What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Saracene on Sat 9 Apr - 11:18

I could be wrong, but I'm inclined to think that there isn't that much more to the story of what happened at Luke's school. I don't think that Kylo necessarily killed every single student himself - he could have had some back-up of Snoke's forces that he let into the school. But the gist of it is pretty much the same.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 9 Apr - 11:31

But there needs to be more to the story, if only to explain why it happened.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by EchoBase on Sat 9 Apr - 11:44

Guys, take a look at this:

"EXT DAY - 198 - ACADEMY • Leia and Han Solo hand over Young Kylo Ren to his Uncle for training

EXT DAWN - 200 - ACADEMY • Young Kylo Ren being trained by his Uncle

INT NIGHT - 202 - ACADEMY • Bodies left behind - Young Kylo Ren is gone

EXT DAY - 203 - JAGGED TERRAIN/PALACE • Kylo Ren joins The Knights Of Ren"

It is an excerpt from the original shooting schedule which has obviously been altered. As we all know it was planned to show a flashback of Leia and Han who hand over Ben to Luke.

Here's the link: http://millenniumfalcon.com

So, what I find peculiar is that according to this schedule "young Kylo" (so a child at the age of 8-10?) is handed over, "young Kylo" is trained and then bodies left behind and "young Kylo" is gone. This doesn't sound like he killed all those students, I rather got the expression that he might have been kidnapped.
And then Kylo Ren as an adult joins the KOR.

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by AnneNeville on Sat 9 Apr - 12:15

That's a pretty big deal in terms of storytelling for redemption. If "Young Kylo" was still young at the time of the massacre, his guilt takes on a different color. Not sure whether the description "Young Kylo" necessarily indicates a different actor than Adam Driver in all three of those scenes, but it suggests it.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by AnneNeville on Sat 9 Apr - 12:25

This is curious (pasting the whole sequence for continuity purposes):

EXT DAY - 198 - ACADEMY • Leia and Han Solo hand over Young Kylo Ren to his Uncle for training

EXT DAWN - 200 - ACADEMY • Young Kylo Ren being trained by his Uncle

INT NIGHT - 202 - ACADEMY • Bodies left behind - Young Kylo Ren is gone

EXT DAY - 203 - JAGGED TERRAIN/PALACE • Kylo Ren joins The Knights Of Ren

EXT DUSK - 204 - ACADEMY • R2-D2 upset as his master leaves

EXT NIGHT - 205 - JAGGED TERRAIN/PALACE • Kylo Ren joins The Knights Of Ren

This opens a question of how much time passed between the massacre/disappearance of Young Kylo and Luke's departure for places unknown. Does the change in name suggest that there is a gap, or just that the actor being used in the scene changed, but no time is assumed to have passed?
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 9 Apr - 12:43

@AnneNeville wrote:This is curious (pasting the whole sequence for continuity purposes):

EXT DAY - 198 - ACADEMY • Leia and Han Solo hand over Young Kylo Ren to his Uncle for training

EXT DAWN - 200 - ACADEMY • Young Kylo Ren being trained by his Uncle

INT NIGHT - 202 - ACADEMY • Bodies left behind - Young Kylo Ren is gone

EXT DAY - 203 - JAGGED TERRAIN/PALACE • Kylo Ren joins The Knights Of Ren

EXT DUSK - 204 - ACADEMY • R2-D2 upset as his master leaves

EXT NIGHT - 205 - JAGGED TERRAIN/PALACE • Kylo Ren joins The Knights Of Ren

This opens a question of how much time passed between the massacre/disappearance of Young Kylo and Luke's departure for places unknown. Does the change in name suggest that there is a gap, or just that the actor being used in the scene changed, but no time is assumed to have passed?
@AnneNeville

Yes, it's interesting... To me this suggests that they made pretty big last-minute changes. Sounds like the massacre was originally supposed to be contemporaneous with (or prior to) young Kylo joining the KOR, and the concept art suggests that "young Jedi Killer" was supposed to be very young indeed, maybe even a pre-teen. But now we've heard that the whatever-happened-at-the-Jedi-temple was much more recent... so it's possible Kylo joined the KOR (or was kidnapped, who knows) when he was very young, but "became a murderer" much later.

I think we should probably prepare ourselves for some potential plot holes, or at least shaky/unconvincing plotting. Or else they're deliberately misleading us, or even lying, about the timeline.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by AnneNeville on Sat 9 Apr - 12:44

The Finn/Snowchase/Telegraph office change is potentially a really big deal.

I wish I knew what of the above was sloppiness, and what was a coordinated change in the storytelling in partnership with Rian.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 9 Apr - 12:48

@AnneNeville wrote:The Finn/Snowchase/Telegraph office change is potentially a really big deal.

I wish I knew what of the above was sloppiness, and what was a coordinated change in the storytelling in partnership with Rian.
@AnneNeville

I agree... much as I love the film, with TFA, it's often hard to tell what's sloppy and what's deliberate.

Edit: what Pablo said about there being still so much story to tell (or whatever the wording was) when asked about the warning also suggests that the warning may have become a bigger deal, storytelling-wise.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by AnneNeville on Thu 21 Apr - 11:39

I wonder why the shooting schedule called it an academy, when at some point since we've been told it's not an academy. I guess that it is possible that MSW and/or the Millennium Falcon site just "guessed" that the code word in the shooting schedule stood for an academy since Young Kylo was being trained.

I've been pondering whether the massacre will be revealed as having happened in a Jedi Camp, IE Luke had mobilized his now-grown students for an organized military-style attack that might be viewed as morally ambiguous. Then Kylo, who defected earlier, comes in with his KoR and defeats them all, leaving Luke to scamper off and ponder how it all went so wrong.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by panki on Thu 21 Apr - 11:56

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@AnneNeville wrote:This is curious (pasting the whole sequence for continuity purposes):

EXT DAY - 198 - ACADEMY • Leia and Han Solo hand over Young Kylo Ren to his Uncle for training

EXT DAWN - 200 - ACADEMY • Young Kylo Ren being trained by his Uncle

INT NIGHT - 202 - ACADEMY • Bodies left behind - Young Kylo Ren is gone

EXT DAY - 203 - JAGGED TERRAIN/PALACE • Kylo Ren joins The Knights Of Ren

EXT DUSK - 204 - ACADEMY • R2-D2 upset as his master leaves

EXT NIGHT - 205 - JAGGED TERRAIN/PALACE • Kylo Ren joins The Knights Of Ren

This opens a question of how much time passed between the massacre/disappearance of Young Kylo and Luke's departure for places unknown. Does the change in name suggest that there is a gap, or just that the actor being used in the scene changed, but no time is assumed to have passed?
@AnneNeville

Yes, it's interesting... To me this suggests that they made pretty big last-minute changes. Sounds like the massacre was originally supposed to be contemporaneous with (or prior to) young Kylo joining the KOR, and the concept art suggests that "young Jedi Killer" was supposed to be very young indeed, maybe even a pre-teen. But now we've heard that the whatever-happened-at-the-Jedi-temple was much more recent... so it's possible Kylo joined the KOR (or was kidnapped, who knows) when he was very young, but "became a murderer" much later.

I think we should probably prepare ourselves for some potential plot holes, or at least shaky/unconvincing plotting. Or else they're deliberately misleading us, or even lying, about the timeline.
@Darth Dingbat

I noticed something curious....in the recent Obi-wan and Anakin comic, Anakin gets kidnapped when he is a young padawan.....Obi-wan and he are sent to help with bring peace to a planet having a civil war....one of the groups notices Anakin is good with fixing things and they try to kill Obi-wan and kidnap Anakin.....I don't know what happens next since this happens in the latest issue....but if Kylo identifies with his grandfather, did a similar event happen in Kylo's life as well?

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 21 Apr - 15:41

@panki wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@AnneNeville wrote:This is curious (pasting the whole sequence for continuity purposes):

EXT DAY - 198 - ACADEMY • Leia and Han Solo hand over Young Kylo Ren to his Uncle for training

EXT DAWN - 200 - ACADEMY • Young Kylo Ren being trained by his Uncle

INT NIGHT - 202 - ACADEMY • Bodies left behind - Young Kylo Ren is gone

EXT DAY - 203 - JAGGED TERRAIN/PALACE • Kylo Ren joins The Knights Of Ren

EXT DUSK - 204 - ACADEMY • R2-D2 upset as his master leaves

EXT NIGHT - 205 - JAGGED TERRAIN/PALACE • Kylo Ren joins The Knights Of Ren

This opens a question of how much time passed between the massacre/disappearance of Young Kylo and Luke's departure for places unknown. Does the change in name suggest that there is a gap, or just that the actor being used in the scene changed, but no time is assumed to have passed?
@AnneNeville

Yes, it's interesting... To me this suggests that they made pretty big last-minute changes. Sounds like the massacre was originally supposed to be contemporaneous with (or prior to) young Kylo joining the KOR, and the concept art suggests that "young Jedi Killer" was supposed to be very young indeed, maybe even a pre-teen. But now we've heard that the whatever-happened-at-the-Jedi-temple was much more recent... so it's possible Kylo joined the KOR (or was kidnapped, who knows) when he was very young, but "became a murderer" much later.

I think we should probably prepare ourselves for some potential plot holes, or at least shaky/unconvincing plotting. Or else they're deliberately misleading us, or even lying, about the timeline.
@Darth Dingbat

I noticed something curious....in the recent Obi-wan and Anakin comic, Anakin gets kidnapped when he is a young padawan.....Obi-wan and he are sent to help with bring peace to a planet having a civil war....one of the groups notices Anakin is good with fixing things and they try to kill Obi-wan and kidnap Anakin.....I don't know what happens next since this happens in the latest issue....but if Kylo identifies with his grandfather, did a similar event happen in Kylo's life as well?
@panki

I think when this schedule first came out we talked about the possibility of the KOR kidnapping Kylo Ren and brainwashing him. Someone, I think @Rimfaxe96 or @EchoBase brought up some old pre-TFA spoiler that indicated that just that had happened and then coupled with this break in the schedule with Ben being "gone" and next being with the KOR, the kidnapping was thought to be a possibility.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Rimfaxe96 on Thu 21 Apr - 16:06

@SoloSideCousin wrote:I think when this schedule first came out we talked about the possibility of the KOR kidnapping Kylo Ren and brainwashing him. Someone, I think @Rimfaxe96 or @EchoBase brought up some old pre-TFA spoiler that indicated that just that had happened and then coupled with this break in the schedule with Ben being "gone" and next being with the KOR, the kidnapping was thought to be a possibility.
@SoloSideCousin

Must ave been EchoBase then. Wink Next to the classic "runs off to join them" I guess that he was in touch with them somehow, in a double-life-kind-of-way. Those Knights don't exactly look like a club which allows every random stranger who asks them to join them.

Btw, about that filming sequence quote above - a palace, really? Man, the KoR are getting more bad*** by the day.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by AnneNeville on Thu 21 Apr - 16:24

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by EchoBase on Thu 21 Apr - 16:48

@Rimfaxe96 wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:I think when this schedule first came out we talked about the possibility of the KOR kidnapping Kylo Ren and brainwashing him. Someone, I think @Rimfaxe96 or @EchoBase brought up some old pre-TFA spoiler that indicated that just that had happened and then coupled with this break in the schedule with Ben being "gone" and next being with the KOR, the kidnapping was thought to be a possibility.
@SoloSideCousin

Must ave been EchoBase then. Wink Next to the classic "runs off to join them" I guess that he was in touch with them somehow, in a double-life-kind-of-way. Those Knights don't exactly look like a club which allows every random stranger who asks them to join them.

Btw, about that filming sequence quote above - a palace, really? Man, the KoR are getting more bad*** by the day.
@Rimfaxe96

It could have been me. I posted the link of the shooting schedule Smile.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by AnneNeville on Thu 21 Apr - 17:03

People have been assuming that the "turning against Luke" happened at some sort of school, making that event similar to Anakin's attack on the younglings. But what if that is not the case? If Ben was 23, there is another option . . . that during a battle between the Jedi and the FO, Ben switched sides (becoming Kylo Ren/Jedi Killer). It would be similar to the move that cost Richard III the Battle of Bosworth: one wing of his army held back, then went to Henry Lancaster, leading to Richard III's destruction.

I think that scenario would fit the evidence we have been given so far, too. It also puts a very different color on the betrayal, because there is a difference between murdering fellow students in an ambush, and changing sides in a battle (especially if from Kylo/Ben's point of view, the Jedi were engaging in an evil act or fighting for the wrong thing). It would make a stronger parallel between Kylo and Finn (who I believe was 23ish in the movie), perhaps explaining Kylo's moment in the village, when (to some) he seems to identify with Finn and walks away anyway.

It adds extra color to the "traitor" line, too.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 21 Apr - 17:21

@AnneNeville wrote:People have been assuming that the "turning against Luke" happened at some sort of school, making that event similar to Anakin's attack on the younglings. But what if that is not the case? If Ben was 23, there is another option . . . that during a battle between the Jedi and the FO, Ben switched sides (becoming Kylo Ren/Jedi Killer). It would be similar to the move that cost Richard III the Battle of Bosworth: one wing of his army held back, then went to Henry Lancaster, leading to Richard III's destruction.

I think that scenario would fit the evidence we have been given so far, too. It also puts a very different color on the betrayal, because there is a difference between murdering fellow students in an ambush, and changing sides in a battle (especially if from Kylo/Ben's point of view, the Jedi were engaging in an evil act or fighting for the wrong thing). It would make a stronger parallel between Kylo and Finn (who I believe was 23ish in the movie), perhaps explaining Kylo's moment in the village, when (to some) he seems to identify with Finn and walks away anyway.

It adds extra color to the "traitor" line, too.
@AnneNeville

I just answered a similar post from you in another thread. I agree. I think Kylo could literally be one faction with one idealogy and Luke be representing another. It doesn't make it cute, but it does take it out of that terrible Anakin massacre realm and puts it squarely into the two armed, opposing factions realm which is less murder and more war.

And good thoughts about Finn!!!! Kylo would understand that moment of profound disagreement ... and thus lets Finn go ... thereby giving Finn some modicum of respect ... but when Finn causes everything to blow up in Kylo's face, it's all over.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Darth_Awakened on Thu 21 Apr - 20:53

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@AnneNeville wrote:People have been assuming that the "turning against Luke" happened at some sort of school, making that event similar to Anakin's attack on the younglings. But what if that is not the case? If Ben was 23, there is another option . . . that during a battle between the Jedi and the FO, Ben switched sides (becoming Kylo Ren/Jedi Killer). It would be similar to the move that cost Richard III the Battle of Bosworth: one wing of his army held back, then went to Henry Lancaster, leading to Richard III's destruction.

I think that scenario would fit the evidence we have been given so far, too. It also puts a very different color on the betrayal, because there is a difference between murdering fellow students in an ambush, and changing sides in a battle (especially if from Kylo/Ben's point of view, the Jedi were engaging in an evil act or fighting for the wrong thing). It would make a stronger parallel between Kylo and Finn (who I believe was 23ish in the movie), perhaps explaining Kylo's moment in the village, when (to some) he seems to identify with Finn and walks away anyway.

It adds extra color to the "traitor" line, too.
@AnneNeville

I just answered a similar post from you in another thread. I agree. I think Kylo could literally be one faction with one idealogy and Luke be representing another
. It doesn't make it cute, but it does take it out of that terrible Anakin massacre realm and puts it squarely into the two armed, opposing factions realm which is less murder and more war.

And good thoughts about Finn!!!! Kylo would understand that moment of profound disagreement ... and thus lets Finn go ... thereby giving Finn some modicum of respect ... but when Finn causes everything to blow up in Kylo's face, it's all over.
@SoloSideCousin

I have been quite resereved as far as the speculation on Luke s, the "massacre" or whatever it was, and finally Luke s escape.
The info we have so far is minor and can be explain in millions of ways.

But few points are clear:
1. Luke has vanished, upon the events - which is very interesting thing - because with war still going (or just starting?), his sister leading the Resistance and very much in the game - to me it looks very much out of character for Luke to just run away no matter how the circumstances looked though. It is definitely not the same situation in Galaxy as it was when Anakin turned, most of jedis have been destroyed, Empire having all the power and the army of clones on their side - and consequently Yoda and Obi Van were forced to ran away and hide.
So, that would be my first question: why Luke felt a need to vanish and hide to some totally remote place, and telling almost nobody (we know that from Han and opening roll) where he is hiding. - It is more than mistery to me.
2. It seems to me (due to the bits of Bloodline) that all the bad things started with politics (which at first glance has nothing to do with Luke s possible spiritual teaching of the Force).
Somehow I think that maybe Kylo/Ben (heavily influenced by Snoke) but still his mother son - had some ideas in the area of politics and ways of ruling the Galaxy (...Let me finish what you started..).And possibly he confronted Luke with his ideas.

So, these are two things I am thinking about the most - not how the "massacre" happened but what was the cause and trigger for it. And of course: what was so desperate that Luke Skywalker decided to ran away from everything and everybody.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 21 Apr - 21:05

@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@AnneNeville wrote:People have been assuming that the "turning against Luke" happened at some sort of school, making that event similar to Anakin's attack on the younglings. But what if that is not the case? If Ben was 23, there is another option . . . that during a battle between the Jedi and the FO, Ben switched sides (becoming Kylo Ren/Jedi Killer). It would be similar to the move that cost Richard III the Battle of Bosworth: one wing of his army held back, then went to Henry Lancaster, leading to Richard III's destruction.

I think that scenario would fit the evidence we have been given so far, too. It also puts a very different color on the betrayal, because there is a difference between murdering fellow students in an ambush, and changing sides in a battle (especially if from Kylo/Ben's point of view, the Jedi were engaging in an evil act or fighting for the wrong thing). It would make a stronger parallel between Kylo and Finn (who I believe was 23ish in the movie), perhaps explaining Kylo's moment in the village, when (to some) he seems to identify with Finn and walks away anyway.

It adds extra color to the "traitor" line, too.
@AnneNeville

I just answered a similar post from you in another thread. I agree. I think Kylo could literally be one faction with one idealogy and Luke be representing another
. It doesn't make it cute, but it does take it out of that terrible Anakin massacre realm and puts it squarely into the two armed, opposing factions realm which is less murder and more war.

And good thoughts about Finn!!!! Kylo would understand that moment of profound disagreement ... and thus lets Finn go ... thereby giving Finn some modicum of respect ... but when Finn causes everything to blow up in Kylo's face, it's all over.
@SoloSideCousin

I have been quite resereved as far as the speculation on Luke s, the "massacre" or whatever it was, and finally Luke s escape.
The info we have so far is minor and can be explain in millions of ways.

But few points are clear:
1. Luke has vanished, upon the events - which is very interesting thing - because with war still going (or just starting?), his sister leading the Resistance and very much in the game - to me it looks very much out of character for Luke to just run away no matter how the circumstances looked though. It is definitely not the same situation in Galaxy as it was when Anakin turned, most of jedis have been destroyed, Empire having all the power and the army of clones on their side - and consequently Yoda and Obi Van were forced to ran away and hide.
So, that would be my first question: why Luke felt a need to vanish and hide to some totally remote place, and telling almost nobody (we know that from Han and opening roll) where he is hiding. - It is more than mistery to me.
2. It seems to me (due to the bits of Bloodline) that all the bad things started with politics (which at first glance has nothing to do with Luke s possible spiritual teaching of the Force).
Somehow I think that maybe Kylo/Ben (heavily influenced by Snoke) but still his mother son - had some ideas in the area of politics and ways of ruling the Galaxy (...Let me finish what you started..).And possibly he confronted Luke with his ideas.

So, these are two things I am thinking about the most - not how the "massacre" happened but what was the cause and trigger for it. And of course: what was so desperate that Luke Skywalker decided to ran away from everything and everybody.

@Darth_Awakened

And this is a very good thought IMO, especially once we've taken the "massacre" as it were out of that "Anakin just kills everybody" because I don't know how they would ever bring Kylo back from something like that or how Leia and Han could still hope for him and actually invite him back home after something like that. However, if they ended up on differing sides of warring factions, even if they disagreed with his side in the war, they could bring him back into the fold. People have had to do that throughout history. In America we talk about the American Civil War with literally "brother against brother" type of fighting. This kind of thing has happened all over the world throughout history, but it's amazing what people can accept when there's family involved.

One of my favorite movies is The Lion in Winter. It stars Peter O'Toole, Katharine Hepburn and Anthony Hopkins among others. It's about King Henry II of England and his wife Eleanor of Aquitaine and their sons. Historically this couple actually raised war against each other, Henry with one son on his side, Eleanor with Richard the Lionheart on her side. Henry imprisoned Eleanor. And yet these people historically maintained some kind of contact with each other, even though their actions put the others life in danger. It's mind-boggling ... but it isn't ... because family is family ... and crazy medieval Space families have idealogy wars against each other Laughing . Of course Kylo breaks that rule, but that's another issue ... and frankly I think that will be his biggest sin that he needs to atone for ... But the good thing is that I do think Bloodlines will actually go a decent way to giving us a picture of the political landscape that is clear enough that we might be able to glean where Kylo is coming from politically.

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by EchoBase on Thu 21 Apr - 21:08

I checked the code names again. According to http://millenniumfalcon.com/, Luke was indeed called Original Warrior and the KOR Band of Dark Warriors. scratch
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Darth_Awakened on Thu 21 Apr - 21:36

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@AnneNeville wrote:People have been assuming that the "turning against Luke" happened at some sort of school, making that event similar to Anakin's attack on the younglings. But what if that is not the case? If Ben was 23, there is another option . . . that during a battle between the Jedi and the FO, Ben switched sides (becoming Kylo Ren/Jedi Killer). It would be similar to the move that cost Richard III the Battle of Bosworth: one wing of his army held back, then went to Henry Lancaster, leading to Richard III's destruction.

I think that scenario would fit the evidence we have been given so far, too. It also puts a very different color on the betrayal, because there is a difference between murdering fellow students in an ambush, and changing sides in a battle (especially if from Kylo/Ben's point of view, the Jedi were engaging in an evil act or fighting for the wrong thing). It would make a stronger parallel between Kylo and Finn (who I believe was 23ish in the movie), perhaps explaining Kylo's moment in the village, when (to some) he seems to identify with Finn and walks away anyway.

It adds extra color to the "traitor" line, too.
@AnneNeville

I just answered a similar post from you in another thread. I agree. I think Kylo could literally be one faction with one idealogy and Luke be representing another
. It doesn't make it cute, but it does take it out of that terrible Anakin massacre realm and puts it squarely into the two armed, opposing factions realm which is less murder and more war.

And good thoughts about Finn!!!! Kylo would understand that moment of profound disagreement ... and thus lets Finn go ... thereby giving Finn some modicum of respect ... but when Finn causes everything to blow up in Kylo's face, it's all over.
@SoloSideCousin

I have been quite resereved as far as the speculation on Luke s, the "massacre" or whatever it was, and finally Luke s escape.
The info we have so far is minor and can be explain in millions of ways.

But few points are clear:
1. Luke has vanished, upon the events - which is very interesting thing - because with war still going (or just starting?), his sister leading the Resistance and very much in the game - to me it looks very much out of character for Luke to just run away no matter how the circumstances looked though. It is definitely not the same situation in Galaxy as it was when Anakin turned, most of jedis have been destroyed, Empire having all the power and the army of clones on their side - and consequently Yoda and Obi Van were forced to ran away and hide.
So, that would be my first question: why Luke felt a need to vanish and hide to some totally remote place, and telling almost nobody (we know that from Han and opening roll) where he is hiding. - It is more than mistery to me.
2. It seems to me (due to the bits of Bloodline) that all the bad things started with politics (which at first glance has nothing to do with Luke s possible spiritual teaching of the Force).
Somehow I think that maybe Kylo/Ben (heavily influenced by Snoke) but still his mother son - had some ideas in the area of politics and ways of ruling the Galaxy (...Let me finish what you started..).And possibly he confronted Luke with his ideas.

So, these are two things I am thinking about the most - not how the "massacre" happened but what was the cause and trigger for it. And of course: what was so desperate that Luke Skywalker decided to ran away from everything and everybody.

@Darth_Awakened

And this is a very good thought IMO, especially once we've taken the "massacre" as it were out of that "Anakin just kills everybody" because I don't know how they would ever bring Kylo back from something like that or how Leia and Han could still hope for him and actually invite him back home after something like that. However, if they ended up on differing sides of warring factions, even if they disagreed with his side in the war, they could bring him back into the fold. People have had to do that throughout history. In America we talk about the American Civil War with literally "brother against brother" type of fighting. This kind of thing has happened all over the world throughout history, but it's amazing what people can accept when there's family involved.

One of my favorite movies is The Lion in Winter. It stars Peter O'Toole, Katharine Hepburn and Anthony Hopkins among others. It's about King Henry II of England and his wife Eleanor of Aquitaine and their sons. Historically this couple actually raised war against each other, Henry with one son on his side, Eleanor with Richard the Lionheart on her side. Henry imprisoned Eleanor. And yet these people historically maintained some kind of contact with each other, even though their actions put the others life in danger. It's mind-boggling ... but it isn't ... because family is family ... and crazy medieval Space families have idealogy wars against each other Laughing . Of course Kylo breaks that rule, but that's another issue ... and frankly I think that will be his biggest sin that he needs to atone for ... But the good thing is that I do think Bloodlines will actually go a decent way to giving us a picture of the political landscape that is clear enough that we might be able to glean where Kylo is coming from politically.

@SoloSideCousin

After all of the infos we got (which is apparently not enough to make some conclusions which would look at least plausible) I tend to believe that"massacre" was definitely not even near to Anakin s holy crusade against the Jedi Order. At least when it comes to the motifs - I think that Kylo s motifs for turning against Luke was something totally different, not desperate hungry for power as what was the Anakin s primal motif. I think it was some sort of intimate issue - and definitely in some relation with his mother and father (which heavily was manipulated and used by Snoke).
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by nonesuch on Sat 23 Apr - 19:26

The combination of the Bloodline information and the bits from the film is very, very interesting indeed. Let's look at what we have, in approximate chronological order:

Spoiler:
H: There was nothing we could've done. There was too much Vader in him.
L: That's why I wanted him to train with Luke. I just never should have sent him away. That's when I lost him. That's when I lost you both.

L: It was Snoke. He seduced our son to the dark side. But we can still save him. Me. You.

In Bloodline, Leia apparently says that she misses the days when she, Han and Ben lived together as a family.

Probable translation - Ben demonstrated dark side tendencies early on, presumably under Snoke's influence. At an unknown age (presumably in childhood/adolescence, given that his parents clearly still had authority over him), he is sent to his uncle for training to set him back on the right path. This is presumably the point at which the family was broken up, with Han and Leia (while still very much married and in love) spending more time apart as a result of their respective careers. This would potentially explain Leia's reference to losing both Ben and Han when Ben was sent away, though that comment is clearly heavily coloured by hindsight.

In Bloodline, Han and Leia apparently visit Ben regularly and keep in touch via holograph. There is, as far as we know at this point, no suggestion that Ben is still troubled at the age of 23. Leia seems to perceive no problems there, with her main concern being that she can't reach Ben and Luke.

At approximately the same time as the communications with Ben and Luke fail, the secret of Leia's parentage is publicly revealed, ruining her political career.

Probable translation - Either Luke's training was successful in steering Ben away from the dark, or Ben has successfully presented himself as having overcome his darker leanings, deceiving his master and fooling his parents into thinking he is a Jedi when he is actually solidly under Snoke's influence.

This means there are two central possibilities: either a Ben who was mostly committed to the light and loyal to his uncle flipped when he learned he'd been deceived about his lineage, killing his fellow students and defecting to Snoke and the First Order; or a Ben who had been pretending to be in the light had actually been preparing for the destruction. In this second scenario, we can assume that the communications blackout at the academy and the parentage reveal were coordinated as part of a planned campaign to discredit the Skywalker family in the most devastating and impactful way possible. Luke and Leia would be revealed as the children of the Sith Lord Darth Vader, Ben Solo would be revealed as the "Jedi Killer" and the new enforcer of the emergent First Order, and Luke Skywalker would be implicated as a failed teacher who was fooled by his own student.

I find the second scenario - where that the destruction was planned, rather than an impulsive act - more likely, mainly because I struggle to believe how the deception over Vader could - in and of itself - trigger an otherwise good and loyal 23-year-old student to turn dark and carry out a massacre. And if that is the case, it indicates that Ben turned to the dark side between his being left and his destroying the academy. And the big question that that raises is what precipitated his turn, since I don't - in this scenario - see it being something as vague or nebulous as abandonment issues/a lust for power. If the destruction was planned, there was evidently some kind of ideological justification there (in Ben's mind) that we have yet to appreciate.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Maria Antonietta on Sat 23 Apr - 19:38

@EchoBase wrote:I checked the code names again. According to http://millenniumfalcon.com/, Luke was indeed called Original Warrior and the KOR Band of Dark Warriors. scratch
@EchoBase

Weird and exciting at the same time!
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by thejediskywalker on Thu 28 Apr - 18:38

Been thinking about this a lot and here's what I think happened after the Bloodline spoilers that
Spoiler:
the family's connection to Vader was kept secret and Leia was afraid of Ben's reaction when he found out. It's implied that he finds out when Leia is publically outed as Vader's daughter.

I think Ben was kidnapped and framed for the massacre. If the above spoiler is true, and Ben disappears in an apparent turn to the dark side, nobody is going to go looking for him because it's exactly what Leia always feared happening.

From Ben's point of view, he's kidnapped and taken, knows he's been framed, and held somewhere by Snoke where he's manipulated and slowly broken down into the monster we see in TFA, fuelled by his family not coming for him. I think that would seriously mess you up, if you were framed for something awful and everyone believes it of you, and nobody is coming to save you. Your war hero family writes you off just like that. Ben then gives into the dark side that he's been struggling with already because there's no other option for him at that point and hey, at least he has his grandfather.

It would explain why he's so conflicted and in so much pain and so angry.

Same if you look at it from Snoke's perspective. He sees an opportunity and takes it. Of course everyone is going to believe that Vader's grandson murdered everyone. He makes sure that Ben can never go home.

That's why when Han comes he tells him it's too late. And why he's so disappointed in his father, because he expected them to come for him years ago and they never did because they think he's terrible. And now he is terrible. I don't think he wants to kill Luke, either (Snoke does though). I think he wants to tell Luke that it wasn't him.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by BastilaBey on Thu 28 Apr - 18:51

@thejediskywalker You're breaking my heart, here.

I'm torn between him being framed, or having had to kill in self defense because the other students attacked him once they found out he was Vader's heir. Either way, very traumatic for Ben and you're right - he could have hoped his family would come for him and they never did. Snoke would have taken advantage of those thoughts and fed into his alienation and loneliness until he felt like he had nothing left but to fulfill Vader's plans.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by panki on Thu 28 Apr - 19:22



Both scenarios are heartbreaking....

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