Character Development in The Last Jedi?

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Re: Character Development in The Last Jedi?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Mon 23 Oct - 15:40

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Saracene wrote:Regarding Rey, I'm not really sure how well overwhelmingly powerful young woman who takes charge in an attempt to find her own place and strive to bring a shattered family back together mesh together. I mean, I can't really see where Rey herself is in all of this if she's basically out to fix other people's issues and families.
@Saracene
I'm just trying to reconcile how she'll feel toward Luke by the end of this movie if their dynamic is indeed supposed to be the "beating heart". I'm also imagining that she'll learn something terrible about her own past while simultaneously growing more attached to Luke (and possibly feeling a connection to Kylo). I'm struggling to imagine what else would bring her to care enough for their family, as we know quite well she has no literal blood relation to them. Overall I should say that I think Rey's arc will surround getting to that place where she's totally willing to let go of the past.

@Maria Antonietta
Then why is her relationship with Luke being called the "beating heart" of the film? She can't just drop the patriarchy and still have a profound relationship with Luke? Doesn't there have to be more here than that, despite what any of us individually *wants* for this film. I'm really trying to encourage outside-the-box thinking here because I feel it's something that has been nagging at the backs of our minds for a while now.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I think that there might be a situation of competing marketing signals here. We have all kinds of visual indicators, canon book indicators, and now some actual performance (MH) indicators that Luke has a problem. Now how far they take that problem, that's still yet to be seen, and that's where speculation comes in.

OTOH, we have Rian calling Luke and Rey the "beating heart" of the movie. So what does that mean? It could mean Luke and Rey are going to save each other somehow. But given how the visuals and trailer indicate that the mutual support will come from the Rey and Kylo relationship, it's reasonable to think that "beating heart" may not have such a simple meaning.

It's quite arguable that Kylo and Rey were the beating heart of TFA, even though they were antagonistic to each other. It's also arguable that "beating heart" refers to a spiritual issue. Luke may represent one viewpoint of force usage while Rey (and her other half, Kylo) another viewpoint, and through them the right answer must be teased out, with Rey probably acting as the prime mediator as her journey is likely to elicit the most unbiased truth on this question.

There is also the issue of Rian saying that Rey and Luke's relationship will not play out like Luke/Yoda, along with indicators that Kylo will serve as a teacher. There is also the issue of MH saying that he will have a reduced role and the concern of Luke taking over everything that has been expressed by the production, both which arguably undercut both the great master Luke and the uber-dark Luke theories (which I don't think anyone here advocates for), because each would make Luke too important.

So I think that this is not just a case of people just saying what they want. There are disparate pieces of evidence all over the place from which people can formulate a variety of arguments.
@SoloSideCousin
Absolutely, you're quite right. There are disparate pieces of marketing evidence pointing in a variety of different directions. I guess I just took Rian's words more at face-value and assumed Rey and Luke's dynamic would ultimately end up being a positive one. And as for the differences between the Yoda/Luke dynamic and the Luke/Rey dynamic... well, Yoda's relationship with Luke really wasn't that positive. Yoda had this air of superiority and wisdom, while I think Luke will disappoint Rey in more human, down-to-earth ways. But then how does one reconcile that with Rey finding a path with Kylo?

It's extremely possible that they were going for one push in the marketing a few months ago and have since moved on to another one. I got the sense that a lot of fans were pretty apathetic toward Luke and Rey's relationship being highlighted as what many saw as more important than what it would end up being in the film. So it's less that Rian was lying and more that he was exaggerating at the request of LF/Kennedy in order to appease the fanboy mentality that Luke still needs to be uber important.

Would you mind summarizing more of your ideas for this dark/antagonist Luke scenario? I've always imagined that Luke would be an antagonistic and opposing force to Rey for much of TLJ, but would ultimately emerge a hero again, and I find this thinking that something else will happen to be intriguing from a story perspective. I guess I just have trouble seeing how an antagonistic Luke wouldn't totally overshadow Rey and Kylo's story. I would love to hear your thoughts on this matter!
@FrolickingFizzgig

I got caught up with discussing Paterson in the film thread, so now I don't have a lot of time because I need to pick up my kid. But I will say this for now, one of the things that I like about MessedUp!Antagonist!Dark!Extreme!Zealous!Unstable!Luke is that IMO it will get him off the stage. If he is not a viable teacher or mentor, Rey and Kylo will need to figure out serious things by themselves. If he is a viable teacher, I think he will seep into everything and just suck the air away from Rey and Kylo.

To me it's like Dumbledore and Harry Potter (sorry @"Night Huntress Very Happy), but IMO Dumbledore needed to die so Harry could not always run back to him to save him. It's similar in a way to Frodo and Sam getting separated from the Fellowship, particularly Gandalf. These kinds of characters need to stumble in the dark and find their own way. If Luke is not trusted, for whatever reason, for a period of time, Rey and Kylo can do that ... *and* maybe teach Luke a few things once he pulls himself together. (Like I said above, Luke won't die a mess).
@SoloSideCousin

Yeah, this is how I see it, too.

I've been trying to reconcile the "beating heart" line with what we've seen in the promo materials, and the only things that I can come up with are antgonist-but-not-villain Luke, which would fit with the "ambiguity and nuance" that we've been hearing about from everyone. It doesn't make Luke a bad guy if he legitimately feels that Rey is a danger to the galaxy...but then he also would likely be blocking our heroine from her ultimate goal, which does make him an antagonist, and if Luke is Rey's antagonist, their relationship can still be the "beating heart" that drives the rest of the storyline.

I do agree that there's been a shift in marketing. Up until the artwork started being released (with the exception of the teaser poster), everything had been "the Rey and Luke show". Recent marketing feels like it's taken a pretty sharp left turn from that. I do wonder if Rian's "beating heart" comment is an artifact from the earlier marketing strategy. I keep thinking back to SWC, where Mark said that "Luke is a supporting character now", and KK quickly stepped in with her "Luke is still very important" line almost immediately...
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Re: Character Development in The Last Jedi?

Post by SanghaRen on Mon 23 Oct - 16:14

I see no Dark!Luke and not even a very antagonistic one. All I see in the trailer is fear. Actually the only darkish Luke stuff is on the posters and maybe in some stills which are Mark Hamill posing rather than Luke in the movie. So offscreen marketing stuff. Not sure I would trust that.

I also see Dark!Luke as counter-productive because it would send many fans in despair and they’d lose their focus on the story worrying about Luke. And do we need two redemption stories? It sounds like a lot.

Actually I like the idea of Luke’s journey being about coming back to his optimistic self. How many people see so much sith in their life and become disillusioned middle agers? If Kylo’s journey represents the tumultuous transition from adolescence to adulthood, why wouldn’t Luke’s journey be about overcoming mid life crisis?
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Re: Character Development in The Last Jedi?

Post by Night Huntress on Mon 23 Oct - 16:27

I never was the biggest Luke fan- that been said, I don't think Luke will be dark or a bad guy in any way.

But I really like that he is not just the nice everybody's darling good guy from the OT...because I found that pretty boring. Sleep
That's why I was more into Han/Leia- they where much more interesting characters for me.

I think he will be sad, blaming himself for Kylo's falling- and him questioning the old way of the Jedi is totally a good thing in my opinion.
Like I said before... a lot of what they practiced wasn't healthy and should be renewed.
I don't think he is on that island for no reason...he is searching or trying to figure out something important.
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Re: Character Development in The Last Jedi?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Mon 23 Oct - 16:45

@Darth Dingbat wrote:I think the resistance to Ruke being central comes from the fact that selling the Rey-Kylo relationship to the audience ultimately requires a significant amount of meaningful interaction between them. Sure, Rey and Kylo could communicate entirely in dreams and develop a close relationship without even telling the audience, but obviously that's not not going to sell it to us.

The other reason it no doubt galls is that the "beating heart! BEATING HEART!! BEAAATIIIING HEAAARRRTT!!!" has been used as a stick to beat Reylos with since the day it was uttered. It's not even our "side" that's most reluctant to accept that more than one dynamic could be important in one film. For some people, it's been promised that TLJ is the Luke'n'Rey show, no room for anything else.

But ultimately, I suppose I do think one dynamic is going to be more important than the other. And the way things are set up, and the fact that this is supposed to be the new generation's story with apparently Kylo as a co-protagonist, it doesn't make much sense to me for it to be Luke and Rey. I always expected Luke's role to be akin to Han's in TFA, in terms of size and importance. I suppose you could even say that the scene between Han and Kylo was ultimately the "beating heart" of TFA.

I confess I find it hard to predict what exactly the dynamic between Rey and Luke is going to be, and I... find that exciting? Kind of? I'm not a believer in Evil!Luke. I'm not even really a believer in wrongheadedly antagonistic Luke, though I'm not saying it's not possible. I suspect Luke has good reasons for thinking as he does, doing what he does, and I suspect Rey and Kylo are something legitimately dangerous and scary. Not just "Rey, certified good person, has the potential in her to go dark (but she won't, don't worry) and Luke's heart finally melts when he realises how good she is". More like "nuclear scientist inadvertently creates the A-bomb and is determined to stop it at all costs".

I mean, I would find it interesting if it were basically Luke as Galen and Rey and Kylo as the Death Star. That would really challenge the audience - whose side are we meant to be on, anyway?
@Darth Dingbat
See, when you say it like that, it makes more sense. I'm very much subscribing to the line of thinking that the raw power/something truly special are tangible, legitimate threats, not just Luke and Snoke's means of communicating that Rey and Kylo are Force prodigies. They're something else and Luke likely has very real, relatable reasons for being so afraid that extend far, far beyond being kinda, sorta depressed and then getting over it. Whatever "thing" inside Rey and Kylo that sets them apart from not only other beings, but even other Force Sensitives, is going to be hugely relevant to their individual backstories and their dynamics with their masters. And to me, that does speak that Rey and Luke are going to have a positive relationship by this film's conclusion--and possibly that Kylo will be included in that fold as well?

Side-note, but everybody probably knows I'm a big Naruto fan and thinking about it through that lens always seems to help me make sense of certain things. Quick re-intro, Naruto and Sasuke are two halves of the protagonist, one of whom was born a talentless and annoying social outcast while the other was born the heir to their village's most prominent and powerful clan. Largely unbeknownst to Naruto, Sasuke lived in the shadow of his reverent elder brother until that elder brother Anakin'd their entire family, leaving Sasuke an orphan. The first half of the story simultaneously details Naruto's rise and Sasuke's fall. Sasuke is lured by the prospect of gaining the power he needs to get revenge on his brother. He betrays the village and follows his new master Snoke Orochimaru.

Meanwhile, Naruto encounters a master of his own, a grumpy middle-aged man who shockingly wants to avoid taking him on as an apprentice at first. You slowly learn that he has had several partners and apprentices in the past, all of whom ended up either dying tragically or falling down the path of villainy (including Orochimaru, Sasuke's would-be body-snatcher master). He is scared at first to invest everything in Naruto, but eventually goes the extra mile and not only trains him, but also purposefully loosens the nine-tailed  seal contained in Naruto's body so he can tap into his #rawpower more readily. Of course, this results in Naruto loosing control of the demon and almost killing his teacher. In the long run, however, Naruto does manage to redeem his master and certainly forges a #beatingheart relationship with him, discovers a great deal about his past and faces off with another one of his former apprentices. Their core dynamic over the course of the story actually enriches Naruto and Sasuke's hero/villain dynamic rather than taking away from it, which is what I feel is the major fear in the Reylo community with regards to Luke.





@SanghaRen wrote:Actually I like the idea of Luke’s journey being about coming back to his optimistic self. How many people see so much sith in their life and become disillusioned middle agers? If Kylo’s journey represents the tumultuous transition from adolescence to adulthood, why wouldn’t Luke’s journey be about overcoming mid life crisis?
@SanghaRen
I totally agree with this, and it combines well with Luke being genuinely and understandably afraid--and having to get over his fear. I think it would be a powerful way to continue Luke's arc and would be similar to what they did with Han in TFA.
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Re: Character Development in The Last Jedi?

Post by DeeBee on Mon 23 Oct - 17:55

What a great thread @FrolickingFizzgig

Where some view the story through a literary lense (which I love because you teach me new things Smile ), I tend to view the characters through a human development lense..
I'll go through the characters and put the developmental theory in spoiler thingy - so I don't take up a whole page, but also saves people from needing to go search for descriptions of the stages. Hope this is okay!

Kylo/Ben & Rey:
I think for Kylo and Rey we are seeing a classic "identify vs role confusion" stage of development. (In Erikson's stages of human development)
By the end of The Last Jedi I think they will have each confronted this challenge, and progressed to the next stage..
Here is how simplypsychology describe it:

identify vs role confusion:
"The fifth stage is identity vs. role confusion, and it occurs during adolescence, from about 12-18 years. During this stage, adolescents search for a sense of self and personal identity, through an intense exploration of personal values, beliefs, and goals.
The adolescent mind is essentially a mind or moratorium, a psychosocial stage between childhood and adulthood, and between the morality learned by the child, and the ethics to be developed by the adult (Erikson, 1963, p. 245)
During adolescence, the transition from childhood to adulthood is most important. Children are becoming more independent, and begin to look at the future in terms of career, relationships, families, housing, etc. The individual wants to belong to a society and fit in.
This is a major stage of development where the child has to learn the roles he will occupy as an adult. It is during this stage that the adolescent will re-examine his identity and try to find out exactly who he or she is. Erikson suggests that two identities are involved: the sexual and the occupational.
According to Bee (1992), what should happen at the end of this stage is “a reintegrated sense of self, of what one wants to do or be, and of one’s appropriate sex role”. During this stage the body image of the adolescent changes.
Erikson claims that the adolescent may feel uncomfortable about their body for a while until they can adapt and “grow into” the changes. Success in this stage will lead to the virtue of fidelity.
Fidelity involves being able to commit one's self to others on the basis of accepting others, even when there may be ideological differences.
During this period, they explore possibilities and begin to form their own identity based upon the outcome of their explorations. Failure to establish a sense of identity within society ("I don’t know what I want to be when I grow up") can lead to role confusion. Role confusion involves the individual not being sure about themselves or their place in society.
In response to role confusion or identity crisis, an adolescent may begin to experiment with different lifestyles (e.g., work, education or political activities). Also pressuring someone into an identity can result in rebellion in the form of establishing a negative identity, and in addition to this feeling of unhappiness."
[From: https://www.simplypsychology.org/Erik-Erikson.html ]

We all go through this phase in life.. and we can all relate on some level with these characters. I like the idea that each character in themselves needs to sort out their place in the world, before they can carve out a life together romantically.. and so - RJ's comments that romance is not central works well with my thinking.

I'm really looking forward to watching Kylo/Ben and Rey move on to that next developmental stage : Intimacy vs Isolation Smile
Which sets up the possible love story nicely Wink  Whether we get to see them progress into this stage by the end of TLJ remains to be seen.. but I think we'll definitely see this in XI.

Intimacy vs Isolation:
Here's how this is described at simply psychology:
"Occurring in young adulthood (ages 18 to 40 yrs), we begin to share ourselves more intimately with others. We explore relationships leading toward longer-term commitments with someone other than a family member.
Successful completion of this stage can result in happy relationships and a sense of commitment, safety, and care within a relationship. Avoiding intimacy, fearing commitment and relationships can lead to isolation, loneliness, and sometimes depression. Success in this stage will lead to the virtue of love." [From: https://www.simplypsychology.org/Erik-Erikson.html ]

It has Rey, Kylo/Ben and how I see their story unfolding written all over it Smile
A happy relationship with commitment, safety and care is how I want their story to end!  Smile

While I'm at it.. I'll also suggest Luke, Leia and Finn's stages of development..
I think Luke is in the generativity vs stagnation stage of development. here's simply psychology's description of this stage:
generativity vs stagnation:
"During middle adulthood (ages 40 to 65 yrs), we establish our careers, settle down within a relationship, begin our own families and develop a sense of being a part of the bigger picture.
We give back to society through raising our children, being productive at work, and becoming involved in community activities and organizations.
By failing to achieve these objectives, we become stagnant and feel unproductive. Success in this stage will lead to the virtue of care." [From: https://www.simplypsychology.org/Erik-Erikson.html ]

I think we are going to see Luke complete this stage by the end of episode IX.

For Leia, I think she's further along than luke, and in the final stage of Ego Integrity vs Despair.
Here's how simply psychology describes it:
Ego Integrity vs Despair. :
"As we grow older (65+ yrs) and become senior citizens, we tend to slow down our productivity and explore life as a retired person. It is during this time that we contemplate our accomplishments and can develop integrity if we see ourselves as leading a successful life.
Erik Erikson believed if we see our lives as unproductive, feel guilt about our past, or feel that we did not accomplish our life goals, we become dissatisfied with life and develop despair, often leading to depression and hopelessness.
Success in this stage will lead to the virtue of wisdom. Wisdom enables a person to look back on their life with a sense of closure and completeness, and also accept death without fear." [From: https://www.simplypsychology.org/Erik-Erikson.html ]
When Leia's time comes, I'd like for her to die with a sense of closure and completeness (while I ball my eyes out..) I don't think she is slowing down at all - but then, there is talk of her preparing Poe to take over as leader - she's succession planning in TLJ.

For Finn? He could be in the identity vs. role confusion stage like Rey and Kylo - but I would take it back a little further for Finn and suggest at the start of TLJ he will be in the Industry vs Inferiority stage - and he'll move quickly on through identity vs. role confusion and intimacy vs isolation..
Here is how simply psychology describes the industry vs inferiority stage:
Industry vs Inferiority:
"Industry versus inferiority is the fourth stage of Erik Erikson's theory of psychosocial development. The stage occurs during childhood between the ages of five and twelve.
Children are at the stage where they will be learning to read and write, to do sums, to do things on their own. Teachers begin to take an important role in the child’s life as they teach the child specific skills.
It is at this stage that the child’s peer group will gain greater significance and will become a major source of the child’s self-esteem. The child now feels the need to win approval by demonstrating specific competencies that are valued by society and begin to develop a sense of pride in their accomplishments.
If children are encouraged and reinforced for their initiative, they begin to feel industrious and feel confident in their ability to achieve goals. If this initiative is not encouraged, if it is restricted by parents or teacher, then the child begins to feel inferior, doubting his own abilities and therefore may not reach his or her potential.
If the child cannot develop the specific skill they feel society is demanding (e.g., being athletic) then they may develop a sense of inferiority. Some failure may be necessary so that the child can develop some modesty. Again, a balance between competence and modesty is necessary. Success in this stage will lead to the virtue of competence." [From: https://www.simplypsychology.org/Erik-Erikson.html ]
Sounds like it fits for Mr 'Big Deal' who doesn't really think he is a big deal Wink

How exactly these characters will develop through these stages I don't know.. I just think in terms of the big over arching journey at this point..

So for the fans here who are literary and educated (me not educated in literature! Wink ) Do you think that the stages of human development are nestled in literary themes?

Thanks for reading this far! lol.. A lovely way to spend a morning.. now I actually need to get on with my day job Wink


Last edited by DeeBee on Mon 23 Oct - 17:58; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : spelling :()
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Re: Character Development in The Last Jedi?

Post by reylo1992 on Mon 23 Oct - 18:14


@SanghaRen wrote:I see no Dark!Luke and not even a very antagonistic one. All I see in the trailer is fear. Actually the only darkish Luke stuff is on the posters and maybe in some stills which are Mark Hamill posing rather than Luke in the movie. So offscreen marketing stuff. Not sure I would trust that.

I also see Dark!Luke as counter-productive because it would send many fans in despair and they’d lose their focus on the story worrying about Luke. And do we need two redemption stories? It sounds like a lot.

Actually I like the idea of Luke’s journey being about coming back to his optimistic self. How many people see so much sith in their life and become disillusioned middle agers? If Kylo’s journey represents the tumultuous transition from adolescence to adulthood, why wouldn’t Luke’s journey be about overcoming mid life crisis?
@SanghaRen

I agree with you about evrything there. It seems to me that Luke needs to come back to the optimistic young man he was in ROTJ. I am looking forward to learn about the reasons behind his evolution. Like Rey, Luke was very forgiving: he believed in his father"s redemption against all odds. And here comes the strange thing: Luke believed that Vader could be redeemed  because there was still light in him and he was proven right in the end. We know that Kylo still has light in him: Maz  stated that the light was always there, Leia felt it too and we may assume that Luke feels it too. Then, why seems Luke so resigned to his nephew's fate? Why does he think that the Jedi must end: is it related to the fact that the Jedi ways were responsible of his father's and his nephew's fate?

So I agree also with @FrolickingFizzgig that there is maybe something else that makes things more complicated  than "there is still light in him so I can turn him back". My feeling about this is that Luke is driven insane by a dilemma. ROTJ Luke couldn't bring himself to kill his father but he had a reason to hope because the light he had felt within his father was enough to enable his redemption.  Maybe TLJ Luke knows something about Ben's raw powah that makes him think it is his duty to kill his nephew for the sake of the galaxy but he can't bring himself to destroy him because of the emotional attachment:?:  Maybe  Luke thinks that killing one life could save many other lives (if not the entire galaxy), which depends very much on the implication behind that raw powah  And thus, maybe he sees Rey's raw powah and her connection to Kylo as a double threat for the galaxy's fate and since they have no attachment he would attempt to attack her because he thinks that this is the right thing to do Question Thus, he would be dark from a certain point of view but he would have his reasons to fear this rawpowah.

I dont know to what extent it is right to make such comparison but let's imagine that we would learn right now that a child was born on Earth with the potential to be a real nuclear bomb able to  destroy entire nations. People who knew about that were aware that the child may be dangerous but still intended to teach him how to  canalize this potential. Problem: it appears that a crazy man with great ambitions and evil intentions had targeted the child and we learn that he intends to misuse his raw power at any moment to rule the world like he wants. So what would you decide about this child ? Would you let him live with the risk to endanger the entire humanity? Or would you destroy one life to make sure that the entire humanity can survive? Maybe this is the heart of Luke's dilemma in TLJ Question


Last edited by reylo1992 on Mon 23 Oct - 22:15; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Character Development in The Last Jedi?

Post by Anakin Skywalker on Mon 23 Oct - 19:49

is this new or was already posted?
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Re: Character Development in The Last Jedi?

Post by Guest on Mon 23 Oct - 19:55

I know Luke has that line in the trailer about the raw strength scaring him but I don’t think he’s on Ahch-To because of fear.

That was the first thing I had to figure out. Why is Luke on that island? And I didn’t have any answers. But it’s not like you can just pick anything you want out of the air. I grew up having a sense of who Luke Skywalker is. It guides you to a very specific path. I know he’s not hiding on the island. I know he’s not a coward. He must be there for a reason that he believes in. You’re finding a path forward, but there end up being fewer choices than you think.


Rian Johnson said the above in this interview https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2017/09/06/movies/star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-rian-johnson.amp.html in relation to where Luke is at in TLJ. He says Luke isn’t hiding on that island and he’s not a coward, so what is going on?

It appears from the bits and pieces we know in canon material that post-RoTJ Luke dedicated his life to a better understanding of the Force. The Legends of Luke Skywalker book brings in some interesting possibilities. But as the stories are ‘from a Certain Point of View’ tall tales, it’s hard to know how relevant will be. There is some truth in every legend, though, as they say. The “we are all Luke Skywalker” thing is intriguing because it kind of fits together with the impression Bloodline gave of him being a mythical figure “more myth than man” I think Claudia Gray described him. Luke became a Jedi when he threw down his lightsaber in Palpatine’s Throne Room, that’s what I’ve heard said by Pablo Hidalgo and I think it’s been repeated on the official Star Wars site (which PH, Matt Martin and others in the Story Group contribute to). I agree with that reading of it, and I’m assuming that’s how Rian sees it too. Maybe Luke decided to give himself over to the will of the force and it told him not to act, no matter how bad things got.

As for what will happen with Rey and Luke and how they’ll be the beating heart of the story. It looks like he will be openly hostile to her at first and maybe grudgingly agree to train her or at least test her to see what she’s capable of, he doesn’t seem to like what he finds from what we’ve seen in the trailer. We know Rey will be hurt by his rejection, after everyone was so welcoming of her in TFA. This being a parallel with the struggles of adolescence, I assume she will crave his approval and when she doesn’t get it, she will rebel. Luke might assume the worst in her at first, especially when he sees her raw strength, which reminds him of Kylo. But ultimately, I think she will prove him wrong and she will end up doing something on a par with his lightsaber-throwing-down-moment towards the end of TLJ. I foresee either Luke making an Obi-Wan sacrifice and declaring Rey as the Last Jedi before he bows out or he and Rey will become the Last Jedi together, going from singular to plural.

As for where Kylo fits into all this... I see a few possibilities. To simplify, it essentially comes down to two options; Rey either inspires him to turn back to the light or he continues down the opposite path from her and cements his place on the dark side. I obviously want the former but arguments could be made for the latter too.

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Re: Character Development in The Last Jedi?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Mon 23 Oct - 20:25

@Mrs Ben Solo
I don't think showing fear over perceived mistakes makes Luke a coward in any way, especially if his fear is extremely justified by what we see in the movie. For all we know he may have originally gone there to find answers about Ben's powers, only to lose sight of his goal over six years in his inability to help. I think there's still a preconceived notion out there that Luke simply can't be dragged through the mud at all as the hero of the OT, but it seems to me it's already happening. Rian's various Tweets and interviews have told me that he is a writer who sees every bit of an individual story's universe as existing to serve the narrative. IMHO, Rian is going to have zero qualms about showing a different Luke Skywalker, especially if that different Luke goes through a stage of development alongside Rey's.

I don't agree with your options at the end, either. I know you've taken Pablo's stance on "gray" as canon4ever, but his snark doesn't change the fact that there's an emphasis being placed on balance, with both Rey and Kylo being described as two halves of the dark and light, two halves of "something", two halves of the protagonist, etc. I can't reconcile that with the film concluding on black and white terms like "Rey is the last Jedi", "Luke is the Last Jedi" or "Kylo is dark". I genuinely don't think Rey is going to bring Kylo back to the light in the span of a single movie. Obviously he's not enticing her to the dark, so what's going on? What's "so much bigger" in the idea of balance?

I know you like to keep your expectations low, but come on, arguments can be made for Kylo becoming a cartoon villain? You can't honestly believe that at this stage. :/
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Re: Character Development in The Last Jedi?

Post by Guest on Mon 23 Oct - 20:46

@FrolickingFizzgig I think there’s been some kind of misunderstanding here. I don’t see Grey Jedi but I certainly do see Yin and Yang, which totally isn’t using light and dark side powers but rather a natural symbiosis of the two.

As for Kylo becoming a “cartoon villain” I certainly don’t see that either. I only meant to say that it could be a progression of what JJ Abrams described as the light awakening in the hero and the dark side awakening in a villain. This doesn’t have to go down the path of making Kylo a cackling nasty like Palpatine or any other stereotypical moustache-twirling villain.

Look, I’m firmly in this for Kylo’s redemption and Reylo but I’m not going to ignore the fact that the two sides of something could be good and evil. It’s simplistic in essence but these are movies made for a broad audience and mainly for kids. The signs for redemption and Reylo are looking pretty positive right now, but there’s always that niggling voice in the back of my mind that says “What if...?” I’m really not about checking expectations. It’s not my responsibility to police what headcanons people go into TLJ with. I’m just a low-expectations kind of person because there’s nothing I hate more than setting myself up for disappointment.

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Re: Character Development in The Last Jedi?

Post by tukicarreno on Mon 23 Oct - 22:45

I don't agree with your options at the end, either. I know you've taken Pablo's stance on "gray" as canon4ever, but his snark doesn't change the fact that there's an emphasis being placed on balance, with both Rey and Kylo being described as two halves of the dark and light, two halves of "something", two halves of the protagonist, etc. I can't reconcile that with the film concluding on black and white terms like "Rey is the last Jedi", "Luke is the Last Jedi" or "Kylo is dark". I genuinely don't think Rey is going to bring Kylo back to the light in the span of a single movie. Obviously he's not enticing her to the dark, so what's going on? What's "so much bigger" in the idea of balance?

Exactly! All the hints are there! This trilogy won´t end with the old dark vs light battle, it will be something new where the dark and light unite and the balance will finally be restored to the galaxy! Even JJ said that episode IX will go somewhere else! I say that bodes very well for future Reylo developments! I am just so excited for what´s to come guys! Very Happy bounce

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Re: Character Development in The Last Jedi?

Post by Guest on Mon 23 Oct - 23:13

Rian Johnson reportedly said that by the end of TLJ we would know who to root for and where the characters stood. That doesn’t sound like Kylo’s allegiances will be left hanging one way or the other. I want to see something decisive from him at the end of this movie because he can’t go on being torn apart. Many people are speculating that Kylo holding his hand out, most likely to Rey, comes towards the end of the movie. How can Rey take it or Kylo have any hope of her accepting if he’s still in league with Snoke and the First Order? Rey looks to be firmly fighting on the side of the Resistance in TLJ. Her final costume is described promotionally as “Jedi Training”. While I do think that description might not be as straightforward as it sounds, it still indicates that by the final act she knows what she wants and has found her place. Kylo looks to be further unraveling in what we’ve seen of TLJ so far. Snoke isn’t satisfied with him, even after killing Han. He is going to push and push until Kylo has no choice but to go all in or break away. I really don’t see how they can keep him dangling on that string through into Episode IX. Rian also said he didn’t want to leave TLJ with a dot dot dot question mark, and Adam has hinted at (hopefully) unexpected developments for Kylo. I want redemption so bad, it’s always been the most important thing for me. I’m keeping an open mind because I want to avoid disappointment and get some enjoyment out of the movie come what may, but I’d be lying if I said my heart wasn’t set on Kylo choosing to honour his mother’s legacy (and father and uncle) rather than Vader’s and staying under Snoke’s thrall.

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Re: Character Development in The Last Jedi?

Post by Saracene on Tue 24 Oct - 0:32

Personally, I’m sceptical about getting fixated on the sound bites from the director too much. It’s like, in one instance Rian describes Kylo as half of the protagonist, in another he refers to him as a villain who’s fantastic because he’s a weak villain, or a villain whose flaws are clear to see (or something to this effect). If you believe that Kylo is a protagonist, you can find something that backs this up, if you think he’s a villain you can also isolate a specific comment to back this up. It’s like, Reylos often bring up JJ’s commentary quote about a “prince” in the Takodana scene, but omit the bit where, in the same breath, he also says, “you’re going to have the bad guy, who’s probably dressed in black”, which obviously refers to Kylo.

Apart from many other things, for Kylo to commit to the dark side at the end of TLJ makes for a weird arc. He struggles in TFA, kills his father to seal the dark side deal... then struggles some more in TLJ, then fully commits to the dark side?
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Re: Character Development in The Last Jedi?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Tue 24 Oct - 6:49

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:Rian Johnson reportedly said that by the end of TLJ we would know who to root for and where the characters stood. That doesn’t sound like Kylo’s allegiances will be left hanging one way or the other. I want to see something decisive from him at the end of this movie because he can’t go on being torn apart. Many people are speculating that Kylo holding his hand out, most likely to Rey, comes towards the end of the movie. How can Rey take it or Kylo have any hope of her accepting if he’s still in league with Snoke and the First Order? Rey looks to be firmly fighting on the side of the Resistance in TLJ. Her final costume is described promotionally as “Jedi Training”. While I do think that description might not be as straightforward as it sounds, it still indicates that by the final act she knows what she wants and has found her place. Kylo looks to be further unraveling in what we’ve seen of TLJ so far. Snoke isn’t satisfied with him, even after killing Han. He is going to push and push until Kylo has no choice but to go all in or break away. I really don’t see how they can keep him dangling on that string through into Episode IX. Rian also said he didn’t want to leave TLJ with a dot dot dot question mark, and Adam has hinted at (hopefully) unexpected developments for Kylo. I want redemption so bad, it’s always been the most important thing for me. I’m keeping an open mind because I want to avoid disappointment and get some enjoyment out of the movie come what may, but I’d be lying if I said my heart wasn’t set on Kylo choosing to honour his mother’s legacy (and father and uncle) rather than Vader’s and staying under Snoke’s thrall.
@Mrs Ben Solo
Again, this feels like nothing but a strawman in a similar vein to your first post, in which you implied that many of us were calling Luke a coward for admitting his fear (and how we were oh-so wrong because [insert largely unrelated quote]). He did that in the trailer, btw. Those were his actual words to Rey. And I say strawman for this as well because I never said Kylo's allegiances wouldn't be clear by the end of this film. "Full white Jedi hero" is not the only potential outcome for Kylo, least of all not after the span of a single movie. A character's allegiances can be clear to the audience and also not be clear to other characters. The audience should know where Kylo stands, doesn't mean every remaining member of the Resistance is going to be ready to welcome him with open arms or that his family will be ready to forgive him. As long as we know where he stands I don't see why Kylo has to fully commit to the light side again in one story arc.

And before you jump all over this and try to say I'm advocating for a Jedi who can use the light and dark sides, I'm not. There's going to be some new Force usage idea introduced in this trilogy and Rey and Kylo are probably destined to be the first members. They both have equal affinities for the light and dark, which could easily be where the #rawpower originates from because the Force is being torn apart within them and is difficult to control.

As for Rey, we'll see. I think it's premature and ridiculously pessimistic based on all our current information to say that, despite all nuance and ambiguity and "weirdness", we're probably still getting the story of perfect Jedi Rey, perfect Jedi Luke and evil dark sider Kylo. They're opening the floodgates and having whatever is so f***ed about Kylo seep into Rey. Luke's freaked out, things are all messed up and they're only going to be more messed up by this film's conclusion. We have another movie left after this, remember?

As Saracene pointed out below, Kylo repeating his development in TFA only to be fully committed to the dark side is a weird arc. Especially if you consider his "Start A" point in this film, which involves him doing everything he can to prove to himself and to Snoke that killing is father was worth it. It makes zero sense narratively for Kylo to get everything he wants, get over his struggle and have Han be wrong about him all in the breath of a single film. And if that's the story we're getting, I'm dropping this trilogy like a rock. No room for disappointment as it will go beyond that for me. I became invested in this trilogy because I saw a very powerful redemption story playing out in the future, not because I'm a big fan of SW and want to love every film no matter what. I want to love the story because it's a good story.
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Re: Character Development in The Last Jedi?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Tue 24 Oct - 7:03

Apologies for the double-post, just figured these character descriptions from SW.com might be useful in this thread.
Rey: Rey, now aware of the awakening power of the Force, travels to the hidden world of Ahch-To. She is looking for Luke Skywalker, who is the last Jedi Master in the Galaxy and the last hope for the Resistance. Rey was hoping to find a legendary hero – she instead found a man who disagrees with her expectations.

Finn: Finn, a former operative of the First Order, previously dedicated himself to the cause of fighting for the Resistance continues the fight. Now, he’s at a crossroads over his role in the war.

Poe: Now that the conflict between the First Order and the Resistance has escalated into total war, Poe is shining as a leader of a courageous flying battalion. But while he is brave and a skilled pilot, both the First Order and the Resistance alike are starting to fear his dedication to the war effort.

Kylo Ren: Humiliated by his defeat at Rey’s hands, Kylo Ren redoubles his efforts to crush the Resistance. However, although his powers in the Dark Side continue to increase, it is still not enough to impress his shadowy mentor – First Order Supreme Leader Snoke.

Jedi Master Luke Skywalker: After his attempt to rebuild the Jedi Order was ruined, Luke Skywalker disappeared from the Galaxy in search of answers, leading him to the planet Ahch-To. Though he seems intent to live out a modest lifestyle away from the war, the Resistance needs the hero who defeated Darth Vader to stand a chance against the First Order.

General Leia Organa: Leia Organa, whose son betrayed her and fell to the Dark Side, is leading the struggling Resistance fleet. General Leia takes advantage of her decades of experience in order to halt the First Order’s advances.

Supreme Leader Snoke: Snoke, the shadowy leader of the First Order, finally emerges from the shadows to lead the First Order to victory after the destruction of Starkiller Base.
Poe's is the most interesting to me as I've been theorizing since the trailer dropped that there's something seriously up with him. Like, he's going to become majorly unhinged and go on a twisted suicide mission and try to destroy everything in this movie, kind of like Felldoh in Martin the Warrior (A Tale of Redwall). If he's scaring both the First Order and the Resistance now, nice. Sounds really promising for his character arc, way more interesting than him being the ace pilot who is perfect and beautiful and has lovely pure friendship with every character.
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Re: Character Development in The Last Jedi?

Post by panki on Tue 24 Oct - 7:29

I don't think Poe's description comes across as him being unhinged. If he is shining as a leader, then he is no Saw Gerrera who killed women and children to terrorize the empire....he is becoming more and more like young Leia who was prepared to die for her beliefs and wanting to completely defeat the Empire (FO in his case). Some factions of the resistance might not like this, especially if they want to compromise with the FO.


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Re: Character Development in The Last Jedi?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Tue 24 Oct - 7:41

@Panki
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I think unhinged!Poe would be a really interesting direction for the character, especially if he becomes distraught after losing Paige. We don't know their relationship, yet. Could be something of a romantic connection, could be more of a teacher-student bond, but she's probably going to end up being important to him and seeing her die at the hands of the FO could definitely unhinge something in his mind. I'm not saying I want Poe to die, but either providing a sacrifice or developing and getting over a huge loss could be surprisingly nuanced and powerful for a character most of us thought would just be the cool hero dude for 3 movies.


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Re: Character Development in The Last Jedi?

Post by Mana on Tue 24 Oct - 7:53

Regarding Amilyn Holdo and Leia, I'm really looking forward to them having a potentially antagonistic relationship in TLJ. We saw how they were together as teenagers, but they've been through a lot since then and Amilyn was present when Leia went through her first heartbreak and first real personal loss...
I want to see how that relationship has stood the test of time and everything that's happened to Leia since (with the Vader reveal and potential Kylo-is-Ben reveal that could happen).
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Re: Character Development in The Last Jedi?

Post by panki on Tue 24 Oct - 8:08

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@Panki
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I think unhinged!Poe would be a really interesting direction for the character, especially if he becomes distraught after losing Paige. We don't know their relationship, yet. Could be something of a romantic connection, could be more of a teacher-student bond, but she's probably going to end up being important to him and seeing her die at the hand's of the FO could definitely unhinge something in his mind. I'm not saying I want Poe to die, but either providing a sacrifice or developing and getting over a huge loss could be surprisingly nuanced and powerful for a character most of us thought would just be the cool hero dude for 3 movies.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I am definitely keen on a Paige- Poe romance but if that takes place, I don't see why Paige has to be killed off and Poe getting unhinged is necessary for a good story. That ring on Poe's neck could belong to his mother (his first real loss) or father, and could be something he carries as a god luck charm - as most pilots do in the real world. It could be a good way to bring in the force tree in Poe's farm as well.

I've seen theories where Poe is Leia's toy boy, the resistance lothario, dying in a suicide mission, losing his wife/fiance/lover, getting maimed, getting unhinged (when there is absolutely nothing in canon to substantiate them)...if SW is about hope, where is the hope in such messages? Poe's parents left the resistance to be there for their son and bring him up in a better world....Going by that logic, maybe an equally good story could be Rose dying at Phasma's hands and Finn finally deciding to stop running and fight instead....if we go by Finn's write up.

While I know the saga is about the Skywalkers getting their way at every turn no matter what they do, it shouldn't mean that non-Skywalkers have to suffer unnecessarily.

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Re: Character Development in The Last Jedi?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Tue 24 Oct - 8:19

@panki wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@Panki
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I think unhinged!Poe would be a really interesting direction for the character, especially if he becomes distraught after losing Paige. We don't know their relationship, yet. Could be something of a romantic connection, could be more of a teacher-student bond, but she's probably going to end up being important to him and seeing her die at the hand's of the FO could definitely unhinge something in his mind. I'm not saying I want Poe to die, but either providing a sacrifice or developing and getting over a huge loss could be surprisingly nuanced and powerful for a character most of us thought would just be the cool hero dude for 3 movies.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I am definitely keen on a Paige- Poe romance but if that takes place, I don't see why Paige has to be killed off and Poe getting unhinged is necessary for a good story. That ring on Poe's neck could belong to his mother (his first real loss) or father, and could be something he carries as a god luck charm - as most pilots do in the real world. It could be a good way to bring in the force tree in Poe's farm as well.

I've seen theories where Poe is Leia's toy boy, the resistance lothario, dying in a suicide mission, losing his wife/fiance/lover, getting maimed, getting unhinged...if SW is about hope, where is the hope in such messages? Poe's parents left the resistance to be there for their son and bring him up in a better world....Going by that logic, maybe an equally good story could be Rose dying at Phasma's hands could Finn finally deciding to stop running and fight instead.

While I know the saga is about the Skywalkers getting their way at every turn no matter what they do, it shouldn't mean that non-Skywalkers have to suffer unnecessarily.
@panki
Have you considered that Poe may be used as a sort of foil to Kylo in this movie? While Kylo's connection to the war starts out as strong as ever, it may begin to wane just as Poe becomes something of an extremist figure for the Resistance. We could be left wondering if we're really supposed to be rooting for that kind of hero at all, blurring the lines between good and evil in the form of a small-scale character arc. I'm not saying he has to be like Saw Gerrara and slaughter innocents (I wouldn't want that at all), but risking his own life and possibly the lives of his friends and companions in order to get a leg up on the First Order after losing Paige could be unsettling and really interesting. Furthermore, Leia sees Poe as something of a replacement son, and watching that replacement son fall down a dark road could lead Leia in a powerful direction as well.

Poe is not a Skywalker or a Solo, is not Force Sensitive and isn't one of the "main" characters with regards to narrative. I know this may sound like an illogical argument to you, but coming-of-age stories all about hope and optimism still have characters go down unending paths of darkness that they can't recover from. That's not going to be Kylo's story, but I see no problem at all with Poe doing a 180 on us and providing us with an extremist perspective on what is meant to be the "good" side. This could be an especially interesting turn of events if Poe ends up clashing with Hux, the character who very much represents the most facist, extremist side of the First Order.
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Re: Character Development in The Last Jedi?

Post by Night Huntress on Tue 24 Oct - 8:19

@panki wrote:
I've seen theories where Poe is Leia's toy boy, the resistance lothario, dying in a suicide mission, losing his wife/fiance/lover, getting maimed, getting unhinged (when there is absolutely nothing in canon to substantiate them)..
@panki

what??? Shocked where did that came from???? Sorry, but that's so absurd it's funny! Lolilol Lolilol Lolilol

Surrogate son I get- but lover??? Please people give me brake! WTH

I really like Poe- his so who talks first? You talk first? I talk first? line to Kylo is hilarious! Laughing
So I hope he will get his happy ending and don't be killed off or anything like that.
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Re: Character Development in The Last Jedi?

Post by panki on Tue 24 Oct - 8:53

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@panki wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@Panki
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I think unhinged!Poe would be a really interesting direction for the character, especially if he becomes distraught after losing Paige. We don't know their relationship, yet. Could be something of a romantic connection, could be more of a teacher-student bond, but she's probably going to end up being important to him and seeing her die at the hand's of the FO could definitely unhinge something in his mind. I'm not saying I want Poe to die, but either providing a sacrifice or developing and getting over a huge loss could be surprisingly nuanced and powerful for a character most of us thought would just be the cool hero dude for 3 movies.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I am definitely keen on a Paige- Poe romance but if that takes place, I don't see why Paige has to be killed off and Poe getting unhinged is necessary for a good story. That ring on Poe's neck could belong to his mother (his first real loss) or father, and could be something he carries as a god luck charm - as most pilots do in the real world. It could be a good way to bring in the force tree in Poe's farm as well.

I've seen theories where Poe is Leia's toy boy, the resistance lothario, dying in a suicide mission, losing his wife/fiance/lover, getting maimed, getting unhinged...if SW is about hope, where is the hope in such messages? Poe's parents left the resistance to be there for their son and bring him up in a better world....Going by that logic, maybe an equally good story could be Rose dying at Phasma's hands could Finn finally deciding to stop running and fight instead.

While I know the saga is about the Skywalkers getting their way at every turn no matter what they do, it shouldn't mean that non-Skywalkers have to suffer unnecessarily.
@panki
Have you considered that Poe may be used as a sort of foil to Kylo in this movie? While Kylo's connection to the war starts out as strong as ever, it may begin to wane just as Poe becomes something of an extremist figure for the Resistance. We could be left wondering if we're really supposed to be rooting for that kind of hero at all, blurring the lines between good and evil in the form of a small-scale character arc. I'm not saying he has to be like Saw Gerrara and slaughter innocents (I wouldn't want that at all), but risking his own life and possibly the lives of his friends and companions in order to get a leg up on the First Order after losing Paige could be unsettling and really interesting. Furthermore, Leia sees Poe as something of a replacement son, and watching that replacement son fall down a dark road could lead Leia in a powerful direction as well.

Poe is not a Skywalker or a Solo, is not Force Sensitive and isn't one of the "main" characters with regards to narrative. I know this may sound like an illogical argument to you, but coming-of-age stories all about hope and optimism still have characters go down unending paths of darkness that they can't recover from. That's not going to be Kylo's story, but I see no problem at all with Poe doing a 180 on us and providing us with an extremist perspective on what is meant to be the "good" side. This could be an especially interesting turn of events if Poe ends up clashing with Hux, the character who very much represents the most facist, extremist side of the First Order.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I think we have to agree to disagree on this. For one thing, you are basing your theory on the possibility that Poe is the foil for Kylo and if Kylo needs to be redeemed, someone else has to go dark.

If we go by bothan spy's old leaks, I would think it was Finn taking this road since he is rumored to cut Phasma's arm to avenge someone...it sounds more like something bad happening to Rose...and for all we know it could be Finn turning militant.

Poe is supposed to teach Paige the controls of a ship- and suddenly their relationship has become an epic romance which drives him over the edge when she supposedly dies? It is a fact that he is single in the comics even shortly before TFA.....and suddenly he has this wild epic romance that is going to make him crazy?

In the Poe comics, the Duros pilot who brought him up from childhood when his mother died and who is an uncle to him was blown up in front of his eyes... and this is someone who is family to him....instead of going crazy, he stood by Leia and the other squad members through the funeral and even forgave the character whose betrayal lead to the death, even trying to save his life from the FO.....and this is how Poe acts in canon when someone he loves dies....so his getting unhinged in the hypothetical event of his hypothetical gf's death goes against his canon behavior.

Poe isn't a stranger to losing loved ones...he lost his mother when he was 8, his uncle and even some of his close friends...... He didn't lead a happy uncomplicated life that he needs to do a 180 degree turn down a dark path for story purposes.

@Night Huntress wrote:
@panki wrote:
I've seen theories where Poe is Leia's toy boy, the resistance lothario, dying in a suicide mission, losing his wife/fiance/lover, getting maimed, getting unhinged (when there is absolutely nothing in canon to substantiate them)..
@panki

what???  Shocked   where did that came from???? Sorry, but that's so absurd it's funny! Lolilol Lolilol Lolilol

Surrogate son I get- but lover??? Please people give me brake! WTH

I really like Poe- his so who talks first? You talk first? I talk first? line to Kylo is hilarious! Laughing
So I hope he will get his happy ending and don't be killed off or anything like that.
@Night Huntress

I've actually heard this mentioned more times than you can imagine....even seen some wild fan fics on the topic....even with Han still alive or sometimes just after the funeral.... Shocked

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Re: Character Development in The Last Jedi?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Tue 24 Oct - 9:04

@panki wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@panki wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@Panki
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I think unhinged!Poe would be a really interesting direction for the character, especially if he becomes distraught after losing Paige. We don't know their relationship, yet. Could be something of a romantic connection, could be more of a teacher-student bond, but she's probably going to end up being important to him and seeing her die at the hand's of the FO could definitely unhinge something in his mind. I'm not saying I want Poe to die, but either providing a sacrifice or developing and getting over a huge loss could be surprisingly nuanced and powerful for a character most of us thought would just be the cool hero dude for 3 movies.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I am definitely keen on a Paige- Poe romance but if that takes place, I don't see why Paige has to be killed off and Poe getting unhinged is necessary for a good story. That ring on Poe's neck could belong to his mother (his first real loss) or father, and could be something he carries as a god luck charm - as most pilots do in the real world. It could be a good way to bring in the force tree in Poe's farm as well.

I've seen theories where Poe is Leia's toy boy, the resistance lothario, dying in a suicide mission, losing his wife/fiance/lover, getting maimed, getting unhinged...if SW is about hope, where is the hope in such messages? Poe's parents left the resistance to be there for their son and bring him up in a better world....Going by that logic, maybe an equally good story could be Rose dying at Phasma's hands could Finn finally deciding to stop running and fight instead.

While I know the saga is about the Skywalkers getting their way at every turn no matter what they do, it shouldn't mean that non-Skywalkers have to suffer unnecessarily.
@panki
Have you considered that Poe may be used as a sort of foil to Kylo in this movie? While Kylo's connection to the war starts out as strong as ever, it may begin to wane just as Poe becomes something of an extremist figure for the Resistance. We could be left wondering if we're really supposed to be rooting for that kind of hero at all, blurring the lines between good and evil in the form of a small-scale character arc. I'm not saying he has to be like Saw Gerrara and slaughter innocents (I wouldn't want that at all), but risking his own life and possibly the lives of his friends and companions in order to get a leg up on the First Order after losing Paige could be unsettling and really interesting. Furthermore, Leia sees Poe as something of a replacement son, and watching that replacement son fall down a dark road could lead Leia in a powerful direction as well.

Poe is not a Skywalker or a Solo, is not Force Sensitive and isn't one of the "main" characters with regards to narrative. I know this may sound like an illogical argument to you, but coming-of-age stories all about hope and optimism still have characters go down unending paths of darkness that they can't recover from. That's not going to be Kylo's story, but I see no problem at all with Poe doing a 180 on us and providing us with an extremist perspective on what is meant to be the "good" side. This could be an especially interesting turn of events if Poe ends up clashing with Hux, the character who very much represents the most facist, extremist side of the First Order.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I think we have to agree to disagree on this. For one thing, you are basing your theory on the possibility that Poe is the foil for Kylo and if Kylo needs to be redeemed, someone else has to go dark.

If we go by bothan spy's old leaks, I would think it was Finn taking this road since he is rumored to cut Phasma's arm to avenge someone...it sounds more like something bad happening to Rose...and for all we know it could be Finn turning militant.

Poe is supposed to teach Paige the controls of a ship- and suddenly their relationship has become an epic romance which drives him over the edge when she supposedly dies? It is a fact that he is single in the comics even shortly before TFA.....and suddenly he has this wild epic romance that is going to make him crazy?

In the Poe comics, the Duros pilot who brought him up from childhood when his mother died and who is an uncle to him was blown up in front of his eyes... and this is someone who is family to him....instead of going crazy, he stood by Leia and the other squad members through the funeral and even forgave the character whose betrayal lead to the death, even trying to save his life from the FO.....and this is how Poe acts in canon when someone he loves dies....so his getting unhinged in the hypothetical event of his hypothetical gf's death goes against his canon behavior.

Poe isn't a stranger to losing loved ones...he lost his mother when he was 8, his uncle and even some of his close friends...... He didn't lead a happy uncomplicated life that he needs to do a 180 degree turn down a dark path for story purposes.

@Night Huntress wrote:
@panki wrote:
I've seen theories where Poe is Leia's toy boy, the resistance lothario, dying in a suicide mission, losing his wife/fiance/lover, getting maimed, getting unhinged (when there is absolutely nothing in canon to substantiate them)..
@panki

what???  Shocked   where did that came from???? Sorry, but that's so absurd it's funny! Lolilol Lolilol Lolilol

Surrogate son I get- but lover??? Please people give me brake! WTH

I really like Poe- his so who talks first? You talk first? I talk first? line to Kylo is hilarious! Laughing
So I hope he will get his happy ending and don't be killed off or anything like that.
@Night Huntress

I've actually heard this mentioned more times than you can imagine....even seen some wild fan fics on the topic....even with Han still alive or sometimes just after the funeral.... Shocked
@panki
I'm not basing it on someone having to go dark just because Kylo is likely to be redeemed. I didn't say that at all. Kylo already has Rey and Luke as foils and that could be as far as they go with it. There's no rule that states anything has to happen in order for another thing to happen. I was just theorizing on a possibility that came to mind after the trailer and this new character description. I also didn't say there was supposed to be some "epic romance" between Poe and Paige. Like, at all. I presume they already know each other as of the beginning of TLJ and Poe will have some connection to her and will be upset if/when she dies, not that they're going to develop a random intense romance in the span of a few minutes that leads Poe to break down. That's definitely not going to happen and I never posited that it would. Honestly, I have no idea where you got a lot of the arguments you're saying I made. It was just an idea for a character I wanted to discuss in the thread for character development.

The GA has not seen/read the comics and only has TFA to go by. They don't know the finer details of Poe's history or state of mind and all of that will likely be largely irrelevant to whatever struggle he faces in TLJ. We all have different tastes in fiction. I would love to see Poe represent a more extreme side of the Resistance, you might not want that. And that's okay.

Why is it nobody can theorize about Poe in any light that extends beyond what you personally want to see from him without being put under the firing squad and having any ideas blown way out of proportion?
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FrolickingFizzgig
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Re: Character Development in The Last Jedi?

Post by panki on Tue 24 Oct - 9:26

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@panki wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@panki wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@Panki
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I think unhinged!Poe would be a really interesting direction for the character, especially if he becomes distraught after losing Paige. We don't know their relationship, yet. Could be something of a romantic connection, could be more of a teacher-student bond, but she's probably going to end up being important to him and seeing her die at the hand's of the FO could definitely unhinge something in his mind. I'm not saying I want Poe to die, but either providing a sacrifice or developing and getting over a huge loss could be surprisingly nuanced and powerful for a character most of us thought would just be the cool hero dude for 3 movies.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I am definitely keen on a Paige- Poe romance but if that takes place, I don't see why Paige has to be killed off and Poe getting unhinged is necessary for a good story. That ring on Poe's neck could belong to his mother (his first real loss) or father, and could be something he carries as a god luck charm - as most pilots do in the real world. It could be a good way to bring in the force tree in Poe's farm as well.

I've seen theories where Poe is Leia's toy boy, the resistance lothario, dying in a suicide mission, losing his wife/fiance/lover, getting maimed, getting unhinged...if SW is about hope, where is the hope in such messages? Poe's parents left the resistance to be there for their son and bring him up in a better world....Going by that logic, maybe an equally good story could be Rose dying at Phasma's hands could Finn finally deciding to stop running and fight instead.

While I know the saga is about the Skywalkers getting their way at every turn no matter what they do, it shouldn't mean that non-Skywalkers have to suffer unnecessarily.
@panki
Have you considered that Poe may be used as a sort of foil to Kylo in this movie? While Kylo's connection to the war starts out as strong as ever, it may begin to wane just as Poe becomes something of an extremist figure for the Resistance. We could be left wondering if we're really supposed to be rooting for that kind of hero at all, blurring the lines between good and evil in the form of a small-scale character arc. I'm not saying he has to be like Saw Gerrara and slaughter innocents (I wouldn't want that at all), but risking his own life and possibly the lives of his friends and companions in order to get a leg up on the First Order after losing Paige could be unsettling and really interesting. Furthermore, Leia sees Poe as something of a replacement son, and watching that replacement son fall down a dark road could lead Leia in a powerful direction as well.

Poe is not a Skywalker or a Solo, is not Force Sensitive and isn't one of the "main" characters with regards to narrative. I know this may sound like an illogical argument to you, but coming-of-age stories all about hope and optimism still have characters go down unending paths of darkness that they can't recover from. That's not going to be Kylo's story, but I see no problem at all with Poe doing a 180 on us and providing us with an extremist perspective on what is meant to be the "good" side. This could be an especially interesting turn of events if Poe ends up clashing with Hux, the character who very much represents the most facist, extremist side of the First Order.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I think we have to agree to disagree on this. For one thing, you are basing your theory on the possibility that Poe is the foil for Kylo and if Kylo needs to be redeemed, someone else has to go dark.

If we go by bothan spy's old leaks, I would think it was Finn taking this road since he is rumored to cut Phasma's arm to avenge someone...it sounds more like something bad happening to Rose...and for all we know it could be Finn turning militant.

Poe is supposed to teach Paige the controls of a ship- and suddenly their relationship has become an epic romance which drives him over the edge when she supposedly dies? It is a fact that he is single in the comics even shortly before TFA.....and suddenly he has this wild epic romance that is going to make him crazy?

In the Poe comics, the Duros pilot who brought him up from childhood when his mother died and who is an uncle to him was blown up in front of his eyes... and this is someone who is family to him....instead of going crazy, he stood by Leia and the other squad members through the funeral and even forgave the character whose betrayal lead to the death, even trying to save his life from the FO.....and this is how Poe acts in canon when someone he loves dies....so his getting unhinged in the hypothetical event of his hypothetical gf's death goes against his canon behavior.

Poe isn't a stranger to losing loved ones...he lost his mother when he was 8, his uncle and even some of his close friends...... He didn't lead a happy uncomplicated life that he needs to do a 180 degree turn down a dark path for story purposes.

@Night Huntress wrote:
@panki wrote:
I've seen theories where Poe is Leia's toy boy, the resistance lothario, dying in a suicide mission, losing his wife/fiance/lover, getting maimed, getting unhinged (when there is absolutely nothing in canon to substantiate them)..
@panki

what???  Shocked   where did that came from???? Sorry, but that's so absurd it's funny! Lolilol Lolilol Lolilol

Surrogate son I get- but lover??? Please people give me brake! WTH

I really like Poe- his so who talks first? You talk first? I talk first? line to Kylo is hilarious! Laughing
So I hope he will get his happy ending and don't be killed off or anything like that.
@Night Huntress

I've actually heard this mentioned more times than you can imagine....even seen some wild fan fics on the topic....even with Han still alive or sometimes just after the funeral.... Shocked
@panki
I'm not basing it on someone having to go dark just because Kylo is likely to be redeemed. I didn't say that at all. Kylo already has Rey and Luke as foils and that could be as far as they go with it. There's no rule that states anything has to happen in order for another thing to happen. I was just theorizing on a possibility that came to mind after the trailer and this new character description. I also didn't say there was supposed to be some "epic romance" between Poe and Paige. Like, at all. I presume they already know each other as of the beginning of TLJ and Poe will have some connection to her and will be upset if/when she dies, not that they're going to develop a random intense romance in the span of a few minutes that leads Poe to break down. That's definitely not going to happen and I never posited that it would. Honestly, I have no idea where you got a lot of the arguments you're saying I made. It was just an idea for a character I wanted to discuss in the thread for character development.

The GA has not seen/read the comics and only has TFA to go by. They don't know the finer details of Poe's history or state of mind and all of that will likely be largely irrelevant to whatever struggle he faces in TLJ. We all have different tastes in fiction. I would love to see Poe represent a more extreme side of the Resistance, you might not want that. And that's okay.

Why is it nobody can theorize about Poe in any light that extends beyond what you personally want to see from him without being put under the firing squad and having any ideas blown way out of proportion?
@FrolickingFizzgig

1. You said that Poe gets unhinged after Paige's death...if she is just a mere acquaintance or a general LI, why would he get unhinged over it? By the same coin, Poe should have been unhinged when his squad members died during the battle of SKB as well...while you did not exactly use the word epic, one can assume that the relationship you are theorising is significant enough to affect him....hence my use of the word 'epic'.

2. While the GA might not know whats in the comics, there will be a consistency in how a character is treated in the comics, novels and movies. Hence, if Poe doesn't go nuts when people he loved from childhood die in front of him and even go as far as forgiving and trying to save the person he knows is responsible, why would they portray him as something different in the movies?

While I understand you might like the scenario of Poe being unhinged and turning extremist, it makes no sense to me based on how they depict him in the books and comics.

3. I have no issue with people speculating whatever they like....I only responded when I felt something went against the established canon about a person.....not my headcanon but actual canon....if you feel so stringly, I can even post screenshots of the scene where he is talking to the guy responsible for his uncle's death and wishing things could have been different.

panki
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Re: Character Development in The Last Jedi?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Tue 24 Oct - 9:30

@panki wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@panki wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@panki wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@Panki
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I think unhinged!Poe would be a really interesting direction for the character, especially if he becomes distraught after losing Paige. We don't know their relationship, yet. Could be something of a romantic connection, could be more of a teacher-student bond, but she's probably going to end up being important to him and seeing her die at the hand's of the FO could definitely unhinge something in his mind. I'm not saying I want Poe to die, but either providing a sacrifice or developing and getting over a huge loss could be surprisingly nuanced and powerful for a character most of us thought would just be the cool hero dude for 3 movies.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I am definitely keen on a Paige- Poe romance but if that takes place, I don't see why Paige has to be killed off and Poe getting unhinged is necessary for a good story. That ring on Poe's neck could belong to his mother (his first real loss) or father, and could be something he carries as a god luck charm - as most pilots do in the real world. It could be a good way to bring in the force tree in Poe's farm as well.

I've seen theories where Poe is Leia's toy boy, the resistance lothario, dying in a suicide mission, losing his wife/fiance/lover, getting maimed, getting unhinged...if SW is about hope, where is the hope in such messages? Poe's parents left the resistance to be there for their son and bring him up in a better world....Going by that logic, maybe an equally good story could be Rose dying at Phasma's hands could Finn finally deciding to stop running and fight instead.

While I know the saga is about the Skywalkers getting their way at every turn no matter what they do, it shouldn't mean that non-Skywalkers have to suffer unnecessarily.
@panki
Have you considered that Poe may be used as a sort of foil to Kylo in this movie? While Kylo's connection to the war starts out as strong as ever, it may begin to wane just as Poe becomes something of an extremist figure for the Resistance. We could be left wondering if we're really supposed to be rooting for that kind of hero at all, blurring the lines between good and evil in the form of a small-scale character arc. I'm not saying he has to be like Saw Gerrara and slaughter innocents (I wouldn't want that at all), but risking his own life and possibly the lives of his friends and companions in order to get a leg up on the First Order after losing Paige could be unsettling and really interesting. Furthermore, Leia sees Poe as something of a replacement son, and watching that replacement son fall down a dark road could lead Leia in a powerful direction as well.

Poe is not a Skywalker or a Solo, is not Force Sensitive and isn't one of the "main" characters with regards to narrative. I know this may sound like an illogical argument to you, but coming-of-age stories all about hope and optimism still have characters go down unending paths of darkness that they can't recover from. That's not going to be Kylo's story, but I see no problem at all with Poe doing a 180 on us and providing us with an extremist perspective on what is meant to be the "good" side. This could be an especially interesting turn of events if Poe ends up clashing with Hux, the character who very much represents the most facist, extremist side of the First Order.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I think we have to agree to disagree on this. For one thing, you are basing your theory on the possibility that Poe is the foil for Kylo and if Kylo needs to be redeemed, someone else has to go dark.

If we go by bothan spy's old leaks, I would think it was Finn taking this road since he is rumored to cut Phasma's arm to avenge someone...it sounds more like something bad happening to Rose...and for all we know it could be Finn turning militant.

Poe is supposed to teach Paige the controls of a ship- and suddenly their relationship has become an epic romance which drives him over the edge when she supposedly dies? It is a fact that he is single in the comics even shortly before TFA.....and suddenly he has this wild epic romance that is going to make him crazy?

In the Poe comics, the Duros pilot who brought him up from childhood when his mother died and who is an uncle to him was blown up in front of his eyes... and this is someone who is family to him....instead of going crazy, he stood by Leia and the other squad members through the funeral and even forgave the character whose betrayal lead to the death, even trying to save his life from the FO.....and this is how Poe acts in canon when someone he loves dies....so his getting unhinged in the hypothetical event of his hypothetical gf's death goes against his canon behavior.

Poe isn't a stranger to losing loved ones...he lost his mother when he was 8, his uncle and even some of his close friends...... He didn't lead a happy uncomplicated life that he needs to do a 180 degree turn down a dark path for story purposes.

@Night Huntress wrote:
@panki wrote:
I've seen theories where Poe is Leia's toy boy, the resistance lothario, dying in a suicide mission, losing his wife/fiance/lover, getting maimed, getting unhinged (when there is absolutely nothing in canon to substantiate them)..
@panki

what???  Shocked   where did that came from???? Sorry, but that's so absurd it's funny! Lolilol Lolilol Lolilol

Surrogate son I get- but lover??? Please people give me brake! WTH

I really like Poe- his so who talks first? You talk first? I talk first? line to Kylo is hilarious! Laughing
So I hope he will get his happy ending and don't be killed off or anything like that.
@Night Huntress

I've actually heard this mentioned more times than you can imagine....even seen some wild fan fics on the topic....even with Han still alive or sometimes just after the funeral.... Shocked
@panki
I'm not basing it on someone having to go dark just because Kylo is likely to be redeemed. I didn't say that at all. Kylo already has Rey and Luke as foils and that could be as far as they go with it. There's no rule that states anything has to happen in order for another thing to happen. I was just theorizing on a possibility that came to mind after the trailer and this new character description. I also didn't say there was supposed to be some "epic romance" between Poe and Paige. Like, at all. I presume they already know each other as of the beginning of TLJ and Poe will have some connection to her and will be upset if/when she dies, not that they're going to develop a random intense romance in the span of a few minutes that leads Poe to break down. That's definitely not going to happen and I never posited that it would. Honestly, I have no idea where you got a lot of the arguments you're saying I made. It was just an idea for a character I wanted to discuss in the thread for character development.

The GA has not seen/read the comics and only has TFA to go by. They don't know the finer details of Poe's history or state of mind and all of that will likely be largely irrelevant to whatever struggle he faces in TLJ. We all have different tastes in fiction. I would love to see Poe represent a more extreme side of the Resistance, you might not want that. And that's okay.

Why is it nobody can theorize about Poe in any light that extends beyond what you personally want to see from him without being put under the firing squad and having any ideas blown way out of proportion?
@FrolickingFizzgig

1. You said that Poe gets unhinged after Paige's death...if she is just a mere acquaintance or a general LI, why would he get unhinged over it? By the same coin, Poe should have been unhinged when his squad members died during the battle of SKB as well...while you did not exactly use the word epic, one can assume that the relationship you are theorising is significant enough to affect him....hence my use of the word 'epic'.

2. While the GA might not know whats in the comics, there will be a consistency in how a character is treated in the comics, novels and movies. Hence, if Poe doesn't go nuts when people he loved from childhood die in front of him and even go as far as forgiving and trying to save the person he knows is responsible, why would they portray him as something different in the movies?

While I understand you might like the scenario of Poe being unhinged and turning extremist, it makes no sense to me based on how they depict him in the books and comics.

3. I have no issue with people speculating whatever they like....I only responded when I felt something went against the established canon about a person.....not my headcanon but actual canon.

@panki
We don't know what his connection is yet with Paige. Maybe the ring around his neck figures into it somehow. Honestly, I have no idea. My only point is that Poe doesn't look like he's going to having a great, fun time in this movie. He looks sad in some promos, angry, upset, whatever. I think he's going to go off the deep end a little, you don't. Fair enough. I also think he may end up dying, but I tried to keep that line of speculation small because I know you really care for the character.

For the record even if he does go down an extremist path I expect him to either die a heroic death or move past it. If he's "scaring the Resistance and FO alike" specifically with regards to his dedication to war, my mind automatically goes to that place. It was just an idea, but I'm not going to react well to having my theorizing beat down because of loose canon that I've never read.
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FrolickingFizzgig
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