What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by fuhry on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 12:19 pm

I think the fact that Vader is Luke and Leia's father, and Ben's grandfather, becoming public is being set up to be a huge factor in the story. Leia grew up idolizing the glory of the Republic, before it was destroyed by the Palpatine and the Empire. Luke too, hears Obi-wan wax poetic about the Jedi being the guardians of peace and justice for thousands of generations, before the Empire came along.

But in truth, it's was never so simple. Simply removing the Empire and replacing it with a new 'Republic' doesn't solve all the problems. There is corruption in the New Republic too.

I think the Vader reveal threw shame on the Skywalker family. Leia likely chose to prove her loyalty to the Republic. Luke would be unapologetic, as he sees his father in a more sympathetic light. But with the Republic turned against him, and no desire to redeem himself in their eyes, Luke would kind of have nowhere to go. Ben would feel shame, and anger, at being judged this way, and having not grown up with the Empire, would not feel the hate for the Empire that Luke and especially Leia feel. Perhaps Snoke appealed to Ben by saying he didn't have to be ashamed of who he was.

Also, Luke and Ben may have researched the fall of the Republic and the Jedi. They may have, in a sense, watched the prequels and came away thinking that the questionable ethical compromises of the Jedi, and their embrace of war, was as responsible for Anakin's turn and the fall of the Jedi as anything else.

But more importantly, how would the Republic's turning its back on the Skywalkers affect Luke's Jedi temple training center? Suddenly, Luke is seen as a threat, and so are all of his students. Maybe the Republic attacks the temple. Maybe they arrive demanding that the temple be disbanded. Maybe Ben reacts badly to that. Ben Solo grows up a child of privilege, the son and nephew of heroes. When his family falls out of favor, and his parents and Uncle disagree with him on how to handle that, what is he to do?
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Darth Dementor on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 3:49 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Piper Maru wrote:I have a headcanon that Ben's bitterness towards his family is far more serious than "Mama and Papa had to work and I was alone".

What if things got really bad in the academy and Luke, somehow, left Ben behind? That would make Ben's anger far more understandable, and if Luke didn't know what he was doing, he wouldn't become a master villain either.
@Piper Maru

Oh, I completely agree that there's going to be a better reason for it than "Mommy and Daddy didn't pay enough attention to me."

The premise of Luke leaving Ben behind an interesting idea.


We've had several hints that Ben was sent to Luke against Ben's (and Han's) choice. If Ben didn't want to be there, and Luke was behind something bad (inadvertently or not), Ben feeling abandoned would be understandable...especially if, perhaps, he'd asked to come home a few times.

My current headcanon has Ben getting sent to Luke, and it's turned out that Luke is a bit of a fanatic at this point, and Ben tries to sound a warning to his parents and gets blown off. At the time of Ben's fall, Luke's followers are planning something bad (in the name of a good cause), which Ben disagrees with....then the Vader reveal happens, the acolytes turn on Ben, and Ben ends up killing them all.
@ISeeAnIsland



The 3:14 mark really fleshes out some strong reasoning why this may be the case.  And what the repercussions of Han's death may play in Leia and Bens(and possibly Chewies) reconnecting.

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Guest on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 9:20 am

I think it will be revealed that sending Ben to Luke was a major mistake on Leia's part, especially if Luke was in the beginnings of a light side crusade with no tolerance for dark tendencies in other Force users.

I can see Luke being particularly harsh and controlling with Ben in an attempt to stifle or cleanse the darkness from him, which would accomplish nothing except to fill Ben with self-loathing and resentment. He most likely believed that there was something wrong with him.

Luke, along with his acolytes, could have begun hunting down suspected dark siders with the intention of destroying them. I simply can't see Ben agreeing with this at all, as he is himself equal parts light and darkness.

The acolytes were not younglings and seemed to be just followers of Luke. I believe they were likely not innocent. I imagine they assisted Luke in his bloody crusade and were responsible for the deaths of many dark siders.

Ben finding out that he is in fact the grandson of Vader was probably the point when he realized the murderous hypocrisy of what had been going on and decided to destroy all of the acolytes and to ultimately kill Luke.

But in order to kill Luke, he had to first overcome his sentiment for family. So he went with Snoke, who promised to help him become strong in the dark side, suppress his compassion for family, and finish what Vader started.

Rey finding out about all of this, and possibly even discovering that her own family were victims of Luke/his acolytes, would absolutely cause her to feel differently about Kylo. I think she would forgive him, as will the majority of the audience.

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 12:18 pm

WhatGirl wrote:I think it will be revealed that sending Ben to Luke was a major mistake on Leia's part, especially if Luke was in the beginnings of a light side crusade with no tolerance for dark tendencies in other Force users.

I can see Luke being particularly harsh and controlling with Ben in an attempt to stifle or cleanse the darkness from him, which would accomplish nothing except to fill Ben with self-loathing and resentment. He most likely believed that there was something wrong with him.

Luke, along with his acolytes, could have begun hunting down suspected dark siders with the intention of destroying them. I simply can't see Ben agreeing with this at all, as he is himself equal parts light and darkness.

The acolytes were not younglings and seemed to be just followers of Luke. I believe they were likely not innocent. I imagine they assisted Luke in his bloody crusade and were responsible for the deaths of many dark siders.

Ben finding out that he is in fact the grandson of Vader was probably the point when he realized the murderous hypocrisy of what had been going on and decided to destroy all of the acolytes and to ultimately kill Luke.

But in order to kill Luke, he had to first overcome his sentiment for family. So he went with Snoke, who promised to help him become strong in the dark side, suppress his compassion for family, and finish what Vader started.

Rey finding out about all of this, and possibly even discovering that her own family were victims of Luke/his acolytes, would absolutely cause her to feel differently about Kylo. I think she would forgive him, as will the majority of the audience.
@WhatGirl

I have nothing to add, but I really like the way you put everything together for this theory. I suspect that something like this is probably likely what happened--we certainly haven't heard anything to contradict this.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by ReyofLightSide on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 1:26 pm

WhatGirl wrote:I think it will be revealed that sending Ben to Luke was a major mistake on Leia's part, especially if Luke was in the beginnings of a light side crusade with no tolerance for dark tendencies in other Force users.

I can see Luke being particularly harsh and controlling with Ben in an attempt to stifle or cleanse the darkness from him, which would accomplish nothing except to fill Ben with self-loathing and resentment. He most likely believed that there was something wrong with him.

Luke, along with his acolytes, could have begun hunting down suspected dark siders with the intention of destroying them. I simply can't see Ben agreeing with this at all, as he is himself equal parts light and darkness.

The acolytes were not younglings and seemed to be just followers of Luke. I believe they were likely not innocent. I imagine they assisted Luke in his bloody crusade and were responsible for the deaths of many dark siders.

Ben finding out that he is in fact the grandson of Vader was probably the point when he realized the murderous hypocrisy of what had been going on and decided to destroy all of the acolytes and to ultimately kill Luke.

But in order to kill Luke, he had to first overcome his sentiment for family. So he went with Snoke, who promised to help him become strong in the dark side, suppress his compassion for family, and finish what Vader started.

Rey finding out about all of this, and possibly even discovering that her own family were victims of Luke/his acolytes, would absolutely cause her to feel differently about Kylo. I think she would forgive him, as will the majority of the audience.
@WhatGirl

This makes a lot of sense! Luke on a crusade kind of like the Spanish Inquisition?
It explains why Kylo hated LST if LST was part of this as well.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by snufkin on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 2:42 pm

@WhatGirl - I think you're pretty close to the mark, especially what happened with Luke when he was on his quest for Jedi lore/history and Leia unwittingly threw Ben in the middle of it. The only thing I still am puzzling over with whatever happened to Rey's parents is whether or not Luke had anything to do with it. Only because it seems like the story is setting up the "truth" of Luke Skywalker, man versus myth, and LST's line to Ben about the "truth" of his family. That the bad thing Luke did hurt his own nephew and in learning that truth, it's part of what DR has said "sometimes you meet your heroes and they turn out to be not what you expected." Learning Luke did things which ended up hurting/betraying his sister's only child would change Rey's perceptions of Luke as a hero/good family member and also about Kylo/Ben being a monstah. Especially when they've shown over and over again family and loyalty (to the point of potential self destruction) to your loved ones is Rey's core value/motivator. That's the part I still think will happen, just it may be that she has her perceptions/mission flipped in learning what happened between Luke and Ben. But I definitely think you're right that there is some connection with her family to all of this, that they were hurt as a result of whatever has been going on with the different factions and agendas. Just a question of who's behind their disappearance, Team Luke or Team Snoke.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by darthbutterfingers on Mon 21 Aug 2017, 1:36 am

Hi All, I haven't posted to this topic before but I just had some stuff going around my head, especially after Mark Hamill's comment about Luke believing Ben was "the chosen one". Anyway, so I was thinking about what would be Ben/Kylo Ren's motive for "destroying" everything and killing the other Jedi/Padawans (or whatever unclear events went down). So I was also thinking of Kylo Ren's comment to Vader's mask that he would "finish what you started" that left us wondering what the hell that's supposed to mean. Well one of the things that Vader had planned to do was turn his son, Luke, to the dark side - you know, so he wouldn't have to destroy him. A major theme throughout the second half of ESB and all through RoTJ was Vader's intention (at Palpatine's behest) to turn Luke to the dark side. In ESB his first attempt involved chopping off Luke's hand and then telling him exactly who his father was (surprise, it's me). Didn't work. In RoTJ he drags Luke up before the Emperor and what do you know - Luke comes perilously close to the dark side in their duel but, again, didn't work. Luke rejects the dark side and :O Vader turns instead. One of them was going to turn, so good on Vader for giving Palpatine the heave-ho and turning back to the light.

But of course that wasn't the end of the dark side. Nooo. Snoke is still out there somewhere festering away in the dark side. Rumour has it that Snoke is very old, ancient even (if Maz can be 1000 years old then Snoke could be too or more).  Anyway, if Snoke was there all the time (as implied by his speech to Kylo about Vader and 'sentiment') then Snoke himself may be behind the fall of many Jedi to the dark side - perhaps even starting with Palpatine, Dooku, Anakin and obviously Ben. How would Snoke be responsible for the fall of these Jedi? Well we can see this through how he reached into Ben's life even while he was in the womb. It seems Snoke is capable of influencing people from afar. I assume it's easier to work through people like Palpatine though. So Snoke could have been the one propogating the dark side all along (weren't there hints of some "Big Bad" above it all at some point).

But not Luke it would seem. That must burn. I know there are a lot of theories about Luke turning to the dark side and getting off track and all that. But what if he wasn't. What if he wasn't doing so bad. Not perfect obviously or things wouldn't have gone so badly off track, but not falling to the dark side or on some  ill advised crusade either. Luke was managing to stay mostly on the right path - and for Snoke that was the damned problem. Luke wasn't being manipulated by the temptation to the dark side. If you can resist Snoke then you must be pretty powerful. I can see Snoke coveting that power or being afraid of it.

So how do we get Luke to fall to the dark side. I think family has always been important to Luke. He thought Ben was "the chosen one". He put a lot into training Ben according to Mark Hamill's comments. Luke would have loved Ben like he was his own. If Snoke could get Ben to turn then maybe he had a chance of getting Luke to turn as well. This is getting long so I just want to say, having turned Ben to the dark side, using/manipulating Ben to "destroy" the new Jedi that Luke was training may be an attempt to use Ben to get Luke to turn to the dark side. Third time lucky right. Luke would have been angry, heartbroken and lots more when he realised what Ben had done. However, I'm guessing that once again it didn't really work. Instead of turning to the dark side (and Luke may have guessed this was the main motive for the "massacre") instead left to get away from the temptation to turn to the dark side (as well as going off to find out why he'd gotten the prophecy so wrong - the original prophecy having been recorded in the first Jedi temple).

So again, trying to turn Luke to the dark side didn't work. Snoke has turned Ben, gotten rid of any up and coming Jedi but still didn't manage to snag Luke. So I guess Snoke finally decides he needs to go with plan A and destroy Luke, which he is now busy manipulating Ben into helping him do.

One last comment about the prophecy and the chosen one and Luke's comment "It's so much bigger". What's so much bigger? Maybe it's the prophecy that's so much bigger. It's not just about the Jedi and the Sith. That's what the prequel Jedi didn't understand. It's about the source of the dark side. Is it Snoke, it is something even bigger. Whatever/whoever it is, Snoke seems like a good candidate for what needs to be destroyed, especially if it's because of Snoke's influence that Jedi/force users have been falling to the dark side. The moment the force created Anakin, Snoke knew he had to do something to stop "the chosen one" so he's been targeting the Skywalkers since then. Which is why, according to Snoke, Luke has to either turn or be destroyed. Ben has turned but just watch out Snokeskin - remember who his grandfather is and what happened with Anakin/Vader at the end.

Oh and of course there's Rey coming in from left field and disrupting Snoke's plans.

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 9:33 am

So I've had this thing stuck in my mind since I first saw the trailer, and I think first gut reactions are important to take note of. The way Luke reaches out from under the rubble at the academy tells me that whatever happened at the temple totally overwhelmed him and took him by surprise, which to me is a big suggestion that there's more to it in a very particular way. I genuinely don't think Kylo would have been able to overpower Luke at the time under ordinary circumstances, and the hand-reaching-from-the-rubble clip tells me that he was inside the building. The trailer gives you the suggestion that the "raw, untamed" power is destructive, perhaps unintentionally so (i.e. Rey cracking the rock just by meditating). So what if that raw, untamed power inside Kylo went out of control somehow? As in, it was an accident? In the trailer Luke doesn't simply referring to his oh-so-bad school-shooter nephew that went dark and brought his gang to the monastery, he was referring specifically to the "power", as in it was the power that did it, the power that was responsible, the same power Rey has? I think it makes a lot of sense, and would still leave Kylo responsible enough to be called the Jedi Killer without being completely emotionally culpable.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 9:52 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:So I've had this thing stuck in my mind since I first saw the trailer, and I think first gut reactions are important to take note of. The way Luke reaches out from under the rubble at the academy tells me that whatever happened at the temple totally overwhelmed him and took him by surprise, which to me is a big suggestion that there's more to it in a very particular way. I genuinely don't think Kylo would have been able to overpower Luke at the time under ordinary circumstances, and the hand-reaching-from-the-rubble clip tells me that he was inside the building. The trailer gives you the suggestion that the "raw, untamed" power is destructive, perhaps unintentionally so (i.e. Rey cracking the rock just by meditating). So what if that raw, untamed power inside Kylo went out of control somehow? As in, it was an accident? In the trailer Luke doesn't simply referring to his oh-so-bad school-shooter nephew that went dark and brought his gang to the monastery, he was referring specifically to the "power", as in it was the power that did it, the power that was responsible, the same power Rey has? I think it makes a lot of sense, and would still leave Kylo responsible enough to be called the Jedi Killer without being completely emotionally culpable.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Yeah, that's the exact same impression that I got from the trailer. The guilt of doing this would send Kylo into a downward spiral and make him very desperate for any help he could get to control it, which is where predator Snoke would come in.

This whole "raw powah" thing is really interesting because it seems to be making force sensitivity be both a blessing and a curse at the same time. It's like Kylo and Rey are like Elsa. They won't be able to control it until they reach a certain level of ... stability ... security ... enlightenment. To bring it back to what Rian said about this being like an adolescent journey *and* what Adam said about Kylo having the burden of these powers with no guidance tells me that both are on a bumpy maturation path.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by vaderito on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 9:55 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:So I've had this thing stuck in my mind since I first saw the trailer, and I think first gut reactions are important to take note of. The way Luke reaches out from under the rubble at the academy tells me that whatever happened at the temple totally overwhelmed him and took him by surprise, which to me is a big suggestion that there's more to it in a very particular way. I genuinely don't think Kylo would have been able to overpower Luke at the time under ordinary circumstances, and the hand-reaching-from-the-rubble clip tells me that he was inside the building. The trailer gives you the suggestion that the "raw, untamed" power is destructive, perhaps unintentionally so (i.e. Rey cracking the rock just by meditating). So what if that raw, untamed power inside Kylo went out of control somehow? As in, it was an accident? In the trailer Luke doesn't simply referring to his oh-so-bad school-shooter nephew that went dark and brought his gang to the monastery, he was referring specifically to the "power", as in it was the power that did it, the power that was responsible, the same power Rey has? I think it makes a lot of sense, and would still leave Kylo responsible enough to be called the Jedi Killer without being completely emotionally culpable.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I think that Ben's #RAWPOWAH is the reason why Luke thought Ben was the Chosen One. Mark said in EW interview that Luke thought Ben was the Chosen One. So my guess is that #RAWPOWAH identified him as such and not his lineage. That #RAWPOWAH is not lineage-based but a new phenomenon specific to Rey and Ren.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 9:56 am

@vaderito wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:So I've had this thing stuck in my mind since I first saw the trailer, and I think first gut reactions are important to take note of. The way Luke reaches out from under the rubble at the academy tells me that whatever happened at the temple totally overwhelmed him and took him by surprise, which to me is a big suggestion that there's more to it in a very particular way. I genuinely don't think Kylo would have been able to overpower Luke at the time under ordinary circumstances, and the hand-reaching-from-the-rubble clip tells me that he was inside the building. The trailer gives you the suggestion that the "raw, untamed" power is destructive, perhaps unintentionally so (i.e. Rey cracking the rock just by meditating). So what if that raw, untamed power inside Kylo went out of control somehow? As in, it was an accident? In the trailer Luke doesn't simply referring to his oh-so-bad school-shooter nephew that went dark and brought his gang to the monastery, he was referring specifically to the "power", as in it was the power that did it, the power that was responsible, the same power Rey has? I think it makes a lot of sense, and would still leave Kylo responsible enough to be called the Jedi Killer without being completely emotionally culpable.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I think that Ben's #RAWPOWAH is the reason why Luke thought Ben was the Chosen One. Mark said in EW interview that Luke thought Ben was the Chosen One. So my guess is that #RAWPOWAH identified him as such and not his lineage. That #RAWPOWAH is not lineage-based but a new phenomenon specific to Rey and Ren.
@vaderito
It seems like there are less Force Sensitives, so maybe it's as simple as Rey and Kylo being too connected to the Force, the primal, dark-and-light force. Like, with the lack of others to take it on they're overly saturated with it and therefore can't control it, probably like the First Jedi?
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by vaderito on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 10:01 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
It seems like there are less Force Sensitives, so maybe it's as simple as Rey and Kylo being too connected to the Force, the primal, dark-and-light force. Like, with the lack of others to take it on they're overly saturated with it and therefore can't control it, probably like the First Jedi?
@FrolickingFizzgig

Agreed. We also know from TFA that they are emphasizing raw and primal nature of their Force - his Force sound is cat purr and hers is heartbeat. No other characters ever had Force sounds. So that Luke went to the First Jedi temple to find answers about #RAWPOWAH makes perfect sense if Rey and Kylo act like the first Force Users/Jedi.

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SkyStar on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 11:32 am

@vaderito wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:  
It seems like there are less Force Sensitives, so maybe it's as simple as Rey and Kylo being too connected to the Force, the primal, dark-and-light force. Like, with the lack of others to take it on they're overly saturated with it and therefore can't control it, probably like the First Jedi?
@FrolickingFizzgig

Agreed. We also know from TFA that they are emphasizing raw and primal nature of their Force - his Force sound is cat purr and hers is heartbeat. No other characters ever had Force sounds. So that Luke went to the First Jedi temple to find answers about #RAWPOWAH makes perfect sense if Rey and Kylo act like the first Force Users/Jedi.

@vaderito

It also goes together with the nature metaphors in the movie - rain, thunder, fire.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by vaderito on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 11:59 am

@SkyStar wrote:

It also goes together with the nature metaphors in the movie - rain, thunder, fire.
@SkyStar

Excellent observation. Very elemental.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Darth_Awakened on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 12:06 pm

The #RawPowah is also an easy explanation for Rey's Mary Sue-ness in TFA.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by ZioRen on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 12:16 pm

Yes, I'm also starting to think that a build up of factors caused Ben Solo to go kablooey in the Jedi Temple, partially against his will. Honestly, it would sort of be a perfect way to balance personal responsibility with a sympathetic, out-of-his-control factor that makes Kylo more redeemable. Because I could see a scenario where Ben was lashing out on purpose, but it went too far unintentionally. As in he meant to cause harm, but not to that extent.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 12:42 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:So I've had this thing stuck in my mind since I first saw the trailer, and I think first gut reactions are important to take note of. The way Luke reaches out from under the rubble at the academy tells me that whatever happened at the temple totally overwhelmed him and took him by surprise, which to me is a big suggestion that there's more to it in a very particular way. I genuinely don't think Kylo would have been able to overpower Luke at the time under ordinary circumstances, and the hand-reaching-from-the-rubble clip tells me that he was inside the building. The trailer gives you the suggestion that the "raw, untamed" power is destructive, perhaps unintentionally so (i.e. Rey cracking the rock just by meditating). So what if that raw, untamed power inside Kylo went out of control somehow? As in, it was an accident? In the trailer Luke doesn't simply referring to his oh-so-bad school-shooter nephew that went dark and brought his gang to the monastery, he was referring specifically to the "power", as in it was the power that did it, the power that was responsible, the same power Rey has? I think it makes a lot of sense, and would still leave Kylo responsible enough to be called the Jedi Killer without being completely emotionally culpable.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Yeah, that's the exact same impression that I got from the trailer. The guilt of doing this would send Kylo into a downward spiral and make him very desperate for any help he could get to control it, which is where predator Snoke would come in.

This whole "raw powah" thing is really interesting because it seems to be making force sensitivity be both a blessing and a curse at the same time. It's like Kylo and Rey are like Elsa. They won't be able to control it until they reach a certain level of ... stability ... security ... enlightenment. To bring it back to what Rian said about this being like an adolescent journey *and* what Adam said about Kylo having the burden of these powers with no guidance tells me that both are on a bumpy maturation path.
@SoloSideCousin

I've had the same thoughts since the trailer. And it would give a good balance of personal responsibility/matters-beyond-Ben's-control to what happened. The scale could swing towards him even more sympathetically if it turned out that he blew up because the other padawans were attacking him (even just verbally) because of the Vader reveal.

And we actually did have the groundwork laid for this somewhat in TFA, in the form of Kylo's tantrums.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by vaderito on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 12:46 pm

@Darth_Awakened wrote:The #RawPowah is also an easy explanation for Rey's Mary Sue-ness in TFA.
@Darth_Awakened

And it doesn't require lineage. Ben has #RAWPOWAH because he does, not because he's a Sky (since other Skys didn't have it).
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by snufkin on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 12:55 pm

Oh I definitely think it was meant to be a situation where he lost control (his powers and emotions are tied together) because it's the double punch of finding out via the outing depicted in Bloodline that Leia kept the truth from him and then having the other followers turn on him. That he already felt hurt/rejected by his parents for being sent off to Luke and then it comes out, because I'm too much like the biological father she's been lying about. And his uncle went along with it, including presenting a false story about the "good" public persona their father had. So all of that doubt, pain/rejection, and then people turning on him goes kablooey. And with the one detail in Bloodline where people immediately jump to the conclusion with Leia's parents (I can't remember which character says the only way a woman like her mother could've had children by a man like that would be rape) and are publically/politically decrying them, Luke has no choice but to flee. Snoke may have been waiting for a moment like this to get his hands on Ben, or orchestrated some of it as a pretext for offering him "the only safe harbor" when it's a kidnapping.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Xylo Ren on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 3:05 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:So I've had this thing stuck in my mind since I first saw the trailer, and I think first gut reactions are important to take note of. The way Luke reaches out from under the rubble at the academy tells me that whatever happened at the temple totally overwhelmed him and took him by surprise, which to me is a big suggestion that there's more to it in a very particular way. I genuinely don't think Kylo would have been able to overpower Luke at the time under ordinary circumstances, and the hand-reaching-from-the-rubble clip tells me that he was inside the building. The trailer gives you the suggestion that the "raw, untamed" power is destructive, perhaps unintentionally so (i.e. Rey cracking the rock just by meditating). So what if that raw, untamed power inside Kylo went out of control somehow? As in, it was an accident? In the trailer Luke doesn't simply referring to his oh-so-bad school-shooter nephew that went dark and brought his gang to the monastery, he was referring specifically to the "power", as in it was the power that did it, the power that was responsible, the same power Rey has? I think it makes a lot of sense, and would still leave Kylo responsible enough to be called the Jedi Killer without being completely emotionally culpable.
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Yup! Thought this too. It was an accident somehow, something he couldn't control. Maybe Snoke then stepped in and said "Only through me can you learn to control this power."
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 3:17 pm

@Xylo Ren wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:So I've had this thing stuck in my mind since I first saw the trailer, and I think first gut reactions are important to take note of. The way Luke reaches out from under the rubble at the academy tells me that whatever happened at the temple totally overwhelmed him and took him by surprise, which to me is a big suggestion that there's more to it in a very particular way. I genuinely don't think Kylo would have been able to overpower Luke at the time under ordinary circumstances, and the hand-reaching-from-the-rubble clip tells me that he was inside the building. The trailer gives you the suggestion that the "raw, untamed" power is destructive, perhaps unintentionally so (i.e. Rey cracking the rock just by meditating). So what if that raw, untamed power inside Kylo went out of control somehow? As in, it was an accident? In the trailer Luke doesn't simply referring to his oh-so-bad school-shooter nephew that went dark and brought his gang to the monastery, he was referring specifically to the "power", as in it was the power that did it, the power that was responsible, the same power Rey has? I think it makes a lot of sense, and would still leave Kylo responsible enough to be called the Jedi Killer without being completely emotionally culpable.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Yup! Thought this too. It was an accident somehow, something he couldn't control. Maybe Snoke then stepped in and said "Only through me can you learn to control this power."
@Xylo Ren

Which would make sense especially if Luke rejected him or took off immediately following the temple accident.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 6:12 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Xylo Ren wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:So I've had this thing stuck in my mind since I first saw the trailer, and I think first gut reactions are important to take note of. The way Luke reaches out from under the rubble at the academy tells me that whatever happened at the temple totally overwhelmed him and took him by surprise, which to me is a big suggestion that there's more to it in a very particular way. I genuinely don't think Kylo would have been able to overpower Luke at the time under ordinary circumstances, and the hand-reaching-from-the-rubble clip tells me that he was inside the building. The trailer gives you the suggestion that the "raw, untamed" power is destructive, perhaps unintentionally so (i.e. Rey cracking the rock just by meditating). So what if that raw, untamed power inside Kylo went out of control somehow? As in, it was an accident? In the trailer Luke doesn't simply referring to his oh-so-bad school-shooter nephew that went dark and brought his gang to the monastery, he was referring specifically to the "power", as in it was the power that did it, the power that was responsible, the same power Rey has? I think it makes a lot of sense, and would still leave Kylo responsible enough to be called the Jedi Killer without being completely emotionally culpable.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Yup! Thought this too. It was an accident somehow, something he couldn't control. Maybe Snoke then stepped in and said "Only through me can you learn to control this power."
@Xylo Ren

Which would make sense especially if Luke rejected him or took off immediately following the temple accident.
@ISeeAnIsland

And thinking about the Aftermath books, I could totally see Luke taking off. In utero Ben had to introduce Leia to the Force because Luke had taken off.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 6:22 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Xylo Ren wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:So I've had this thing stuck in my mind since I first saw the trailer, and I think first gut reactions are important to take note of. The way Luke reaches out from under the rubble at the academy tells me that whatever happened at the temple totally overwhelmed him and took him by surprise, which to me is a big suggestion that there's more to it in a very particular way. I genuinely don't think Kylo would have been able to overpower Luke at the time under ordinary circumstances, and the hand-reaching-from-the-rubble clip tells me that he was inside the building. The trailer gives you the suggestion that the "raw, untamed" power is destructive, perhaps unintentionally so (i.e. Rey cracking the rock just by meditating). So what if that raw, untamed power inside Kylo went out of control somehow? As in, it was an accident? In the trailer Luke doesn't simply referring to his oh-so-bad school-shooter nephew that went dark and brought his gang to the monastery, he was referring specifically to the "power", as in it was the power that did it, the power that was responsible, the same power Rey has? I think it makes a lot of sense, and would still leave Kylo responsible enough to be called the Jedi Killer without being completely emotionally culpable.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Yup! Thought this too. It was an accident somehow, something he couldn't control. Maybe Snoke then stepped in and said "Only through me can you learn to control this power."
@Xylo Ren

Which would make sense especially if Luke rejected him or took off immediately following the temple accident.
@ISeeAnIsland

And thinking about the Aftermath books, I could totally see Luke taking off. In utero Ben had to introduce Leia to the Force because Luke had taken off.
@SoloSideCousin

Right! Right! And if Luke was as focused on Force lore as it appears he would have been, he could have taken off to find the first Jedi temple to find some way to deal with/control/defeat Ben's raw power.

Additionally, if Luke is afraid of even training Rey, the rumor of him telling her that she has to kill Kylo starts to make more sense.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 6:53 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Xylo Ren wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:So I've had this thing stuck in my mind since I first saw the trailer, and I think first gut reactions are important to take note of. The way Luke reaches out from under the rubble at the academy tells me that whatever happened at the temple totally overwhelmed him and took him by surprise, which to me is a big suggestion that there's more to it in a very particular way. I genuinely don't think Kylo would have been able to overpower Luke at the time under ordinary circumstances, and the hand-reaching-from-the-rubble clip tells me that he was inside the building. The trailer gives you the suggestion that the "raw, untamed" power is destructive, perhaps unintentionally so (i.e. Rey cracking the rock just by meditating). So what if that raw, untamed power inside Kylo went out of control somehow? As in, it was an accident? In the trailer Luke doesn't simply referring to his oh-so-bad school-shooter nephew that went dark and brought his gang to the monastery, he was referring specifically to the "power", as in it was the power that did it, the power that was responsible, the same power Rey has? I think it makes a lot of sense, and would still leave Kylo responsible enough to be called the Jedi Killer without being completely emotionally culpable.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Yup! Thought this too. It was an accident somehow, something he couldn't control. Maybe Snoke then stepped in and said "Only through me can you learn to control this power."
@Xylo Ren

Which would make sense especially if Luke rejected him or took off immediately following the temple accident.
@ISeeAnIsland

And thinking about the Aftermath books, I could totally see Luke taking off. In utero Ben had to introduce Leia to the Force because Luke had taken off.
@SoloSideCousin

Right! Right! And if Luke was as focused on Force lore as it appears he would have been, he could have taken off to find the first Jedi temple to find some way to deal with/control/defeat Ben's raw power.

Additionally, if Luke is afraid of even training Rey, the rumor of him telling her that she has to kill Kylo starts to make more sense.
@ISeeAnIsland

Yes! I mean originally I thought that Luke went to Achto to find a way to help Ben. But Luke seems so bitter that perhaps he's become like Obi-Wan and Yoda were with Vader: namely, he's too destructive to live, he must be put down. But Luke's writing off of Ben would be much darker, not just because he's his nephew, but because Ben is not like Vader. There was a real argument for taking Vader out. The man was a murder machine. Here, if Luke wants Kylo to die, it would be much more because Kylo is "a freak of nature" more than his criminal behaviors, because he's a trained "freak of nature" capable of causing great destruction, not because he likes it like Vader did.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Irina de France on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 6:55 pm

So... if Luke thinks Kylo is a freak of nature, and Rey starts showing off the same #RAWPOWAH as he used to...

Rey, run. Far, far away.

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