What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Jakku on Fri 6 May - 19:43

@Search Your Feelings wrote:I would be pleasantly surprised
@panki wrote:I'm thinking there is a prophecy involved....and Ben Solo thinks he has to do certain things to fulfill this prophecy for the good of the galaxy....that would explain his misery, conflict and crazy behavior. Has he taken on this burden because he feels only a Skywalker can fulfill this prophecy and it is his duty to do what must be done..... confused

I love the idea of Leia killing Snoke....we know she is able to use the dark side of the force..would love to see her use her force powers at some point in the ST.
@panki

I would be pleasantly surprised if Carrie Fisher could pull that off but I'm not sure she can. I'd be happy though if Leia can finally shine with the force. They can do some clever editing or it can just be Force Powers but I think part of the reason why it's rumoured that she's put in a coma in Ep8 is so that she's still there but Carrie doesn't really have to act (and also Kylo needs a reason to start on his redemption if something happens to his mother Wink ).
@Search Your Feelings Yes, it would be great to see Leia finally do something with all those midichlorians. Laughing

But I'm equally unsure that Carrie could do it.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by panki on Fri 6 May - 19:43

@Search Your Feelings wrote:I would be pleasantly surprised
@panki wrote:I'm thinking there is a prophecy involved....and Ben Solo thinks he has to do certain things to fulfill this prophecy for the good of the galaxy....that would explain his misery, conflict and crazy behavior. Has he taken on this burden because he feels only a Skywalker can fulfill this prophecy and it is his duty to do what must be done..... confused

I love the idea of Leia killing Snoke....we know she is able to use the dark side of the force..would love to see her use her force powers at some point in the ST.
@panki

I would be pleasantly surprised if Carrie Fisher could pull that off but I'm not sure she can. I'd be happy though if Leia can finally shine with the force. They can do some clever editing or it can just be Force Powers but I think part of the reason why it's rumoured that she's put in a coma in Ep8 is so that she's still there but Carrie doesn't really have to act (and also Kylo needs a reason to start on his redemption if something happens to his mother Wink ).
@Search Your Feelings

You're right...maybe they also put the type of Leia we all want to see in Bloodline because they were not sure if Carrie Fisher could pull it off in a movie.... she is a good actress but that strong heroic type of role requires some great acting skills.

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Search Your Feelings on Fri 6 May - 20:40

@Jakku wrote:
@Search Your Feelings wrote:I would be pleasantly surprised
@panki wrote:I'm thinking there is a prophecy involved....and Ben Solo thinks he has to do certain things to fulfill this prophecy for the good of the galaxy....that would explain his misery, conflict and crazy behavior. Has he taken on this burden because he feels only a Skywalker can fulfill this prophecy and it is his duty to do what must be done..... confused

I love the idea of Leia killing Snoke....we know she is able to use the dark side of the force..would love to see her use her force powers at some point in the ST.
@panki

I would be pleasantly surprised if Carrie Fisher could pull that off but I'm not sure she can. I'd be happy though if Leia can finally shine with the force. They can do some clever editing or it can just be Force Powers but I think part of the reason why it's rumoured that she's put in a coma in Ep8 is so that she's still there but Carrie doesn't really have to act (and also Kylo needs a reason to start on his redemption if something happens to his mother Wink ).
@Search Your Feelings Yes, it would be great to see Leia finally do something with all those midichlorians.

But I'm equally unsure that Carrie could do it.
@Jakku

Oh no, the M word!! Laughing
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Search Your Feelings on Fri 6 May - 20:46

@panki wrote:
@Search Your Feelings wrote:I would be pleasantly surprised
@panki wrote:I'm thinking there is a prophecy involved....and Ben Solo thinks he has to do certain things to fulfill this prophecy for the good of the galaxy....that would explain his misery, conflict and crazy behavior. Has he taken on this burden because he feels only a Skywalker can fulfill this prophecy and it is  his duty to do what must be done..... confused

I love the idea of Leia killing Snoke....we know she is able to use the dark side of the force..would love to see her use her force powers at some point in the ST.
@panki

I would be pleasantly surprised if Carrie Fisher could pull that off but I'm not sure she can.  I'd be happy though if Leia can finally shine with the force.  They can do some clever editing or it can just be Force Powers but I think part of the reason why it's rumoured that she's put in a coma in Ep8 is so that she's still there but Carrie doesn't really have to act (and also Kylo needs a reason to start on his redemption if something happens to his mother Wink ).
@Search Your Feelings

You're right...maybe they also put the type of Leia we all want to see in Bloodline because they were not sure if Carrie Fisher could pull it off in a movie.... she is a good actress but that strong heroic type of role requires some great acting skills.
@panki

Agree, and just watching the way she walked (down the steps with Han inside the Resistance base) was a bit iffy to me as well.  She is a good actress and I thought she did a good job in TFA, I teared up at Han and Leia's scenes (with the music).  But as soon as she said "It was Snoke", I winced.  Although, can't really blame her though, Snoke is a ridiculous name and I hope the only reason tptb picked that name was for it to be reminiscent of a Snake in that (possible) Adam/Eve Grey Jedi theory. Laughing
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by panki on Fri 6 May - 21:43

@Search Your Feelings wrote:
@panki wrote:
@Search Your Feelings wrote:I would be pleasantly surprised
@panki wrote:I'm thinking there is a prophecy involved....and Ben Solo thinks he has to do certain things to fulfill this prophecy for the good of the galaxy....that would explain his misery, conflict and crazy behavior. Has he taken on this burden because he feels only a Skywalker can fulfill this prophecy and it is  his duty to do what must be done..... confused

I love the idea of Leia killing Snoke....we know she is able to use the dark side of the force..would love to see her use her force powers at some point in the ST.
@panki

I would be pleasantly surprised if Carrie Fisher could pull that off but I'm not sure she can.  I'd be happy though if Leia can finally shine with the force.  They can do some clever editing or it can just be Force Powers but I think part of the reason why it's rumoured that she's put in a coma in Ep8 is so that she's still there but Carrie doesn't really have to act (and also Kylo needs a reason to start on his redemption if something happens to his mother Wink ).
@Search Your Feelings

You're right...maybe they also put the type of Leia we all want to see in Bloodline because they were not sure if Carrie Fisher could pull it off in a movie.... she is a good actress but that strong heroic type of role requires some great acting skills.
@panki

Agree, and just watching the way she walked (down the steps with Han inside the Resistance base) was a bit iffy to me as well.  She is a good actress and I thought she did a good job in TFA, I teared up at Han and Leia's scenes (with the music).  But as soon as she said "It was Snoke", I winced.  Although, can't really blame her though, Snoke is a ridiculous name and I hope the only reason tptb picked that name was for it to be reminiscent of a Snake in that (possible) Adam/Eve Grey Jedi theory. Laughing
@Search Your Feelings

I reversed the name Snoke, did a google search and I got some funny results:

Ekons is a swedish generative plural of Eko which means "an echo" or "reflective sound" (the holograph?)

Ekans is an evil pokemon with powers like Wrap, Poison Sting and it preys on bird poke eggs... Razz



The urban dictionary defines Ekans as the at of being extremely cool.... lol.


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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by darkspellmaster on Fri 6 May - 22:10

In regard to the destruction of the group of students a few things come to mind.

Could it be that Ben set up a situation where luke left and then the KOR came in? What bugs me about this whole thing is that Anakin already had no issue killing off innocent kids prior to the whole situation with the Academy in the Old Republic. Ben though hesitates in killing his father, orders others to kill everyone. The only person that he outright kills on screen is Han and Lor. Given his reaction to killing his father could that have also happened with Lor, and does this mean that Ben probably has done little to no killing before these events?
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Search Your Feelings on Fri 6 May - 23:10

@panki wrote:
@Search Your Feelings wrote:
@panki wrote:
@Search Your Feelings wrote:I would be pleasantly surprised
@panki wrote:I'm thinking there is a prophecy involved....and Ben Solo thinks he has to do certain things to fulfill this prophecy for the good of the galaxy....that would explain his misery, conflict and crazy behavior. Has he taken on this burden because he feels only a Skywalker can fulfill this prophecy and it is  his duty to do what must be done..... confused

I love the idea of Leia killing Snoke....we know she is able to use the dark side of the force..would love to see her use her force powers at some point in the ST.
@panki

I would be pleasantly surprised if Carrie Fisher could pull that off but I'm not sure she can.  I'd be happy though if Leia can finally shine with the force.  They can do some clever editing or it can just be Force Powers but I think part of the reason why it's rumoured that she's put in a coma in Ep8 is so that she's still there but Carrie doesn't really have to act (and also Kylo needs a reason to start on his redemption if something happens to his mother Wink ).
@Search Your Feelings

You're right...maybe they also put the type of Leia we all want to see in Bloodline because they were not sure if Carrie Fisher could pull it off in a movie.... she is a good actress but that strong heroic type of role requires some great acting skills.
@panki

Agree, and just watching the way she walked (down the steps with Han inside the Resistance base) was a bit iffy to me as well.  She is a good actress and I thought she did a good job in TFA, I teared up at Han and Leia's scenes (with the music).  But as soon as she said "It was Snoke", I winced.  Although, can't really blame her though, Snoke is a ridiculous name and I hope the only reason tptb picked that name was for it to be reminiscent of a Snake in that (possible) Adam/Eve Grey Jedi theory. Laughing
@Search Your Feelings

I reversed the name Snoke, did a google search and I got some funny results:

Ekons is a swedish generative plural of Eko which means "an echo" or "reflective sound" (the holograph?)

Ekans is an evil pokemon with powers like Wrap, Poison Sting and it preys on bird poke eggs... Razz



The urban dictionary defines Ekans as the at of being extremely cool.... lol.

@panki

You always bring something new and exciting to the table, @panki !
LOL @ the Pokemon Snake - well, it certainly does fit! Maybe Snoke could be an anagram for something.
We do know it's definitely not the last description! Laughing
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by BastilaBey on Fri 6 May - 23:15

Chiming in to agree that Snoke is such a dumb name.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Search Your Feelings on Fri 6 May - 23:17

@darkspellmaster wrote:In regard to the destruction of the group of students a few things come to mind.

Could it be that Ben set up a situation where luke left and then the KOR came in? What bugs me about this whole thing is that Anakin already had no issue killing off innocent kids prior to the whole situation with the Academy in the Old Republic. Ben though hesitates in killing his father, orders others to kill everyone. The only person that he outright kills on screen is Han and Lor. Given his reaction to killing his father could that have also happened with Lor, and does this mean that Ben probably has done little to no killing before these events?
@darkspellmaster

Agree, there is something off about the whole thing. Kylo doesn't strike me as someone who killed a bunch of Jedi students and that backstory is so mysterious which is why I lean towards Kylo being framed for that or that he was defending himself or it's not as it seems. After the so called Jedi Killing, LSK and the village, Kylo is still fighting with the light, still tears up with his father, still confesses he's being torn apart. Others, like Anakin, would've already had red eyes or been less conflicted at this point.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Mana on Sat 7 May - 0:09

I get the impression that Luke and Ben have been moving around a lot...around the galaxy. From the sound of it, it looks like Luke might have been travelling the galaxy trying to learn the ways of the Jedi and brought his students along with him. Maybe there was no real 'academy' just like Pablo said....we'll just have to wait and see
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by snufkin on Sat 7 May - 0:11

@Mana wrote:I get the impression that Luke and Ben have been moving around a lot...around the galaxy. From the sound of it, it looks like Luke might have been travelling the galaxy trying to learn the ways of the Jedi and brought his students along with him. Maybe there was no real 'academy' just like Pablo said....we'll just have to wait and see
@Mana

Oh man, in that case the mental image I have from friends dragged around on school buses or off the grid following their hippie parents gets even stronger. That is, I don't really know anybody who had that type of experience during their formative years where they liked it. If anything, it sort of made them want to have an more ordered life as an adult because things were so unordered/chaotic for them as kids.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Mana on Sat 7 May - 0:16

@snufkin wrote:
@Mana wrote:I get the impression that Luke and Ben have been moving around a lot...around the galaxy. From the sound of it, it looks like Luke might have been travelling the galaxy trying to learn the ways of the Jedi and brought his students along with him. Maybe there was no real 'academy' just like Pablo said....we'll just have to wait and see
@Mana

Oh man, in that case the mental image I have from friends dragged around on school buses or off the grid following their hippie parents gets even stronger. That is, I don't really know anybody who had that type of experience during their formative years where they liked it. If anything, it sort of made them want to have an more ordered life as an adult because things were so unordered/chaotic for them as kids.
@snufkin

haha tell me about it. My father's a diplomat and me and my brother spent all of our childhoods travelling. I've never stayed more than 3 years in one country and have changed schools about 5 times. Imagine having to adjust to different cultures, languages and leaving behind friends all the time....
Whenever someone says they dream of travelling the world..I'm like No
I can imagine what sort of effect that might have had on Ben and also the other students.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 7 May - 0:19

@Search Your Feelings wrote:
@darkspellmaster wrote:In regard to the destruction of the group of students a few things come to mind.

Could it be that Ben set up a situation where luke left and then the KOR came in? What bugs me about this whole thing is that Anakin already had no issue killing off innocent kids prior to the whole situation with the Academy in the Old Republic. Ben though hesitates in killing his father, orders others to kill everyone. The only person that he outright kills on screen is Han and Lor. Given his reaction to killing his father could that have also happened with Lor, and does this mean that Ben probably has done little to no killing before these events?
@darkspellmaster

Agree, there is something off about the whole thing.  Kylo doesn't strike me as someone who killed a bunch of Jedi students and that backstory is so mysterious which is why I lean towards Kylo being framed for that or that he was defending himself or it's not as it seems.  After the so called Jedi Killing, LSK and the village, Kylo is still fighting with the light, still tears up with his father, still confesses he's being torn apart.  Others, like Anakin, would've already had red eyes or been less conflicted at this point.
@Search Your Feelings

Yes.  Kylo is not like a regular darksider.  When Anakin turned with the emperor he got an orgasmic look on his face.  Kylo gets weaker.  After having Snoke whispering in his ear since childhood and after having been in the FO at least a few years, he's struggling with the light.  He's avoided his father for years.  He doesn't want to kill his father.  He looks at Rey with awe when she catches the lightsaber and after she has defeated him.  He is not angry with her at all.  He's worried about her in the earthquake.  I am convinced there is some twist that is going to seriously change the ga's audience of him.

Welcome @darkspellmaster! There has been a lot of discussion about Kylo and his motivations on this forum since it was set up.  If you have the chance, you might find the "Is Kylo redeemable?" thread interesting as a good start to see how theories have evolved.

Also, and I don't say this to deter your voice at all, but I did want to give you the heads up that just about all of us believe that Luke has been eliminated as a father for Rey due to various information that has come out from JJ Abrams, Daisy Ridley and Pablo Hidalgo from Lucasfilm storygroup.  This information will be in the Episode VIII spoiler thread and in the Tweet/Instagram thread among others if you want to check it out for yourself.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 7 May - 0:23

@Mana wrote:I get the impression that Luke and Ben have been moving around a lot...around the galaxy. From the sound of it, it looks like Luke might have been travelling the galaxy trying to learn the ways of the Jedi and brought his students along with him. Maybe there was no real 'academy' just like Pablo said....we'll just have to wait and see
@Mana

This is the exact impression I got from reading Bloodline. The whole plot of Bloodline takes months and Leia doesn't hear back from Luke or Ben (who is with Luke) once. To me it seemed a little creepy. Luke also seems to have fallen away from public view a *very* long time back. Once character talks about how he has no influence with anyone but his acolytes, that he is more of a "myth" now than anything. So, definitely, no Luke version of Hogwarts IMO.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by snufkin on Sat 7 May - 0:25

@Mana wrote:
@snufkin wrote:
@Mana wrote:I get the impression that Luke and Ben have been moving around a lot...around the galaxy. From the sound of it, it looks like Luke might have been travelling the galaxy trying to learn the ways of the Jedi and brought his students along with him. Maybe there was no real 'academy' just like Pablo said....we'll just  have to wait and see
@Mana

Oh man, in that case the mental image I have from friends dragged around on school buses or off the grid following their hippie parents gets even stronger. That is, I don't really know anybody who had that type of experience during their formative years where they liked it. If anything, it sort of made them want to have an more ordered life as an adult because things were so unordered/chaotic for them as kids.
@snufkin

haha tell me about it. My father's a diplomat and me and my brother spent all of our childhoods travelling. I've never stayed more than 3 years in one country and have changed schools about 5 times. Imagine having to adjust to different cultures, languages and leaving behind friends all the time....
Whenever someone says they dream of travelling the world..I'm like No
I can imagine what sort of effect that might have had on Ben and also the other students.
@Mana

Aw man, I would sort of loved to have been in the world of diplomats, but at the same time I know what it's been like for kids whose parents were in the military. And a lot of the other friends I have with the whole off-the-grid, back to the Earth childhoods lived in some pretty unsettled, basic conditions. So it's not even like Luke had a charter school, he probably was dragging around a bunch of students on some bio-diesel fueled school bus and after awhile they probably just wanted to go have a shower and not have to listen to another talk about living off of the land.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 7 May - 0:37

@snufkin wrote:
@Mana wrote:I get the impression that Luke and Ben have been moving around a lot...around the galaxy. From the sound of it, it looks like Luke might have been travelling the galaxy trying to learn the ways of the Jedi and brought his students along with him. Maybe there was no real 'academy' just like Pablo said....we'll just  have to wait and see
@Mana

Oh man, in that case the mental image I have from friends dragged around on school buses or off the grid following their hippie parents gets even stronger. That is, I don't really know anybody who had that type of experience during their formative years where they liked it. If anything, it sort of made them want to have an more ordered life as an adult because things were so unordered/chaotic for them as kids.
@snufkin

You had mentioned before that you had friends who had to live "off the grid", and all I can say is your poor friends!  That kind of experience could really distort your vision of life and the world.

Also another Force Bond moment! I am thinking exactly this for Kylo.  Han seems like he's hardly ever home because he's constantly traveling with his sports teams.  Leia, at least in Bloodline, is hyper-focused on her ideals for the galaxy and chomping at the bit for dangerous situations.  And then I guess you have Luke wandering the galaxy looking for Jedi lore like some wild-haired, bearded St. John the Baptist in the desert with Ben having to follow him around ... when I think Ben might be the Alex P. Keaton (opposite kid) for this group, I have a feeling this chaos might not be to his liking.  (He might literally have just wanted to hang out and go to school on Hosnian Prime (government planet) for all we know).  But maybe he goes along with it because he believes and loves the three of them so much.  But then when they turn out to be liars, that tolerance goes away and suddenly, with the help of Snoke's whispering, the "order" of the FO seems attractive after years of probably camping out on the ground with Luke. (At least that's my imagery Laughing ).
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 7 May - 0:42

@Mana wrote:
@snufkin wrote:
@Mana wrote:I get the impression that Luke and Ben have been moving around a lot...around the galaxy. From the sound of it, it looks like Luke might have been travelling the galaxy trying to learn the ways of the Jedi and brought his students along with him. Maybe there was no real 'academy' just like Pablo said....we'll just have to wait and see
@Mana

Oh man, in that case the mental image I have from friends dragged around on school buses or off the grid following their hippie parents gets even stronger. That is, I don't really know anybody who had that type of experience during their formative years where they liked it. If anything, it sort of made them want to have an more ordered life as an adult because things were so unordered/chaotic for them as kids.
@snufkin

haha tell me about it. My father's a diplomat and me and my brother spent all of our childhoods travelling. I've never stayed more than 3 years in one country and have changed schools about 5 times. Imagine having to adjust to different cultures, languages and leaving behind friends all the time....
Whenever someone says they dream of travelling the world..I'm like No
I can imagine what sort of effect that might have had on Ben and also the other students.
@Mana

Oh my goodness! That's even harder than a kid whose Mom or Dad is in the army! Because even though they have to change schools and leave friends so much, at least they get to frequently live on bases where the "home" culture is somewhat uniform.

I imagine that that experience has made you a very adaptable person, but it sounds so difficult. :-(

Traveling the world is glamorous and great when you are an adult and *you* decide. Not when you're a kid. I hope you've found a place you really love now to live.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by darkspellmaster on Sat 7 May - 0:52

@Search Your Feelings wrote:
@darkspellmaster wrote:In regard to the destruction of the group of students a few things come to mind.

Could it be that Ben set up a situation where luke left and then the KOR came in? What bugs me about this whole thing is that Anakin already had no issue killing off innocent kids prior to the whole situation with the Academy in the Old Republic. Ben though hesitates in killing his father, orders others to kill everyone. The only person that he outright kills on screen is Han and Lor. Given his reaction to killing his father could that have also happened with Lor, and does this mean that Ben probably has done little to no killing before these events?
@darkspellmaster

Agree, there is something off about the whole thing.  Kylo doesn't strike me as someone who killed a bunch of Jedi students and that backstory is so mysterious which is why I lean towards Kylo being framed for that or that he was defending himself or it's not as it seems.  After the so called Jedi Killing, LSK and the village, Kylo is still fighting with the light, still tears up with his father, still confesses he's being torn apart.  Others, like Anakin, would've already had red eyes or been less conflicted at this point.

@Search your Feeling

No he doesn't does he. He's a lot like his mom and dad, sarcastic, stubborn, sure of himself at moments, but a straight up killer, I doubt it. I do think that he probably does have some death under his belt, as does all the OT3 and their cohorts (looking at you Lando and Chewie), but I get the feeling that things didn't help him.

I have this weird scenario in my head where Luke and Ben are away from the others looking into something, and he finds out via a news cast, or something equally as non personal as you can get, about his family's back story. He winds up confronting Luke and something happens where Luke goes after him and the KOR attack the students while those two are off. Luke can't find Ben, Snoke does, and pretty much he tells Ben that the KOR will serve him and they will be someone to trust and that they can be his family.

There was a book or a show, where something similar happened to a lead character and the character rejected their friends because they were covering up the truth, they joined the bad guys thinking that they won't lie to them, and in truth the bad guys are using the character. He finds out the hard way, and it causes a breakdown for him. I just wish I could remember what show it was.

And you're right. Even if Ben's not a Sith in the strictest of senses, he's had a village killed, Lor killed and Han, those eyes would be bright red or yellow by now. But they're very much Brown, like his mothers. Gonna have to wonder if there's something akin to Lily Potter's eyes going on with Ben the same way Snape saw Lily in Harry.

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Search Your Feelings wrote:
@darkspellmaster wrote:In regard to the destruction of the group of students a few things come to mind.

Could it be that Ben set up a situation where luke left and then the KOR came in? What bugs me about this whole thing is that Anakin already had no issue killing off innocent kids prior to the whole situation with the Academy in the Old Republic. Ben though hesitates in killing his father, orders others to kill everyone. The only person that he outright kills on screen is Han and Lor. Given his reaction to killing his father could that have also happened with Lor, and does this mean that Ben probably has done little to no killing before these events?
@darkspellmaster

Agree, there is something off about the whole thing. Kylo doesn't strike me as someone who killed a bunch of Jedi students and that backstory is so mysterious which is why I lean towards Kylo being framed for that or that he was defending himself or it's not as it seems. After the so called Jedi Killing, LSK and the village, Kylo is still fighting with the light, still tears up with his father, still confesses he's being torn apart. Others, like Anakin, would've already had red eyes or been less conflicted at this point.
@Search Your Feelings

Yes. Kylo is not like a regular darksider. When Anakin turned with the emperor he got an orgasmic look on his face. Kylo gets weaker. After having Snoke whispering in his ear since childhood and after having been in the FO at least a few years, he's struggling with the light. He's avoided his father for years. He doesn't want to kill his father. He looks at Rey with awe when she catches the lightsaber and after she has defeated him. He is not angry with her at all. He's worried about her in the earthquake. I am convinced there is some twist that is going to seriously change the ga's audience of him.

Welcome @darkspellmaster! There has been a lot of discussion about Kylo and his motivations on this forum since it was set up. If you have the chance, you might find the "Is Kylo redeemable?" thread interesting as a good start to see how theories have evolved.

Also, and I don't say this to deter your voice at all, but I did want to give you the heads up that just about all of us believe that Luke has been eliminated as a father for Rey due to various information that has come out from JJ Abrams, Daisy Ridley and Pablo Hidalgo from Lucasfilm storygroup. This information will be in the Episode VIII spoiler thread and in the Tweet/Instagram thread among others if you want to check it out for yourself.

Thanks for the welcome. Not to sure if he's worried about her in the earthquake, more like he's wondering what she's going to do at that moment because I think some of his senses were knocked back at that moment. I would hope that it does, maybe we might get more of a Winter Solider like comparison in the future.

Thank you for that information. I'll look at it. It's fine that you guys have your views. I just have my own reasons for hoping for at least someone to be a skywalker related to Luke. Right now I just view Ben as a Solo. While he's got his grandfather's blood in him, Leia saw himself as a Organa, thus I tend to think Bail as more of a direct Grandfather to Ben in that sense, and because, save for Ben right now, we have no other Solo's running around. I'm okay with however she plays out, my only hope is that she's not a Force Baby because to me that seems really really really dumb move given everything that happened regarding Anakin and that revelation and I think would make everyone pretty much throw up their hands and go, "WTF? Seriously, again?" So if she is, then, I hope, that they have a dang good story for that. alien
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 7 May - 2:00

@darkspellmaster wrote:
@Search Your Feelings wrote:
@darkspellmaster wrote:In regard to the destruction of the group of students a few things come to mind.

Could it be that Ben set up a situation where luke left and then the KOR came in? What bugs me about this whole thing is that Anakin already had no issue killing off innocent kids prior to the whole situation with the Academy in the Old Republic. Ben though hesitates in killing his father, orders others to kill everyone. The only person that he outright kills on screen is Han and Lor. Given his reaction to killing his father could that have also happened with Lor, and does this mean that Ben probably has done little to no killing before these events?
@darkspellmaster

Agree, there is something off about the whole thing.  Kylo doesn't strike me as someone who killed a bunch of Jedi students and that backstory is so mysterious which is why I lean towards Kylo being framed for that or that he was defending himself or it's not as it seems.  After the so called Jedi Killing, LSK and the village, Kylo is still fighting with the light, still tears up with his father, still confesses he's being torn apart.  Others, like Anakin, would've already had red eyes or been less conflicted at this point.

@Search your Feeling

No he doesn't does he. He's a lot like his mom and dad, sarcastic, stubborn, sure of himself at moments, but a straight up killer, I doubt it. I do think that he probably does have some death under his belt, as does all the OT3 and their cohorts (looking at you Lando and Chewie), but I get the feeling that things didn't help him.

I have this weird scenario in my head where Luke and Ben are away from the others looking into something, and he finds out via a news cast, or something equally as non personal as you can get, about his family's back story. He winds up confronting Luke and something happens where Luke goes after him and the KOR attack the students while those two are off. Luke can't find Ben, Snoke does, and pretty much he tells Ben that the KOR will serve him and they will be someone to trust and that they can be his family.

There was a book or a show, where something similar happened to a lead character and the character rejected their friends because they were covering up the truth, they joined the bad guys thinking that they won't lie to them, and in truth the bad guys are using the character. He finds out the hard way, and it causes a breakdown for him. I just wish I could remember what show it was.

And you're right. Even if Ben's not a Sith in the strictest of senses, he's had a village killed, Lor killed and Han, those eyes would be bright red or yellow by now. But they're very much Brown, like his mothers. Gonna have to wonder if there's something akin to Lily Potter's eyes going on with Ben the same way Snape saw Lily in Harry.

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Search Your Feelings wrote:
@darkspellmaster wrote:In regard to the destruction of the group of students a few things come to mind.

Could it be that Ben set up a situation where luke left and then the KOR came in? What bugs me about this whole thing is that Anakin already had no issue killing off innocent kids prior to the whole situation with the Academy in the Old Republic. Ben though hesitates in killing his father, orders others to kill everyone. The only person that he outright kills on screen is Han and Lor. Given his reaction to killing his father could that have also happened with Lor, and does this mean that Ben probably has done little to no killing before these events?
@darkspellmaster

Agree, there is something off about the whole thing. Kylo doesn't strike me as someone who killed a bunch of Jedi students and that backstory is so mysterious which is why I lean towards Kylo being framed for that or that he was defending himself or it's not as it seems. After the so called Jedi Killing, LSK and the village, Kylo is still fighting with the light, still tears up with his father, still confesses he's being torn apart. Others, like Anakin, would've already had red eyes or been less conflicted at this point.
@Search Your Feelings

Yes. Kylo is not like a regular darksider. When Anakin turned with the emperor he got an orgasmic look on his face. Kylo gets weaker. After having Snoke whispering in his ear since childhood and after having been in the FO at least a few years, he's struggling with the light. He's avoided his father for years. He doesn't want to kill his father. He looks at Rey with awe when she catches the lightsaber and after she has defeated him. He is not angry with her at all. He's worried about her in the earthquake. I am convinced there is some twist that is going to seriously change the ga's audience of him.

Welcome @darkspellmaster! There has been a lot of discussion about Kylo and his motivations on this forum since it was set up. If you have the chance, you might find the "Is Kylo redeemable?" thread interesting as a good start to see how theories have evolved.

Also, and I don't say this to deter your voice at all, but I did want to give you the heads up that just about all of us believe that Luke has been eliminated as a father for Rey due to various information that has come out from JJ Abrams, Daisy Ridley and Pablo Hidalgo from Lucasfilm storygroup. This information will be in the Episode VIII spoiler thread and in the Tweet/Instagram thread among others if you want to check it out for yourself.

Thanks for the welcome. Not to sure if he's worried about her in the earthquake, more like he's wondering what she's going to do at that moment because I think some of his senses were knocked back at that moment. I would hope that it does, maybe we might get more of a Winter Solider like comparison in the future.

Thank you for that information. I'll look at it. It's fine that you guys have your views. I just have my own reasons for hoping for at least someone to be a skywalker related to Luke. Right now I just view Ben as a Solo. While he's got his grandfather's blood in him, Leia saw himself as a Organa, thus I tend to think Bail as more of a direct Grandfather to Ben in that sense, and because, save for Ben right now, we have no other Solo's running around. I'm okay with however she plays out, my only hope is that she's not a Force Baby because to me that seems really really really dumb move given everything that happened regarding Anakin and that revelation and I think would make everyone pretty much throw up their hands and go, "WTF? Seriously, again?" So if she is, then, I hope, that they have a dang good story for that. alien
@darkspellmaster

I have not seen Winter Soldier. (I have a preschooler and that has seriously cut into my pop culture street cred over the past couple of years Laughing ) I know that @vaderito is a fan of that movie. What happens with the Winter Soldier that could apply to Kylo? It might be a while until I can see that movie, so I'm okay being spoiled, but please put any answer inside the spoiler box so others won't be spoiled.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by thejediskywalker on Sat 7 May - 3:03

I just did another rewatch and I think a clue to what happened at the academy lies with Kylo's interactions with Finn.

Where does Kylo see Finn? At a massacre.

What is Finn doing at said massacre? He's terrified and doesn't want to kill anyone.

What does Kylo do when he sees this (knowing through the force what Finn is feeling)? He looks at him and walks away.

That struck me as incredibly weird, and I feel like maybe Kylo was empathizing with Finn in that moment because he's been there himself. Given Kylo's arrogance and personality, you'd think seeing a disobedient soldier would set him off. Instead he's just like 'whatever', doesn't get mad or anything and I think he would have if he'd actually killed in cold blood at the academy massacre because he'd have seen Finn as weak in that case.

The anger only comes when Finn defects from the First Order, probably because Kylo wanted to escape at one time too, and for whatever reason didn't or couldn't. There's a hint to this in his interaction with Han when he says it's too late. So he's pissed at Finn for being stronger than him and running off with this girl who is kinda living Ben Solo's old life.

I'm still going with the theory that Ben was framed for the academy massacre in order to trap him with the First Order and turn him to the dark side. Tensions between Ben and Luke probably played into this as well as his struggles with the dark side, making it believable to outsiders that he did it. I still think abduction could have played into this, but more than likely was just pure manipulation on the part of Snoke.

And if Kylo was framed, it explains why he doesn't want the First Order to have the map. His "personal interests" might have something to do with coming clean to Luke. Part of the reason he took Rey is because he was the only one who could access that map in her brain. He wanted it for himself. Snoke wants to kill Luke, Kylo doesn't. Gotta be a reason for that.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by snufkin on Sat 7 May - 4:28

@thejediskywalker - that was my interpretation, that he noticed what was going on with Finn because that's what happened to him. Be interesting to see if it pans out.

@SoloSideCousin - I've known several people with those type of upbringings and while it sounds far more interesting on the outside, it's definitely stressful on kids, who typically want/need stability.

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 7 May - 5:31

@thejediskywalker wrote:I just did another rewatch and I think a clue to what happened at the academy lies with Kylo's interactions with Finn.

Where does Kylo see Finn? At a massacre.

What is Finn doing at said massacre? He's terrified and doesn't want to kill anyone.

What does Kylo do when he sees this (knowing through the force what Finn is feeling)? He looks at him and walks away.

That struck me as incredibly weird, and I feel like maybe Kylo was empathizing with Finn in that moment because he's been there himself. Given Kylo's arrogance and personality, you'd think seeing a disobedient soldier would set him off. Instead he's just like 'whatever', doesn't get mad or anything and I think he would have if he'd actually killed in cold blood at the academy massacre because he'd have seen Finn as weak in that case.

The anger only comes when Finn defects from the First Order, probably because Kylo wanted to escape at one time too, and for whatever reason didn't or couldn't. There's a hint to this in his interaction with Han when he says it's too late. So he's pissed at Finn for being stronger than him and running off with this girl who is kinda living Ben Solo's old life.

I'm still going with the theory that Ben was framed for the academy massacre in order to trap him with the First Order and turn him to the dark side. Tensions between Ben and Luke probably played into this as well as his struggles with the dark side, making it believable to outsiders that he did it. I still think abduction could have played into this, but more than likely was just pure manipulation on the part of Snoke.

And if Kylo was framed, it explains why he doesn't want the First Order to have the map. His "personal interests" might have something to do with coming clean to Luke. Part of the reason he took Rey is because he was the only one who could access that map in her brain. He wanted it for himself. Snoke wants to kill Luke, Kylo doesn't. Gotta be a reason for that.
@thejediskywalker

I love this! It would tie in so perfectly why he let Finn go. What if he was in a position to kill people (with KoR) and he didn't do it ... but then was punished later by KoR/Snoke with torture for being compassionate and/or weak and that process got him deeper into the dark side. Or maybe he held on for a while, but then when he found out his parents believed what he did (because he had had issues with darkness and/or Luke in the past) he capitulated into despair and then Snoke had him right where he wanted him ... and maybe that's when he started to really turn on his identity and start the process into becoming Kylo Ren. Maybe it's around this time that he was introduced to the Vader mask and he clung to that like crazy because maybe to him Vader was the only family who would accept him (and speak to him). So when he saw Finn he actually felt sorry for him and let him go?

Also, maybe LST was there at that first incident, and maybe he didn't help him or vouch for him, so maybe when LST throws his family in his face that just inflames him like crazy because he felt really abandoned and went through so much hell since that abandonment. So he's literally like "F*** you LST and f*** that family who betrayed me!" and takes out LST.

I agree about the anger about Finn defecting from the FO, when Kylo feels he is completely ensnared in it now, while this guy, who was cut a break (by Kylo) and didn't suffer for not killing people like Kylo was, just takes that gift (Kylo would think it as a gift) for granted and shoots up his fellow soldiers and steals Kylo's life. To make matters worse, Han accepts Finn, when under this scenario Han didn't accept or didn't fight for Kylo.

As for the map, ITA, Kylo doesn't want to kill Luke. He wants to find Luke. He needs something from Luke. Maybe it's to complete the mysterious "mission" from Vader and/or have a shot to escape. Rey's having the map in her head might be a gift he never expected. It would be a way that he could find the way to Luke without having the FO know.

I am open to the "framed" possibility because it would actually make it more tragic to me that he fell after doing the right thing because people believed the worst of him and/or because he was worn down/seduced by the darkness over time because his villain status that we find him in (killing LST, ordering the village eliminated, killing Han) didn't really have to happen in the way it had to happen with selfish Anakin, but instead happened through the process of his identity and humanity as Ben Solo being suppressed and stripped away. That option would also turn things on their head, as SW likes to do.

That being said, Pablo did say Han and Leia broke up when their son became a murderer. Now maybe that's just the story they were told. However, I don't want to get my hopes up too much for that, so at the moment I guess I favor the "Fellow padawans fight/attack him over the Vader news, then he fights back and is initially totally justified, but then his fury and anger and hurt fuel his power and then gets high on the dark side and just takes too many people out and then is completely disgusted with himself, like someone out of a Greek tragedy and falls to Snoke in despair. But I do like your theory about Finn ... Kylo's refusal to kill might have actually occurred in a separate incident ... maybe in a first "test case" with the KoR and he couldn't do it. Maybe that's why Snoke doesn't trust him. Maybe that's why Snoke wants him to kill Han ... to prove he has the stomach for the darkness. LST and the village might not have been enough because maybe Kylo could consider them straight up war enemies because LST and his people had screwed Kylo in the past? .... I don't know ... but it would be very cool if they addressed why he let Finn go.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Reynak on Sat 7 May - 9:54

[quote="Darth Dingbat"]But there needs to be more to the story, if only to explain why it happened.[/h
@Darth Dingbat

Yes, and if everything is exactly like it seems there is no story to tell. Why did they make Kylo appear so mysterious ( and the same can be said about Luke and Snoke) if he is just the evil killer he seemed at the beginning of the movie?

The more we see of him, both in the literal ( unmasking and showing his human face) and figurative sense ( we see his humanity, feelings, pain, the fact that he is attracted to the Light, etc) , the more the real man distances himself from the "monster in a mask" that we see in the first half of the movie.

His scene with Vader's mask alone suggests he is not the "monster" he seems in the first scene in the village. He has no one to open up to and he spills his soul to a dead person. This is made in movies quite often ( although they often speak to a tombstone instead of a mask) to give the audience information about a character's feelings and/or motivations without making him/her share them with other characters. Kylo appears hurt and anguished, nothing like the cold-blooded killer he seemed in the village. He also has mysterious motivations and a mission he feels obligued to fulfill, but he fears Snoke may find him out because the SL already senses a pull to the Light in Kylo that is happening AGAIN. Kylo is far from being what he seems or what most people think of him. Only Leia still believes there is hope for him and she is FS, she has more reasons to know better and be right than anyone else.  

He opens up to Ray, a stranger, to some extent, in an interrogation scene where she extracts as much information from him (if not more) as he gets from her. He says her "friends" are thieves, traitors and murderers. One of them is his own father, does he feel betrayed by him? He feels abandoned for sure. When his father comes for him at last he says it is too late, which is such a sad thing to say to a parent.  Sad

But kylo often says things to others that may be about himself just as much , like telling Rey she is so lonely, so afraid to leave, just like Kylo himself. He says her friends are traitors, murderers and thieves. Is he projecting to some extent as well?

In Bloodlines ge get to know he had friends as a kid, that he was a happy child but now he is a miserable isolated young man with no frieds. What made him change? If he turned at 23 maybe he still was a youth with friends, perhaps he was reasonably content. What if the other students were his friends and became thieves (stealing his lightsaber), traitors and murderers? Did they turn on Luke and Kylo when they found out they were Vader's blood? Did they try to kill anyone? Did they try to kill Kylo? Who died there?

Why does Kylo think Ben was week? Because he trusted and was betrayed? Why does he say Han was weak and foolish? He is obviously projecting again but perhaps he thinks Luke and/or Leia deceived not only Kylo but also Han, which makes them both father and son equally foolish.

There's so much potential there story-wise that I doubt the hints are not there or are mere coincidences. I don't think they are and there's much more to Ben and what happened to him and Luke, which precipitated his fall after so many years resisting Snoke.


Last edited by Reynak on Sat 7 May - 21:53; edited 1 time in total
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Reynak on Sat 7 May - 10:51

"@thejediskywalker" , "@SoloSideCousin", I love you ideas in the posts above but there is a detail that doesn't add up, IMO.

"As for the map, ITA, Kylo doesn't want to kill Luke. He wants to find Luke. He needs something from Luke. Maybe it's to complete the mysterious "mission" from Vader and/or have a shot to escape. Rey's having the map in her head might be a gift he never expected. It would be a way that he could find the way to Luke without having the FO know."

He wants to find Luke and abducting Ray should give him access to the map, I agree, but bringing her to SKB is not the right move to keep the map away from Snoke's clutch. Everyone ( the ST, Hux, Snoke...) knows he has Ray and that the girl has seen the map. Kylo himself begs Snoke to help him get the map from her. If he doesn't Snoke to find Luke he made a poor job at keeping his location unknown.

Also, Kylo never gets the droid. We have often believed he doesn't care because Rey is too important for him to care about BB8, but what if he let him go on purpose so that the Resistance could find Luke? It has just occurred to me this is a possibility. I don't know why he let BB8 go when the Resistance could get him and the map. We don't really know what Kylo is about, not even what Snoke is about, because Snoke doesn't want the Resistance to get the map and seems more interested in preventing this than finding the map. Kylo, on the other hand wants the map and the girl but seems not to care if the map is found by the Resistance, perhaps he even wants them to find it.

Another thing, why did LST find the map at the time TFA takes place and not before? Perhaps because it's due time now for Luke's location to be known? Is Luke ready at last? Are LST's intentions clear and loyal or is he one of the friends that are thieves and traitors?
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by darkspellmaster on Sat 7 May - 18:03

@SoloSideCousin wrote:

I have not seen Winter Soldier. (I have a preschooler and that has seriously cut into my pop culture street cred over the past couple of years Laughing ) I know that @vaderito is a fan of that movie. What happens with the Winter Soldier that could apply to Kylo? It might be a while until I can see that movie, so I'm okay being spoiled, but please put any answer inside the spoiler box so others won't be spoiled.
@SoloSideCousin ]

Spoiler:
Bucky Barns was taken in by Hydra and brainwashed into becoming an assassin for them (In the comics it was Russia). Anyway after being freed by Cap and the others he's been trying to make up for his past crimes, by not only for a while taking over as Captain America, but also as a sort of mentor to the new Patriot character in the comics. What might apply is the fact that Bucky still remembers every kill that he did, and while he feels that he was brainwashed, he still wants to make amends for his actions and save the lives of people to make up for every kill that he committed.

In the new movie he outright lets himself be put back to sleep till he can get the brainwashing out of his mind. I'm wondering if Ben would need to do something like, or a mind wipe like Revan to get rid of the influence of Snoke.
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