFizzgig

We know that not only Kylo but also Luke have heard of this girl. The way they put it "heard about her" really makes it seems like Luke and Ben were looking for her or trying to find out the missing piece of puzzle, which is Rey. If you put it alongside Kylo freaking out over her and It IS you from the novelization.

If Jakku truly surpressed her Force connection, means they were unable to locate her. I guess since everything from OT to ST is tied together aka Anakin's/Vader's legacy, it has to be about The Chosen One prophecy in some way, like anti The Chosen One(s) or something to that extent. We know that Luke was wrong in thinking that Ben was The Chosen One but maybe these are two people. Originally, I thought maybe it is only about Rey and mysterious connection is Force bond, but then came RAW Power concept ... just not sure if this is JJ's work too or strictly Rian's. I am guessing JJ just pushed into the stage, where the next director will decide. Since both of them are two halves of the protagonist, dark and light and something. It HAS to be about them. Neat way of connecting them.

Snoke never heard of her? He seemed surprised which is curious.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by reylo1992 on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 8:12 pm

@DeeBee wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@reylo1992 wrote:
@Saracene wrote:@SoloSideCousin It doesn't have to go from one extreme to another though. Luke not getting blame for Ben's turning doesn't have to mean that Ben will turn out to be a horrible selfish punk b**** who betrayed his saintly uncle and parents (a prediction which BTW I believe I never made).
@Saracene

I don't think that Luke will take all the blame but if we follow what Mark said to EW, he seems haunted by a pretty strong guilt feeling.

"[Luke] made a huge mistake in thinking that his nephew was the chosen one, so he invested everything he had in Kylo, much like Obi-Wan did with my character. And he is betrayed, with tragic consequences. Luke feels responsible for that. That’s the primary obstacle he has to rejoining the world and his place in the Jedi hierarchy, you know? It’s that guilt, that feeling that it’s his fault, that he didn’t detect the darkness in him until it was too late

Luke is not a coward but he maybe thinks that he is not worth any more to be in front of this fight against Snoke and the FO. But sooner or later like all other characters he'll have to let go of the past to move on and thus face his biggest challenge to come back.
@reylo1992
See, I don't think it's that he believes he isn't worthy. He's been trying to find a solution in his own way in the books in the Jedi tree library. I'm going a step further now, Rey and Kylo are part of a very bad prophesy, not a good one. Their prophesy won't surround bringing "balance" to the Force--at last not in writing. It'll be something scary.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Whooo this is really interesting!!!
When we look at the first prophecy of the chosen one - (Anakin)... that was seen as a positive prophecy by the Jedi. That would be great for them! Well, it certainly didn't turn out that way.... it was pretty negative for them -pretty much annihilation!

whereas if there is a prophecy about Rey and Kylo/Ben - maybe Luke is viewing it as a negative prophecy when it is actually positive?
Maybe what is positive for the force/balance etc. is not positive for Jedi... Luke may be grappling with this..
[This is a lot of maybes Smile ]

I'm not a fan of Rey and Ben being bad news.. and I hope we get a happy ending Smile

I figure the force will do what the force will do, with all the Jedi efforts with Anakin, it all fell apart.. for all their talk of not wielding the force for their own ends (as that is the sith way) the jedi IMHO interpreted the chosen one prophecy as being what they wanted it to be.. not what it actually was. Maybe if they had been guided by values rather than prohecy they would not have gotten into that mess.
while the PT don't hold a special place in my heart like the OT do.... I love the depth they give to the history!

@FrolickingFizzgig
@DeeBee

Very interesting theory! Thumbs up Kylo and Rey as part of a prophecy bringing chaos to the entire galaxy could make a shocking intertwined fate. When I heard about the raw power my mind went to nuclear weapon, weapon of mass destruction. Something that could be misused by weirdos like Snoke e to rule over the galaxy and could bring chaos at any moment
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by rey09 on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 8:31 pm

I'm very attached to the idea of Rey being the "harbinger of doom." It'd be interesting if that came to be true and Ben was actually supposed to be the light counterpart that has to stop her. Many levels of irony, I'd dig that. Ultimately they would choose to work together instead of one having to destroy the other. It'd be so damn emotional - like we're supposed to kill each other...but we love each other?
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 10:32 pm

@SoloSideCousin

FWIW, I didn't see that article debunking anything other than Luke having fallen to the dark side.

Maybe I'm just too optimistic, but after all of the hints we've gotten (the posters! that trailer!), I honestly believe that there's something more going on with Luke other than him being a disillusioned middle-aged man.

If there's a twist where Luke is the main antagonist on Ahch-To, Mark can't give that away in an interview. (And as others have pointed out here with some really good examples, a character can still be an antagonist with being a villain.) If Luke really believes that Rey (and possibly himself) are too dangerous to return to the rest of the galaxy, that could open up all sorts of nuanced tension. Or maybe the Knights of Rant are onto something with their harbinger of doom theory, which could be super interesting.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by IoJovi on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 10:40 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:@SoloSideCousin

FWIW, I didn't see that article debunking anything other than Luke having fallen to the dark side.

Maybe I'm just too optimistic, but after all of the hints we've gotten (the posters! that trailer!), I honestly believe that there's something more going on with Luke other than him being a disillusioned middle-aged man.

If there's a twist where Luke is the main antagonist on Ahch-To, Mark can't give that away in an interview. (And as others have pointed out here with some really good examples, a character can still be an antagonist with being a villain.)  If Luke really believes that Rey (and possibly himself) are too dangerous to return to the rest of the galaxy, that could open up all sorts of nuanced tension. Or maybe the Knights of Rant are onto something with their harbinger of doom theory, which could be super interesting.
@ISeeAnIsland

Same.  Even after this article, I STILL think something is not right with Luke.  Keep in mind that as one half of the protagonist, we’ll be getting Kylo’s point of view.  At this point it’s pretty obvious (as in hammer over the head) that he’s not a one note villain.  There are legitimate reasons why he is the way he is in TFA, and it’s not because he enjoys being bad.  He views Luke in a very negative light. I do believe Luke made some grievous error in judgement.  There’s a reason why his confidence is gone.  

I also agree with @frolickingfizzgig that if Luke is too dark, he potentially has the chance of overshadowing Kylo’s arc.  I’m sure no one here wants that.  At the same time, I still think we’ll be getting something much more interesting than Luke is scared/mad at himself so he hid himself away.  Who knows, he might not just be afraid of Kylo and Rey - he might be afraid of himself as well.  Why, I don’t know, but it sure has me looking forward to December!
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 10:46 pm

@IoJovi wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:@SoloSideCousin

FWIW, I didn't see that article debunking anything other than Luke having fallen to the dark side.

Maybe I'm just too optimistic, but after all of the hints we've gotten (the posters! that trailer!), I honestly believe that there's something more going on with Luke other than him being a disillusioned middle-aged man.

If there's a twist where Luke is the main antagonist on Ahch-To, Mark can't give that away in an interview. (And as others have pointed out here with some really good examples, a character can still be an antagonist with being a villain.)  If Luke really believes that Rey (and possibly himself) are too dangerous to return to the rest of the galaxy, that could open up all sorts of nuanced tension. Or maybe the Knights of Rant are onto something with their harbinger of doom theory, which could be super interesting.
@ISeeAnIsland

Same.  Even after this article, I STILL think something is not right with Luke.  Keep in mind that as one half of the protagonist, we’ll be getting Kylo’s point of view.  At this point it’s pretty obvious (as in hammer over the head) that he’s not a one note villain.  There are legitimate reasons why he is the way he is in TFA, and it’s not because he enjoys being bad.  He views Luke in a very negative light. I do believe Luke made some grievous error in judgement.  There’s a reason why his confidence is gone.  

I also agree with @frolickingfizzgig that if Luke is too dark, he potentially has the chance of overshadowing Kylo’s arc.  I’m sure no one here wants that.  At the same time, I still think we’ll be getting something much more interesting than Luke is scared/mad at himself so he hid himself away.  Who knows, he might not just be afraid of Kylo and Rey - he might be afraid of himself as well.  Why, I don’t know, but it sure has me looking forward to December!
@IoJovi

Right. If one of the two sources connected with Knights of Rant is correct, and "people are really going to freak out over Luke", that sounds like something more going on than Luke simply being disillusioned. And what about the rumored fight between Rey and Luke (per MSW) where she's Force-throwing objects at him?

Rey gets angry when she feels threatened. I don't see her getting into such a fight over Luke simply refusing to train her or return with her to the Resistance. Something else is going on.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 10:54 pm

@reylo1992 wrote:
@DeeBee wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@reylo1992 wrote:
@Saracene wrote:@SoloSideCousin It doesn't have to go from one extreme to another though. Luke not getting blame for Ben's turning doesn't have to mean that Ben will turn out to be a horrible selfish punk b**** who betrayed his saintly uncle and parents (a prediction which BTW I believe I never made).
@Saracene

I don't think that Luke will take all the blame but if we follow what Mark said to EW, he seems haunted by a pretty strong guilt feeling.

"[Luke] made a huge mistake in thinking that his nephew was the chosen one, so he invested everything he had in Kylo, much like Obi-Wan did with my character. And he is betrayed, with tragic consequences. Luke feels responsible for that. That’s the primary obstacle he has to rejoining the world and his place in the Jedi hierarchy, you know? It’s that guilt, that feeling that it’s his fault, that he didn’t detect the darkness in him until it was too late

Luke is not a coward but he maybe thinks that he is not worth any more to be in front of this fight against Snoke and the FO. But sooner or later like all other characters he'll have to let go of the past to move on and thus face his biggest challenge to come back.
@reylo1992
See, I don't think it's that he believes he isn't worthy. He's been trying to find a solution in his own way in the books in the Jedi tree library. I'm going a step further now, Rey and Kylo are part of a very bad prophesy, not a good one. Their prophesy won't surround bringing "balance" to the Force--at last not in writing. It'll be something scary.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Whooo this is really interesting!!!
When we look at the first prophecy of the chosen one - (Anakin)... that was seen as a positive prophecy by the Jedi. That would be great for them! Well, it certainly didn't turn out that way.... it was pretty negative for them -pretty much annihilation!

whereas if there is a prophecy about Rey and Kylo/Ben - maybe Luke is viewing it as a negative prophecy when it is actually positive?
Maybe what is positive for the force/balance etc. is not positive for Jedi... Luke may be grappling with this..
[This is a lot of maybes Smile ]

I'm not a fan of Rey and Ben being bad news.. and I hope we get a happy ending Smile

I figure the force will do what the force will do, with all the Jedi efforts with Anakin, it all fell apart.. for all their talk of not wielding the force for their own ends (as that is the sith way) the jedi IMHO interpreted the chosen one prophecy as being what they wanted it to be.. not what it actually was. Maybe if they had been guided by values rather than prohecy they would not have gotten into that mess.
while the PT don't hold a special place in my heart like the OT do.... I love the depth they give to the history!

@FrolickingFizzgig
@DeeBee

Very interesting theory! Thumbs up Kylo and Rey as part of a prophecy bringing chaos to the entire galaxy could make a shocking intertwined fate. When I heard about the raw power my mind went to nuclear weapon, weapon of mass destruction. Something that could be misused by weirdos like Snoke e to rule over the galaxy and could bring chaos at any moment
@reylo1992
I'm a huge Naruto fan so when Snoke and Luke compared Rey and Kylo's clearly dangerous and ancient power in the trailer my thoughts immediately went to the tailed-beasts, essentially the Naruto universe's version of ancient weapons of mass destruction. They were taken advantage of for war after people realized the only way they could be semi-controlled was by sealing them inside human host bodies, almost always kids. The main character is one of these hosts and a huge amount of his personal turmoil surrounds his inability to control the creature's massive, uncontrollable power that constantly threatens to tear him apart. He was isolated growing up because people were afraid he would lose control at any second. He understandably viewed the power as a curse until eventually coming to accept it as part of himself (and later learning that the creature was as much a victim as him, always used and never respected).

Throughout the story the main character also forges several key relationships with other hosts, including a kid his age who terrorized his hometown for years in his inability to control his own tailed-beast. The demon was sealed inside him when he was still in his mother's womb and she died in childbirth. He was treated much like Naruto growing up, like a ticking time bomb, but was also groomed as a trump card or weapon of war to protect against invaders. He starts out as a totally crazy child villain who becomes a tragic villain and then later an anti-hero (and remains one of Naruto's biggest foils for a long time).

I don't think the "raw power" is going to be quite as literal a thing as the tailed-beasts, but the comparison is still really appropriate in my eyes. I hope we get something like this because I find it very engaging. Smile
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by BigDeal2187 on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 11:00 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:Why is Kylo hell bent on finding Luke again? Is it explicitly stated in the novel? I can't remember. To kill him and rid the galaxy of the Jedi, and also who Snoke considers their biggest threat? I definitely think Luke had something to do with Ben's fall. He's definitely being shown as Kylo's antagonist, but do they really want each other dead? Kylo kills his own father so I guess it's safe to assume he'd want his uncle who messed things up for him dead too.
@Cowgirlsamurai
Actually, we don't know. Obviously it was one of Kylo's personal interests in TFA. While Kylo wanted to find Luke himself, Snoke actually just wanted the map destroyed. Nothing about TFA implies that Snoke gives any f***s whatsoever about about Luke or what happens to him as long as he doesn't reunite with the Resistance or bring about the rise of the "new Jedi". The assumption would be that Kylo wants the Jedi gone and therefore wants to kill Luke, but who knows? They haven't seen each other since the night of the temple incident. Luke just vanished. He hasn't been around to see what became of Kylo or Han (though I'm positive he knows full-well). Sad
@FrolickingFizzgig

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 11:03 pm

@BigDeal2187 wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:Why is Kylo hell bent on finding Luke again? Is it explicitly stated in the novel? I can't remember. To kill him and rid the galaxy of the Jedi, and also who Snoke considers their biggest threat? I definitely think Luke had something to do with Ben's fall. He's definitely being shown as Kylo's antagonist, but do they really want each other dead? Kylo kills his own father so I guess it's safe to assume he'd want his uncle who messed things up for him dead too.
@Cowgirlsamurai
Actually, we don't know. Obviously it was one of Kylo's personal interests in TFA. While Kylo wanted to find Luke himself, Snoke actually just wanted the map destroyed. Nothing about TFA implies that Snoke gives any f***s whatsoever about about Luke or what happens to him as long as he doesn't reunite with the Resistance or bring about the rise of the "new Jedi". The assumption would be that Kylo wants the Jedi gone and therefore wants to kill Luke, but who knows? They haven't seen each other since the night of the temple incident. Luke just vanished. He hasn't been around to see what became of Kylo or Han (though I'm positive he knows full-well). Sad
@FrolickingFizzgig

@BigDeal2187
I know that's the crawl but in all fairness it doesn't specifically refer to Kylo and it also doesn't line up very well with what Snoke said (that he doesn't care if the droid was destroyed or not), but I guess we'll see. I would almost consider that a contradictory error, haha.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Acritiqua on Sun 05 Nov 2017, 11:58 pm

I thought Snoke cared, it's just Luke isn't a current problem as long as he's vanished and not participating in the conflict. Maybe Snoke sees him as a broken man like many Luke fans fear he is. Snoke simply has his priorities:

1. The map absolutely cannot get to the Resistance because they'll find Luke and get him involved again and he'll train more Jedi.
2. If the FO can get the map without risking the Resistance getting it, then SKB will have a target and bye bye Luke.

So in a way they won't rest until Luke is destroyed.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Darth Dingbat on Mon 06 Nov 2017, 1:17 am

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:@SoloSideCousin

FWIW, I didn't see that article debunking anything other than Luke having fallen to the dark side.

Maybe I'm just too optimistic, but after all of the hints we've gotten (the posters! that trailer!), I honestly believe that there's something more going on with Luke other than him being a disillusioned middle-aged man.

If there's a twist where Luke is the main antagonist on Ahch-To, Mark can't give that away in an interview. (And as others have pointed out here with some really good examples, a character can still be an antagonist with being a villain.) If Luke really believes that Rey (and possibly himself) are too dangerous to return to the rest of the galaxy, that could open up all sorts of nuanced tension. Or maybe the Knights of Rant are onto something with their harbinger of doom theory, which could be super interesting.
@ISeeAnIsland

It also wouldn't make Luke "wrong", interestingly enough. If Rey, and Kylo, and/or Rey and Kylo together are legitimately dangerous to the galaxy, trying to prevent that would be "right" but still make him Rey's antagonist.

It's kind of like trying to prevent a prophecy in myths and tragedies - usually one just ends up making it happen.

Also, I always thought that the easiest way to account for Kylo's resentment/disappointment with his family and his sense of betrayal was that he took the blame for something that wasn't true. That six years previously things didn't go down quite the way everybody thinks they went down. But Luke blamed him, and Han (and Leia?) believed Luke's take because there was "too much Vader" in Kylo. And Snoke managed to convince him there was no one else to turn to.

That wouldn't make Luke evil either, but it would make him wrong - and too quick to judge without knowing the full story, just like the audience.

Now, I have no idea if they're going with anything like this, but I always thought Kylo's disappointment with Han et al. was overblown if it was just that he was a bit absent when Ben was a child. Then again, as you know I've always got the vibe from TFA, also, that Kylo has some kind of a genuine purpose and he's basically on a self-sacrificial mission. I find it hard to reconcile Kylo-the-victim with Kylo-with-a-good-purpose - I always have. Which is why I wonder if there's any way for both of these vibes to play into the story. Something is probably going to be dropped, IMO - my bet is that they're going with some simple but effective twist that will turn things around and generate immediate sympathy for Kylo by virtue of a "jaw-dropping surprise" that shows a side of him and his story that the audience wouldn't have thought.

I'm not expecting too many nuances from a story that needs to cram so much stuff into two remaining films. And because of this, unlike many others I'm also not expecting a slow-burn redemption arc with Kylo continuing to waver between light and dark. The thing is, I can't see Rey potentially allying herself with Kylo the waverer. If she suddenly trusts him, it will be because she has learnt something jaw-droppingly surprising about him, something that has turned things upside down for her, and therefore for the audience as well.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Darth_Awakened on Mon 06 Nov 2017, 1:31 am

@vaderito wrote:Dark!Luke would steal the movie from everyone. Make Luke evil and nobody would talk about anything else. So it had to be half-way solution - not the Super Luke that some fans expect but a flawed man yet not irreversibly flawed (as in committing something really bad). You'll find plenty of fans who'll find that radical.
@vaderito

Just one word: This.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by SoloSideCousin on Mon 06 Nov 2017, 1:47 am

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:@SoloSideCousin

FWIW, I didn't see that article debunking anything other than Luke having fallen to the dark side.

Maybe I'm just too optimistic, but after all of the hints we've gotten (the posters! that trailer!), I honestly believe that there's something more going on with Luke other than him being a disillusioned middle-aged man.

If there's a twist where Luke is the main antagonist on Ahch-To, Mark can't give that away in an interview. (And as others have pointed out here with some really good examples, a character can still be an antagonist with being a villain.)  If Luke really believes that Rey (and possibly himself) are too dangerous to return to the rest of the galaxy, that could open up all sorts of nuanced tension. Or maybe the Knights of Rant are onto something with their harbinger of doom theory, which could be super interesting.
@ISeeAnIsland

Same.  Even after this article, I STILL think something is not right with Luke.  Keep in mind that as one half of the protagonist, we’ll be getting Kylo’s point of view.  At this point it’s pretty obvious (as in hammer over the head) that he’s not a one note villain.  There are legitimate reasons why he is the way he is in TFA, and it’s not because he enjoys being bad.  He views Luke in a very negative light. I do believe Luke made some grievous error in judgement.  There’s a reason why his confidence is gone.  

I also agree with @frolickingfizzgig that if Luke is too dark, he potentially has the chance of overshadowing Kylo’s arc.  I’m sure no one here wants that.  At the same time, I still think we’ll be getting something much more interesting than Luke is scared/mad at himself so he hid himself away.  Who knows, he might not just be afraid of Kylo and Rey - he might be afraid of himself as well.  Why, I don’t know, but it sure has me looking forward to December!
@IoJovi

Right.  If one of the two sources connected with Knights of Rant is correct, and "people are really going to freak out over Luke", that sounds like something more going on than Luke simply being disillusioned. And what about the rumored fight between Rey and Luke (per MSW) where she's Force-throwing objects at him?  

Rey gets angry when she feels threatened. I don't see her getting into such a fight over Luke simply refusing to train her or return with her to the Resistance. Something else is going on.
@ISeeAnIsland

Right. Right. You're both right.  My blood sugar was low and I was really frustrated because none of the Dark!Luke advocates on the board had ever really argued for a straight up "Luke falls to the darkside" scenario (unless it was in the context of him being corrupted by some Sith object, in which case he wouldn't be responsible), yet that seemed to be the prevailing perception.

What I didn't like about the article was that by saying Luke "had no confidence in his decision-making."  That would eliminate "in the present Zealous Wrongheaded Force Theory Luke" and "in the present Puritanical/Uber-Lightsider Luke" because that kind of zealotry would require decision-making confidence.  That kind of description, on its face, of not being able to make decisions, also looks like DSMV depression, which I still don't think is an interesting way to go, because how else would Luke be after everything fell apart like that? It would actually be a surprise for him *not* to be depressed, and yet LF was acting like Luke's change would be a big "surprise".  If that "massive" change is just post-Temple-depression, then honestly, what are they making such a big deal about?  And then I thought, "If Luke going into a depression is considered a huge deal, then this is going to be crazy safe."  Hence the aggravation at the possibly huge loss of potential for the material.

However, after reading it again tonight, I agree it does not eliminate the "Harbinger of Doom/Prophecy Luke" (which is an awesome theory), "ParanoidLuke", "MentallyUnstableLuke" because that would require decision-making confusion as well.  It wouldn't even eliminate a Jekyll/Hyde Luke because it would make sense for the Jekyll side to be befuddled.

Also, it does not eliminate, and actually helps an "in the *past* Puritanical/Uber-Lightside Luke", whose arrogance came crashing down on him in the worst way, rather like the PT Jedi, who never seemed to learn the lessons of Anakin, but instead passed on the old rules to Luke.
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