What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by MeadowofAshes on Thu 5 May - 2:48

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:So @MyOnlyHope directed me to something from Pablo's Visual Dictionary today (something that was actually made clear in the movie but that I personally never noticed):





So the cowl Kylo wears is actually burned, not ripped. And we know from the same Dictionary that the robe was a remnant from his training days with Luke. This tiny bit of information honestly created a whole separate line of possibility for the temple "massacre" for me. Everybody always assumed "massacre" = Kylo killed them directly (or at the very least that we were expected to believe that) but upon re-watching the Force Back they made it pretty obvious that the temple actually burned down. Now, one could say that it burned down after the massacre, but then why is Kylo's robe singed? And so much? There's barely anything left of it (just the hood and part of the shoulder). So here's my thought: what if the fire was started and the temple burned down while the other Jedi (and potentially Kylo) were still inside, and Kylo abandoned them, saving himself and leaving them to die? This is potentially a really interesting answer for me because it would lay all the blame on Kylo, he could be called the "Jedi Killer", but the act itself wouldn't necessarily have been "evil" (at least not in a school-shooter type of way).

I don't know if it really means anything. The robe was presumably destroyed on Starkiller Base, but somehow the idea of it being so badly "singed" caught my attention.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Nice catch. Bloodlines has changed the way I think about how the "massacre" happened.
Spoiler:
Casterfo publicly announces she is Vader's daughter and Leia is outraged because Ben will find out in the most humiliating way possible since news will surely reach him before she can tell him herself
This leads me to lean more heavily toward the idea others on this forum had pitched about his fellow students turning against him and a fight breaking out. The information you noticed could easily fit in with this theory. AshGate would also make sense here; perhaps the ashes of those who turned against him are kept as a reminder of being too trusting. Also, his diatribe about murderers, traitors, and thieves. Just thinking aloud. Seems there's a trail of breadcrumbs leading to one thing and you've found one of the crumbs.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Thu 5 May - 2:51

@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:So @MyOnlyHope directed me to something from Pablo's Visual Dictionary today (something that was actually made clear in the movie but that I personally never noticed):





So the cowl Kylo wears is actually burned, not ripped. And we know from the same Dictionary that the robe was a remnant from his training days with Luke. This tiny bit of information honestly created a whole separate line of possibility for the temple "massacre" for me. Everybody always assumed "massacre" = Kylo killed them directly (or at the very least that we were expected to believe that) but upon re-watching the Force Back they made it pretty obvious that the temple actually burned down. Now, one could say that it burned down after the massacre, but then why is Kylo's robe singed? And so much? There's barely anything left of it (just the hood and part of the shoulder). So here's my thought: what if the fire was started and the temple burned down while the other Jedi (and potentially Kylo) were still inside, and Kylo abandoned them, saving himself and leaving them to die? This is potentially a really interesting answer for me because it would lay all the blame on Kylo, he could be called the "Jedi Killer", but the act itself wouldn't necessarily have been "evil" (at least not in a school-shooter type of way).

I don't know if it really means anything. The robe was presumably destroyed on Starkiller Base, but somehow the idea of it being so badly "singed" caught my attention.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Nice catch. Bloodlines has changed the way I think about how the "massacre" happened.
Spoiler:
Casterfo publicly announces she is Vader's daughter and Leia is outraged because Ben will find out in the most humiliating way possible since news will surely reach him before she can tell him herself
This leads me to lean more heavily toward the idea others on this forum had pitched about his fellow students turning against him and a fight breaking out. The information you noticed could easily fit in with this theory. AshGate would also make sense here; perhaps the ashes of those who turned against him are kept as a reminder of being too trusting. Also, his diatribe about murderers, traitors, and thieves. Just thinking aloud. Seems there's a trail of breadcrumbs leading to one thing and you've found one of the crumbs.
@MeadowofAshes

Those are fantastic catches. Even if Ben set the fire himself (for whatever reason), it's possible that he didn't intend for everyone to die.

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Sylvia Snow on Thu 5 May - 2:56

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:So @MyOnlyHope directed me to something from Pablo's Visual Dictionary today (something that was actually made clear in the movie but that I personally never noticed):





So the cowl Kylo wears is actually burned, not ripped. And we know from the same Dictionary that the robe was a remnant from his training days with Luke. This tiny bit of information honestly created a whole separate line of possibility for the temple "massacre" for me. Everybody always assumed "massacre" = Kylo killed them directly (or at the very least that we were expected to believe that) but upon re-watching the Force Back they made it pretty obvious that the temple actually burned down. Now, one could say that it burned down after the massacre, but then why is Kylo's robe singed? And so much? There's barely anything left of it (just the hood and part of the shoulder). So here's my thought: what if the fire was started and the temple burned down while the other Jedi (and potentially Kylo) were still inside, and Kylo abandoned them, saving himself and leaving them to die? This is potentially a really interesting answer for me because it would lay all the blame on Kylo, he could be called the "Jedi Killer", but the act itself wouldn't necessarily have been "evil" (at least not in a school-shooter type of way).

I don't know if it really means anything. The robe was presumably destroyed on Starkiller Base, but somehow the idea of it being so badly "singed" caught my attention.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Another scenario could be, Kylo did try to save some of the fellows padawans, he could used the robe to try to put the fire out. And he still wearing it up to now as a reminder of what happened that day. I want to said that some of the ashes could  be of those who have died in the temple,  JJ said that the ashes are of his victims so Kylo could have take upon the responsible for the fire and as @FrolickingFizzgig said, he still Jedi Killer and those fallen padawans could still be considered as his "victims"


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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Thu 5 May - 2:59

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:So @MyOnlyHope directed me to something from Pablo's Visual Dictionary today (something that was actually made clear in the movie but that I personally never noticed):





So the cowl Kylo wears is actually burned, not ripped. And we know from the same Dictionary that the robe was a remnant from his training days with Luke. This tiny bit of information honestly created a whole separate line of possibility for the temple "massacre" for me. Everybody always assumed "massacre" = Kylo killed them directly (or at the very least that we were expected to believe that) but upon re-watching the Force Back they made it pretty obvious that the temple actually burned down. Now, one could say that it burned down after the massacre, but then why is Kylo's robe singed? And so much? There's barely anything left of it (just the hood and part of the shoulder). So here's my thought: what if the fire was started and the temple burned down while the other Jedi (and potentially Kylo) were still inside, and Kylo abandoned them, saving himself and leaving them to die? This is potentially a really interesting answer for me because it would lay all the blame on Kylo, he could be called the "Jedi Killer", but the act itself wouldn't necessarily have been "evil" (at least not in a school-shooter type of way).

I don't know if it really means anything. The robe was presumably destroyed on Starkiller Base, but somehow the idea of it being so badly "singed" caught my attention.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Nice catch. Bloodlines has changed the way I think about how the "massacre" happened.
Spoiler:
Casterfo publicly announces she is Vader's daughter and Leia is outraged because Ben will find out in the most humiliating way possible since news will surely reach him before she can tell him herself
This leads me to lean more heavily toward the idea others on this forum had pitched about his fellow students turning against him and a fight breaking out. The information you noticed could easily fit in with this theory. AshGate would also make sense here; perhaps the ashes of those who turned against him are kept as a reminder of being too trusting. Also, his diatribe about murderers, traitors, and thieves. Just thinking aloud. Seems there's a trail of breadcrumbs leading to one thing and you've found one of the crumbs.
@MeadowofAshes

Those are fantastic catches.  Even if Ben set the fire himself (for whatever reason), it's possible that he didn't intend for everyone to die.
@ISeeAnIsland
I'm going to be totally honest here, I'm not a big fan of the self-defence theory. I don't want to set myself up for some huge "Kylo is actually a poor, defenceless victim" twist. Not only would I dislike that very much, there's a big difference between making a character sympathetic and making them pathetic. Maybe I'm not picturing it properly, but some bullying scenario with a 23-year-old just doesn't sound plausible to me. Kylo was not a defenceless teenager when he fell. I definitely think there's more to all this and the idea of the others dying in a fire is quite appealing to me, but Kylo is still the Jedi Killer as of right now. I don't think it's fair to paint a bunch of Luke's acolytes in a bad light just because it might make Kylo easier to redeem. It's too simple for me, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

The singed robe makes me think he didn't set the fire himself. Why would he do that if he was still in the building? At the very least, he wouldn't set a building on fire purposefully. Or maybe something else happened. Or maybe this is all wrong and I'm theorizing based on nothing.

The ashes are never being mentioned again, trust me. Pablo didn't even know what the ashes were.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Thu 5 May - 3:05

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:So @MyOnlyHope directed me to something from Pablo's Visual Dictionary today (something that was actually made clear in the movie but that I personally never noticed):





So the cowl Kylo wears is actually burned, not ripped. And we know from the same Dictionary that the robe was a remnant from his training days with Luke. This tiny bit of information honestly created a whole separate line of possibility for the temple "massacre" for me. Everybody always assumed "massacre" = Kylo killed them directly (or at the very least that we were expected to believe that) but upon re-watching the Force Back they made it pretty obvious that the temple actually burned down. Now, one could say that it burned down after the massacre, but then why is Kylo's robe singed? And so much? There's barely anything left of it (just the hood and part of the shoulder). So here's my thought: what if the fire was started and the temple burned down while the other Jedi (and potentially Kylo) were still inside, and Kylo abandoned them, saving himself and leaving them to die? This is potentially a really interesting answer for me because it would lay all the blame on Kylo, he could be called the "Jedi Killer", but the act itself wouldn't necessarily have been "evil" (at least not in a school-shooter type of way).

I don't know if it really means anything. The robe was presumably destroyed on Starkiller Base, but somehow the idea of it being so badly "singed" caught my attention.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Nice catch. Bloodlines has changed the way I think about how the "massacre" happened.
Spoiler:
Casterfo publicly announces she is Vader's daughter and Leia is outraged because Ben will find out in the most humiliating way possible since news will surely reach him before she can tell him herself
This leads me to lean more heavily toward the idea others on this forum had pitched about his fellow students turning against him and a fight breaking out. The information you noticed could easily fit in with this theory. AshGate would also make sense here; perhaps the ashes of those who turned against him are kept as a reminder of being too trusting. Also, his diatribe about murderers, traitors, and thieves. Just thinking aloud. Seems there's a trail of breadcrumbs leading to one thing and you've found one of the crumbs.
@MeadowofAshes

Those are fantastic catches.  Even if Ben set the fire himself (for whatever reason), it's possible that he didn't intend for everyone to die.
@ISeeAnIsland
I'm going to be totally honest here, I'm not a big fan of the self-defence theory. I don't want to set myself up for some huge "Kylo is actually a poor, defenceless victim" twist. Not only would I dislike that very much, there's a big difference between making a character sympathetic and making them pathetic. Maybe I'm not picturing it properly, but some bullying scenario with a 23-year-old just doesn't sound plausible to me. Kylo was not a defenceless teenager when he fell. I definitely think there's more to all this and the idea of the the others dying in a fire is quite appealing to me, but Kylo is still the Jedi Killer as of right now. I don't think it's fair to paint a bunch of Luke's acolytes in a bad light just because it might make Kylo easier to redeem. It's too simple for me, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

The singed robe makes me think he didn't set the fire himself. Why would he do that if he was still in the building? At the very least, he wouldn't set a building on fire purposefully. Or maybe something else happened. Or maybe this is all wrong and I'm theorizing based on nothing.

The ashes are never being mentioned again, trust me. Pablo didn't even know what the ashes were.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I don't necessarily buy the bullying thing if he was 23, either. Although as someone who was bullied in a professional workplace as an adult and has since read up on the subject, bullying can and does happen to adults.

Anyway, what I was thinking when I'd said "even if he set the fire himself", I was thinking more of him setting it in a blind rage and lashing out over something.

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Thu 5 May - 3:06

I'm suddenly wondering if there's a reason Kylo covers himself up with all those layers of black clothing. Is his whole torso burned? And does Luke even know Ben is alive? Does he think Ben died in the fire too, and he ran away because he couldn't face Han and Leia? Does he feel responsible because he thinks his nephew died?


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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by MeadowofAshes on Thu 5 May - 3:06

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:So @MyOnlyHope directed me to something from Pablo's Visual Dictionary today (something that was actually made clear in the movie but that I personally never noticed):





So the cowl Kylo wears is actually burned, not ripped. And we know from the same Dictionary that the robe was a remnant from his training days with Luke. This tiny bit of information honestly created a whole separate line of possibility for the temple "massacre" for me. Everybody always assumed "massacre" = Kylo killed them directly (or at the very least that we were expected to believe that) but upon re-watching the Force Back they made it pretty obvious that the temple actually burned down. Now, one could say that it burned down after the massacre, but then why is Kylo's robe singed? And so much? There's barely anything left of it (just the hood and part of the shoulder). So here's my thought: what if the fire was started and the temple burned down while the other Jedi (and potentially Kylo) were still inside, and Kylo abandoned them, saving himself and leaving them to die? This is potentially a really interesting answer for me because it would lay all the blame on Kylo, he could be called the "Jedi Killer", but the act itself wouldn't necessarily have been "evil" (at least not in a school-shooter type of way).

I don't know if it really means anything. The robe was presumably destroyed on Starkiller Base, but somehow the idea of it being so badly "singed" caught my attention.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Nice catch. Bloodlines has changed the way I think about how the "massacre" happened.
Spoiler:
Casterfo publicly announces she is Vader's daughter and Leia is outraged because Ben will find out in the most humiliating way possible since news will surely reach him before she can tell him herself
This leads me to lean more heavily toward the idea others on this forum had pitched about his fellow students turning against him and a fight breaking out. The information you noticed could easily fit in with this theory. AshGate would also make sense here; perhaps the ashes of those who turned against him are kept as a reminder of being too trusting. Also, his diatribe about murderers, traitors, and thieves. Just thinking aloud. Seems there's a trail of breadcrumbs leading to one thing and you've found one of the crumbs.
@MeadowofAshes

Those are fantastic catches. Even if Ben set the fire himself (for whatever reason), it's possible that he didn't intend for everyone to die.
@ISeeAnIsland

And to clarify I'm not in the "Poor Ben had to defend himself from bullies" camp. Leia sent him to Luke because he was already struggling with the Dark Side and Snoke's influence. I don't imagine Prince Ben Solo being easy to get along with in the first place. But the Jedi school being a new thing, these presumably aren't going to be perfect infallible type Jedi who've been separated from their parents as toddlers and sequestered at the Jedi Temple. I would imagine they're more Ben's age, give or take. And consider how adults reacted toward Leia in Bloodlines. It wasn't violent, but it wasn't pretty either. Then you've got Ben with his temper, also mentioned in the excerpt @FrolickingFizzgig posted. Just get Luke off on some mission and this situation is bound to explode. Shoot, the other students giving him sith about being Vader blood might be how he finds out in the first place and blind rage takes him over. (I have headcanon of Ben overhearing his parents talking about his Dark nature - you know he must have overheard that at some point). Everything he's always feared about himself is true, so combine great fear with great anger and we have a situation ripe for violence. A fire is caused and Ben escapes, but the others are caught in the fire. He then returns at some point to collect their ashes.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by BastilaBey on Thu 5 May - 3:07

I've been one to consider the self defense theory in the past, but perhaps that's not the right phrasing. What I've meant is that the other students don't take the Vader reveal well, confront Ben and it turns into a fight. Ben, we know, is incredibly powerful and possibly just went too far. I honestly can't imagine him having previously been a good little Jedi - both his parents have fierce tempers and it sounds like he grew up in a household where there was a lot of arguing. While we see his temper tantrums as Kylo, I can imagine that anger was always inside even if it wasn't expressed. It could have all come out in this one moment and he just lost it. He'd still be 'to blame' but it wouldn't necessarily have been premeditated or had a larger political end.


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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Mana on Thu 5 May - 3:08

I don't know...something makes me wonder if Luke himself set the fire



There's just something about the way it was shown in the force vision....
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by MeadowofAshes on Thu 5 May - 3:12

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:I'm suddenly wondering if there's a reason Kylo covers himself up with all those layers of black clothing. Is his whole torso burned? And does Luke even know Ben is alive? Does he think Ben died in the fire too, and he ran away because he couldn't face Han and Leia? Does he feel responsible because he thinks his nephew died?
@FrolickingFizzgig

Surely he'd feel it through the Force that his own nephew was still alive though?
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Jozie on Thu 5 May - 3:12

Wow, you guys are really on to something here!

I also dislike the self-defence theory, but Kylo leaving his fellow students to die in flames seems equally bad to me. I think the "massacre" is his fault, but he didn't really mean it to happen. I think the fire could be an effect of some terrible accident that occurred because of Kylo and he later feels he has no choice but turn to the Dark Side. Kind of like "The Lion King", when Simba runs away cause Scar told him he's to blame for the death of his father and his mother will hate him. Snoke would surely tell Kylo stuff like that.

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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Thu 5 May - 3:14

@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:So @MyOnlyHope directed me to something from Pablo's Visual Dictionary today (something that was actually made clear in the movie but that I personally never noticed):





So the cowl Kylo wears is actually burned, not ripped. And we know from the same Dictionary that the robe was a remnant from his training days with Luke. This tiny bit of information honestly created a whole separate line of possibility for the temple "massacre" for me. Everybody always assumed "massacre" = Kylo killed them directly (or at the very least that we were expected to believe that) but upon re-watching the Force Back they made it pretty obvious that the temple actually burned down. Now, one could say that it burned down after the massacre, but then why is Kylo's robe singed? And so much? There's barely anything left of it (just the hood and part of the shoulder). So here's my thought: what if the fire was started and the temple burned down while the other Jedi (and potentially Kylo) were still inside, and Kylo abandoned them, saving himself and leaving them to die? This is potentially a really interesting answer for me because it would lay all the blame on Kylo, he could be called the "Jedi Killer", but the act itself wouldn't necessarily have been "evil" (at least not in a school-shooter type of way).

I don't know if it really means anything. The robe was presumably destroyed on Starkiller Base, but somehow the idea of it being so badly "singed" caught my attention.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Nice catch. Bloodlines has changed the way I think about how the "massacre" happened.
Spoiler:
Casterfo publicly announces she is Vader's daughter and Leia is outraged because Ben will find out in the most humiliating way possible since news will surely reach him before she can tell him herself
This leads me to lean more heavily toward the idea others on this forum had pitched about his fellow students turning against him and a fight breaking out. The information you noticed could easily fit in with this theory. AshGate would also make sense here; perhaps the ashes of those who turned against him are kept as a reminder of being too trusting. Also, his diatribe about murderers, traitors, and thieves. Just thinking aloud. Seems there's a trail of breadcrumbs leading to one thing and you've found one of the crumbs.
@MeadowofAshes

Those are fantastic catches. Even if Ben set the fire himself (for whatever reason), it's possible that he didn't intend for everyone to die.
@ISeeAnIsland

And to clarify I'm not in the "Poor Ben had to defend himself from bullies" camp. Leia sent him to Luke because he was already struggling with the Dark Side and Snoke's influence. I don't imagine Prince Ben Solo being easy to get along with in the first place. But the Jedi school being a new thing, these presumably aren't going to be perfect infallible type Jedi who've been separated from their parents as toddlers and sequestered at the Jedi Temple. I would imagine they're more Ben's age, give or take. And consider how adults reacted toward Leia in Bloodlines. It wasn't violent, but it wasn't pretty either. Then you've got Ben with his temper, also mentioned in the excerpt @FrolickingFizzgig posted. Just get Luke off on some mission and this situation is bound to explode. Shoot, the other students giving him sith about being Vader blood might be how he finds out in the first place and blind rage takes him over. (I have headcanon of Ben overhearing his parents talking about his Dark nature - you know he must have overheard that at some point). Everything he's always feared about himself is true, so combine great fear with great anger and we have a situation ripe for violence. A fire is caused and Ben escapes, but the others are caught in the fire. He then returns at some point to collect their ashes.
@MeadowofAshes
Pablo didn't even know what the ashes were (he didn't add them to the Visual Dictionary at all). They're never going to be mentioned again if you ask me, just a small clip from a discarded scene that JJ decided to keep. And I highly doubt they would play any kind of role in his backstory.

I really don't think this is the scenario the writers are going to go for. It feels wrong to me on a few levels, but that's just me. I just highly doubt they're going to paint all these followers of Luke in such a horrible light, especially because they would actually have to flesh out context, why, how, etc. I'm really just not fond of the idea...
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Thu 5 May - 3:19

@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:I'm suddenly wondering if there's a reason Kylo covers himself up with all those layers of black clothing. Is his whole torso burned? And does Luke even know Ben is alive? Does he think Ben died in the fire too, and he ran away because he couldn't face Han and Leia? Does he feel responsible because he thinks his nephew died?
@FrolickingFizzgig

Surely he'd feel it through the Force that his own nephew was still alive though?
@MeadowofAshes
I don't really know. I think they could make it work, especially if Snoke was involved.

@Jozie
I don't mean he stood and watched them burn, just that he ran away from the burning temple in order to save his own life. This would really play into Kylo's self-centered nature (though I'm not certain if that was something he developed post-massacre or not). We're going to have to wait and see, but I'm definitely not talking straight-up arson here, something more complex.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by BastilaBey on Thu 5 May - 3:21

I don't know about it painting them in a bad light, it sounds quite plausible to me. Think about it, this young man turns up to join your school and even though you know he's your master's nephew, you can sense the dark side in him. Perhaps you can even tell that someone like Snoke is manipulating him, has been for years. Then, while Luke's away, they find out this man is descended from Vader and it almost makes sense how Ben is. You'd be terrified, right? The Jedi knight who was the chosen one, who then fell to the dark side and was responsible for countless deaths. I can't blame them for wanting to confront Ben, the way the other politicians treat Leia is unfortunately no surprise either, sad as it is.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Kessel on Thu 5 May - 3:25

This is all really interesting guys! Great catch on the fact Kylo's cowl is singed and not ripped. That certainly piques my interest because why was it burned? That implies he was around fire (people don't normally walk into through fires) and we saw a fire in that temple scene.

I haven't seriously considered what happened at Luke's temple other than what we've been told to believe (just because I want to wait and see), but I think a twist is very possible.

Also, not to add conjecture on top of conjecture, but if there is more to the temple massacre/burning and there is a force bond between Rey and Kylo, Rey would know the truth because she got it from Kylo's head. I wonder what the implications of that could be...
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Thu 5 May - 3:26

@BastilaBey wrote:I don't know about it painting them in a bad light, it sounds quite plausible to me. Think about it, this young man turns up to join their school and even though you know he's your master's nephew, you can sense the dark side in him. Perhaps you can even tell that someone like Snoke is manipulating him, has been for years. Then, while Luke's away, they find out this man is descended from Vader and it almost makes sense how Ben is. You'd be terrified, right? The Jedi knight who was the chosen one, who then fell to the dark side and was responsible for countless deaths. I can't blame them for wanting to confront Ben, the way the other politicians treat Leia is unfortunately no surprise either, sad as it is.
@BastilaBey
I just personally don't like the idea very much, but I won't be overly disappointed if this is the answer. It just feels really trivial to me, and I think it's easy to cast blame on other characters (especially unknown characters) when you have a certain character's interest or image at heart. The Rey Skywalker's do this all the time with Kylo (painting him as a teenaged pedophile, a school-shooter, a "bad seed" in countless illogical lineage theories). I still think it's going to end up being more political, but i guess we'll see. I might just not be picturing it properly. I keep imagining bullying for some reason, which is probably not what you guys are referring to.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by BastilaBey on Thu 5 May - 3:28

I hear you, I definitely don't think this would be the extent of the explanation, just throwing out ideas. If I'm right about the idea of Kylo finding out from his fellow students though, I can't imagine how utterly traumatizing that was for him. To not hear that from his parents, or his uncle who could explain that Vader was redeemed just before death...it would be like a nightmare. He'd feel like this was the explanation all along for why there was so much darkness in him, why his father always seemed a little afraid of his power and what He might become. It's kind of like a self fulfilling prophecy.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Thu 5 May - 3:30

@BastilaBey wrote:I hear you, I definitely don't think this would be the extent of the explanation, just throwing out ideas. If I'm right about the idea of Kylo finding out from his fellow students though, I can't imagine how utterly traumatizing that was for him. To not hear that from his parents, or his uncle who could explain that Vader was redeemed just before death...it would be like a nightmare. He'd feel like this was the explanation all along for why there was so much darkness in him, why his father always seemed a little afraid of his power and what He might become. It's kind of like a self fulfilling prophecy.
@BastilaBey
Yep, Force Sensitivity was never a gift to Kylo. It was a curse.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by Jozie on Thu 5 May - 3:45

@FrolickingFizzgig
Ok, I see what you mean and yeah, it could have gone down this way. But i sure hope it was more like Finn and Poe when they crashed... that Kylo failed to help them but at least tried. I dont know. It seems horrible to me that Kylo would escape from fire not helping anyone.

@BastilaBey
Yeah, exactly. He'd feel it was cruel for Luke and Leia to make him feel like his darkness was his own stupid fault when there was an explanation for it all along. Maybe he went to Luke to confront him about it, then one of them lost control and that's how the fire started? I also often imagined that Kylo, prompted by Snoke, would explore the Dark Side on his own (or maybe with other Jedi students who'd later became KoR), keeping it a secret from Luke/in spite of Luke forbidding it. So, the Vader reveal would be a catalyst for their conflict to become violent.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 5 May - 4:59

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:So @MyOnlyHope directed me to something from Pablo's Visual Dictionary today (something that was actually made clear in the movie but that I personally never noticed):





So the cowl Kylo wears is actually burned, not ripped. And we know from the same Dictionary that the robe was a remnant from his training days with Luke. This tiny bit of information honestly created a whole separate line of possibility for the temple "massacre" for me. Everybody always assumed "massacre" = Kylo killed them directly (or at the very least that we were expected to believe that) but upon re-watching the Force Back they made it pretty obvious that the temple actually burned down. Now, one could say that it burned down after the massacre, but then why is Kylo's robe singed? And so much? There's barely anything left of it (just the hood and part of the shoulder). So here's my thought: what if the fire was started and the temple burned down while the other Jedi (and potentially Kylo) were still inside, and Kylo abandoned them, saving himself and leaving them to die? This is potentially a really interesting answer for me because it would lay all the blame on Kylo, he could be called the "Jedi Killer", but the act itself wouldn't necessarily have been "evil" (at least not in a school-shooter type of way).

I don't know if it really means anything. The robe was presumably destroyed on Starkiller Base, but somehow the idea of it being so badly "singed" caught my attention.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Actually, if the Reddit spoiler
Spoiler:
the one about Luke blowing up or someone blowing up the hut
has any truth
Spoiler:
then maybe in a fit of anger Kylo or Luke actually blew something up around the temple, causing a fire
.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Thu 5 May - 5:09

Assuming that "Fire at the temple" played a part in the "temple massacre", does anyone have any thoughts on how Lor San Tekka might have fit into this?

I'm wondering if there might be a scenario where Luke himself was away and LST was left in charge, or something like that.

_________________
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 5 May - 5:16

@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:So @MyOnlyHope directed me to something from Pablo's Visual Dictionary today (something that was actually made clear in the movie but that I personally never noticed):





So the cowl Kylo wears is actually burned, not ripped. And we know from the same Dictionary that the robe was a remnant from his training days with Luke. This tiny bit of information honestly created a whole separate line of possibility for the temple "massacre" for me. Everybody always assumed "massacre" = Kylo killed them directly (or at the very least that we were expected to believe that) but upon re-watching the Force Back they made it pretty obvious that the temple actually burned down. Now, one could say that it burned down after the massacre, but then why is Kylo's robe singed? And so much? There's barely anything left of it (just the hood and part of the shoulder). So here's my thought: what if the fire was started and the temple burned down while the other Jedi (and potentially Kylo) were still inside, and Kylo abandoned them, saving himself and leaving them to die? This is potentially a really interesting answer for me because it would lay all the blame on Kylo, he could be called the "Jedi Killer", but the act itself wouldn't necessarily have been "evil" (at least not in a school-shooter type of way).

I don't know if it really means anything. The robe was presumably destroyed on Starkiller Base, but somehow the idea of it being so badly "singed" caught my attention.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Nice catch. Bloodlines has changed the way I think about how the "massacre" happened.
Spoiler:
Casterfo publicly announces she is Vader's daughter and Leia is outraged because Ben will find out in the most humiliating way possible since news will surely reach him before she can tell him herself
This leads me to lean more heavily toward the idea others on this forum had pitched about his fellow students turning against him and a fight breaking out. The information you noticed could easily fit in with this theory. AshGate would also make sense here; perhaps the ashes of those who turned against him are kept as a reminder of being too trusting. Also, his diatribe about murderers, traitors, and thieves. Just thinking aloud. Seems there's a trail of breadcrumbs leading to one thing and you've found one of the crumbs.
@MeadowofAshes


Brilliant synthesizing! I don't know if it will work out, but I love when people on this board put pieces together in awesome ways!

Also, a couple things, regarding Ben's darkness and being sent to Luke, in Bloodlines,
Spolier:
Leia never has a moment when she thinks of Ben in some worried way.  She never ever says anything like she is reminded of Vader with Ben, nothing.  I think this means (1) Ben is not as bad as we thought and Luke maybe did something and Ben is taking the blame ... Luke really does seem off the grid with Ben ... For all we know Luke went crazy and Ben was stuck in the middle of nowhere with him ... thinking of this more in light of the Hutslayer spoiler ... He could resent the parents a lot about that or (2) Ben actually got some control over the Snoke whispering while with Luke, but then when the Vader thing comes out he gets so upset and his trust falls so badly, Snoke can swoop back in and Ben is the one that exhibits the explosive power and blows something up and gets people killed and runs in guilt and self-hatred
.  Adding to this ... Kylo/Ben has already exhibited some new powers.  This is a total guess, but what if when he is in a bad way he came be a firestarter and/or make things explode.  The singing has to be there for a reason.  It has to be, especially when Luke is pictured in a fiery scene near the burning Jedi temple.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 5 May - 5:20

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:Assuming that "Fire at the temple" played a part in the "temple massacre", does anyone have any thoughts on how Lor San Tekka might have fit into this?

I'm wondering if there might be a scenario where Luke himself was away and LST was left in charge, or something like that.
@ISeeAnIsland

I could totally see that. Luke is off searching for jedi lore in Bloodline. I bet LST was around frequently. He seems to like Leia ... and he mentions the royalty thing ... and he seems to try to bring Ben back a little during the Jakku scene, but Ben reacts so badly to him, and says things in the book that reveal prior bad blood, I am thinking LST wasn't at his best during whatever went down with Luke's temple. I wonder if they will bring back von Sydow for flashbacks. A pretty serious actor for 3 lines. Maybe von Sydow didn't care and just drove to Pinewood ... but still.
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by snufkin on Thu 5 May - 5:33

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
Brilliant synthesizing! I don't know if it will work out, but I love when people on this board put pieces together in awesome ways!

After my first walking out of the theater and feeling like "WTF did I just see?" I tried looking around for the 2.5 months worth of articles and internet discussions. What's been said here by far is above and beyond in terms of being thoughtful and intelligent. Not to mention in such a warm, civil manner.

I'd almost love a way to keep track of what's collectively been conjectured/figured out in terms of the different puzzles for the central mysteries (people missing what's set up for Rey/Ren, Snoke's endgame, who Rey is and how she ended up on Jakku, this thread's topic) with the analysis and 'breadcrumbs.'
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Re: What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 5 May - 5:44

@snufkin wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
Brilliant synthesizing! I don't know if it will work out, but I love when people on this board put pieces together in awesome ways!

After my first walking out of the theater and feeling like "WTF did I just see?" I tried looking around for the 2.5 months worth of articles and internet discussions. What's been said here by far is above and beyond in terms of being thoughtful and intelligent. Not to mention in such a warm, civil manner.

I'd almost love a way to keep track of what's collectively been conjectured/figured out in terms of the different puzzles for the central mysteries (people missing what's set up for Rey/Ren, Snoke's endgame, who Rey is and how she ended up on Jakku, this thread's topic) with the analysis and 'breadcrumbs.'
@snufkin

I was thinking the exact same thing about organizing things together. I thought about it first in terms of @vaderito's visual metas and how they need to be archived. But I also thought about people's theories. Because the threads are spread out certain theories get repeated, which is awesome, because that's how they are refined, but it would be nice to see the pathway set out somewhere. Who is good at organizing compilations? We might be able to go through our old posts and put down some theories that could be archived somewhere. It would be a chore for sure, but if we had certain topic titles it might make it easier? I am not great at this kind of thing. My desk is always a mess, and I'm very disorganized, but I know people have this talent. My mother used to have it ... (I rebelled against her uber-organization, so I decidedly don't have it), so I know someone out there has the mind for this kind of thing.
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