No central romance my S

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No central romance my S

Post by AceofWands on Sat 21 Oct 2017, 7:48 pm

So in the dreaded Vanity Fair article Rian Johnson stated that there's no central romance in TLJ, and that in this movie, romance is not a central piece. Fair enough.

Now we get the marketing, and we get Reylo dolls, Reylo perfume, Reylo playlists. Rian comes out to say Rey and Kylo are two halves of a protagonist.

Then we get the trailer, which is basically about these two young people in conflict with their raw power. These two characters being compared, paralleled. At the end of the trailer, one of them makes a gesture that is clearly romantic towards the other. That's the trailer.

If TLJ is about Rey and Kylo finding themselves them eventually coming together, even if they don't kiss, how is their relationship not central? Or is it that Rian only considers romance when he sees banter and flirting? Or is it that there's some twist?

Really, I'm mind boggled.

For us,who have for the most part believed that there's a romantic arc between Rey and Kylo in the ST, the poster, teaser and trailer SURPRISED us! It was a lot more favourable to Reylo than even we expected. One year and a half ago, not even us would have predicted the marketing and everything else being so favourable to Reylo. That's why I think the movie will be surprising as well.

Rey and Kylo's connection is central to TLJ and the Sequel Trilogy. The romantic arc is there. Regardless if Kylo is rejected, his gesture is romantic, so the romantic arc is there. How is that not a central romance?

Anyone have a guess? Is Rian thick and literal that a romance for him has to have a kiss in the middle and in the end? Is it that he meant "no Han and Leia style central romance?" But he also said "that's not a central piece" when referring to romance. Is it that he straight up lied? Is it that he has a very different understanding on what is romance and what is central? (One could debate for instance how central Han and Leia was to ESB. I disagree it was central, but Rian Johnson clearly thinks it was).

I don't know. It's not that I'm counting victory too soon, but Rey and Kylo will have a very important connection and relationship, and the romantic undertones are already there, in your face, in the trailer. At this point, of course, hopefully there's a twist and it all sours in the third act (for drama!!!), but there's something there for sure.

My theory is: No central romance my s .

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Re: No central romance my S

Post by Xylo Ren on Sat 21 Oct 2017, 8:04 pm

I think the word "romance" has different meanings to different people.

Rian posted two songs from West Side Story on his Twitter. I'd consider that a traditional romance with a somewhat shallow depth (they love each other because...they're both beautiful?), lots of kissing, hugging, "don't leave me!", "let's run away together", "I'll love you forever" etc. stuff.

Kylo and Rey's connection will be way deeper than that, on a scale that we've surely never seen before. It makes sense that this movie will not be a kissy kiss fest with longing and "she's so beautiful" and "are you an angel?" type things we usually see in romances.

She's going to turn to him for help because everyone else will reject her. She'll feel like a monster because she'll be unable to control her raw power. She'll turn to the one person who has not only offered to train her already, but someone who has been through the same types of struggles as her. Kylo, who had parents who didn't understand him, and an uncle who couldn't reach him.

Kylo will have compassion on her and through their exploration of the Force they will learn more about each other and their "place" in all of this. TLJ will set the trail for more deeper feelings to develop in IX.

Definitely not your typical "Romeo and Juliet" Wink
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Re: No central romance my S

Post by Irina de France on Sat 21 Oct 2017, 8:26 pm

I think it really boils down to what Rian means by "central romance".

Because, sure, you could tell me that I'm analyzing his words too much, but he went out of his way to explain that he never said there was "no romance", but that it wasn't a Han/Leia style romance and that it wasn't a centerpiece.

Han/Leia style romance? I'll 100% agree on that one. Sure, there might be some snippy banter between Rey and Kylo, because Kylo inherited his parents' snark and Rey isn't going to let herself get intimidated by him, but they won't take it all the way to the old Hollywood screwball comedy style Han and Leia had. Those two were definitely the best part of ESB (I always snoozed at the parts with Luke and Yoda tbh), but they spent three years together prior. They knew each other pretty well by the time of ESB, and it was also made very clear that the rebels all knew about their antics (just that guy who cuts through them during an argument... priceless). ESB is basically the result of what we saw the beginning of in ANH, and romance was pretty much all that Han and Leia had throughout the movie. Everything Han did was for Leia, no matter what, even if it meant getting himself into trouble.

People complain about them becoming kind of stale in ROTJ, but the explanation is that ROTJ is really Luke and Vader's movie (and ironically, for all the criticism it gets, it's also the movie where Leia gets the most action scenes). Doesn't help either that George Lucas won over Lawrence Kasdan and that the idea was that Han and Lando were going to die.

As for Rey and Kylo... it's complicated. I wouldn't call them *sworn enemies*, because the root of the problem, as it was so eloquently said, is that Rey doesn't understand why on Earth Kylo would turn on parents as wonderful as Han and Leia. Obviously, she has a journey to do from there. Kylo, being a Skywalker AND a Solo, is infatuated, because when it comes to the men in that family, it's love at first sight. There's still a similar pattern here, in which the lady takes a bit more time to respond to the guy's advances. But Rey has a long way to go.

I don't think it will be as long as some people imply it to be: I can't help but think there's been too much of a big deal made about "Rey will have to go a long way before forgiving the guy who killed her father figure", for the simple and good reason that a) she knew him for like, a day and b) Han wasn't that nice to her and in retrospect it actually makes it all pretty sad for Rey. I abandoned a fic or two because I was tired of seeing the issue of Han come back at chapter 34. Is it going to be a big deal? Yes, but that's more because Rey doesn't understand for now that "patricide is not what it's all cracked up to be". So once that's gone...

Once that's gone, they have their own issues to deal with. Kylo killed his own father, and judging by his kicked puppy looks and the dark circles under his eyes, it effed him up to the point of depression. If the Force-plosion thing is true, he probably also sees himself (and maybe Luke?) as responsible for killing his fellow students. I wouldn't be surprised if the poor kid has PTSD, and the only emotional support he has in all this is slashing stuff when he gets angry to avoid hurting other people like That Time With Uncle Luke, and his grandpa's half-melted helmet. The very person who may have promised him to gain control on his powers turns out to be some old creeper who just wants to use him for God knows what, and it's so painfully obvious his non-Force sensitive dad put that under his nose before dying.

Rey displays the same raw power as he does, and she's just starting to discover it. The more the time goes, the more I'm convinced that raw power definitely has something to do with why she ended up all alone on Jakku, and she's probably in denial about that (hence why she's so insistent on going back to Jakku). Luke rejecting her is just going to re-open old wounds, and considering Rey is the type of girl who'll bottle up negative emotions as a means to survive, if those bottled up emotions come out, it's going to be explosive, and it won't be pretty.

The whole point of those two kids' journey is to "let go of the past". To do that, you need emotional support, and neither of them had that before, but they have each other now. So sure, I think that throughout that time they are together on Ahch-To, there might be long glances, elevator eyes, dialogue that *could* be interpreted as flirting, and the FoD episode with the two of them is probably going to be relatively light-hearted. They're two attractive young people, who have displayed to a certain extent that they found each other attractive, Thing is, they need to come to a point where they can tell themselves: "Hey, maybe we are messed up, we probably are, but at least we have each other."

Overall, with all the marketing and the comments from the cast and crew that has been mentioned above, I definitely wouldn't rule out "romance" in TLJ. I just think personally that Act II is going to be the two of them getting to know each other as people, and if Act III is super action packed, angst can make feelings develop a lot faster than usual and I could see a love declaration or a kiss happen then. So Rey and Kylo's relationship is definitely a centerpiece, but the romance aspect is pretty much the result of their development with one another throughout the film.

Long-*ss rant, but that's how I see it, lol.

EDIT: I'll also add that several people referred to Jyn and Cassian as "colleagues". But again, if you read the novelization, and if you pay attention to the body language throughout the film, and then the elevator scene and the beach, it's DEFINITELY not the case. Though Jyn and Cassian are a tragic case of a romance "that could have been".

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Re: No central romance my S

Post by Atenais on Sat 21 Oct 2017, 8:36 pm

For me, Star Wars is not about romance, but about how life (the species) happens in a world where we have something like the Force. Not only love is part of this caldron, but all feelings: hate, ambition, indifference, fear, etc, etc. Said that, the trilogies are telling us about how one family - the Skywalkers - influence this brief period of time.

The new trilogy brings something new with these two characters, that are experiencing something with the Force that we didn't see before. And I believe the story is about what they are experiencing and how it connects them. It's new and amazing, but this connection doesn't need to be forcefully romantic. Can be much more, something mystical that will not fit in our expectation of "romance". And I am ok with that.
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Re: No central romance my S

Post by Guest on Sat 21 Oct 2017, 8:36 pm

Of course it's a central romance. Of COURSE it is. But it's like the Kentucky Derby. When you have a prize stallion, you don't unleash it until the bell dings, and then you open that pen and let it run. Rian knows what he's doing. The one thing I'll say is this. I know romance. I write it, all the time, professionally. I know that the best trope out there is enemies-to-lovers, and if it's done slowly, with a build up and strong writing, that it can be very powerful. It's the one trope I haven't touched in my own writing yet, because if you do it, it should be strong and powerful. I do think Reylo is the central romance of this trilogy, but it's a slow burn. My personal belief is that they will start something in 8 (and I do think they'll kiss), and it will be full blown in 9. But the great thing about Reylo is that both Rey and Kylo Ren/Ben are so complex as characters, and each have something pivotal to bring to the table. They have their own character arcs, and that's a beautiful thing. Han and Leia were iconic, but it was too easy for both of them to get together, and it wasn't fully cooked. Reylo will be. As long as they keep it real and deeply rooted in their connection, it has the potential to be one of the most memorable relationships in the SW franchise. Rian said there was no Leia/Han-type romance, and there's not. He didn't say there was no spark between Rey and Kylo Ren. It's all about context. Wink I love this thread.

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Re: No central romance my S

Post by Guest on Sat 21 Oct 2017, 8:45 pm

I believe Rian spoke in earnest and knows the difference between what is romance and what isn’t. But then, I’m personally not expecting much in the way of blatant romance in TLJ from either Finn and Rose or Rey and Kylo. I can certainly see from the trailer that there are scenes, depending on the context, that could play heavily into romantic themes. We still know so little about this movie, though, and my expectations were low on the romance front way before that Vanity Fair article. There are other interpretations for the merchandising and positioning of what we see as Reylo. I’m not saying they are right and we are wrong, but I’m not going to let myself get carried away until I know what’s what. BTW, I’m not telling anyone else to check their expectations, I just prefer to go in not expecting much because then I won’t be disappointed, and I don’t cope well with disappointment.

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Re: No central romance my S

Post by IoJovi on Sat 21 Oct 2017, 8:52 pm

Great topic.  I think Rian really cleared it up with this tweet right here:

https://twitter.com/DannieGruff/status/868103090364456961

Rian says right here he was talking specifically about a "romantic Han and Leia STYLE" love story.  He's extremely specific here.  And if you read his actual quote from Vanity fair, it's an accurate statement.  Let's keep in mind that Han and Leia were hot and heavy pretty much from the beginning of ESB.  I think it's fairly obvious that won't be the case with Rey and Kylo.  They have far too much to overcome to be at that point at the beginning of TLJ.

Now let's go in further why this tweet excites me so much.  This was addressed specifically to a Reylo shipper, who to anyone in the GA, wouldn't have been recognized as such.   They used the words Force Bond to identify what they were getting at.  Rey and Kylo's names were never mentioned.  And yet, Rian seems to know exactly who they're referring to.  

Basically what it comes down to is TLJ is going to focus on Kylo going through all kinds of guilt and remorse, and in Rian's words, "ripped wide open."  TLJ is going to focus on the getting the audience on his side and rooting for him.  That's where it needs to be first and foremost before any hint of mutual affection can grow and blossom.  

The way I see it playing out is we are probably getting a huge red sign of romance at the very end of TLJ, be it a kiss, almost kiss, holding one another for a bit too long, or any other outward hint of what these two will mean to each other in the long run.  

I'll also add I'm actually glad it's a slow burn.  If they started off to hot and heavy too early the movie, it might be more likely to end tragically.  A slow burn romance hints heavily at a happy ending for these two, leaving the door open for a new generation of Reylo babies Skywalker descendants.  I don't claim to have all the answers, but so far I'm very pleased with the way everything is shaping up.
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Re: No central romance my S

Post by tukicarreno on Sat 21 Oct 2017, 9:49 pm

@IoJovi wrote:Great topic.  I think Rian really cleared it up with this tweet right here:

https://twitter.com/DannieGruff/status/868103090364456961

Rian says right here he was talking specifically about a "romantic Han and Leia STYLE" love story.  He's extremely specific here.  And if you read his actual quote from Vanity fair, it's an accurate statement.  Let's keep in mind that Han and Leia were hot and heavy pretty much from the beginning of ESB.  I think it's fairly obvious that won't be the case with Rey and Kylo.  They have far too much to overcome to be at that point at the beginning of TLJ.

Now let's go in further why this tweet excites me so much.  This was addressed specifically to a Reylo shipper, who to anyone in the GA, wouldn't have been recognized as such.   They used the words Force Bond to identify what they were getting at.  Rey and Kylo's names were never mentioned.  And yet, Rian seems to know exactly who they're referring to.  

Basically what it comes down to is TLJ is going to focus on Kylo going through all kinds of guilt and remorse, and in Rian's words, "ripped wide open."  TLJ is going to focus on the getting the audience on his side and rooting for him.  That's where it needs to be first and foremost before any hint of mutual affection can grow and blossom.  

The way I see it playing out is we are probably getting a huge red sign of romance at the very end of TLJ, be it a kiss, almost kiss, holding one another for a bit too long, or any other outward hint of what these two will mean to each other in the long run.  

I'll also add I'm actually glad it's a slow burn.  If they started off to hot and heavy too early the movie, it might be more likely to end tragically.  A slow burn romance hints heavily at a happy ending for these two, leaving the door open for a new generation of Reylo babies Skywalker descendants.  I don't claim to have all the answers, but so far I'm very pleased with the way everything is shaping up.
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This is exactly what I´ve been thinking all along after Rian specified his tweet very clearly! All the pieces are falling together now and while it might be slowburn ; it will be the most epic romance in Star Wars. I also don´t rule out a kiss in TLJ. Most likely we will get one towards the end of the film.. I am so excited!! bounce I love you
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Re: No central romance my S

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sat 21 Oct 2017, 10:14 pm

Like everybody else is saying, I think it depends on how Rian defines romance. Remember, it's a heavy term that carries a lot of implications for most people, the biggest of which being that it must be both consensual and reciprocated. What Rey and Kylo have in TFA is certainly not a romance, and likewise with regards to TLJ. Their dynamic will absolutely be central, but I think there is a certain over-confidence pervading the fandom right now with regards to Reylo. It's not romance, not yet, and I would be surprised if they went all the way down the romance road in this movie. I think Rey is going to struggle with coming to terms with her similarities to Kylo--both in the Force and in her history--and Kylo is eventually going to see Rey as someone he desperately wants to help, but there's no be-all-end all rule that dictates their dynamic has to emerge 100% romantic. While the dance hand references an age-old gesture, it doesn't spell out romance. IMO, Rey and Kylo are going to be exactly what Rian has described, two sides of the dark and light and two halves of our protagonist. Theirs will be a central dynamic, but we may have to reconcile that Rian could have easily meant that their dynamic will not be a romance, at least not in his movie. We're only going into Act II of III, after all. We have an entire film to go after this one.

I'm going to get real for a second here, so bear with me. The movie is only 7 weeks away. No amount of confusion over the timeline, 4-month-old articles, TV spots, trailers and merchandise is going to change what happens in this movie. 8 weeks from now none of this is going to matter, so just enjoy what time we have left speculating. There are so many things we don't know about this movie--the freaking plotline, for one thing. All we have is a vague outline of what the major emotional struggles will be for each character, and while that tells us a lot, it doesn't tell us nearly enough. We'll see when we see.


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Re: No central romance my S

Post by rey09 on Sat 21 Oct 2017, 10:43 pm

I get reassured that Rian said he *wanted* to do romance but it didn't feel right. Like it's too obvious at this point who the romance would have been between. And he said not sure what Colin is up to, but now we got JJ, so reylo full speed ahead!
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Re: No central romance my S

Post by Guest on Sat 21 Oct 2017, 11:27 pm

@rey09 wrote:I get reassured that Rian said he *wanted* to do romance but it didn't feel right. Like it's too obvious at this point who the romance would have been between. And he said not sure what Colin is up to, but now we got JJ, so reylo full speed ahead!
@rey09

When I recently reread the quotes, it seemed to me that Rian was saying he wanted to do a Han and Leia style romance but it didn't feel right. I think, for characters like Ben and Rey, it really would need to be done very differently.

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Re: No central romance my S

Post by snufkin on Sun 22 Oct 2017, 2:00 am

What's the saying, focus on the journey, not the destination? It's looking good that they'll end up spending significant chunks of time together for Round Two of the Nerd Off/Blind Date from Hell. That's what was so ridiculously entertaining about the two of them together in TFA. Especially how the wheels really come off of his attempts to be Vader 2.0 when he's around her. The potential is there and it's better for the characters and story if it takes its time to evolve the way we suspect it will from the trailer. *If* it turns out that Luke's not going to be teaching her, that really leaves one candidate and romance or not, how ridiculously entertaining is it going to be seeing that scenario?

In terms of barriers, tbh him beating up on Finn bothers me far more than anything that happened with Han (sorry!). Like he's not going to get anywhere with Rey until he makes amends for hurting the guy who's her best friend and closest she has to a brother. The part with Han, he's the first person in authority/adult to be kind to her since she was dumped on Jakku, which is major. But watching Kylo basically reject the offer to come home, something she's spent 15 or so years dreaming about, in the worst way possible, that's the problem of not understanding him. Why he'd end up doing something like that. So potential is there, but they have some other parts of the story to go through first.
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Re: No central romance my S

Post by Saracene on Sun 22 Oct 2017, 2:26 am

The way I see it, in order to have a romance a film needs to have two characters with romantic feelings towards each other. These mutual romantic feelings might only ever become fully fledged in the very end, but the bottom line is, the movie has to get there at some point. The big question with TLJ is, is Rey going to get to a point where she has romantic feelings towards Kylo? Not compassion, understanding etc., but actually being in love with him. So far, all the things that could be interpreted as romantic interest, including the trailer hand, come from Kylo. The Rey/Kylo dynamic is going to be developed throughout the trilogy, but if you look at TLJ as a self-contained film (as I'm pretty sure Rian sees it since it's his baby), yes Kylo and Rey might not end it in a place where there are mutual romantic feelings going on.
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Re: No central romance my S

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sun 22 Oct 2017, 3:03 am

I do find the VF quote both baffling and intriguing. I suppose we'll find out soon enough how much truth there was in it. I'm not accusing Rian of lying, but his idea of a "centrepiece" may be very different from mine...

Obviously, the full quote doesn't rule out romance - in fact it seems to be pointing towards some kind of romantic interaction in the film.

But, yeah. Definition is key. Han and Leia were clearly a romance in ESB, but unlike Rian I wouldn't call it a centrepiece. It wasn't driving the plot. On the other hand, in Pride and Prejudice the romance is the plot - it's about getting there - but if you look at it purely in terms of romantic interactions Lizzy and Darcy are no Han and Leia and don't cosy up until the end. If you're counting kisses, does that mean there's no romance in Austen? Or that P&P doesn't become a romance until the very end?

So I have to wonder where two characters would fall on that continuum if their "mysterious connection" is a centrepiece of the plot, as it's currently positioned.

Yes, I wonder...
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Re: No central romance my S

Post by Darth_Awakened on Sun 22 Oct 2017, 3:15 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:I do find the VF quote both baffling and intriguing. I suppose we'll find out soon enough how much truth there was in it. I'm not accusing Rian of lying, but his idea of a "centrepiece" may be very different from mine...

Obviously, the full quote doesn't rule out romance - in fact it seems to be pointing towards some kind of romantic interaction in the film.

But, yeah. Definition is key. Han and Leia were clearly a romance in ESB, but unlike Rian I wouldn't call it a centrepiece. It wasn't driving the plot. On the other hand, in Pride and Prejudice the romance is the plot - it's about getting there - but if you look at it purely in terms of romantic interactions Lizzy and Darcy are no Han and Leia and don't cosy up until the end. If you're counting kisses, does that mean there's no romance in Austen? Or that P&P doesn't become a romance until the very end?

So I have to wonder where two characters would fall on that continuum if their "mysterious connection" is a centrepiece of the plot, as it's currently positioned.

Yes, I wonder...
@Darth Dingbat

I think that Rian was talking about the character's motivation when in it comes to central romance.
When he mentioned that the characters were not at the same point as those in the ESB he was clearly alluding to Han Solo.

Han's sole motivation through out TESB was romantic. From the Hoth to the carbonite chamber (I know). Everything he does in the movie he does for Leia.
And truth be told: no one of the ST characters isn't at that point at the end of TFA:
- Kylo clearly has his own BIG problem of not achieving Vader 2.0.
- Rey is ready to find Luke and explore her own place in "all of it".
- Finn is in a coma and from the bits of info we got of TLJ is still unsure about his belongings.
- Rose is not even in TFA.
- Poe is all about his own pilot skills and being a resistance hero.


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Re: No central romance my S

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sun 22 Oct 2017, 3:34 am

@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:I do find the VF quote both baffling and intriguing. I suppose we'll find out soon enough how much truth there was in it. I'm not accusing Rian of lying, but his idea of a "centrepiece" may be very different from mine...

Obviously, the full quote doesn't rule out romance - in fact it seems to be pointing towards some kind of romantic interaction in the film.

But, yeah. Definition is key. Han and Leia were clearly a romance in ESB, but unlike Rian I wouldn't call it a centrepiece. It wasn't driving the plot. On the other hand, in Pride and Prejudice the romance is the plot - it's about getting there - but if you look at it purely in terms of romantic interactions Lizzy and Darcy are no Han and Leia and don't cosy up until the end. If you're counting kisses, does that mean there's no romance in Austen? Or that P&P doesn't become a romance until the very end?

So I have to wonder where two characters would fall on that continuum if their "mysterious connection" is a centrepiece of the plot, as it's currently positioned.

Yes, I wonder...
@Darth Dingbat

I think that Rian was talking about the character's motivation when in it comes to central romance.
When he mentioned that the characters were not at the same point as those in the ESB he was clearly alluding to Han Solo.

Han's sole motivation through out TESB was romantic. From the Hoth till the carbonite chamber (I know). Everything he does in the movie he does for Leia.
And truth be told: no one of the ST characters isn't at that point at the end of TFA:
- Kylo clearly has his own BIG problem of not achieving Vader 2.0.
- Rey is ready to find Luke and explore her own place in "all of it"
- Finn is in a coma and from the bits of info we got of TLJ is still unsure about his belonging.
- Rose is not even in TFA
- Poe is all about his own pilot skills and being a resistance hero

@Darth_Awakened

Very true!

Either way, I suspect that after TLJ some people will feel cheated Smile "You promised there would be no romance!" *shakes fist*
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Re: No central romance my S

Post by reylo1992 on Sun 22 Oct 2017, 3:37 am

@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:I do find the VF quote both baffling and intriguing. I suppose we'll find out soon enough how much truth there was in it. I'm not accusing Rian of lying, but his idea of a "centrepiece" may be very different from mine...

Obviously, the full quote doesn't rule out romance - in fact it seems to be pointing towards some kind of romantic interaction in the film.

But, yeah. Definition is key. Han and Leia were clearly a romance in ESB, but unlike Rian I wouldn't call it a centrepiece. It wasn't driving the plot. On the other hand, in Pride and Prejudice the romance is the plot - it's about getting there - but if you look at it purely in terms of romantic interactions Lizzy and Darcy are no Han and Leia and don't cosy up until the end. If you're counting kisses, does that mean there's no romance in Austen? Or that P&P doesn't become a romance until the very end?

So I have to wonder where two characters would fall on that continuum if their "mysterious connection" is a centrepiece of the plot, as it's currently positioned.

Yes, I wonder...
@Darth Dingbat

I think that Rian was talking about the character's motivation when in it comes to central romance.
When he mentioned that the characters were not at the same point as those in the ESB he was clearly alluding to Han Solo.

Han's sole motivation through out TESB was romantic. From the Hoth till the carbonite chamber (I know). Everything he does in the movie he does for Leia.
And truth be told: no one of the ST characters isn't at that point at the end of TFA:
- Kylo clearly has his own BIG problem of not achieving Vader 2.0.
- Rey is ready to find Luke and explore her own place in "all of it"
- Finn is in a coma and from the bits of info we got of TLJ is still unsure about his belonging.
- Rose is not even in TFA
- Poe is all about his own pilot skills and being a resistance hero

@Darth_Awakened

You make a good points about the motivations Smile It's clear that Rey doesn't expect at all to be involved in a romantic relationship. She currently thinks that the only belonging she can get is her family. J.J. said in his audio comments that she will get the belonging she seeks, simply not the way she expects, which echoes Ma's lines. So she will maybe come to realize at least that she must let go of the past and go on in TLJ. But will she realize what and who is the belonging she seeks? I am not sure but it makes the things more interesting because unpredictable. And it is a good thing that their character's arc ain't all about romance because this is so much bigger than this. But I think that the definition of the romance depends very much on how it ends: will they be on the same side? will they be separated? what will be their state of minds?
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Re: No central romance my S

Post by DarthRen on Sun 22 Oct 2017, 6:25 am

It's quite confusing with this whole thing. No central romance when Kylo and Rey are clearly central characters. I guess, it depends on interpretation of this word. For me Han/Leia romance wasn't central, it was a subplot to Luke/Vader. Rian meant or interpretated it in his own way and what VF actually got right. We all remember when VF said it and end of Reylo etc. Rian added that it will not be unrequited love, so both characters will have these feelings. Finn and Rose might fit for it but I'd expect any romance to be part of the trilogy.

In my humble opinion, they both have interesting and tough emotional journeys ahead before they can even entertain any idea of a romance. I think it will take a whole movie to get them on the same level. As some before me suggest, Rey has a journey of understanding Kylo, his motivation, past , her past and her powers. Kylo with conflicted alliances to Snoke, Leia, Rey, Luke maybe. Dealing with Han's death will take a toll on him. This is a lot of emotional baggage to go with in this movie for both of them. They have to deal with it before any romantic feelings can happen.

While I don't doubt there might be sexual or romantic undertones in their scenes, body movement and looks. We saw hand gesture and such that can fit into romantic territory. Mine expectations are a bit lower when it comes to love declaration, kiss and overtly romantic acts in this movie. I have a bad experiences when I expect something really positive, it usually backfires on me. VF a bit of sour me on this and while I'd like to get one back on antis. I still think we'll get some good stuff regardless for us to speculate.

I think TLJ might not be a right place or a right time for their love declaration ... given where they are emotionally in this movie. For me and this is just my view, it has to be organic and right. It might seemed rushed and Rian originally wanted to do a romance(?), but it just doesn't fit. At best to me, they will be allies and somehow gaining common ground, as they share many aspects loneliness, raw powers, seeking belonging, two confused young adults. If others expect anything more, that's good. We could be surprised in a positive way.

It's possible romance is not set in stone, given what Rian said that he doesn't know what Colin will do at that time. Maybe they plan and develop as they go. It's possible it will end up as one way love that will still redeem Kylo or somehow spiritual kind of relationship. But JJ is OG Reylo so chances are pretty solid for a romance based on TFA, fairytale tropes but we won't know for sure.

When it comes to TLJ Rian was being honest, I wouldn't accuse him of misleading or being a liar. In fact he's taking a time to answer fans as best as he can.
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Re: No central romance my S

Post by rey09 on Sun 22 Oct 2017, 7:26 am

@DarthRen wrote:
 But JJ is OG Reylo so chances are pretty solid for a romance based on TFA, fairytale tropes but we won't know for sure.
@DarthRen
 Soo true, JJ was very adamant about the fairy tale thing. Like can you imagine having a prince and princess who are very much connected to each other...to play the "just friends" card?!! total lunacy. like, I can't. makes no sense.
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Re: No central romance my S

Post by DarthRen on Sun 22 Oct 2017, 8:29 am

@rey09 wrote:
@DarthRen wrote:
 But JJ is OG Reylo so chances are pretty solid for a romance based on TFA, fairytale tropes but we won't know for sure.
@DarthRen
 Soo true, JJ was very adamant about the fairy tale thing. Like can you imagine having a prince and princess who are very much connected to each other...to play the "just friends" card?!! total lunacy. like, I can't. makes no sense.
@rey09

If they go platonic, spiritual routes. I'm not gonna bash them because I as many others can find beauty in these kind relationships. Some people would prefer this and fair play. But not gonna lie, I'd be a bit dissapointed if there is no mutual deep romantic feelings. There are romantic undertones in each of their scenes and in my opinion it will continue in TLJ. They could have played it into platonic or only spiritual way but they choose romantic undertones instead. It would have been a missed opportunity not to go this way.

They both seek belonging, so much in common as people + background maybe too, both are young, they share most likely bond nobody can have with them on multiple levels.

I can't see Ben and Rey as simply only good friends like Finn and Rey. Finn is like a brother to Rey, Leia like a mother, Luke might be a father figure like Han were. If family as brother, father and mother is what her belonging means. That would be belonging Rey would have expected but JJ said her belonging will be in a way she didn't expect. I think it must be in a romantic way, with someone she can have her own family. Their bond as for Kylo and Rey will always be more intimate, because they share this connection and thanks to this can know and read each others fears and dreams.
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Re: No central romance my S

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sun 22 Oct 2017, 9:05 am

I think most people find a great deal of beauty in platonic stories told well; beauty is not reserved to romance. But there's also a great deal of frustration to be had if you signal something with common tropes etc., and then highlight the characters' fascinating chemistry and lead the people who spotted all that down the garden path with references to an unexplained powerful connection and potentially romantic imagery and then... go nowhere with it.

Platonic isn't "nowhere". But here's the catch: it's "nowhere" if you grew to expect something totally different. It's the story you settle for if you originally thought the story would be something else.

I mean, there are many ways to raise the audience's interest. They absolutely didn't have to do any of all that stuff that we and lots and lots of other people latched onto in TFA. Here's the old chestnut: would you consider TFA kind of weird if Rey and Kylo were meant to be siblings? If you think that would be weird, then it would be equally weird (storytelling-wise) if they were meant to be 100% platonic all along.

The "Rey Related" angle is pretty much the prism through which you see the story - or don't. If you see them as related, you obviously refuse to see anything hinting at an upcoming romance. If you didn't have that prism all along, and you see the hints, you can't see them as related ever again. It wouldn't feel right. And that's for a reason.

As for spiritual, romance can also be spiritual - in fact the spiritual component is pretty much what makes Reylo so special as a dynamic. Whatever it is, it is a mysterious spiritual connection first and foremost.
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Re: No central romance my S

Post by AceofWands on Sun 22 Oct 2017, 9:11 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:I do find the VF quote both baffling and intriguing. I suppose we'll find out soon enough how much truth there was in it. I'm not accusing Rian of lying, but his idea of a "centrepiece" may be very different from mine...

@Darth Dingbat

Maybe it's not only his idea of centrepiece, but his idea of romance.

Maybe he thinks Rey and Kylo are central, but doesn't want to describe it as romance.

For me, romance, even if not fully realized, if not fully reciprocated, is romance. (But then Rian said there won't be unrequited love).

When I see trembling Kylo, with a deep breath, googly eyes, extending his hand, I see romance.

If Rey takes her lightsaber and cuts off his hand (like some fans have suggested), it doesn't erase his gesture. It would be unrequited romance, but it would still be romance. If Rey still hates Kylo in TLJ, but if he's willing to open himself up and show vulnerability, for me that's romance, or a romantic arc. That said, I do think these two will come to some sort of understanding in the movie, and I can see clearly that Kylo doesn't see her just as a potential buddy. So it's there! Anyways, maybe it's just a matter of definition.

And yeah, just to clarify, I'm the coolest person expecting TLJ, and I don't have any anxiety. Reylo doesn't cause me the least anxiety cause I'm pretty sure it's going to be developed. I don't have any problem with tragic Reylo or even unfulfilled Reylo if it's a good story. The romantic arc is already started in TFA, so it's there and I'm looking forward to see it developed.

I wrote this thread because I just thought that everything we saw from TLJ contradicted Rian's statement, and it baffled me, because he's always been so earnest and open about the movie. My understanding is that Rey and Kylo's relationship will be central to TLJ, even if they don't spend a lot of time together, and that Rey and Kylo will advance their romantic arc in TLJ. I don't think they'll really get together and "become a couple"in this movie. They will have more open romantic gestures, and Rey will reciprocate to some extent, but they have to be separated at the end of the movie, for plot reasons. For me it's a central romance. Maybe for Rian it's not central cause they won't "become a couple" yet?

But hey, whatever. If Rian considers the central focus of plot B (Han and Leia) as central, we have very different opinions. My theory is that RJ must have slept in the Luke and Yoda scenes, and has a headcanon that ESB is all about Han, like many people do. If the movie is about Han Solo, and all Han Solo wants is Leia, suddenly their romance becomes central.

And maybe it all comes down to semantics.

Edit: @Darth Dingbat I love "spiritual" connection as well, and I love the Luke and Leia bond, for example. But I really think it would have been super weird if they had not been revealed as siblings. They obviously loved each other and had a deep connection (as per ESB's ending). If they hadn't been revealed to be siblings, I think their arc would have been disappointing. That's what I think is the case with Kylo and Rey.
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Re: No central romance my S

Post by DarthRen on Sun 22 Oct 2017, 9:18 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:I think most people find a great deal of beauty in platonic stories told well; beauty is not reserved to romance. But there's also a great deal of frustration to be had if you signal something with common tropes etc., and then highlight the characters' fascinating chemistry and lead the people who spotted all that down the garden path with references to an unexplained powerful connection and potentially romantic imagery and then... go nowhere with it.

Platonic isn't "nowhere". But here's the catch: it's "nowhere" if you grew to expect something totally different. It's the story you settle for if you originally thought the story would be something else.

I mean, there are many ways to raise the audience's interest. They absolutely didn't have to do any of all that stuff that we and lots and lots of other people latched onto in TFA. Here's the old chestnut: would you consider TFA kind of weird if Rey and Kylo were meant to be siblings? If you think that would be weird, then it would be equally weird (storytelling-wise) if they were meant to be 100% platonic all along.


The "Rey Related" angle is pretty much the prism through which you see the story - or don't. If you see them as related, you obviously refuse to see anything hinting at an upcoming romance. If you didn't have that prism all along, and you see the hints, you can't see them as related ever again. It wouldn't feel right. And that's for a reason.

As for spiritual, romance can also be spiritual - in fact the spiritual component is pretty much what makes Reylo so special as a dynamic. Whatever it is, it is a mysterious spiritual connection first and foremost.
@Darth Dingbat

I'd watch the hella out of any heavy Reylo movie. Romantic, platonic, strictly spiritual or combinations but as you said, that's not the story they set up. It could have been something like in the vein of Leia and Luke funny and awkward moment of some kind. When they repeatedly choose romantic subtext in their scenes, JJ talking about fairytales Prince, Princess and a castle.

You touched upon spiritual. That's why we love Reylo in general. I meant only spiritual with any kind of attachement of love beyond. Understanding between them is their spiritual link.
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Re: No central romance my S

Post by IoJovi on Sun 22 Oct 2017, 9:31 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:I think most people find a great deal of beauty in platonic stories told well; beauty is not reserved to romance. But there's also a great deal of frustration to be had if you signal something with common tropes etc., and then highlight the characters' fascinating chemistry and lead the people who spotted all that down the garden path with references to an unexplained powerful connection and potentially romantic imagery and then... go nowhere with it.

Platonic isn't "nowhere". But here's the catch: it's "nowhere" if you grew to expect something totally different. It's the story you settle for if you originally thought the story would be something else.

I mean, there are many ways to raise the audience's interest. They absolutely didn't have to do any of all that stuff that we and lots and lots of other people latched onto in TFA. Here's the old chestnut: would you consider TFA kind of weird if Rey and Kylo were meant to be siblings? If you think that would be weird, then it would be equally weird (storytelling-wise) if they were meant to be 100% platonic all along.

The "Rey Related" angle is pretty much the prism through which you see the story - or don't. If you see them as related, you obviously refuse to see anything hinting at an upcoming romance. If you didn't have that prism all along, and you see the hints, you can't see them as related ever again. It wouldn't feel right. And that's for a reason.

As for spiritual, romance can also be spiritual - in fact the spiritual component is pretty much what makes Reylo so special as a dynamic. Whatever it is, it is a mysterious spiritual connection first and foremost.
@Darth Dingbat

This is how I see it too.  If we were to 'keep score' (cuz let's face it, there is a Fantasy Football aspect to our fandom), I'd say RomanceGate is the only "bad" day we've had.  On top of that, it ended up being a misquote.  When I saw the subsequent damage control done by Rian, I moved on.  There is definitely an underlying sexual subtext to Rey and Kylo's interactions in TFA, and while not everyone in the audience picked up on it, an extremely large chunk of them did. If it's purposely put there by the TPTB, you can be sure it's going somewhere.

One could probably read more into what Rian means by "central" but if you do, you also have to take into account the many tweets from LF officials (not just Pablo), cast member interviews, and what was told by JJ in the DVD commentary.  One of example of many:  John Boyega saying the romance isn't going to go the way you think it's going to go towards a FinnRey shipper.  These all hint towards a romantic connection between Rey and Kylo.  Therefore, the way I interpret Rian's idea of "central" as being the kissy face/outward romantic stuff we see in the beginning in Empire Strikes Back.  No, Han and Leia's romance wasn't central to the story, but it was epic, and it was big, bold and in your face.  Given everything else we've seen apart from the VF article, I'm pretty confident this is what he meant.
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Re: No central romance my S

Post by Kylo Men on Sun 22 Oct 2017, 9:39 am

They would be silly not to go romantic Reylo. Look at the conversation out there generated just by the trailer.

Rian said "no HanandLeia style central romance." When he got quizzed about the details of what that meant, he started giving, "Well, you'll have to see" answers. Which is practically saying yes.

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