What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by panki on Wed 11 May - 2:25

snufkin wrote:
SoloSideCousin wrote:
panki wrote:
Kessel89 wrote:I looked in the Visual Dictionary and its description of Kylo's cowl says, "Cowl is a remnant from Ren's early training.

It also describes his cape (there's a distinction made between the cowl and cape, but they appear to be the same piece of fabric/material), it says, "Cape singed from multiple battles."
@Kessel89

Between the cowl and cape singed from battles and the ""Trials on Tatooine" game, I'm beginning to think Luke ran something on the lines of Thunderdome.... Shocked

But I've also wondered why Kylo's cape and cowl are black if it is from his days as a jedi apprentice....and even Luke's hooded cloak in Rey's vision was black.....since the colour of clothes have significance in SW, were they already using the dark side of the force?
@panki

@panki

LOL!!! Thunderdome!!!! This is awesome!! I am still laughing right now! But seriously, it really sounds like something was going awry with Ole Luke. :-)

@SoloSideCousin

Lord of the Flies style charter school is what it's starting to sound like. Somebody tell those parents to use their vouchers somewhere else!
@snufkin

I''m wondering....first a burning temple....now rumors of hutslaying..... not saying Luke is a bad character (he is one of my favourite) but I think all that responsibility of being the last jedi in the galaxy is getting to him and he has messed up somewhere when teaching the new generation of force sensitives.

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by snufkin on Wed 11 May - 2:33

panki wrote:
snufkin wrote:
SoloSideCousin wrote:
panki wrote:
Kessel89 wrote:I looked in the Visual Dictionary and its description of Kylo's cowl says, "Cowl is a remnant from Ren's early training.

It also describes his cape (there's a distinction made between the cowl and cape, but they appear to be the same piece of fabric/material), it says, "Cape singed from multiple battles."
@Kessel89

Between the cowl and cape singed from battles and the ""Trials on Tatooine" game, I'm beginning to think Luke ran something on the lines of Thunderdome.... Shocked

But I've also wondered why Kylo's cape and cowl are black if it is from his days as a jedi apprentice....and even Luke's hooded cloak in Rey's vision was black.....since the colour of clothes have significance in SW, were they already using the dark side of the force?
@panki

@panki

LOL!!! Thunderdome!!!! This is awesome!! I am still laughing right now! But seriously, it really sounds like something was going awry with Ole Luke. :-)

@SoloSideCousin

Lord of the Flies style charter school is what it's starting to sound like. Somebody tell those parents to use their vouchers somewhere else!
@snufkin

I''m wondering....first a burning temple....now rumors of hutslaying..... not saying Luke is a bad character (he is one of my favourite) but I think all that responsibility of being the last jedi in the galaxy is getting to him and he has messed up somewhere when teaching the new generation of force sensitives.
@panki

Going the morally ambiguous route in that situation would again, make for something way more complicated and interesting narrative. Or at least if my suspicion that there's could be a little bit of the Tempest and Rey being the Miranda to his Prospero, Prospero did get exiled in part for being too powerful. The original plan was for Luke to go Ronin because he'd strayed too far over onto the Darkside and it messed with his head, hopefully they're going that direction if it already restored Han & Leia to their more morally complex characterizations.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by panki on Wed 11 May - 2:44

snufkin wrote:
panki wrote:
snufkin wrote:
SoloSideCousin wrote:
panki wrote:
Kessel89 wrote:I looked in the Visual Dictionary and its description of Kylo's cowl says, "Cowl is a remnant from Ren's early training.

It also describes his cape (there's a distinction made between the cowl and cape, but they appear to be the same piece of fabric/material), it says, "Cape singed from multiple battles."
@Kessel89

Between the cowl and cape singed from battles and the ""Trials on Tatooine" game, I'm beginning to think Luke ran something on the lines of Thunderdome.... Shocked

But I've also wondered why Kylo's cape and cowl are black if it is from his days as a jedi apprentice....and even Luke's hooded cloak in Rey's vision was black.....since the colour of clothes have significance in SW, were they already using the dark side of the force?
@panki

@panki

LOL!!! Thunderdome!!!! This is awesome!! I am still laughing right now! But seriously, it really sounds like something was going awry with Ole Luke. :-)

@SoloSideCousin

Lord of the Flies style charter school is what it's starting to sound like. Somebody tell those parents to use their vouchers somewhere else!
@snufkin

I''m wondering....first a burning temple....now rumors of hutslaying..... not saying Luke is a bad character (he is one of my favourite) but I think all that responsibility of being the last jedi in the galaxy is getting to him and he has messed up somewhere when teaching the new generation of force sensitives.
@panki

Going the morally ambiguous route in that situation would again, make for something way more complicated and interesting narrative. Or at least if my suspicion that there's could be a little bit of the Tempest and Rey being the Miranda to his Prospero, Prospero did get exiled in part for being too powerful. The original plan was for Luke to go Ronin because he'd strayed too far over onto the Darkside and it messed with his head, hopefully they're going that direction if it already restored Han & Leia to their more morally complex characterizations.
@snufkin

Love the analogy to the Tempest.....wouldn't mind seeing something like this in the sequel.... I remember reading in one of the issues of Star Wars Insider that for the OT, particularly ANH, everything was black and white....and how they plan to explore complex narratives where the sides are unclear in the ST....a morally ambiguous route could be a step in that direction.

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by snufkin on Wed 11 May - 3:44

@panki - the ending of Rey and Luke on that island immediately made me think of the Tempest. He's Prospero, powerful magician exiled by the power plays of his enemies and she's Miranda, even if she's not his literal daughter. KR showing up is maybe a hybrid of both Caliban (Prospero was Master to this Monster) and Ferdinand (her suitor). Miranda has rejected Caliban's blatantly sexual advances because he's a monster (sound familiar?) but is wooed by the more romantic Ferdinand, who is a prince (again, sound famliar?). Snoke and the First Order are Antonio and the plotting court of Milan who forced Prospero into exile. Prospero also resolves to "drown his books" because the magic he's been practicing is too powerful.

Like I've said before, the whole magic as metaphor is in my head because of my love for The Prestige and Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell. Both play on similar themes and I can't not think somebody involved in this production also doesn't love those books/films.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Lily Snape on Mon 16 May - 3:21

I think Kylo's cowl could be singed from battles he's had since he joined the FO, though.

Has anyone thrown out the idea that maybe Kylo and classmates went Dark and were going to join the FO and Snoke, attacked Luke at Snoke's command, Luke killed most of them in self-defense (and to protect people from what they had become) and nearly went Dark in the process, and then couldn't kill his own nephew? That would explain the "Even you, Master of the Knights of Ren, have never faced such a test" comment about killing Han-- if Kylo had not killed his classmates, and if he hadn't managed to kill his uncle. It would also explain Luke's exile and search for the earliest Jedi origins, if things went so badly wrong. I'm sure it's been suggested before, but there you go. Smile
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Search Your Feelings on Mon 16 May - 5:50

Lily Snape wrote:I think Kylo's cowl could be singed from battles he's had since he joined the FO, though.

Has anyone thrown out the idea that maybe Kylo and classmates went Dark and were going to join the FO and Snoke, attacked Luke at Snoke's command, Luke killed most of them in self-defense (and to protect people from what they had become) and nearly went Dark in the process, and then couldn't kill his own nephew? That would explain the "Even you, Master of the Knights of Ren, have never faced such a test" comment about killing Han-- if Kylo had not killed his classmates, and if he hadn't managed to kill his uncle. It would also explain Luke's exile and search for the earliest Jedi origins, if things went so badly wrong. I'm sure it's been suggested before, but there you go. Smile
@Lily Snape

I entertained this thought as well...that the Padawans and Kylo were going to switch to the darkside and Luke stopped them from attacking other students and the temple. Luke dueled Kylo and Kylo barely escaped with his life to Snoke. Maybe it's why Kylo wants to find Luke, now that he has trained under Snoke, and wants to reduel him to prove himself. Another intriguing narrative they can follow other than Kylo defending himself against Padawans angry at his revealed lineage, or that he was set up.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Rimfaxe96 on Mon 16 May - 8:56

Perhaps Luke adopted "playing with dynamite" as a new hobby? Wink Next to the FO arriving and opening fire at them I can't really imagine what else could make that hut explode. Then again, Disney has shown to be much more creative about force powers than in the old trilogies, where the worst that was destroyed were throats by Vader's hand.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Socialnole on Mon 16 May - 10:45

[quote="Search Your Feelings"]
Lily Snape wrote:I think Kylo's cowl could be singed from battles he's had since he joined the FO, though.

Has anyone thrown out the idea that maybe Kylo and classmates went Dark and were going to join the FO and Snoke, attacked Luke at Snoke's command, Luke killed most of them in self-defense (and to protect people from what they had become) and nearly went Dark in the process, and then couldn't kill his own nephew? That would explain the "Even you, Master of the Knights of Ren, have never faced such a test" comment about killing Han-- if Kylo had not killed his classmates, and if he hadn't managed to kill his uncle. It would also explain Luke's exile and search for the earliest Jedi origins, if things went so badly wrong. I'm sure it's been suggested before, but there you go. Smile
@Lily Snape

Just watched the movie again and read a part of the Visual Dictionary. Han says one boy an apprentice "destroyed" it all. The visual dictionary says he betrayed his fellow students and Master Luke and is responsible for their "destruction". It doesn't actually say he killed anyone at the "new academy". If you're going by the Force Vision I still think that the scene with the Knights of Ren is in the future.

Similar to how everyone thought Sirius Black betrayed Harry's parents or Snape murdered Dumbledore without all the details?

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by guardienne on Tue 17 May - 1:49

guardienne wrote:is it perhaps that luke can't get it up??!!

It's a really interesting theory.

Also kinda belongs here... but i'm very behind on new developments.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Tue 24 May - 10:00

So, I know that we've kind of thrown out this theory in passing, but I think it's been a while since it was discussed, and I want to bump it back up as a possibility. When I recently (finally) finished Bloodline, there was a passage near the end where Leia is reflecting, and it really grabbed me:

Bloodline excerpt wrote:She realized, then, something that she had never fully understood before. She'd always wondered what had led her father to the dark side, to become Darth Vader. She'd imagined it came from ambition, greed, or some other venal weakness. Never had she considered that the turn might begin in a better place, out of the desire to save someone or avenge a great wrong. Even if it led to evil, that first impulse might have been born of loyalty, a sense of justice, or even love.

With Snoke supposedly in Ben's ear since he was a small child, and then Ben seemingly suddenly turning around the age of 23 (as we now know), I think that lends weight to the theory that for Ben, "going dark" was possibly a somewhat impulsive decision that he made in order to save or protect someone.

Perhaps Ben had had some sort of dream or premonition and was given an Anakin-like choice to go dark to prevent that thing from happening? Perhaps Snoke was able to leverage the Vader reveal/lineage to drive that decision?
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by ReyofLightSide on Tue 24 May - 10:20

guardienne wrote:
guardienne wrote:is it perhaps that luke can't get it up??!!

It's a really interesting theory.

Also kinda belongs here... but i'm very behind on new developments.
@guardienne

It could also explain why Luke is looking for the first Jedi Temple, hoping to reverse it
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Tue 24 May - 13:34

ISeeAnIsland wrote:So, I know that we've kind of thrown out this theory in passing, but I think it's been a while since it was discussed, and I want to bump it back up as a possibility. When I recently (finally) finished Bloodline, there was a passage near the end where Leia is reflecting, and it really grabbed me:

Bloodline excerpt wrote:She realized, then, something that she had never fully understood before. She'd always wondered what had led her father to the dark side, to become Darth Vader. She'd imagined it came from ambition, greed, or some other venal weakness. Never had she considered that the turn might begin in a better place, out of the desire to save someone or avenge a great wrong. Even if it led to evil, that first impulse might have been born of loyalty, a sense of justice, or even love.

With Snoke supposedly in Ben's ear since he was a small child, and then Ben seemingly suddenly turning around the age of 23 (as we now know), I think that lends weight to the theory that for Ben, "going dark" was possibly a somewhat impulsive decision that he made in order to save or protect someone.

Perhaps Ben had had some sort of dream or premonition and was given an Anakin-like choice to go dark to prevent that thing from happening? Perhaps Snoke was able to leverage the Vader reveal/lineage to drive that decision?
@ISeeAnIsland

I definitely think you are on to something here. I have a feeling that Ben may have had some success keeping Snoke out for chunks of time, but when it came out that his family was lying to him, whatever mental gates he had erected just shattered with everything else. I think at that point Snoke maybe started to look like a truthteller. In addition, because Ben was mentally weak, that would be the perfect time to show Ben "a vision" from "Vader." (I am actually open to it being the real, but maybe corrupted Anakin/Vader ghost). I have always thought that "Vader" showed Ben something really terrible ... like some kind of cataclysm that only Ben could prevent, but that maybe in that vision Ben was cloaked in darkness, like he needed the dark to achieve ... or if the vision or prophecy was that only he could kill Snoke, before Snoke destroys the galaxy or whatever, Ben needs to know the darkness and to get to Snoke to make that happen. If Snoke made killing Han a precondition for getting close to him, Ben might have had that "Sophie's Choice" of Father vs. Galaxy? But maybe he occasionally doubts the vision and/or hates what he is in the darkness, but now he thinks it is too late, that he made an impulsive decision and jumped into this quest when he wasn't in the right frame of mind, and that's why he's practically begging Vader to "Show Me!" I also wonder if he has had visions of a partner in this quest ... and maybe he knows that partner's a woman? Maybe he saw his "partner" catch the lightsaber in a vision?

Also, just being a Skywalker makes it really likely that he rushed a decision too, and got totally in over his head. See Anakin and Luke. Very Happy
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by guardienne on Wed 25 May - 2:29

ReyofLightSide wrote:
guardienne wrote:
guardienne wrote:is it perhaps that luke can't get it up??!!

It's a really interesting theory.

Also kinda belongs here... but i'm very behind on new developments.
@guardienne

It could also explain why Luke is looking for the first Jedi Temple, hoping to reverse it
@ReyofLightSide

yes i do think that he could have ruined the force for everyone (is that even possible?) and luke then goes away to find otu what to do?

i think that luke's absence, i mean it's a macguffin and all, but generally, why is he so important to everything and why did he f*** off and leave everything? is he not useful as he is? like, force or no force?

luke is the biggest question in this.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed 25 May - 3:20

SoloSideCousin wrote:
ISeeAnIsland wrote:So, I know that we've kind of thrown out this theory in passing, but I think it's been a while since it was discussed, and I want to bump it back up as a possibility. When I recently (finally) finished Bloodline, there was a passage near the end where Leia is reflecting, and it really grabbed me:

Bloodline excerpt wrote:She realized, then, something that she had never fully understood before. She'd always wondered what had led her father to the dark side, to become Darth Vader. She'd imagined it came from ambition, greed, or some other venal weakness. Never had she considered that the turn might begin in a better place, out of the desire to save someone or avenge a great wrong. Even if it led to evil, that first impulse might have been born of loyalty, a sense of justice, or even love.

With Snoke supposedly in Ben's ear since he was a small child, and then Ben seemingly suddenly turning around the age of 23 (as we now know), I think that lends weight to the theory that for Ben, "going dark" was possibly a somewhat impulsive decision that he made in order to save or protect someone.

Perhaps Ben had had some sort of dream or premonition and was given an Anakin-like choice to go dark to prevent that thing from happening? Perhaps Snoke was able to leverage the Vader reveal/lineage to drive that decision?
@ISeeAnIsland

I definitely think you are on to something here. I have a feeling that Ben may have had some success keeping Snoke out for chunks of time, but when it came out that his family was lying to him, whatever mental gates he had erected just shattered with everything else. I think at that point Snoke maybe started to look like a truthteller. In addition, because Ben was mentally weak, that would be the perfect time to show Ben "a vision" from "Vader." (I am actually open to it being the real, but maybe corrupted Anakin/Vader ghost). I have always thought that "Vader" showed Ben something really terrible ... like some kind of cataclysm that only Ben could prevent, but that maybe in that vision Ben was cloaked in darkness, like he needed the dark to achieve ... or if the vision or prophecy was that only he could kill Snoke, before Snoke destroys the galaxy or whatever, Ben needs to know the darkness and to get to Snoke to make that happen. If Snoke made killing Han a precondition for getting close to him, Ben might have had that "Sophie's Choice" of Father vs. Galaxy? But maybe he occasionally doubts the vision and/or hates what he is in the darkness, but now he thinks it is too late, that he made an impulsive decision and jumped into this quest when he wasn't in the right frame of mind, and that's why he's practically begging Vader to "Show Me!" I also wonder if he has had visions of a partner in this quest ... and maybe he knows that partner's a woman? Maybe he saw his "partner" catch the lightsaber in a vision?

Also, just being a Skywalker makes it really likely that he rushed a decision too, and got totally in over his head. See Anakin and Luke. Very Happy
@SoloSideCousin

Yeah, to me, it just seems suspect that he apparently was able to keep Snoke out enough for years for his family to not suspect that there was much "wrong" (although there must have been something that prompted Leia to send Ben to Luke).

I can't see his turning NOT being related to the Vader reveal in Bloodline, but I also think that there has to be more to it, than that. Being a Skywalker and all, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he made the decision to turn as a way to save Leia from some sort of threat.

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by snufkin on Sat 6 May - 5:52

Just realized I've posted on this topic recently on a couple of threads given the new fodder for speculation thanks to the teaser, so bumping it up. My best guess is that yes, Ben is responsible for the deaths of Luke's other followers and destroyed whatever Luke's post RotJ life work had been. However I'd also guess that:

1) While Ben's defection to the DS was abetted by Snoke and he made the conscious choice to do it, it wasn't 100% voluntary. That it was going to be a "he will join us or die" type situation which was always threatened in the OT.

2) Ben's defection wasn't helped by issues within the family, including feeling rejected by his parents because of the decision to send him to Luke and the eventual Vader reveal. He may have been taken by force initially, but worn down between disillusionment with his family/society/spiritual order and any 'extreme renditions' used by Snoke.

3) Bloodline shows the fallout on Leia's side from the Vader paternity reveal, including people she trusted and thought were friends becameangry and turned on her. Even just in depicting how quickly people turned on her despite her lifelong service as a leader (and the legacies of both her biological mother and adopted father) and came close to threatening her with danger. Also showed that Luke himself wasn't immune to this change of fortunes and public perception.

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sat 6 May - 6:14

snufkin wrote:Just realized I've posted on this topic recently on a couple of threads given the new fodder for speculation thanks to the teaser, so bumping it up. My best guess is that yes, Ben is responsible for the deaths of Luke's other followers and destroyed whatever Luke's post RotJ life work had been. However I'd also guess that:

1) While Ben's defection to the DS was abetted by Snoke and he made the conscious choice to do it, it wasn't 100% voluntary. That it was going to be a "he will join us or die" type situation which was always threatened in the OT.

2) Ben's defection wasn't helped by issues within the family, including feeling rejected by his parents because of the decision to send him to Luke and the eventual Vader reveal. He may have been taken by force initially, but worn down between disillusionment with his family/society/spiritual order and any 'extreme renditions' used by Snoke.

3) Bloodline shows the fallout on Leia's side from the Vader paternity reveal, including people she trusted and thought were friends becameangry and turned on her. Even just in depicting how quickly people turned on her despite her lifelong service as a leader (and the legacies of both her biological mother and adopted father) and came close to threatening her with danger. Also showed that Luke himself wasn't immune to this change of fortunes and public perception.

@snufkin

I can't believe that this thread had gone almost a year without any posts...especially given how much speculating we do on this topic.

I agree with you on all of this. I'm pretty confident that Ben was the one who killed the padawans, but given that he's still torn/conflicted 5-6 years later, I can't exactly see what he did as a gleeful murdering spree.

Reading back through these posts, I do wonder if Ben killed the padawans to protect Luke in some way (especially if Ben had been with Luke for a long time, and Luke had been more of a father figure to him than Han had).

It would be a hugely tragic situation if Luke and Ben had had some ideological split, but then Ben found out about a plot of the padawans to turn against Luke (after the Vader reveal), and so Ben killed them to save Luke. Or perhaps Snoke gave Ben the choice--kill either Luke or kill the padawans...so in killing Han later on, Ben carried out what he hadn't been able to do to Luke.

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by snufkin on Sat 6 May - 6:28

@ISeeanIsland - I appreciate how we're allowed here (unlike some other boards I've belonged to) to have a freewheeling discussion without getting scolded or herded into the appropriate thread. But I figured given the discussion coming up again with the teaser and EW article, it would be a good time resurrect it.

Or perhaps Snoke gave Ben the choice--kill either Luke or kill the padawans...so in killing Han later on, Ben carried out what he hadn't been able to do to Luke.

I definitely think that's part of Han's sacrifice  - something Snoke has been holding over Ben's head. He has to perform a Blood Oath in order to complete the last hurdle for gaining trust. The Sopranos comparison if you will, remember how Christopher's arc was about becoming a Made Man. So Ben was required to perform an act like this in order to seal the deal. With Leia or Luke, it may have been as simple as both of them being too powerful in the Force for Ben to go up against. Or the emotion when it comes to Leia. And even in a tragic way, there was the possibility of Snoke's "bring her to me" order could've resulted in Rey's death because we've speculated that it would've meant him taking the information brutally from her and then making an example by either killing her or making Ben kill her. Lucky for her that she was able to escape and meet up with Finn/Han*. So it seems like it was an either or scenario - either Han or Rey would've been killed at SKB. And Han's death saved Rey, whose path and influence may likely further save Ben's soul/life.

* Come to think of it, after Snoke's order, it's entirely possible that Ben entirely switched to Plan B of thinking that he could go back, grab Rey, and take off with her. Possibly even leveling with her about how high the stakes were w/the offer to teach her. Especially now that the threat of Leia getting killed with SKB targeting the base she was on. But when he returns to find her escaped, that's when he panics because it's his last chance to at least track down Luke and whatever he's after on Ache-to. So the cat and mouse sequence through SKB between the two of them is interrupted by Han and Finn's arrival. And when the moment comes, Ben is desperate and deluded enough to think that the only card he has to play is killing Han in order to become more powerful in the DS and secure Snoke's trust. Because he can't do anything to stop Leia's death. But his choice backfires immediately and makes things even worse for him.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by snufkin on Sat 6 May - 9:44

Here's something else for the topic about what state Ben was in leading up to the tragedy. Because we've talked about wuxia here, I ran across this comment about Jen, Zhang Ziyi's character in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, who's angry, tempestuous and acts out in rebellion about her aristocratic station in life and expectations. And her toxic mentor Jade Fox could easily be Snoke.

And as the tempestuous young kung-fu genius whose story drives the entire movie, Zhang Ziyi, in her first real starring role, was just magical, starting off as a brat who steals legendary swords for fun and ending it as a tragic figure.

(x)

The Green Destiny is stolen early on by a young woman, Jen, who appears decorous and shy in her father’s home, but quickly reveals herself as arrogant, tenacious, and deeply angry—and her Chinese name, Yu Jiao Long, can be translated as “spoiled jade dragon.”

as the movie begins, she’s fighting her sense of duty as a good daughter and a dutiful wife. It’s a short, poorly fought battle: When Shu Lien meets her, she suspects at once that Jen’s meek, placid exterior hides something else

also this sounds an awful lot like his pursuit of Rey with flipped gender roles

Jen isn’t much for holding back in general. As a flashback reveals, one reason she’s willing to steal the famous sword, defy her family and fiancé, flout tradition, and run off into the wilderness alone is because of a tempestous affair she had with a bandit named Lo, a swaggering romance-novel figure who robbed her caravan. When Jen furiously chases him deep into the desert, it’s supposedly because she wants to retrieve the comb he stole from her hand, but there’s much more at work under the surface. She doesn’t attempt to control her outrage at his behavior, or her self-righteous desire to attack and punish him. She doesn’t consider whether it’s remotely safe to take on his entire bandit horde on her own, or charge after him through the sand without water or other supplies. What she may be repressing, though, is her instant attraction to someone who so flamboyantly defies her—and her hatred of her own cosseted life as a piece of décor and merchandise. She thinks she’s angry, but she seems more despairing, and awfully willing to throw that life away.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by snufkin on Tue 18 Jul - 9:48

OK bumping this up against given some recent discussions. Whatever Luke got involved with during the post RotJ era, coupled with the magical thinking about his father which ignored the very real pain/damage inflicted on other people, including his own sister = whatever bad things caused Ben to "destroy it all" in Han's words. And that the comments from the cast about the story being unexpected, different direction than what the audience expects from TFA more than likely means Luke Skywalker isn't going to be a sad but golden hearted good guy, but somebody who's likely got mixed up in some things which caused serious trouble. And that whatever happened, it's more than just bloodshed and loss of life, but something far reaching, catastrophic, and wiping out the very identity of Force users which is central to the Jedi and the family legacy/identity.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Piper Maru on Tue 18 Jul - 9:53

I have a headcanon that Ben's bitterness towards his family is far more serious than "Mama and Papa had to work and I was alone".

What if things got really bad in the academy and Luke, somehow, left Ben behind? That would make Ben's anger far more understandable, and if Luke didn't know what he was doing, he wouldn't become a master villain either.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Tue 18 Jul - 11:46

Piper Maru wrote:I have a headcanon that Ben's bitterness towards his family is far more serious than "Mama and Papa had to work and I was alone".

What if things got really bad in the academy and Luke, somehow, left Ben behind? That would make Ben's anger far more understandable, and if Luke didn't know what he was doing, he wouldn't become a master villain either.
@Piper Maru

Oh, I completely agree that there's going to be a better reason for it than "Mommy and Daddy didn't pay enough attention to me."

The premise of Luke leaving Ben behind an interesting idea.

We've had several hints that Ben was sent to Luke against Ben's (and Han's) choice. If Ben didn't want to be there, and Luke was behind something bad (inadvertently or not), Ben feeling abandoned would be understandable...especially if, perhaps, he'd asked to come home a few times.

My current headcanon has Ben getting sent to Luke, and it's turned out that Luke is a bit of a fanatic at this point, and Ben tries to sound a warning to his parents and gets blown off. At the time of Ben's fall, Luke's followers are planning something bad (in the name of a good cause), which Ben disagrees with....then the Vader reveal happens, the acolytes turn on Ben, and Ben ends up killing them all.

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by snufkin on Tue 18 Jul - 12:43

ISeeAnIsland wrote:
Piper Maru wrote:I have a headcanon that Ben's bitterness towards his family is far more serious than "Mama and Papa had to work and I was alone".

What if things got really bad in the academy and Luke, somehow, left Ben behind? That would make Ben's anger far more understandable, and if Luke didn't know what he was doing, he wouldn't become a master villain either.
@Piper Maru

Oh, I completely agree that there's going to be a better reason for it than "Mommy and Daddy didn't pay enough attention to me."

The premise of Luke leaving Ben behind an interesting idea.

We've had several hints that Ben was sent to Luke against Ben's (and Han's) choice. If Ben didn't want to be there, and Luke was behind something bad (inadvertently or not), Ben feeling abandoned would be understandable...especially if, perhaps, he'd asked to come home a few times.

My current headcanon has Ben getting sent to Luke, and it's turned out that Luke is a bit of a fanatic at this point, and Ben tries to sound a warning to his parents and gets blown off. At the time of Ben's fall, Luke's followers are planning something bad (in the name of a good cause), which Ben disagrees with....then the Vader reveal happens, the acolytes turn on Ben, and Ben ends up killing them all.
@ISeeAnIsland

I definitely agree that there's some kind disillusionment involved beyond just his relationship with his immediate family members. And that whatever went down, Luke planted the seeds of whatever happened. More than likely in conjunction with Leia's fall from power in Bloodline.

Also Turner Classic Movies is showing Dr. Zhivago this evening, so got a nice reminder from the narration (provided by Obi-Wan himself) which likely is part of what motivated Ben towards his actions and defection to the FO,
There were too many volunteers like me. Mostly, it was mere hysteria. But there were men with better motives, who saw the times were critical and wanted a man’s part. Good men, wasted. Unhappy men, too. Unhappy in their jobs. Unhappy with their wives. Doubting themselves. Happy men don’t volunteer. They wait their turn, and thank God if their age or work delays it.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Tue 18 Jul - 14:40

Another thought off the top of my head...

We've got Batman Begins on tv in the background right now, and it's got me wondering if a Dark! Luke/Luke's acolytes situation could be similar to what was set up in Nolan's Batman trilogy with Ra's al Ghul and the League of Shadows. You've got a seemingly "good" mentor figure in Ra's al Ghul, and Bruce Wayne trains with him and the LoS, only to learn that Ra's al Ghul is a fanatic and plans to deal with Gotham City's corruption in a really extreme way, etc.

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Wed 19 Jul - 0:04

ISeeAnIsland wrote:Another thought off the top of my head...

We've got Batman Begins on tv in the background right now, and it's got me wondering if a Dark! Luke/Luke's acolytes situation could be similar to what was set up in Nolan's Batman trilogy with Ra's al Ghul and the League of Shadows. You've got a seemingly "good" mentor figure in Ra's al Ghul, and Bruce Wayne trains with him and the LoS, only to learn that Ra's al Ghul is a fanatic and plans to deal with Gotham City's corruption in a really extreme way, etc.
@ISeeAnIsland

I like this idea a lot. I could very much see less of a traditional "dark side" Luke in the traditional sense, and more of a "purge the darkness by fire." Apocalyptic type. This could go a long way to explaining why Kylo took out that village, if they are also radical apocalyptic "purge by fire" believers too.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by ladyconsular on Wed 19 Jul - 2:24

I see I'm not the only one who feels Ben turning Dark was a selfless choice and not because he was fully corrupted. I tend to compare him to Snape a lot, who was playing both sides.

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