What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by snufkin on Thu 5 May - 5:49

I'm sure if we really wanted to stick it to the "you're just a bunch of dumb girls who like Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey," crowd Pinterest would be the way to go. Or at least a separate section for the running tally of theories for each of the 4 central puzzles.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 5 May - 5:58

@snufkin wrote:I'm sure if we really wanted to stick it to the "you're just a bunch of dumb girls who like Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey," crowd Pinterest would be the way to go. Or at least a separate section for the running tally of theories for each of the 4 central puzzles.
@snufkin

LOL! Ah man, Pinterest! Pinterest is like a hypnotizing time suck thing ... at least for me. Laughing (I just keep clicking and clicking like an idiot ... they've engineered it that way I tell you! And I was just looking for kids birthday cake designs! Forget about Kylo pictures! Laughing )

I think the separate section on the board for a running tally of theories might be cool though. We'd have to think of various topics and keep refining the theories ... and then when somebody "crosses the streams" and joins theories for a broader theory that becomes its own theory? :-)
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by snufkin on Thu 5 May - 6:03

Obviously I have an entire Pinterest board devoted to Feminism. The whole "Twilight" type condescending (and likely male) comments do really piss me off. Like the time I had somebody in high school act amazed that I had read everything by H.P. Lovecraft because I was a girl. Don't mansplain to me that I don't know what I saw in a movie!

I would guess at some point in development, there were probably white boards used to track all of these different stories, so a separate section with a tally of theories would be fun. Especially for the next round to see how close people were to figuring things out (and the theories I've seen here sound way more plausible than anything I've seen).
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 5 May - 7:13

@snufkin wrote:Obviously I have an entire Pinterest board devoted to Feminism. The whole "Twilight" type condescending (and likely male) comments do really piss me off. Like the time I had somebody in high school act amazed that I had read everything by H.P. Lovecraft because I was a girl. Don't mansplain to me that I don't know what I saw in a movie!

I would guess at some point in development, there were probably white boards used to track all of these different stories, so a separate section with a tally of theories would be fun. Especially for the next round to see how close people were to figuring things out (and the theories I've seen here sound way more plausible than anything I've seen).
@snufkin

Oh goodness! I hope I didn't offend you about Pinterest! I would actually be interested in seeing your feminism pages. I actually have pages too. I have collections on kids education and design and house renovations and kids cakes and a couple of other things ... but I really do get hypnotized by it. I find I just keep clicking sith, and then I have a million pins I never read. I have the same issue with all the metas people suggest. I open up a tab for each one, and now I have like 800 tabs in one window and my laptop crashes frequently and I am very grateful for my session manager. LOL. (I told you I had an organization issue).

I am sure that they whiteboarded everything at some point. I actually really love doing that myself. I love writing things down and connecting them with arrow. I freaking love my stylis on my phone like a woman possessed. :-) It would be awesome if we could follow that general idea of following the topics and showing iterations.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by panki on Thu 5 May - 9:34

I can't imagine Ben being a victim of 'bullying' especially not as a 23 year old....but I don't see Luke's students/acolytes as a blameless bunch of innocents who got killed by Ben either (that would be a return to the Anakin in ROTS killing younglings)

In Bloodline, we just need to see the reactions of people around Leia when they found out she was Vader's daughter to know how Ben's fellow students reacted as well. There was a sense of anger and betrayal from some....Leia managed to escape being torn apart by a mob on her way back to her office when the news came out...staff members she treated like children were upset with her and one angrily walked out on her.....friends turned their backs on her.....and this is after she sacrificed so much to re-build the republic.

Spoiler:
"Leia made it to her office without being torn apart by a mob. Under the circumstances, that had to count as a win."

Once she’d walked into her own offices, she’d felt—not safe, because at the moment she doubted she’d ever feel entirely safe again—but as if she would at least be surrounded by friends instead of enemies. Instead, she had to watch even more people she cared about turning their backs on her.

But now Leia had no one else to talk to. Her message to Ben would be about comforting him, not finding any consolation of her own. She couldn’t even bring herself to record a message for Han. He would still be in the heart of the sublight relay round of the Five Sabers, meaning he was cut off from any possible contact. Han might wind up being the last person in the galaxy to know her secret had been exposed; nor was there any chance he would learn about it from her. And at the moment, she couldn’t even bear to speak about it any longer. But she knew that he, too, would suffer blowback from being married to a child of Vader.

I'm still convinced some of Ben's fellow students reacted angrily and he (and maybe some of his friends) would have reacted as well, especially if he was already devastated on discovering his grandfather's identity.....I also feel it was the other students who burned down the temple as they felt Luke's teachings were dangerous and must be destroyed (mob mentality).

Spoiler:
“On behalf of my fellow senators, I first wish to say that I appreciate Princess Leia’s honesty…however late it was in coming. Yet something in her speech today has given rise to other, potentially more dangerous concerns. Princess Leia spoke of her brother, the famous Luke Skywalker, who has been little seen in the public sphere for many years now. Perhaps Her Highness learned virtues from her father’s example, but can we say the same for her brother? If he uses his rumored strength in the Force for evil, how could we ever defend against him?"

Ben would have escaped. Some of the students possibly died in the fire. We don't know if any of Luke's students survived. And if they did, it is unlikely they are going to take the blame for what occurred....possibly blaming Ben for everything and calling him a Jedi killer, like his grandfather. He probably wears his singed cowl and keeps the ashes to remind himself not to trust anybody- that he doesn't need friends or family.

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Thu 5 May - 9:52

@panki wrote:I can't imagine Ben being a victim of 'bullying' especially not as a 23 year old....but I don't see Luke's students/acolytes as a blameless bunch of innocents who got killed by Ben either (that would be a return to the Anakin in ROTS killing younglings)

In Bloodline, we just need to see the reactions of people around Leia when they found out she was Vader's daughter to know how Ben's fellow students reacted as well. There was a sense of anger and betrayal from some....Leia managed to escape being torn apart by a mob on her way back to her office when the news came out...staff members she treated like children were upset with her and one angrily walked out on her.....friends turned their backs on her.....and this is after she sacrificed so much to re-build the republic.

Spoiler:
"Leia made it to her office without being torn apart by a mob. Under the circumstances, that had to count as a win."

Once she’d walked into her own offices, she’d felt—not safe, because at the moment she doubted she’d ever feel entirely safe again—but as if she would at least be surrounded by friends instead of enemies. Instead, she had to watch even more people she cared about turning their backs on her.

But now Leia had no one else to talk to. Her message to Ben would be about comforting him, not finding any consolation of her own. She couldn’t even bring herself to record a message for Han. He would still be in the heart of the sublight relay round of the Five Sabers, meaning he was cut off from any possible contact. Han might wind up being the last person in the galaxy to know her secret had been exposed; nor was there any chance he would learn about it from her. And at the moment, she couldn’t even bear to speak about it any longer. But she knew that he, too, would suffer blowback from being married to a child of Vader.

I'm still convinced some of Ben's fellow students reacted angrily and he (and maybe some of his friends) would have reacted as well, especially if he was already devastated on discovering his grandfather's identity.....I also feel it was the other students who burned down the temple as they felt Luke's teachings were dangerous and must be destroyed (mob mentality).

Spoiler:
“On behalf of my fellow senators, I first wish to say that I appreciate Princess Leia’s honesty…however late it was in coming. Yet something in her speech today has given rise to other, potentially more dangerous concerns. Princess Leia spoke of her brother, the famous Luke Skywalker, who has been little seen in the public sphere for many years now. Perhaps Her Highness learned virtues from her father’s example, but can we say the same for her brother? If he uses his rumored strength in the Force for evil, how could we ever defend against him?"

Ben would have escaped. Some of the students possibly died in the fire. We don't know if any of Luke's students survived. And if they did, it is unlikely they are going to take the blame for what occurred....possibly blaming Ben for everything and calling him a Jedi killer, like his grandfather. He probably wears his singed cowl and keeps the ashes to remind himself not to trust anybody- that he doesn't need friends or family.
@panki
Guys, the ashes are NOT the ashes in the tub. If they were Pablo would have known and JJ never, ever would have talked about them because they would be relevant in Episode VIII/IX. Pablo was never even told what they were supposed to be, and the information never made it into the Visual Dictionary, while even stuff about Kylo's chair did. The ashes are not the ashes of the temple victims. They're just ashes from an unused shot/backstory that never made it in the movie and will never me mentioned again.

IMO the event that led to Kylo's ultimate fall was a mixture of familial and political. Something here made him hate the New Republic. Something here made him feel like his family (particularly Han) disappointed him.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 5 May - 9:53

@panki wrote:I can't imagine Ben being a victim of 'bullying' especially not as a 23 year old....but I don't see Luke's students/acolytes as a blameless bunch of innocents who got killed by Ben either (that would be a return to the Anakin in ROTS killing younglings)

In Bloodline, we just need to see the reactions of people around Leia when they found out she was Vader's daughter to know how Ben's fellow students reacted as well. There was a sense of anger and betrayal from some....Leia managed to escape being torn apart by a mob on her way back to her office when the news came out...staff members she treated like children were upset with her and one angrily walked out on her.....friends turned their backs on her.....and this is after she sacrificed so much to re-build the republic.

Spoiler:
"Leia made it to her office without being torn apart by a mob. Under the circumstances, that had to count as a win."

Once she’d walked into her own offices, she’d felt—not safe, because at the moment she doubted she’d ever feel entirely safe again—but as if she would at least be surrounded by friends instead of enemies. Instead, she had to watch even more people she cared about turning their backs on her.

But now Leia had no one else to talk to. Her message to Ben would be about comforting him, not finding any consolation of her own. She couldn’t even bring herself to record a message for Han. He would still be in the heart of the sublight relay round of the Five Sabers, meaning he was cut off from any possible contact. Han might wind up being the last person in the galaxy to know her secret had been exposed; nor was there any chance he would learn about it from her. And at the moment, she couldn’t even bear to speak about it any longer. But she knew that he, too, would suffer blowback from being married to a child of Vader.

I'm still convinced some of Ben's fellow students reacted angrily and he (and maybe some of his friends) would have reacted as well, especially if he was already devastated on discovering his grandfather's identity.....I also feel it was the other students who burned down the temple as they felt Luke's teachings were dangerous and must be destroyed (mob mentality).

Spoiler:
“On behalf of my fellow senators, I first wish to say that I appreciate Princess Leia’s honesty…however late it was in coming. Yet something in her speech today has given rise to other, potentially more dangerous concerns. Princess Leia spoke of her brother, the famous Luke Skywalker, who has been little seen in the public sphere for many years now. Perhaps Her Highness learned virtues from her father’s example, but can we say the same for her brother? If he uses his rumored strength in the Force for evil, how could we ever defend against him?"

Ben would have escaped. Some of the students possibly died in the fire. We don't know if any of Luke's students survived. And if they did, it is unlikely they are going to take the blame for what occurred....possibly blaming Ben for everything and calling him a Jedi killer, like his grandfather. He probably wears his singed cowl and keeps the ashes to remind himself not to trust anybody- that he doesn't need friends or family.
@panki

I never thought about the students burning the temple.  I could see something like that actually, since they would deem him a false teacher ... a heretic so to speak.

Ben could have set fire to it possibly too? AD said that he was like a religious zealot.  Maybe in his sorrow he wanted to see all the lies burn ... maybe the religion of Luke made no sense ... but then maybe people got killed in the fire?

But the singed cowl does indicate some holding onto a memory of being screwed over.  Maybe the students set the fire when Ben was inside, and by the time he got out he lost it and killed a bunch of them for trying to burn him up.  And then he threw them on the pyre and saved the ashes.  I think that @FrolickingFizzgig is right that the ashes are probably over with, but the singed cowl ... I think JJ said that he had to have the cowl ... I think something it there.  The singed cowl could literally be like an open wound that he displays.  Also remember the Resistance symbol was on that.  Could his view of the Resistance be all mixed up with what those guys tried to do to him?

Hmmmm ... very interesting possibilities.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 5 May - 10:02

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@panki wrote:I can't imagine Ben being a victim of 'bullying' especially not as a 23 year old....but I don't see Luke's students/acolytes as a blameless bunch of innocents who got killed by Ben either (that would be a return to the Anakin in ROTS killing younglings)

In Bloodline, we just need to see the reactions of people around Leia when they found out she was Vader's daughter to know how Ben's fellow students reacted as well. There was a sense of anger and betrayal from some....Leia managed to escape being torn apart by a mob on her way back to her office when the news came out...staff members she treated like children were upset with her and one angrily walked out on her.....friends turned their backs on her.....and this is after she sacrificed so much to re-build the republic.

Spoiler:
"Leia made it to her office without being torn apart by a mob. Under the circumstances, that had to count as a win."

Once she’d walked into her own offices, she’d felt—not safe, because at the moment she doubted she’d ever feel entirely safe again—but as if she would at least be surrounded by friends instead of enemies. Instead, she had to watch even more people she cared about turning their backs on her.

But now Leia had no one else to talk to. Her message to Ben would be about comforting him, not finding any consolation of her own. She couldn’t even bring herself to record a message for Han. He would still be in the heart of the sublight relay round of the Five Sabers, meaning he was cut off from any possible contact. Han might wind up being the last person in the galaxy to know her secret had been exposed; nor was there any chance he would learn about it from her. And at the moment, she couldn’t even bear to speak about it any longer. But she knew that he, too, would suffer blowback from being married to a child of Vader.

I'm still convinced some of Ben's fellow students reacted angrily and he (and maybe some of his friends) would have reacted as well, especially if he was already devastated on discovering his grandfather's identity.....I also feel it was the other students who burned down the temple as they felt Luke's teachings were dangerous and must be destroyed (mob mentality).

Spoiler:
“On behalf of my fellow senators, I first wish to say that I appreciate Princess Leia’s honesty…however late it was in coming. Yet something in her speech today has given rise to other, potentially more dangerous concerns. Princess Leia spoke of her brother, the famous Luke Skywalker, who has been little seen in the public sphere for many years now. Perhaps Her Highness learned virtues from her father’s example, but can we say the same for her brother? If he uses his rumored strength in the Force for evil, how could we ever defend against him?"

Ben would have escaped. Some of the students possibly died in the fire. We don't know if any of Luke's students survived. And if they did, it is unlikely they are going to take the blame for what occurred....possibly blaming Ben for everything and calling him a Jedi killer, like his grandfather. He probably wears his singed cowl and keeps the ashes to remind himself not to trust anybody- that he doesn't need friends or family.
@panki
Guys, the ashes are NOT the ashes in the tub. If they were Pablo would have known and JJ never, ever would have talked about them because they would be relevant in Episode VIII/IX. Pablo was never even told what they were supposed to be, and the information never made it into the Visual Dictionary, while even stuff about Kylo's chair did. The ashes are not the ashes of the temple victims. They're just ashes from an unused shot/backstory that never made it in the movie and will never me mentioned again.

IMO the event that led to Kylo's ultimate fall was a mixture of familial and political. Something here made him hate the New Republic. Something here made him feel like his family (particularly Han) disappointed him.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I agree about the ashes, but have you read Bloodline yet? Don't read the spoiler if you don't want to be spoiled about some of this.
Spoiler:
The mother basically turns on the New Republic at the end. The whole book is a process of Leia going rogue IMO. I think Ben might kind of be the opposite. A lot of what Han and Leia do is extra-legal at best. Their are both like danger junkies. That might have produced a lot of chaos for Ben. When he feels they betrayed him, he may go the other way towards order. I am sure he hates the New Republic because it's chaotic, but I also think he could have a serious aversion to chaos from his mother and father. In other words, I think that the root of his need for order is less to do with the actual bad government and more personal ... the parents were chaotic and they lied to him his whole life, so everything about them is a lie and in a reactionary way plus Snoke whispering in his ear he thinks stopping chaos in the correct way. I really feel that the Ransolm who is a good guy but pro-centralized government may be a decent analogue to where Kylo might be without Snoke, the betrayal and the dark side influencing him.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by panki on Thu 5 May - 10:08

@SoloSideCousin @FrolickingFizzgig

I agree about the ashes....I threw them in because of all the recent discussion regarding them...but they're not important in the larger scheme of things....the cowl is a lot more significant.

As for the burning temple....it could even have been burnt down by Ben in anger but if he did the burning, his clothes are less likely to be singed (unless he regretted his actions later and went back in to save people)....I still think there was some confrontation and an angry mob involved in the jedi temple incident (based on how people reacted to Leia).....the possibilities are endless.

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Thu 5 May - 10:26

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@panki wrote:I can't imagine Ben being a victim of 'bullying' especially not as a 23 year old....but I don't see Luke's students/acolytes as a blameless bunch of innocents who got killed by Ben either (that would be a return to the Anakin in ROTS killing younglings)

In Bloodline, we just need to see the reactions of people around Leia when they found out she was Vader's daughter to know how Ben's fellow students reacted as well. There was a sense of anger and betrayal from some....Leia managed to escape being torn apart by a mob on her way back to her office when the news came out...staff members she treated like children were upset with her and one angrily walked out on her.....friends turned their backs on her.....and this is after she sacrificed so much to re-build the republic.

Spoiler:
"Leia made it to her office without being torn apart by a mob. Under the circumstances, that had to count as a win."

Once she’d walked into her own offices, she’d felt—not safe, because at the moment she doubted she’d ever feel entirely safe again—but as if she would at least be surrounded by friends instead of enemies. Instead, she had to watch even more people she cared about turning their backs on her.

But now Leia had no one else to talk to. Her message to Ben would be about comforting him, not finding any consolation of her own. She couldn’t even bring herself to record a message for Han. He would still be in the heart of the sublight relay round of the Five Sabers, meaning he was cut off from any possible contact. Han might wind up being the last person in the galaxy to know her secret had been exposed; nor was there any chance he would learn about it from her. And at the moment, she couldn’t even bear to speak about it any longer. But she knew that he, too, would suffer blowback from being married to a child of Vader.

I'm still convinced some of Ben's fellow students reacted angrily and he (and maybe some of his friends) would have reacted as well, especially if he was already devastated on discovering his grandfather's identity.....I also feel it was the other students who burned down the temple as they felt Luke's teachings were dangerous and must be destroyed (mob mentality).

Spoiler:
“On behalf of my fellow senators, I first wish to say that I appreciate Princess Leia’s honesty…however late it was in coming. Yet something in her speech today has given rise to other, potentially more dangerous concerns. Princess Leia spoke of her brother, the famous Luke Skywalker, who has been little seen in the public sphere for many years now. Perhaps Her Highness learned virtues from her father’s example, but can we say the same for her brother? If he uses his rumored strength in the Force for evil, how could we ever defend against him?"

Ben would have escaped. Some of the students possibly died in the fire. We don't know if any of Luke's students survived. And if they did, it is unlikely they are going to take the blame for what occurred....possibly blaming Ben for everything and calling him a Jedi killer, like his grandfather. He probably wears his singed cowl and keeps the ashes to remind himself not to trust anybody- that he doesn't need friends or family.
@panki
Guys, the ashes are NOT the ashes in the tub. If they were Pablo would have known and JJ never, ever would have talked about them because they would be relevant in Episode VIII/IX. Pablo was never even told what they were supposed to be, and the information never made it into the Visual Dictionary, while even stuff about Kylo's chair did. The ashes are not the ashes of the temple victims. They're just ashes from an unused shot/backstory that never made it in the movie and will never me mentioned again.

IMO the event that led to Kylo's ultimate fall was a mixture of familial and political. Something here made him hate the New Republic. Something here made him feel like his family (particularly Han) disappointed him.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I agree about the ashes, but have you read Bloodline yet? Don't read the spoiler if you don't want to be spoiled about some of this.
Spoiler:
The mother basically turns on the New Republic at the end. The whole book is a process of Leia going rogue IMO. I think Ben might kind of be the opposite. A lot of what Han and Leia do is extra-legal at best. Their are both like danger junkies. That might have produced a lot of chaos for Ben. When he feels they betrayed him, he may go the other way towards order. I am sure he hates the New Republic because it's chaotic, but I also think he could have a serious aversion to chaos from his mother and father. In other words, I think that the root of his need for order is less to do with the actual bad government and more personal ... the parents were chaotic and they lied to him his whole life, so everything about them is a lie and in a reactionary way plus Snoke whispering in his ear he thinks stopping chaos in the correct way. I really feel that the Ransolm who is a good guy but pro-centralized government may be a decent analogue to where Kylo might be without Snoke, the betrayal and the dark side influencing him.
@SoloSideCousin
I still don't like the angry mob idea. It just feels wrong to throw a bunch of Luke's students under the bus when we have no idea who they were (and when Kylo was nicknamed Jedi Killer for what happened). We'll have to wait and see though. I still think I'm imagining it wrong.

I totally agree that the very unsettling political reveals in Bloodline are going to play a hand in how much Kylo despises the Republic. I still need to read the book for myself though. Maybe this weekend if I have time.

The major idea here for me was that Kylo's robe is very badly burned, which tells me he was in a fire at one point. And it was clear in the Force Back that the temple itself burned to the ground. I really think the whole notion that this might have been a fire and not Anakin walking through the halls of the temple with a lightsaber 2.0. is interesting. There was a precedence for that because of the Prequel Trilogy, but I highly doubt we're getting a complete rehash of the temple massacre from Revenge of the Sith. Something different happened here, something that still caused Kylo to be called the Jedi Killer. He was culpable here. I don't think he was entirely framed, but all of this may have been more indirectly his fault. I just don't want to get into the habit of whitewashing the character for the sake of making it easier to redeem him (because that takes the fun out of the whole redemption arc for me). I actually want Kylo to have done something horrible and selfish, something that made him feel like he could never come back, but something that wasn't necessarily evil.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by snufkin on Thu 5 May - 13:33

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@snufkin wrote:Obviously I have an entire Pinterest board devoted to Feminism. The whole "Twilight" type condescending (and likely male) comments do really piss me off. Like the time I had somebody in high school act amazed that I had read everything by H.P. Lovecraft because I was a girl. Don't mansplain to me that I don't know what I saw in a movie!

I would guess at some point in development, there were probably white boards used to track all of these different stories, so a separate section with a tally of theories would be fun. Especially for the next round to see how close people were to figuring things out (and the theories I've seen here sound way more plausible than anything I've seen).
@snufkin

Oh goodness! I hope I didn't offend you about Pinterest! I would actually be interested in seeing your feminism pages. I actually have pages too. I have collections on kids education and design and house renovations and kids cakes and a couple of other things ... but I really do get hypnotized by it. I find I just keep clicking sith, and then I have a million pins I never read. I have the same issue with all the metas people suggest. I open up a tab for each one, and now I have like 800 tabs in one window and my laptop crashes frequently and I am very grateful for my session manager. LOL. (I told you I had an organization issue).

I am sure that they whiteboarded everything at some point. I actually really love doing that myself. I love writing things down and connecting them with arrow. I freaking love my stylis on my phone like a woman possessed. :-) It would be awesome if we could follow that general idea of following the topics and showing iterations.
@SoloSideCousin

No worries, I did sign up for an account that's for miscellaneous bookmarks and that's one of the boards I put on there. I've yet to fall down the rabbithole so many others have spoken about in terms of it being a time suck.

And yes, I'm sure all of the arguments vollying back and forth here are discussions the writers and story groups had. Which is why it would be interesting to see what we think is the solution to the puzzle over time and how close or off base we were.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Jakku on Thu 5 May - 14:10

The whole Bloodline revelation of Leia being Vader's child focused on the effect on her. It's not ignored that there will be repercussions for Luke and Ben too, as being genetic descendants of the hated Vader, but very little is mentioned about it in the book.

It strikes me, though, that Luke's students might be just as hostile and angry about the revelation as the politicians were to Leia.  You're studying under this great Jedi, a beacon of the light, and then discover he's actually the progeny of the evil darkside baddie who wrecked your parents' lives.  How would you feel about that news?  Especially as he's kept it secret from you?  Wouldn't you wonder if you were being surreptitiously recruited by the dark side?

And would you believe that his nephew also didn't know?  

I'm thinking that very bad things happened when the news broke on campus.


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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Reynak on Thu 5 May - 14:12

@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:So @MyOnlyHope directed me to something from Pablo's Visual Dictionary today (something that was actually made clear in the movie but that I personally never noticed):





So the cowl Kylo wears is actually burned, not ripped. And we know from the same Dictionary that the robe was a remnant from his training days with Luke. This tiny bit of information honestly created a whole separate line of possibility for the temple "massacre" for me. Everybody always assumed "massacre" = Kylo killed them directly (or at the very least that we were expected to believe that) but upon re-watching the Force Back they made it pretty obvious that the temple actually burned down. Now, one could say that it burned down after the massacre, but then why is Kylo's robe singed? And so much? There's barely anything left of it (just the hood and part of the shoulder). So here's my thought: what if the fire was started and the temple burned down while the other Jedi (and potentially Kylo) were still inside, and Kylo abandoned them, saving himself and leaving them to die? This is potentially a really interesting answer for me because it would lay all the blame on Kylo, he could be called the "Jedi Killer", but the act itself wouldn't necessarily have been "evil" (at least not in a school-shooter type of way).

I don't know if it really means anything. The robe was presumably destroyed on Starkiller Base, but somehow the idea of it being so badly "singed" caught my attention.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Nice catch. Bloodlines has changed the way I think about how the "massacre" happened.
Spoiler:
Casterfo publicly announces she is Vader's daughter and Leia is outraged because Ben will find out in the most humiliating way possible since news will surely reach him before she can tell him herself
This leads me to lean more heavily toward the idea others on this forum had pitched about his fellow students turning against him and a fight breaking out. The information you noticed could easily fit in with this theory. AshGate would also make sense here; perhaps the ashes of those who turned against him are kept as a reminder of being too trusting. Also, his diatribe about murderers, traitors, and thieves. Just thinking aloud. Seems there's a trail of breadcrumbs leading to one thing and you've found one of the crumbs.
@MeadowofAshes


This is very interesting. I have read somewhere that the name "Jedi massacre" has been changed on the Wookieepedia and now it is called "destruction" instead of massacre. They did this recently and it links well with this idea of a temple burned down. Why have they decided to change the word "massacre"? Destruction sounds very different from massacre and ii is the word Han used when he told Rey what happened to the jedi. Han said a boy destroyed everything, he didn't say this boy killed anyone.

kylo probably didn't do what Anakin did to the padawans. Perhaps he started the fire or perhaps he didn't but he ran away and everybody thought he did. Perhaps he killed other students but we don't know why, maybe they turned against him when they discovered he was Vader's grandson and There was a terrible fight. I wonder if Luke was there when everything happened? Does he know what really happened there? 

What if the conversation that leads to the Hutslaying has anything to do with this? Perhaps Luke's and Kylo's version of what happend there are different and that episode is terribly important as it was the breakng point for Kylo. After years resisting Snoke he finally broke. What happened there is why.

Here's the link to the Wikia article:


http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Destruction_of_Luke_Skywalker's_Jedi

It used to be called massacre there and they have changed it.


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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Jakku on Thu 5 May - 14:24

Yes, the words 'destroyed it all' don't necessarily imply physical damage. They could be referring to actions that caused the students to detach themselves from Luke and his teaching.

We have Kylo being referred to as 'Jedi Killer', but that's a bit puzzling too. Has there been any hint that the followers of Luke had reached Jedi status? Which Jedi is Kylo supposed to have killed?
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Kessel on Thu 5 May - 14:44

The Star Wars website databank still says, "Once an apprentice of Luke Skywalker’s, [Kylo] killed his fellow students and drove Skywalker into exile..." That's the official story for now and that's likely the official in-universe story for now too... That doesn't mean that's all there is to it or that it's 100% accurate. It could very well be, but it's not a sure thing. Remember, "from a certain point of view?"

I'm not saying Kylo didn't kill anyone or that he's innocent, but it's highly probable there is more to the story than what we see on the surface from TFA. That's why I don't understand why some people act as if we have the whole story in TFA when it comes to Kylo and his motivations; we obviously do not. Kylo has such a grudge, I cannot buy that his motivation is that's he's just a spoiled brat who wants to be cool like his grandpa Vader. I can't see Rian Johnson writing something so one-dimensional and boring. Especially if episode VIII has been described as weird, dark, more nuanced...
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 5 May - 15:35

@Jakku wrote:The whole Bloodline revelation of Leia being Vader's child focused on the effect on her. It's not ignored that there will be repercussions for Luke and Ben too, as being genetic descendants of the hated Vader, but very little is mentioned about it in the book.

It strikes me, though, that Luke's students might be just as hostile and angry about the revelation as the politicians were to Leia.  You're studying under this great Jedi, a beacon of the light, and then discover he's actually the progeny of the evil darkside baddie who wrecked your parents' lives.  How would you feel about that news?  Especially as he's kept it secret from you?  Wouldn't you wonder if you were being surreptitiously recruited by the dark side?

And would you believe that his nephew also didn't know?  

I'm thinking that very bad things happened when the news broke on campus.
@Jakku

I agree. I think it would go down worse with Luke's students than it would with the Senate. The reason I say that relates to what you say above. Leia is not widely known to be force sensitive, and she has never been trained. Her colleagues lost their minds when (1) they think she has no force power, (2) they know she was raised by Bail, (3) she has a impeccable history of being anti-Empire and centralized government and (4) these people just worked with her!

OTOH, Luke's students have made a serious sacrifice, an arguably extreme religious decision to throw off all the little joys of life to follow this supposedly wise monk around. There is no "girls or boys night out" with this guy. There's no going to the SW version of the movies or going to a football game or eating steak and lobster with Luke, like there even would be with regular Sw version priest/nun/minster/rabbi religious figure. This is like going to those old medieval monasteries on the edge of a cliff. This is taking hard journeys like some Jedi fellowship of the ring. Maybe that's worth it when you're following the SW version of biblical prophet or St. Francis or Buddha around. But when your holy man suddenly turns into the son of the devil those sacrifices and the feeling of betrayal will be a hard pill to swallow ... especially for people who made such radical life choice.

It would screw with their whole view of life in a way that just wouldn't happen with the Senators. That's why I thinj the fall-out could be much worse.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by creepi0 on Thu 5 May - 15:43

isnt there pablo tweet saying that information from star wars databank actually not really accurate because they just draw conclusion of his production codename is jedi killer or something like that ? i quite remember reading it from this forum

from what i know from codename is sometime it never mean in literal sense. could be that Jedi Killer mean is he convince/converted luke jedi order member to join snoke and abandoned jedi teaching (Knight Of Ren maybe). Since in this scenario all luke jedi order member converted to be snoke student  and ben didnt kill any jedi maybe he become a murderer (just like pablo said and that the reason why han and leia break up ) when he embrace his vader lineage and start searching for anakin relic (vader skull and anakin lightsaber) and on it way killing bunch of people leaving a body count

then after he got the lightsaber maz tricked him in some way and stole it from him( according to old leak shooting script). The reason why i think the raining rey vision  scene is in the past because kylo mask seem dont have scratch and his outfit look more slick and new than his appearance in TFA which describe battle worn with a lot of scratch in his mask ( i think it JJ or Adam maybe who said it in interview i dont really remember)

anyway this is just speculation i could be wrong of course

EDIT i find the the post of pablo tweet about his opinion on star wars databank http://reylo.skyforum.net/t78-archive-sw-sequel-trilogy-tweets#6886


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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by BastilaBey on Thu 5 May - 15:52

The databank has to be 'from a certain point of view' as others have said, just like the visual dictionaries, because they are hardly going to give away something that has yet to be revealed as a twist. It's classic misdirection in my opinion, because they counted on the audience filling in the blanks and assuming that something had gone down that was very similar to Anakin with the younglings/order 66 generally. And that's not to say Ben was innocent, of course not, but veiled references from Han like 'destruction' hint that there's much more information coming.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Darth_Awakened on Thu 5 May - 15:59

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Jakku wrote:The whole Bloodline revelation of Leia being Vader's child focused on the effect on her. It's not ignored that there will be repercussions for Luke and Ben too, as being genetic descendants of the hated Vader, but very little is mentioned about it in the book.

It strikes me, though, that Luke's students might be just as hostile and angry about the revelation as the politicians were to Leia.  You're studying under this great Jedi, a beacon of the light, and then discover he's actually the progeny of the evil darkside baddie who wrecked your parents' lives.  How would you feel about that news?  Especially as he's kept it secret from you?  Wouldn't you wonder if you were being surreptitiously recruited by the dark side?

And would you believe that his nephew also didn't know?  

I'm thinking that very bad things happened when the news broke on campus.
@Jakku

I agree. I think it would go down worse with Luke's students than it would with the Senate. The reason I say that relates to what you say above. Leia is not widely known to be force sensitive, and she has never been trained. Her colleagues lost their minds when (1) they think she has no force power, (2) they know she was raised by Bail, (3) she has a impeccable history of being anti-Empire and centralized government and (4) these people just worked with her!

OTOH, Luke's students have made a serious sacrifice, an arguably extreme religious decision to throw off all the little joys of life to follow this supposedly wise monk around. There is no "girls or boys night out" with this guy. There's no going to the SW version of the movies or going to a football game or eating steak and lobster with Luke, like there even would be with regular Sw version priest/nun/minster/rabbi religious figure. This is like going to those old medieval monasteries on the edge of a cliff. This is taking hard journeys like some Jedi fellowship of the ring. Maybe that's worth it when you're following the SW version of biblical prophet or St. Francis or Buddha around. But when your holy man suddenly turns into the son of the devil those sacrifices and the feeling of betrayal will be a hard pill to swallow ... especially for people who made such radical life choice.

It would screw with their whole view of life in a way that just wouldn't happen with the Senators. That's why I thinj the fall-out could be much worse.
@SoloSideCousin

I think you have a point there, even before Bloodlines spoilers came out (unfortunately I have to wait another week to get my hands on it), I was quite suspicious from the beginning about Han s story about betrayal (though I do not think that Han has lied - not at all - he told a story to "kids" he had heard (I am pretty sure now, that nor Han, nor Leia know exactly what went wrong in the "temple" or community or whatever.)
On the other hand, keep Snoke in mind all the time. Still zero info on him.
And there is another question regarding Snoke and Luke: at moment when Snoke was revealed as the pure dark side something-not-a-Sith, and the leader of super-sinister FO (rose from the dark side per San Tekka) , why Luke as the "last of the Jedi" never confronted him.
At least I would expect of him to do so (evidence for this: Leia is more than eager to find his brother).

Too much mystery around Luke. As character he was never a coward, but it still looks like he ran away from everything.
I do not think it just happened the way TFA presented it. Something else was going on for sure, I am quite certain of it now.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by snufkin on Thu 5 May - 16:00

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Jakku wrote:The whole Bloodline revelation of Leia being Vader's child focused on the effect on her. It's not ignored that there will be repercussions for Luke and Ben too, as being genetic descendants of the hated Vader, but very little is mentioned about it in the book.

It strikes me, though, that Luke's students might be just as hostile and angry about the revelation as the politicians were to Leia.  You're studying under this great Jedi, a beacon of the light, and then discover he's actually the progeny of the evil darkside baddie who wrecked your parents' lives.  How would you feel about that news?  Especially as he's kept it secret from you?  Wouldn't you wonder if you were being surreptitiously recruited by the dark side?

And would you believe that his nephew also didn't know?  

I'm thinking that very bad things happened when the news broke on campus.
@Jakku

I agree. I think it would go down worse with Luke's students than it would with the Senate. The reason I say that relates to what you say above. Leia is not widely known to be force sensitive, and she has never been trained. Her colleagues lost their minds when (1) they think she has no force power, (2) they know she was raised by Bail, (3) she has a impeccable history of being anti-Empire and centralized government and (4) these people just worked with her!

OTOH, Luke's students have made a serious sacrifice, an arguably extreme religious decision to throw off all the little joys of life to follow this supposedly wise monk around. There is no "girls or boys night out" with this guy. There's no going to the SW version of the movies or going to a football game or eating steak and lobster with Luke, like there even would be with regular Sw version priest/nun/minster/rabbi religious figure. This is like going to those old medieval monasteries on the edge of a cliff. This is taking hard journeys like some Jedi fellowship of the ring. Maybe that's worth it when you're following the SW version of biblical prophet or St. Francis or Buddha around. But when your holy man suddenly turns into the son of the devil those sacrifices and the feeling of betrayal will be a hard pill to swallow ... especially for people who made such radical life choice.

It would screw with their whole view of life in a way that just wouldn't happen with the Senators. That's why I thinj the fall-out could be much worse.
@SoloSideCousin

Don't know about other people, but I come from an area that has attracted "Lotus Seekers" and communes for at least the past century and based on history, there are plenty of examples where idealism is overcome by human nature in the worst way. Jonestown and the People's Temple being the most extreme example. But there have been lots of little alternative communities both from the 19th century anti-industrial/End of Time groups and back to the earth communes that have flamed out pretty spectacularly. So it's not hard for my mind to go there about things falling apart pretty quickly during a crisis.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Reynak on Thu 5 May - 16:11

K
@BastilaBey wrote:The databank has to be 'from a certain point of view' as others have said, just like the visual dictionaries, because they are hardly going to give away something that has yet to be revealed as a twist. It's classic misdirection in my opinion, because they counted on the audience filling in the blanks and assuming that something had gone down that was very similar to Anakin with the younglings/order 66 generally. And that's not to say Ben was innocent, of course not, but veiled references from Han like 'destruction' hint that there's much more information coming.
@"BastilaBey

Exactly. The dictionaries have to say what people in universe believe to be the truth and if their assuptions are wrong the truth will be discovered in the cinema watching the movie. But it is still interesting tha Wilki sources people see as reliable have decided to change the word massacre. The official site for the movie is interested in keeping the secret and preserving JJ's mystery box bit Wikia is more independent and they may go for what they think is closer to the actual truth. Remember that promos have been misleading on purpose showing Finn with the lightsaber when it's Rey that is FS. Wikia is under no obligation to protect the mystery box and has no need to be mysterious to keep the mystery box closed.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by MeadowofAshes on Thu 5 May - 16:38

@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Jakku wrote:The whole Bloodline revelation of Leia being Vader's child focused on the effect on her. It's not ignored that there will be repercussions for Luke and Ben too, as being genetic descendants of the hated Vader, but very little is mentioned about it in the book.

It strikes me, though, that Luke's students might be just as hostile and angry about the revelation as the politicians were to Leia.  You're studying under this great Jedi, a beacon of the light, and then discover he's actually the progeny of the evil darkside baddie who wrecked your parents' lives.  How would you feel about that news?  Especially as he's kept it secret from you?  Wouldn't you wonder if you were being surreptitiously recruited by the dark side?

And would you believe that his nephew also didn't know?  

I'm thinking that very bad things happened when the news broke on campus.
@Jakku

I agree. I think it would go down worse with Luke's students than it would with the Senate. The reason I say that relates to what you say above. Leia is not widely known to be force sensitive, and she has never been trained. Her colleagues lost their minds when (1) they think she has no force power, (2) they know she was raised by Bail, (3) she has a impeccable history of being anti-Empire and centralized government and (4) these people just worked with her!

OTOH, Luke's students have made a serious sacrifice, an arguably extreme religious decision to throw off all the little joys of life to follow this supposedly wise monk around. There is no "girls or boys night out" with this guy. There's no going to the SW version of the movies or going to a football game or eating steak and lobster with Luke, like there even would be with regular Sw version priest/nun/minster/rabbi religious figure. This is like going to those old medieval monasteries on the edge of a cliff. This is taking hard journeys like some Jedi fellowship of the ring. Maybe that's worth it when you're following the SW version of biblical prophet or St. Francis or Buddha around. But when your holy man suddenly turns into the son of the devil those sacrifices and the feeling of betrayal will be a hard pill to swallow ... especially for people who made such radical life choice.

It would screw with their whole view of life in a way that just wouldn't happen with the Senators. That's why I thinj the fall-out could be much worse.
@SoloSideCousin

I think you have a point there, even before Bloodlines spoilers came out (unfortunately I have to wait another week to get my hands on it), I was quite suspicious from the beginning about Han s story about betrayal (though I do not think that Han has lied - not at all - he told a story to "kids" he had heard (I am pretty sure now, that nor Han, nor Leia know exactly what went wrong in the "temple" or community or whatever.)
On the other hand, keep Snoke in mind all the time. Still zero info on him.
And there is another question regarding Snoke and Luke: at moment when Snoke was revealed as the pure dark side something-not-a-Sith, and the leader of super-sinister FO (rose from the dark side per San Tekka) , why Luke as the "last of the Jedi" never confronted him.
At least I would expect of him to do so (evidence for this: Leia is more than eager to find his brother).

Too much mystery around Luke. As character he was never a coward, but it still looks like he ran away from everything.
I do not think it just happened the way TFA presented it. Something else was going on for sure, I am quite certain of it now.
@Darth_Awakened

It would be completely out of character IMO for Luke to go into hiding. He's looking for something in the First Jedi Temple. Whether it's an object or information and whether to help him beat Snoke or bring Ben back to the Light, he's in search of answers, not running from responsibility. I don't mind the obvious misdirection so much as the zealotry it seems to inspire in those who took the bait - Skywalker in hiding, Rey Skywalker, FinnRey...
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Thu 5 May - 16:52

While I do strongly suspect that Ben either directly killed someone at the temple or did something that indirectly lead to people's deaths, is he ever actually referred to as "Jedi Killer" in TFA? I don't recall that being the case, and I don't recall seeing that phrase in the novelization (maybe I'm wrong). Was "Jedi Killer" in the script?

I'm just wondering if that phrase is a holdover from an earlier version of the script. I am starting to get the feeling that Ben's backstory was changed a bit for RJ.

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Darth_Awakened on Thu 5 May - 17:09

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:While I do strongly suspect that Ben either directly killed someone at the temple or did something that indirectly lead to people's deaths, is he ever actually referred to as "Jedi Killer" in TFA? I don't recall that being the case, and I don't recall seeing that phrase in the novelization (maybe I'm wrong). Was "Jedi Killer" in the script?

I'm just wondering if that phrase is a holdover from an earlier version of the script. I am starting to get the feeling that Ben's backstory was changed a bit for RJ.
@ISeeAnIsland

No, never. Was it just an early art concept or something?
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 5 May - 17:16

@snufkin wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Jakku wrote:The whole Bloodline revelation of Leia being Vader's child focused on the effect on her. It's not ignored that there will be repercussions for Luke and Ben too, as being genetic descendants of the hated Vader, but very little is mentioned about it in the book.

It strikes me, though, that Luke's students might be just as hostile and angry about the revelation as the politicians were to Leia.  You're studying under this great Jedi, a beacon of the light, and then discover he's actually the progeny of the evil darkside baddie who wrecked your parents' lives.  How would you feel about that news?  Especially as he's kept it secret from you?  Wouldn't you wonder if you were being surreptitiously recruited by the dark side?

And would you believe that his nephew also didn't know?  

I'm thinking that very bad things happened when the news broke on campus.
@Jakku

I agree. I think it would go down worse with Luke's students than it would with the Senate. The reason I say that relates to what you say above. Leia is not widely known to be force sensitive, and she has never been trained. Her colleagues lost their minds when (1) they think she has no force power, (2) they know she was raised by Bail, (3) she has a impeccable history of being anti-Empire and centralized government and (4) these people just worked with her!

OTOH, Luke's students have made a serious sacrifice, an arguably extreme religious decision to throw off all the little joys of life to follow this supposedly wise monk around. There is no "girls or boys night out" with this guy. There's no going to the SW version of the movies or going to a football game or eating steak and lobster with Luke, like there even would be with regular Sw version priest/nun/minster/rabbi religious figure. This is like going to those old medieval monasteries on the edge of a cliff. This is taking hard journeys like some Jedi fellowship of the ring.  Maybe that's worth it when you're following the SW version of biblical prophet or St. Francis or Buddha around.  But when your holy man suddenly turns into the son of the devil those sacrifices and the feeling of betrayal will be a hard pill to swallow ... especially for people who made such radical life choice.

It would screw with their whole view of life in a way that just wouldn't happen with the Senators. That's why I thinj the fall-out could be much worse.
@SoloSideCousin

Don't know about other people, but I come from an area that has attracted "Lotus Seekers" and communes for at least the past century and based on history, there are plenty of examples where idealism is overcome by human nature in the worst way. Jonestown and the People's Temple being the most extreme example. But there have been lots of little alternative communities both from the 19th century anti-industrial/End of Time groups and back to the earth communes that have flamed out pretty spectacularly. So it's not hard for my mind to go there about things falling apart pretty quickly during a crisis.
@snufkin

This is a really good point.  With no Jedi apparatus backing him up and no settled canon in terms of rules or religious texts, Luke's community would very much be like those small, start-up groups.  And such groups are really vulnerable to imploding if the leadership is bad or if the faith in the leadership dissolves because the whole thing tends to be based on the cult of personality of the leader.  In other words, it's all about Luke being the last Jedi and his history of defeating the emperor.  He doesn't even have a standard Bible or Koran or Torah or Talmud kind of text to work from.  He is actually searching for those materials to remake the canon.  In real life religions there are a lot of books/writings that never made it into the final product for a variety of reasons.  However in those cases, there would be a decent number of religious thinkers contributing to the debate.  

With Luke who is making that decision as to what is a good text or not? Luke! With maybe a little input from the likes of LST.  I imagine Luke has been trusted to make those decisions because he is supposed to be in the Light and because the Force (the SW version of God or the Holy Spirit or angels) is guiding his thinking.  But when it turns out that this great arbiter of what is right and what is wrong turns out to be a Force Devil's son, all of that falls apart.  The cult of personality disintegrates ... and if some of the followers had family that suffered under that devil (Vader), the fall-out could be insane ... especially since the Jedi had a history of teaching that dark side users had to be eliminated by death ... with basically no questions asked.  Yoda and Obi-Wan sent Luke to kill Vader.  Who says that the acolytes don't think that it's their duty to the Light to kill the dark siders in their midst? Luke and Ben.  Talk about getting ugly.

Also, even if Ben was a total victim in such an attack (like the acolytes gang up on him and think he's dead and throw him down a well or lock him in a burning temple and he survives type of thing), he would still have made that "Skywalker mistake" of emotion first and reason later by letting himself getting to such a bad place that he was made vulnerable to Snoke.  (Anakin did something similar after cutting Mace's hand.  He could have run and gone to Yoda, told the truth and taken the consequences.  Instead he totally capitulated to his despair).  The falling to despair thing is very sympathetic and an understandable reason, but it's still a mistake that not everyone would make, but a Skywalker probably would.  But after reading Bloodlines and seeing how much of a do-or-die fighter Ben's mother is (another Skywalker trait), I think there will probably be a fight.  Ben will be initially justified in fighting back but then his strength and probably dark-fueled power will probably lead him to overwhelm his attackers in a rage ... putting him more in that crime of passion/manslaughter type of category than murderer category.  He can come back from that, and still have it be complicated and in keeping with Skywalker tendencies.  I think the difference between Ben and Anakin in this instance will be that Ben will fall into despair and self-loathing and will feel guilty, that guilt creating a mental highway for Snoke to overwhelm him ... whereas Anakin justified his passion killing and his hate.  They've had two chances to show the darkness of pre-fall Ben so far in the TFA and Bloodlines and they still have not shown anything but the fact that Snoke was trying to push him towards the darkness.  In TFA Leia blames Snoke and "wants him back", and in Bloodline there is no real mention of darkness in Ben at all.  They could show some pre-Kylo darkness in Episode VIII, but I get the feeling that Ben was a better person than Anakin was.
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SoloSideCousin
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Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

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