What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by snufkin on Thu 5 May - 17:25

Also knowing several people who've been dragged off as kids by their hippie parents to live off of the grid and how well that goes, that's also what immediately comes to mind with this scenario. Like it's been said, some real Lord of the Flies type stuff could've gone down. And while half of me wants to write down notes of everything that's been discussed/possibly figured out, I also sort of fear falling down this type of rabbit hole:

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 5 May - 18:03

@snufkin wrote:Also knowing several people who've been dragged off as kids by their hippie parents to live off of the grid and how well that goes, that's also what immediately comes to mind with this scenario. Like it's been said, some real Lord of the Flies type stuff could've gone down. And while half of me wants to write down notes of everything that's been discussed/possibly figured out, I also sort of fear falling down this type of rabbit hole:

@snufkin

OMG! That is the most brilliant thing *ever*!!!!!!! I never watched that show. If it's all that good, count me in! Very Happy
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by snufkin on Thu 5 May - 18:07

@SoloSideCousin, the writers were pretty clearly fans of Star Wars and other science fiction novels/movies. Which is a running joke with Adam Scott's character, who is a bit Ben Solo-esque underneath his initial bluster. He's very obsessed with Star Wars and they flash forward for the final season where it's a joke that his wife has had to listen to him muttering the release date for the Force Awakens in his sleep. There's also a running gag about Game of Thrones, both he and Donna Meagle are obsessed with that show. Donna has a line about how "Those Dothraki dudes can hit it." It's not hard to imagine if they were still on, she'd be saying the same thing about Kylo Ren.



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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Thu 5 May - 18:36

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@snufkin wrote:Also knowing several people who've been dragged off as kids by their hippie parents to live off of the grid and how well that goes, that's also what immediately comes to mind with this scenario. Like it's been said, some real Lord of the Flies type stuff could've gone down. And while half of me wants to write down notes of everything that's been discussed/possibly figured out, I also sort of fear falling down this type of rabbit hole:

@snufkin

OMG! That is the most brilliant thing *ever*!!!!!!! I never watched that show. If it's all that good, count me in! Very Happy
@SoloSideCousin

If you're not familiar with Patton Oswalt, he is AMAZINGLY funny, and his comedy tends to be very intelligent. And he's a huge Star Wars fan. He's got a bit about the PT that I love:



He also wrote a book (Silver Screen Fiend), where the punchline of the entire book is that he spent years addicted to cinema...to end up breaking that addiction by being horribly let down by The Phantom Menace.

And yeah, if you haven't heard, his 46-year-old wife died suddenly in her sleep a couple of weeks ago--their daughter is only 7 years old.

No, I'm clearly not a fangurl of his (and his wife was a great writer, too) or anything.



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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by snufkin on Thu 5 May - 18:52

@ISeeAnIsland, he's pretty brilliant. I would've loved to have seen the book club/lecture series he did about Moby d**** in conjunction with LA County Public Libraries. And yeah, the news about his wife sounds incredibly tragic, especially having a small child.

@solosidecousin, you should check it out. They have a lot of love for nerd culture in general but Star Wars is a running gag



On topic, I'd go with a Lord of the Flies or hippie commune gone bad type scenario.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 5 May - 19:46

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@snufkin wrote:Also knowing several people who've been dragged off as kids by their hippie parents to live off of the grid and how well that goes, that's also what immediately comes to mind with this scenario. Like it's been said, some real Lord of the Flies type stuff could've gone down. And while half of me wants to write down notes of everything that's been discussed/possibly figured out, I also sort of fear falling down this type of rabbit hole:

@snufkin

OMG! That is the most brilliant thing *ever*!!!!!!! I never watched that show. If it's all that good, count me in! Very Happy
@SoloSideCousin

If you're not familiar with Patton Oswalt, he is AMAZINGLY funny, and his comedy tends to be very intelligent. And he's a huge Star Wars fan. He's got a bit about the PT that I love:



He also wrote a book (Silver Screen Fiend), where the punchline of the entire book is that he spent years addicted to cinema...to end up breaking that addiction by being horribly let down by The Phantom Menace.

And yeah, if you haven't heard, his 46-year-old wife died suddenly in her sleep a couple of weeks ago--their daughter is only 7 years old.

No, I'm clearly not a fangurl of his (and his wife was a great writer, too) or anything.


@ISeeAnIsland

I have seen him in a variety of things, including that Charlize Theron movie Young Adult, but I had no idea that he had done so much.

The sudden death of his wife is absolutely horrible. I come from a family that has a history of younger people dying suddenly due to cardiovascular/stroke issues, and I can tell you that such deaths are absolutely devastating, with the ramifications if them lasting multiple generations.

I wonder if she had a heart issue or an aneurysm. Both can be genetic. I am really aggressive about getting tests for myself and my family, and abnormalities have been found. Like I have to have an echo every year because of a valve leak and one day I might need minimally invasive heart surgery. It's annoying, sure, but it's better to know these things so you can be monitored.

In my case people had to die to give my family the warning. I bet she had no warning. The whole thing is absolutely terrible, especially for that child.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Jozie on Thu 5 May - 19:56

I really like your "Lord of the Flies" theory, but if that's what happened, why would Han say "one boy turned against him, destroyed it all"?
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by vaderito on Thu 5 May - 19:59

@Jozie wrote:I really like your "Lord of the Flies" theory, but if that's what happened, why would Han say "one boy turned against him, destroyed it all"?
@Jozie

what we know are stories and it's possible that stories are what Han and Leia heard. only those who were present know what happened. It will be revealed in VIII or IX, likely VIII.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by panki on Thu 5 May - 20:00

@Jozie wrote:I really like your "Lord of the Flies" theory, but if that's what happened, why would Han say "one boy turned against him, destroyed it all"?
@Jozie

Han would only know the story as told to him by third parties since both Luke and Ben had disappeared and wouldn't be able to tell their story....if any of the students survived the fire, they'd obviously blame "Vader's grandson' for whatever transpired.....even if they had a role in the events at the temple.

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Thu 5 May - 20:09

@Jozie wrote:I really like your "Lord of the Flies" theory, but if that's what happened, why would Han say "one boy turned against him, destroyed it all"?
@Jozie

I know that we've gone back and forth on whether "one boy" refers to Ben or not, but in light of the Vader reveal, what if the "one boy" was someone who turned on Luke AND Ben because of the Vader reveal? (Assuming that Luke was present when the fire, etc, happened.)

Maybe we have a scenario where Ben did something awful and/or drastic to protect Luke?

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Kessel on Thu 5 May - 20:25

There is definitely more to it. Didn't Pablo even say there was more story to tell in regards to Ben's transformation into Kylo.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Jozie on Thu 5 May - 20:28

@vaderito
@panki

It makes sense that Han might not have known everything and I'd be happy if it turned out to be the case, cause I really like this theory, it explains a lot. But I have another problem: Leia's conclusion that it was all because of Snoke. If we assume that what happened at the "academy" that resulted in Ben's turn coincided with the Vader reveal, wouldn't she connect those two things rather than blame only Snoke?

@ISeeAnIsland
Hm, could be... But I feel it would whitewash Ben too much. There had to be a big reason for his turn, he must have done something that made him feel like there's no return for him. And I think that even doing something drastic in order to save someone is a bit on the light side (are my morals all over the place for thinking that? Smile)
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 5 May - 21:10

@Jozie wrote:@vaderito
@panki

It makes sense that Han might not have known everything and I'd be happy if it turned out to be the case, cause I really like this theory, it explains a lot. But I have another problem: Leia's conclusion that it was all because of Snoke. If we assume that what happened at the "academy" that resulted in Ben's turn coincided with the Vader reveal, wouldn't she connect those two things rather than blame only Snoke?

@ISeeAnIsland
Hm, could be... But I feel it would whitewash Ben too much. There had to be a big reason for his turn, he must have done something that made him feel like there's no return for him. And I think that even doing something drastic in order to save someone is a bit on the light side (are my morals all over the place for thinking that? Smile)
@Jozie

I think Ben probably had some kind mental break/dark-side infusion during an extremely stressful situation and probably did some significant damage in some kind of crime of passion kind of way.

However, I would be quite open to Ben making some self-sacrificial choice for Luke ... or whoever ... because I don't find the "whitewashing worry" argument that compelling. That's just me. The way I see it is that Kylo/Ben already stabbed his Dad in the heart. He already ordered the killing of the village. He cut down LST because he was p***** at him. He's apparently been with the FO for a few years, so you got to think he's got a decent rap sheet already. He's a bad dude when we meet him.

But I don't think you *need to* add on him killing a bunch of students to make sure his redemption is powerful. In fact, I think it might actually be more compelling if he did go into this whole thing for a good reason and that he took on the burden of guilt that might not have completely belonged to him, and because of that self-sacrificial decision, which might have been noble and amazing, he gets in over his head and gets worn down and still falls to the dark side. Think about it. He goes from being Leia's "no complaints" son traipsing around with Luke to taking out villages, during forcible mind reads and stabbing his father in the chest in like 7 years at the most. If he went in with a "light" goal and then the system itself corrupted him, that would be really tragic ... a real fallen angel ... a real naive boy lost kind of thing ... when Anakin was just the opposite. They want us to think Kylo is just like Anakin, but I don't think he will be. Everyone had to die so Anakin could have his wife. If Ben goes in and willingly ruins himself for the sake of other people and still goes evil, he will have been nothing like Anakin and his fall will rip your heart out, unlike Anakin, who seemed to have "the fall to the dark" in the mail for several years.

Also, everyone is really expecting the worst of Kylo. Even we're expecting plenty of blood to be on his hands, but if Kylo is actually not the biggest bad actor in the whole Luke thing, while unstable Luke might have some things to answer for, that will really blow a lot of people's minds. And they do want to blow people's minds. There seems to be so much expectation that Luke is good and Kylo is evil among the GA ... if they actually figured out a way to flip them, that would be insane, and it would successfully shake everyone's certainty about the franchise from here on out.

I seriously doubt they will go this way because they will be too afraid to screw too much with Luke. But this kind of thing appeals to me personally because I really disliked earnest Jedi Luke. I thought it was unearned and came out of nowhere. No Skywalker should be that serene IMO, so unhinged Luke is super exciting to me. OTOH, Kylo really made me care about him even as he did terrible things, so I won't be the one to put a lot of restrictions on how he should be redeemed. I think a lot of it has to do with how you primarily see movies. I think acting is my number one thing in movies. I can watch some mediocre stuff if the acting is awesome, because if the acting is good enough you can forgive a number of storyline sins and AD just grabbed me in the chest. If he keeps doing what he did in Episode VIII, I will probably still sympathize with Kylo so long as AD plays him sympathetically and the storyline doesn't get too ridiculous (i.e. Kylo blows up a bunch of planets, kills his mother, etc.)
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by EchoBase on Thu 5 May - 21:25

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Jozie wrote:@vaderito
@panki

It makes sense that Han might not have known everything and I'd be happy if it turned out to be the case, cause I really like this theory, it explains a lot. But I have another problem: Leia's conclusion that it was all because of Snoke. If we assume that what happened at the "academy" that resulted in Ben's turn coincided with the Vader reveal, wouldn't she connect those two things rather than blame only Snoke?

@ISeeAnIsland
Hm, could be... But I feel it would whitewash Ben too much. There had to be a big reason for his turn, he must have done something that made him feel like there's no return for him. And I think that even doing something drastic in order to save someone is a bit on the light side (are my morals all over the place for thinking that? Smile)
@Jozie

I think Ben probably had some kind mental break/dark-side infusion during an extremely stressful situation and probably did some significant damage in some kind of crime of passion kind of way.

However, I would be quite open to Ben making some self-sacrificial choice for Luke ... or whoever ... because I don't find the "whitewashing worry" argument that compelling. That's just me. The way I see it is that Kylo/Ben already stabbed his Dad in the heart. He already ordered the killing of the village. He cut down LST because he was p***** at him. He's apparently been with the FO for a few years, so you got to think he's got a decent rap sheet already. He's a bad dude when we meet him.

But I don't think you *need to* add on him killing a bunch of students to make sure his redemption is powerful. In fact, I think it might actually be more compelling if he did go into this whole thing for a good reason and that he took on the burden of guilt that might not have completely belonged to him, and because of that self-sacrificial decision, which might have been noble and amazing, he gets in over his head and gets worn down and still falls to the dark side. Think about it. He goes from being Leia's "no complaints" son traipsing around with Luke to taking out villages, during forcible mind reads and stabbing his father in the chest in like 7 years at the most. If he went in with a "light" goal and then the system itself corrupted him, that would be really tragic ... a real fallen angel ... a real naive boy lost kind of thing ... when Anakin was just the opposite. They want us to think Kylo is just like Anakin, but I don't think he will be. Everyone had to die so Anakin could have his wife. If Ben goes in and willingly ruins himself for the sake of other people and still goes evil, he will have been nothing like Anakin and his fall will rip your heart out, unlike Anakin, who seemed to have "the fall to the dark" in the mail for several years.

Also, everyone is really expecting the worst of Kylo. Even we're expecting plenty of blood to be on his hands, but if Kylo is actually not the biggest bad actor in the whole Luke thing, while unstable Luke might have some things to answer for, that will really blow a lot of people's minds. And they do want to blow people's minds. There seems to be so much expectation that Luke is good and Kylo is evil among the GA ... if they actually figured out a way to flip them, that would be insane, and it would successfully shake everyone's certainty about the franchise from here on out.

I seriously doubt they will go this way because they will be too afraid to screw too much with Luke. But this kind of thing appeals to me personally because I really disliked earnest Jedi Luke. I thought it was unearned and came out of nowhere. No Skywalker should be that serene IMO, so unhinged Luke is super exciting to me. OTOH, Kylo really made me care about him even as he did terrible things, so I won't be the one to put a lot of restrictions on how he should be redeemed. I think a lot of it has to do with how you primarily see movies. I think acting is my number one thing in movies. I can watch some mediocre stuff if the acting is awesome, because if the acting is good enough you can forgive a number of storyline sins and AD just grabbed me in the chest. If he keeps doing what he did in Episode VIII, I will probably still sympathize with Kylo so long as AD plays him sympathetically and the storyline doesn't get too ridiculous (i.e. Kylo blows up a bunch of planets, kills his mother, etc.)
@SoloSideCousin

"No Skywalker should be that serene IMO".

This is so cool. A few hours ago I was talking with my husband about the possibility of Luke being a real bad*** or doing something really terrible. And he was like: "Nooo, not Luke." And me: "I'm sure every Skywalker has a skeleton in the closet". Very Happy.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 5 May - 21:33

@EchoBase wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Jozie wrote:@vaderito
@panki

It makes sense that Han might not have known everything and I'd be happy if it turned out to be the case, cause I really like this theory, it explains a lot. But I have another problem: Leia's conclusion that it was all because of Snoke. If we assume that what happened at the "academy" that resulted in Ben's turn coincided with the Vader reveal, wouldn't she connect those two things rather than blame only Snoke?

@ISeeAnIsland
Hm, could be... But I feel it would whitewash Ben too much. There had to be a big reason for his turn, he must have done something that made him feel like there's no return for him. And I think that even doing something drastic in order to save someone is a bit on the light side (are my morals all over the place for thinking that? Smile)
@Jozie

I think Ben probably had some kind mental break/dark-side infusion during an extremely stressful situation and probably did some significant damage in some kind of crime of passion kind of way.

However, I would be quite open to Ben making some self-sacrificial choice for Luke ... or whoever ... because I don't find the "whitewashing worry" argument that compelling. That's just me. The way I see it is that Kylo/Ben already stabbed his Dad in the heart. He already ordered the killing of the village. He cut down LST because he was p***** at him. He's apparently been with the FO for a few years, so you got to think he's got a decent rap sheet already. He's a bad dude when we meet him.

But I don't think you *need to* add on him killing a bunch of students to make sure his redemption is powerful. In fact, I think it might actually be more compelling if he did go into this whole thing for a good reason and that he took on the burden of guilt that might not have completely belonged to him, and because of that self-sacrificial decision, which might have been noble and amazing, he gets in over his head and gets worn down and still falls to the dark side. Think about it. He goes from being Leia's "no complaints" son traipsing around with Luke to taking out villages, during forcible mind reads and stabbing his father in the chest in like 7 years at the most. If he went in with a "light" goal and then the system itself corrupted him, that would be really tragic ... a real fallen angel ... a real naive boy lost kind of thing ... when Anakin was just the opposite. They want us to think Kylo is just like Anakin, but I don't think he will be. Everyone had to die so Anakin could have his wife. If Ben goes in and willingly ruins himself for the sake of other people and still goes evil, he will have been nothing like Anakin and his fall will rip your heart out, unlike Anakin, who seemed to have "the fall to the dark" in the mail for several years.

Also, everyone is really expecting the worst of Kylo. Even we're expecting plenty of blood to be on his hands, but if Kylo is actually not the biggest bad actor in the whole Luke thing, while unstable Luke might have some things to answer for, that will really blow a lot of people's minds. And they do want to blow people's minds. There seems to be so much expectation that Luke is good and Kylo is evil among the GA ... if they actually figured out a way to flip them, that would be insane, and it would successfully shake everyone's certainty about the franchise from here on out.

I seriously doubt they will go this way because they will be too afraid to screw too much with Luke. But this kind of thing appeals to me personally because I really disliked earnest Jedi Luke. I thought it was unearned and came out of nowhere. No Skywalker should be that serene IMO, so unhinged Luke is super exciting to me. OTOH, Kylo really made me care about him even as he did terrible things, so I won't be the one to put a lot of restrictions on how he should be redeemed. I think a lot of it has to do with how you primarily see movies. I think acting is my number one thing in movies. I can watch some mediocre stuff if the acting is awesome, because if the acting is good enough you can forgive a number of storyline sins and AD just grabbed me in the chest. If he keeps doing what he did in Episode VIII, I will probably still sympathize with Kylo so long as AD plays him sympathetically and the storyline doesn't get too ridiculous (i.e. Kylo blows up a bunch of planets, kills his mother, etc.)
@SoloSideCousin

"No Skywalker should be that serene IMO".

This is so cool. A few hours ago I was talking with my husband about the possibility of Luke being a real bad*** or doing something really terrible. And he was like: "Nooo, not Luke." And me: "I'm sure every Skywalker has a skeleton in the closet". Very Happy.
@EchoBase

If you haven't read Bloodline yet, I can't wait until you do, because I want to hear what you think. I think both Luke and Leia might have some issues from "dear old dad" ... and not necessarily evil, more like impulse control and temper issues.

Also, my husband has a friend who years ago wrote something for a couple of the old EU things (I think it might have been for a game ... I will have to ask him again), and the core message that guy received was something to the effect, "Skywalkers mess up. If someone is a Skywalker they are going to screw up." I think something of that ethos might still hold, particularly with the men. And Luke's had a good run of serenity. Let some Anakin/Vader genes start expressing a little bit. Laughing

Leia seemed to be protected from that for a long time, but in Bloodline she seems to make what I would call "hasty and emotional ... basically Skywalker-ish type of decisions. Again, I'll be interested in what you think. :-)
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by EchoBase on Thu 5 May - 21:46

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@EchoBase wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Jozie wrote:@vaderito
@panki

It makes sense that Han might not have known everything and I'd be happy if it turned out to be the case, cause I really like this theory, it explains a lot. But I have another problem: Leia's conclusion that it was all because of Snoke. If we assume that what happened at the "academy" that resulted in Ben's turn coincided with the Vader reveal, wouldn't she connect those two things rather than blame only Snoke?

@ISeeAnIsland
Hm, could be... But I feel it would whitewash Ben too much. There had to be a big reason for his turn, he must have done something that made him feel like there's no return for him. And I think that even doing something drastic in order to save someone is a bit on the light side (are my morals all over the place for thinking that? Smile)
@Jozie

I think Ben probably had some kind mental break/dark-side infusion during an extremely stressful situation and probably did some significant damage in some kind of crime of passion kind of way.

However, I would be quite open to Ben making some self-sacrificial choice for Luke ... or whoever ... because I don't find the "whitewashing worry" argument that compelling. That's just me. The way I see it is that Kylo/Ben already stabbed his Dad in the heart. He already ordered the killing of the village. He cut down LST because he was p***** at him. He's apparently been with the FO for a few years, so you got to think he's got a decent rap sheet already. He's a bad dude when we meet him.

But I don't think you *need to* add on him killing a bunch of students to make sure his redemption is powerful. In fact, I think it might actually be more compelling if he did go into this whole thing for a good reason and that he took on the burden of guilt that might not have completely belonged to him, and because of that self-sacrificial decision, which might have been noble and amazing, he gets in over his head and gets worn down and still falls to the dark side. Think about it. He goes from being Leia's "no complaints" son traipsing around with Luke to taking out villages, during forcible mind reads and stabbing his father in the chest in like 7 years at the most. If he went in with a "light" goal and then the system itself corrupted him, that would be really tragic ... a real fallen angel ... a real naive boy lost kind of thing ... when Anakin was just the opposite. They want us to think Kylo is just like Anakin, but I don't think he will be. Everyone had to die so Anakin could have his wife. If Ben goes in and willingly ruins himself for the sake of other people and still goes evil, he will have been nothing like Anakin and his fall will rip your heart out, unlike Anakin, who seemed to have "the fall to the dark" in the mail for several years.

Also, everyone is really expecting the worst of Kylo. Even we're expecting plenty of blood to be on his hands, but if Kylo is actually not the biggest bad actor in the whole Luke thing, while unstable Luke might have some things to answer for, that will really blow a lot of people's minds. And they do want to blow people's minds. There seems to be so much expectation that Luke is good and Kylo is evil among the GA ... if they actually figured out a way to flip them, that would be insane, and it would successfully shake everyone's certainty about the franchise from here on out.

I seriously doubt they will go this way because they will be too afraid to screw too much with Luke. But this kind of thing appeals to me personally because I really disliked earnest Jedi Luke. I thought it was unearned and came out of nowhere. No Skywalker should be that serene IMO, so unhinged Luke is super exciting to me. OTOH, Kylo really made me care about him even as he did terrible things, so I won't be the one to put a lot of restrictions on how he should be redeemed. I think a lot of it has to do with how you primarily see movies. I think acting is my number one thing in movies. I can watch some mediocre stuff if the acting is awesome, because if the acting is good enough you can forgive a number of storyline sins and AD just grabbed me in the chest. If he keeps doing what he did in Episode VIII, I will probably still sympathize with Kylo so long as AD plays him sympathetically and the storyline doesn't get too ridiculous (i.e. Kylo blows up a bunch of planets, kills his mother, etc.)
@SoloSideCousin

"No Skywalker should be that serene IMO".

This is so cool. A few hours ago I was talking with my husband about the possibility of Luke being a real bad*** or doing something really terrible. And he was like: "Nooo, not Luke." And me: "I'm sure every Skywalker has a skeleton in the closet". Very Happy.
@EchoBase

If you haven't read Bloodline yet, I can't wait until you do, because I want to hear what you think. I think both Luke and Leia might have some issues from "dear old dad" ... and not necessarily evil, more like impulse control and temper issues.

Also, my husband has a friend who years ago wrote something for a couple of the old EU things (I think it might have been for a game ... I will have to ask him again), and the core message that guy received was something to the effect, "Skywalkers mess up. If someone is a Skywalker they are going to screw up." I think something of that ethos might still hold, particularly with the men. And Luke's had a good run of serenity. Let some Anakin/Vader genes start expressing a little bit. Laughing

Leia seemed to be protected from that for a long time, but in Bloodline she seems to make what I would call "hasty and emotional ... basically Skywalker-ish type of decisions. Again, I'll be interested in what you think. :-)
@SoloSideCousin

Oh, I started yesterday and was reading in the spoiler-thread as well Smile.
I'm reading a digital version on my IPad, which is kind of annoying, so I'm kinda slow, but my hardcover-version will arrive on Monday Sad.
And your husband's friend could be so right. The Skywalkers are the Space-Kennedys Very Happy. Cursed and damned.

I fully agree, Luke can't be that serene, not after ROTJ. I loved him most in ROTJ, when he was having his inner conflict, flirting with the dark side, wearing all black Wink.

I really need some bada***. I don't want him to be a mentor like Obi-Wan, we've already had that.

And Leia? I think there is much more to come, especially in ep9. I would even go so far and say, she could be the one who kills Snoke. Don't underestimate her. Wink.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Reynak on Thu 5 May - 21:50

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Jozie wrote:@vaderito
@panki

It makes sense that Han might not have known everything and I'd be happy if it turned out to be the case, cause I really like this theory, it explains a lot. But I have another problem: Leia's conclusion that it was all because of Snoke. If we assume that what happened at the "academy" that resulted in Ben's turn coincided with the Vader reveal, wouldn't she connect those two things rather than blame only Snoke?

@ISeeAnIsland
Hm, could be... But I feel it would whitewash Ben too much. There had to be a big reason for his turn, he must have done something that made him feel like there's no return for him. And I think that even doing something drastic in order to save someone is a bit on the light side (are my morals all over the place for thinking that? Smile)
@Jozie

I think Ben probably had some kind mental break/dark-side infusion during an extremely stressful situation and probably did some significant damage in some kind of crime of passion kind of way.

However, I would be quite open to Ben making some self-sacrificial choice for Luke ... or whoever ... because I don't find the "whitewashing worry" argument that compelling.  That's just me.  The way I see it is that Kylo/Ben already stabbed his Dad in the heart.  He already ordered the killing of the village.  He cut down LST because he was p***** at him. He's apparently been with the FO for a few years, so you got to think he's got a decent rap sheet already.  He's a bad dude when we meet him.

But I don't think you *need to* add on him killing a bunch of students to make sure his redemption is powerful.  In fact, I think it might actually be more compelling if he did go into this whole thing for a good reason and that he took on the burden of guilt that might not have completely belonged to him, and because of that self-sacrificial decision, which might have been noble and amazing, he gets in over his head and gets worn down and still falls to the dark side.  Think about it.  He goes from being Leia's "no complaints" son traipsing around with Luke to taking out villages, during forcible mind reads and stabbing his father in the chest in like 7 years at the most.  If he went in with a "light" goal and then the system itself corrupted him, that would be really tragic ... a real fallen angel ... a real naive boy lost kind of thing ... when Anakin was just the opposite.  They want us to think Kylo is just like Anakin, but I don't think he will be.  Everyone had to die so Anakin could have his wife.  If Ben goes in and willingly ruins himself for the sake of other people and still goes evil, he will have been nothing like Anakin and his fall will rip your heart out, unlike Anakin, who seemed to have "the fall to the dark" in the mail for several years.

Also, everyone is really expecting the worst of Kylo.  Even we're expecting plenty of blood to be on his hands, but if Kylo is actually not the biggest bad actor in the whole Luke thing, while unstable Luke might have some things to answer for, that will really blow a lot of people's minds.  And they do want to blow people's minds.  There seems to be so much expectation that Luke is good and Kylo is evil among the GA ... if they actually figured out a way to flip them, that would be insane, and it would successfully shake everyone's certainty about the franchise from here on out.

I seriously doubt they will go this way because they will be too afraid to screw too much with Luke.  But this kind of thing appeals to me personally because I really disliked earnest Jedi Luke.  I thought it was unearned and came out of nowhere.  No Skywalker should be that serene IMO, so unhinged Luke is super exciting to me.  OTOH, Kylo really made me care about him even as he did terrible things, so I won't be the one to put a lot of restrictions on how he should be redeemed.  I think a lot of it has to do with how you primarily see movies.  I think acting is my number one thing in movies.  I can watch some mediocre stuff if the acting is awesome, because if the acting is good enough you can forgive a number of storyline sins and AD just grabbed me in the chest.  If he keeps doing what he did in Episode VIII, I will probably still sympathize with Kylo so long as AD plays him sympathetically and the storyline doesn't get too ridiculous (i.e. Kylo blows up a bunch of planets, kills his mother, etc.)
@SoloSideCousin

I see this just like you and the main reason the idea of tragic self-sacrifice on Kylo's part crossed my mind when I saw the movie for the first time was Adam and Harrison's performances on that scene. It felt like a sacrifice on both sides and that Kylo didn't do it with hatred and because he wanted revenge or something. 

The possibility that he was giving his soul for a powerful reason seemed plausible to me as well. Perhaps he fell trying to help or save someone else but there are crimes on his conscience anyway. He struggles so hard to stay in the DS hating every minute of it and feeling so miserable that I think he may be doing a terrible sacrifice for an unknown reason. He knew what he was losing when he went to Snoke and it was everything. Whatever the reasons for his fall he fell anyway and the people he killed are just as dead. 

The way Adam played Kylo this idea seems possible, it makes the character more tragic and may work when the audience is supposed to want his survival and redemption. If he was like Hux not many people would want him redeemed.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Jozie on Thu 5 May - 22:07

@SoloSideCousin @Reynak
I see where you coming from, but it goes against my idea of the DS and so I am a bit confused, but hey, maybe I don't know some important things and you could enlighten me:) . So.. you say that Kylo could fall to the DS "willingly"? That is, having initially a good goal - like to sacrifice himself for Luke - but later getting consumed by it? Cause I thought the main thing in the DS is that it is selfish and you couldnt possibly turn to the DS if you're not thinking only about yourself, your power, your hate, anger etc. - like Anakin who just wanted his wife at all cost (but for himself). So that's why I have a problem with the idea of Ben's sacrifice as a way into the DS, cause it would be entirely selfless right, he didn't want Luke for himself (bah, what a pairing...).

And I also like idea of unhinged Luke blowing things up! I can imagine how someone would be talking to him, let's say Luke would get upset and then the weather changes or sth... or some rocks would start falling down the mountain... I'd like them to introduce his power control problems in this way with Rey on Acch-To.

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 5 May - 22:24

@EchoBase wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@EchoBase wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Jozie wrote:@vaderito
@panki

It makes sense that Han might not have known everything and I'd be happy if it turned out to be the case, cause I really like this theory, it explains a lot. But I have another problem: Leia's conclusion that it was all because of Snoke. If we assume that what happened at the "academy" that resulted in Ben's turn coincided with the Vader reveal, wouldn't she connect those two things rather than blame only Snoke?

@ISeeAnIsland
Hm, could be... But I feel it would whitewash Ben too much. There had to be a big reason for his turn, he must have done something that made him feel like there's no return for him. And I think that even doing something drastic in order to save someone is a bit on the light side (are my morals all over the place for thinking that? Smile)
@Jozie

I think Ben probably had some kind mental break/dark-side infusion during an extremely stressful situation and probably did some significant damage in some kind of crime of passion kind of way.

However, I would be quite open to Ben making some self-sacrificial choice for Luke ... or whoever ... because I don't find the "whitewashing worry" argument that compelling.  That's just me.  The way I see it is that Kylo/Ben already stabbed his Dad in the heart.  He already ordered the killing of the village.  He cut down LST because he was p***** at him. He's apparently been with the FO for a few years, so you got to think he's got a decent rap sheet already.  He's a bad dude when we meet him.

But I don't think you *need to* add on him killing a bunch of students to make sure his redemption is powerful.  In fact, I think it might actually be more compelling if he did go into this whole thing for a good reason and that he took on the burden of guilt that might not have completely belonged to him, and because of that self-sacrificial decision, which might have been noble and amazing, he gets in over his head and gets worn down and still falls to the dark side.  Think about it.  He goes from being Leia's "no complaints" son traipsing around with Luke to taking out villages, during forcible mind reads and stabbing his father in the chest in like 7 years at the most.  If he went in with a "light" goal and then the system itself corrupted him, that would be really tragic ... a real fallen angel ... a real naive boy lost kind of thing ... when Anakin was just the opposite.  They want us to think Kylo is just like Anakin, but I don't think he will be.  Everyone had to die so Anakin could have his wife.  If Ben goes in and willingly ruins himself for the sake of other people and still goes evil, he will have been nothing like Anakin and his fall will rip your heart out, unlike Anakin, who seemed to have "the fall to the dark" in the mail for several years.

Also, everyone is really expecting the worst of Kylo.  Even we're expecting plenty of blood to be on his hands, but if Kylo is actually not the biggest bad actor in the whole Luke thing, while unstable Luke might have some things to answer for, that will really blow a lot of people's minds.  And they do want to blow people's minds.  There seems to be so much expectation that Luke is good and Kylo is evil among the GA ... if they actually figured out a way to flip them, that would be insane, and it would successfully shake everyone's certainty about the franchise from here on out.

I seriously doubt they will go this way because they will be too afraid to screw too much with Luke.  But this kind of thing appeals to me personally because I really disliked earnest Jedi Luke.  I thought it was unearned and came out of nowhere.  No Skywalker should be that serene IMO, so unhinged Luke is super exciting to me.  OTOH, Kylo really made me care about him even as he did terrible things, so I won't be the one to put a lot of restrictions on how he should be redeemed.  I think a lot of it has to do with how you primarily see movies.  I think acting is my number one thing in movies.  I can watch some mediocre stuff if the acting is awesome, because if the acting is good enough you can forgive a number of storyline sins and AD just grabbed me in the chest.  If he keeps doing what he did in Episode VIII, I will probably still sympathize with Kylo so long as AD plays him sympathetically and the storyline doesn't get too ridiculous (i.e. Kylo blows up a bunch of planets, kills his mother, etc.)
@SoloSideCousin

"No Skywalker should be that serene IMO".

This is so cool. A few hours ago I was talking with my husband about the possibility of Luke being a real bad*** or doing something really terrible. And he was like: "Nooo, not Luke." And me: "I'm sure every Skywalker has a skeleton in the closet". Very Happy.
@EchoBase

If you haven't read Bloodline yet, I can't wait until you do, because I want to hear what you think.  I think both Luke and Leia might have some issues from "dear old dad" ... and not necessarily evil, more like impulse control and temper issues.

Also, my husband has a friend who years ago wrote something for a couple of the old EU things (I think it might have been for a game ... I will have to ask him again), and the core message that guy received was something to the effect, "Skywalkers mess up.  If someone is a Skywalker they are going to screw up."  I think something of that ethos might still hold, particularly with the men.  And Luke's had a good run of serenity.  Let some Anakin/Vader genes start expressing a little bit.  Laughing

Leia seemed to be protected from that for a long time, but in Bloodline she seems to make what I would call "hasty and emotional ... basically Skywalker-ish type of decisions.  Again, I'll be interested in what you think. :-)
@SoloSideCousin

Oh, I started yesterday and was reading in the spoiler-thread as well Smile.
I'm reading a digital version on my IPad, which is kind of annoying, so I'm kinda slow, but my hardcover-version will arrive on Monday Sad.
And your husband's friend could be so right. The Skywalkers are the Space-Kennedys Very Happy. Cursed and damned.

I fully agree, Luke can't be that serene, not after ROTJ. I loved him most in ROTJ, when he was having his inner conflict, flirting with the dark side, wearing all black Wink.

I really need some bada***. I don't want him to be a mentor like Obi-Wan, we've already had that.

And Leia? I think there is much more to come, especially in ep9. I would even go so far and say, she could be the one who kills Snoke. Don't underestimate her. Wink.
@EchoBase

I would love it if she killed Snoke.  She is the Huttslayer after all.  Also, Kylo doesn't need that darkness and she would be defending her son *and* could finally show some force powers! :-)

P.S. Also, "Space-Kennedys". That took me by surprise ... but there actually are similarities in terms of service, self-sacrifice, risk-taking, bad-decisions, legacy pressure, politics ... Wow. I wonder if GL actually thought of the Kennedys at any point?
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Sylvia Snow on Thu 5 May - 23:35

So here's my crack theory, when the truth that Vader is Ben grandfather, some fellow students, filled by the negative thoughts from the DS, decided have their revenge by forcing them to do something really bad, like trying to burn his or Luke quarter but thing got out off control and the fire spread to the whole place, trapped other padawans inside. Ben enraged and killed those who did it then later trying to save the others by it was too late. Ben could overwhelm with guilt and run straight into Snoke's trap. Meanwhile, when Luke return in hope to stops Ben or others students but what's done is done. Ashamed he disappeared. Leia would have felt some of his emotions, fear, anger, guilt, enough for her to know that it's not entirely Ben's fault but it was planned by Snoke all along, hence why Leia insisted on "it was Snoke" as the person to blame for Ben downfall
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Reynak on Fri 6 May - 15:25

@Jozie wrote:@SoloSideCousin @Reynak
I see where you coming from, but it goes against my idea of the DS and so I am a bit confused, but hey, maybe I don't know some important things and you could enlighten me:) . So.. you say that Kylo could fall to the DS "willingly"? That is, having initially a good goal - like to sacrifice himself for Luke - but later getting consumed by it? Cause I thought the main thing in the DS is that it is selfish and you couldnt possibly turn to the DS if you're not thinking only about yourself, your power, your hate, anger etc. - like Anakin who just wanted his wife at all cost (but for himself). So that's why I have a problem with the idea of Ben's sacrifice as a way into the DS, cause it would be entirely selfless right, he didn't want Luke for himself (bah, what a pairing...).

And I also like idea of unhinged Luke blowing things up! I can imagine how someone would be talking to him, let's say Luke would get upset and then the weather changes or sth... or some rocks would start falling down the mountain... I'd like them to introduce his power control problems in this way with Rey on Acch-To.

@", 

I agree with you Skywalkers are not very good mentor material, you're right. They never made such good parental figures either. Leia was the best in that department and she wasn't there for her son when he needed her.

Skywalkers love deeply, their stories have always been about love, love has always been crucial in their archs but they were never so good at relationships with their loved ones. We have seen them in different types of relationships which they always screwed up for some reason. Luke was the most patient, the best of them at dealing with his loved ones but failed big time with his nephew and that's tragic. That kid really needed guidance and support and no one in his family was able to provide what he needed. If Luke was Kylo's mentor and it ended in tragedy how can he be a good mentor for Rey? Will he even accept this responsability?

If he does he will be a less than perfect mentor, I bet, but perhaps he will have to accept the challenge because she does need a teacher and unless she is helped she could fall into the DS. I wonder what he will do because he looked so tormented in the last scene of TFA that he surely could use some help himself. His tormented eyes and the leaks suggesting he may have problems to control his anger and the Force make me wonder what really happened with his jedi padawans and what happened to Kylo.

I am like "Solosidecousin" as regards movies and acting, I usually trust what the actors make me feel, especially if they are as talented and serious about their work as Adam. He didn't seem a selfish guy looking for self-fulfillment to me, it was as if he thought he had to stay in the DS. He even said to Han he "knew what he had to do but didn't know if he had the strength to do it."

I didn't see a selfish self-serving guy there, this is not what the acting made me think. The story may go anywhere but he was not what a man who is where he thinks he must be because it is the easy path is like.

He is attracted to the Light and nearly "prays", begging his dead grandfather to help him resist the pull to the Light Side. He fears Snoke will find him out, this is how little he belongs in the DS. I may be wrong but I never felt he was there due to personal gain or that he'd chosen the easy way, but rather the opposite. My next questions are why he is with the FO if it makes him feel so miserable and what is this thing he thinks he has to do. If they set up these incognitas and in the end he just did everything for power and to rule the galaxy like any bad guy in a generic cartoon the word disappointment won't begin to express what I'll feel. Why suggesting there's more to him and his motivations than meets the eye if there is no mystery and he became absolutely power hungry at 23?

Or did he become Dark for revenge? Did he? Because his parents didn't tell him he was Vader's grandson and didn't have enough time for him? This sounds really petty and this is why many people don't respect the character and make fun of him saying he is an spoiled entitled emo brat.

Did he fall because of what happened at Luke's "Academy" that wasn't an academy? Did they mob him and try to kill him? Not even this seems enough to betray his family and kill his father IMO.

Whatever happened, the character Adam constructed didn't seem selfish or happy where he was and doing what he was doing. I hope they offer us a satisfying story.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by panki on Fri 6 May - 16:38

I'm thinking there is a prophecy involved....and Ben Solo thinks he has to do certain things to fulfill this prophecy for the good of the galaxy....that would explain his misery, conflict and crazy behavior. Has he taken on this burden because he feels only a Skywalker can fulfill this prophecy and it is his duty to do what must be done..... confused

I love the idea of Leia killing Snoke....we know she is able to use the dark side of the force..would love to see her use her force powers at some point in the ST.

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Reynak on Fri 6 May - 17:27

@panki wrote:I'm thinking there is a prophecy involved....and Ben Solo thinks he has to do certain things to fulfill this prophecy for the good of the galaxy....that would explain his misery, conflict and crazy behavior. Has he taken on this burden because he feels only a Skywalker can fulfill this prophecy and it is  his duty to do what must be done..... confused

I love the idea of Leia killing Snoke....we know she is able to use the dark side of the force..would love to see her use her force powers at some point in the ST.
@panki

Kylo probably has visions and he is so obsessed with "religion" (as Adam has said in interviews according to some posts here) he might think a Skywalker has to do something to either prevent this prophecy or to ensure it happens. If Luke can't or won't take this task on his hands Perhaps Kylo thinks he must do it himself. He is the kind of guy prone to believing in prophecies and trusting visions, just the opposite to Han. Your idea seems possible due to the kind of person Kylo is.

As for the possible fire that might have destroyed the jedi temple in which his cowl got seared, do you think it might explain why his clothes cover his body to such an exagerated extent? Do you think he is covering scars gained during a fight that day or that he has burn scarns?

I always thought his clothes were so concealing because of other reasons, as a sign of self denial or even fear or rejection of intimacy, but could he be hiding the scars of a fight or a fire?
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Search Your Feelings on Fri 6 May - 18:03

I would be pleasantly surprised
@panki wrote:I'm thinking there is a prophecy involved....and Ben Solo thinks he has to do certain things to fulfill this prophecy for the good of the galaxy....that would explain his misery, conflict and crazy behavior. Has he taken on this burden because he feels only a Skywalker can fulfill this prophecy and it is his duty to do what must be done..... confused

I love the idea of Leia killing Snoke....we know she is able to use the dark side of the force..would love to see her use her force powers at some point in the ST.
@panki

I would be pleasantly surprised if Carrie Fisher could pull that off but I'm not sure she can. I'd be happy though if Leia can finally shine with the force. They can do some clever editing or it can just be Force Powers but I think part of the reason why it's rumoured that she's put in a coma in Ep8 is so that she's still there but Carrie doesn't really have to act (and also Kylo needs a reason to start on his redemption if something happens to his mother Wink ).
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by guardienne on Fri 6 May - 18:28

@snufkin wrote:Also knowing several people who've been dragged off as kids by their hippie parents to live off of the grid and how well that goes, that's also what immediately comes to mind with this scenario. Like it's been said, some real Lord of the Flies type stuff could've gone down. And while half of me wants to write down notes of everything that's been discussed/possibly figured out, I also sort of fear falling down this type of rabbit hole:

@snufkin

this is beautiful! thanks so much for sharing!
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