The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Thu 11 Jan 2018, 6:48 pm

@Tex

They want us to ship it  Cool

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Post by IoJovi on Thu 11 Jan 2018, 6:48 pm

@thescavenger wrote:
@Let The Past Die wrote:Just thought I would start a thread on those little observations we might have or questions regarding TLJ, that don't seem to fit elsewhere.

For example an observation I had was when Rey was brought into the throne room before Snoke, and during one of his speeches, he talks about the dark, and I think he raises his right hand, then he says about the light rising, and he raises his left hand, as if he were balancing scales, then he clasps his hand together as he says something along the lines of light coming to meet (it) the dark.

Now does anyone know the exact phrasing, and did he actually clasp and join his hands together? I'm not sure whether I'm making the hands together up, or is my memory playing tricks.

Because if Snoke did, then I'm calling it that Snoke foreshadowed Rey and Ben joining together.... Lol Laughing
Of course, I could just have remembered it wrong Embarassed
@Let The Past Die

I remembered this scene. For once, I thought Snoke might have had a peek into their connection, and was making fun of how they hold hands.

Sorry, also, a lot of emphasis on hands this movie. It's like Rian has a thing for hands. Outside of Reylo's hand emphasis, also Luke pressing Rey's hands onto the meditating rock platform, Poe squeezing Leia's hand while she's in a coma, Holdo and Leia's hand holding goodbyes, Rey in the cave mirror doing hand gestures, Luke's robot hand coming out for the Temple rubble. I know these are all very common, but it seems like the camera really lingers on hands more than usual. Also goes back to Mark Hamill's tweet about 'it's all about the hands'.
@thescavenger

This is wonderful and not something I’ve noticed yet. I also think it goes much further than Rey and Kylo touching hands in the hut. Instead, I think it foreshadows them as finally coming together as the end game pairing in IX, when all is said and done.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Post by Let The Past Die on Thu 11 Jan 2018, 6:54 pm

@thescavenger wrote:
@Let The Past Die wrote:Just thought I would start a thread on those little observations we might have or questions regarding TLJ, that don't seem to fit elsewhere.

For example an observation I had was when Rey was brought into the throne room before Snoke, and during one of his speeches, he talks about the dark, and I think he raises his right hand, then he says about the light rising, and he raises his left hand, as if he were balancing scales, then he clasps his hand together as he says something along the lines of light coming to meet (it) the dark.

Now does anyone know the exact phrasing, and did he actually clasp and join his hands together? I'm not sure whether I'm making the hands together up, or is my memory playing tricks.

Because if Snoke did, then I'm calling it that Snoke foreshadowed Rey and Ben joining together.... Lol Laughing
Of course, I could just have remembered it wrong Embarassed
@Let The Past Die

I remembered this scene. For once, I thought Snoke might have had a peek into their connection, and was making fun of how they hold hands.

Sorry, also, a lot of emphasis on hands this movie. It's like Rian has a thing for hands. Outside of Reylo's hand emphasis, also Luke pressing Rey's hands onto the meditating rock platform, Poe squeezing Leia's hand while she's in a coma, Holdo and Leia's hand holding goodbyes, Rey in the cave mirror doing hand gestures, Luke's robot hand coming out for the Temple rubble. I know these are all very common, but it seems like the camera really lingers on hands more than usual. Also goes back to Mark Hamill's tweet about 'it's all about the hands'.
@thescavenger

Hurrah, I remembered it right Thumbs up

Yes, there seemed to be emphasis on hands. Funnily enough I watched Rian Johnson's The brothers Bloom today, and hands stood out to me in that film too.

Going back to Snoke, I kind of think it's ironic he joins his two hands together the light and the dark, or Rey and Kylo joining together, the one thing he didn't want, he foreshadowed his own comeuppance....lol And hopefully a foreshadowing of them being together in IX Oh the irony Lolilol
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Post by DeeBee on Thu 11 Jan 2018, 9:45 pm

@Let The Past Die wrote:
@thescavenger wrote:
@Let The Past Die wrote:Just thought I would start a thread on those little observations we might have or questions regarding TLJ, that don't seem to fit elsewhere.

For example an observation I had was when Rey was brought into the throne room before Snoke, and during one of his speeches, he talks about the dark, and I think he raises his right hand, then he says about the light rising, and he raises his left hand, as if he were balancing scales, then he clasps his hand together as he says something along the lines of light coming to meet (it) the dark.

Now does anyone know the exact phrasing, and did he actually clasp and join his hands together? I'm not sure whether I'm making the hands together up, or is my memory playing tricks.

Because if Snoke did, then I'm calling it that Snoke foreshadowed Rey and Ben joining together.... Lol Laughing
Of course, I could just have remembered it wrong Embarassed
@Let The Past Die

I remembered this scene. For once, I thought Snoke might have had a peek into their connection, and was making fun of how they hold hands.

Sorry, also, a lot of emphasis on hands this movie. It's like Rian has a thing for hands. Outside of Reylo's hand emphasis, also Luke pressing Rey's hands onto the meditating rock platform, Poe squeezing Leia's hand while she's in a coma, Holdo and Leia's hand holding goodbyes, Rey in the cave mirror doing hand gestures, Luke's robot hand coming out for the Temple rubble. I know these are all very common, but it seems like the camera really lingers on hands more than usual. Also goes back to Mark Hamill's tweet about 'it's all about the hands'.
@thescavenger

Hurrah, I remembered it right Thumbs up

Yes, there seemed to be emphasis on hands. Funnily enough I watched Rian Johnson's The brothers Bloom today, and hands stood out to me in that film too.

Going back to Snoke, I kind of think it's ironic he joins his two hands together the light and the dark, or Rey and Kylo joining together, the one thing he didn't want, he foreshadowed his own comeuppance....lol And hopefully a foreshadowing of them being together in IX Oh the irony Lolilol
@Let The Past Die

Love it!!!! That's some full on hubris right there from Snoke- ha!!!
[more and more I see hubris as a key theme in TLJ!]
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Post by Darth Dementor on Thu 11 Jan 2018, 10:10 pm



I gotta agree with the part at 11:00, that thanks to TLJ we have no idea what to expect afterwards. You knew what the the good guys were going to do in ROTJ because of all the cliffhangers that had to be resolved. And the Prequels and Rogue One were preceding movies, so you already knew what was going to happen. TFA was a homage to Episodes 4 and 5 with some beats echoed exactly or in slightly off manner. This is the first SW movie since ANH to leave the ending in a way where there are endless possibilities to take.

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Post by Rei of Sunshine on Thu 11 Jan 2018, 11:00 pm

@Darth Dementor wrote:

I gotta agree with the part at 11:00, that thanks to TLJ we have no idea what to expect afterwards. You knew what the the good guys were going to do in ROTJ because of all the cliffhangers that had to be resolved. And the Prequels and Rogue One were preceding movies, so you already knew what was going to happen. TFA was a homage to Episodes 4 and 5 with some beats echoed exactly or in slightly off manner. This is the first SW movie since ANH to leave the ending in a way where there are endless possibilities to take.
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That thumbnail is disturbing
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Post by Kylo Men on Thu 11 Jan 2018, 11:54 pm

Erotic.

There.

Erotic, erotic, erotic.

I don't get the hesitation people feel.

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 11 Jan 2018, 11:56 pm

@MyOnlyHope wrote:Let's be real. The fanboy crowd chanting "Rey must be a Skywalker because this is the Skywalker saga" just didn't want to accept that the only Skywalker progeny in the ST might actually be the "he shouldn't have taken his mask off," "he got beat by a girl," cryface villain. He wasn't good enough. He "didn't count." Rey not being a Skywalker has nothing to do with how Lucasfilm plans to develop the Skywalker family and everything to do with the Skywalker quota already being filled by the one character who literally carries all the stakes in the story. There was a huge amount of resistance way back when to Kylo even being considered an important character. In fanboy corners, he was completely dismissed as a whiny, one-note villain who would probably be killed off and replaced by someone scarier. And to those fans losing the failure Skywalker didn't matter because "our angel Rey Skywalker is going to fix everything." There were even arguments at the time over if Leia and Kylo could be considered Skywalkers at all. "He's a Solo" they said. Lmfao good times.

If episode VIII solidified anything, it's how important Kylo really is in the grand scheme of things. He's the lost legacy of two trilogies and six films, literally the only remaining character who can right his own wrongs as well the wrongs of the past and his family (the prodigal son to a T). While Rey is very much the heroine, our eyes into this disfunctional family, Kylo is the focus, the character around with everything revolves.
@MyOnlyHope

He's also possibly the most memorable character Star Wars has ever had. And this from a Han Solo fan. Don' t get me wrong - I love the OC - but Kylo is fascinating because he is so unpredictable. Who thought at the beginning he would end up Supreme Leader? I could watch a dozen films with Kylo as the main character, he has endless possibilities.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Post by special_cases on Fri 12 Jan 2018, 12:16 am

@lauvamp wrote:After watching the video again, just wondering....why this "mystery" when (some) people talk about their connection in TLJ? I mean, why is that difficult to say "yes, it looks kinda romantic to me" or something like that? Were Rian and Mark the only ones clear about this topic? I swear I've never seen something like that about a movie before.



@lauvamp

Thank you for posting these gifs! Wow Rayne is so beautiful!

--

I saw that tweet from SW and run here at the light speed  lol!


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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Post by snufkin on Fri 12 Jan 2018, 12:29 am

This is excellent analysis, just don't freak out about the last sentence. And only read the comments if you haven't had your daily quota of indignant middle-aged white guys

HOW “STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI” MAKES KYLO REN EVEN MORE INTERESTING

we could deduce that Rey is afraid of relying on herself because it reminds her that she’s all alone, while Kylo is also afraid of relying on himself because he’s not confident enough to go it alone. In both cases, their fears make them team up with destructive people they don’t need. As tremendous as the dark side may be, it also seems to hold you back.

This leaves me very curious about where Kylo is headed next. Unlike Vader after “The Empire Strikes Back,” whose family ties paved a clearer path towards redemption, Kylo doesn’t have much to cling to at the end of “The Last Jedi.” You know he’s still fixated on Rey, but she made her choice, and he’s not interested in turning good. Possibly because he’s seen “good,” and it doesn’t deliver.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 12 Jan 2018, 12:43 am

[quote="snufkin"]This is excellent analysis, just don't freak out about the last sentence. And only read the comments if you haven't had your daily quota of indignant middle-aged white guys

HOW “STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI” MAKES KYLO REN EVEN MORE INTERESTING

we could deduce that Rey is afraid of relying on herself because it reminds her that she’s all alone, while Kylo is also afraid of relying on himself because he’s not confident enough to go it alone. In both cases, their fears make them team up with destructive people they don’t need. As tremendous as the dark side may be, it also seems to hold you back.

This leaves me very curious about where Kylo is headed next. Unlike Vader after “The Empire Strikes Back,” whose family ties paved a clearer path towards redemption, Kylo doesn’t have much to cling to at the end of “The Last Jedi.” You know he’s still fixated on Rey, but she made her choice, and he’s not interested in turning good. Possibly because he’s seen “good,” and it doesn’t deliver.[/quote]
@snufkin

Which is what I believe....stop and put yourself in this kid’s place for one minute. Sent away by his ’good’ mother to his ’good’ uncle, who tried to kill him. Offered sanctuary by an abusive creep who treated him like dirt. He ends up killing said creep for the only person who showed him any real kindness - who then spectacularly rejects him for an organisation who stole his mother and who he has been made to think are terrorists. Just as drug addicts and alcoholics need a reason as to why they should get clean and sober, then Kylo has to have something to make giving up the dark worth it for. And not the greater good of the galaxy, which has always come before him. Selfish yes, but he has the right to feel selfish, as hes always come last in the greater scheme of things. ’Sorry son, but the Republic must come first’ - mum. ’Sorry kid, but teaching other kids to fly and swanning round the galaxy must come first’ - dad. ’Sorry nephew, but I must kill you because an evil old predator got into your head from birth and none of us had the guts to kill him for you’ - sainted uncle. And here is a fascinating post on why the sabre might have broken;courtesy of reyloeyesofmist: https://roguewn.tumblr.com/post/168623016927/rey-and-anakins-lightsaber-what-went-wrong-this
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Post by Lily Snape on Fri 12 Jan 2018, 1:05 am

@Acritiqua wrote:My impression was the audience is supposed to like Poe at the end and write Kylo off.

Regarding Poe he's supposed to be the awesome hero that we're supposed to like and think is so incredible. I also wondered if Holdo's line about Poe being dangerous was supposed to let us know if we want a bad boy, look Poe is kind of a bad boy. Oh but he is also a hero. And we are supposed to like heroes.

Poe's piloting in the beginning was supposed to be super awesome and cool too. I personally found him obnoxious.
@Acritiqua

I didn’t get this vibe at all—if anything, I think Poe and Kylo were both in the same position at the end:  chastened and badly in need of a fresh start.  Poe has learned the lesson about following his superiors and valuing lives above dramatic actions.  Kylo has just unleashed everything in his power and has become the most powerful man in the GFFA and has clearly realized what he has lost in doing so.  They both kind of have their tails between their legs.

@snufkin
@motherofpearl1

“This leaves me very curious about where Kylo is headed next. Unlike Vader after “The Empire Strikes Back,” whose family ties paved a clearer path towards redemption, Kylo doesn’t have much to cling to at the end of “The Last Jedi.” You know he’s still fixated on Rey, but she made her choice, and he’s not interested in turning good.”

But Kylo isn’t 40-something with 20+ years of service to a twisted master behind him, having given up the love of his life and the family he longed for in favor of such fealty. Yes, finding that he actually does have family draws Vader back to the Light. But whereas Vader seems to do a good job of repressing doubts and qualms for over two decades, Kylo has clearly had these all along (“Forgive me, I feel it again, the pull to the Light...”). And unlike Vader at the time of the OT, Kylo still has (in a series of films that we are told are about love and family) a number of pretty common and significant adult milestones potentially ahead of him, things that he might well want. Clearly he was ready to hold hands with a girl for probably the first time in his life.


Last edited by Lily Snape on Fri 12 Jan 2018, 1:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Post by SoloSideCousin on Fri 12 Jan 2018, 1:10 am

[quote="motherofpearl1"]
@snufkin wrote:This is excellent analysis, just don't freak out about the last sentence. And only read the comments if you haven't had your daily quota of indignant middle-aged white guys

HOW “STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI” MAKES KYLO REN EVEN MORE INTERESTING

we could deduce that Rey is afraid of relying on herself because it reminds her that she’s all alone, while Kylo is also afraid of relying on himself because he’s not confident enough to go it alone. In both cases, their fears make them team up with destructive people they don’t need. As tremendous as the dark side may be, it also seems to hold you back.

This leaves me very curious about where Kylo is headed next. Unlike Vader after “The Empire Strikes Back,” whose family ties paved a clearer path towards redemption, Kylo doesn’t have much to cling to at the end of “The Last Jedi.” You know he’s still fixated on Rey, but she made her choice, and he’s not interested in turning good. Possibly because he’s seen “good,” and it doesn’t deliver.[/quote]
@snufkin

Which is what I believe....stop and put yourself in this kid’s place for one minute. Sent away by his ’good’ mother to his ’good’ uncle, who tried to kill him. Offered sanctuary by an abusive creep who treated him like dirt. He ends up killing said creep for the only person who showed him any real kindness - who then spectacularly rejects him for an organisation who stole his mother and who he has been made to think are terrorists. Just as drug addicts and alcoholics need a reason as to why they should get clean and sober, then Kylo has to have something to make giving up the dark worth it for. And not the greater good of the galaxy, which has always come before him. Selfish yes, but he has the right to feel selfish, as hes always come last in the greater scheme of things. ’Sorry son, but the Republic must come first’ - mum.  ’Sorry kid, but teaching other kids to fly and swanning round the galaxy must come first’ - dad. ’Sorry nephew, but I must kill you because an evil old predator got into your head from birth and none of us had the guts to kill him for you’ - sainted uncle. And here is a fascinating post on why the sabre might have broken;courtesy of reyloeyesofmist: https://roguewn.tumblr.com/post/168623016927/rey-and-anakins-lightsaber-what-went-wrong-this
@motherofpearl1

Here's quote from that tumblr essay:

Rey calls for Anakin’s lightsaber, and since she just refused to join Kylo, you would think the lightsaber would once again go to her, because she’s acting like a Jedi would. Instead, it seems that Kylo manages to stop it.

Or is it just that the lightsaber doesn’t want to go to neither of them?

Kylo, as we see throughout the movie, is not completely 'dark’ anymore. But Rey isn’t completely 'light’ either. As much as she talks about the Jedi like a crazy fangirl, she actually doesn’t know anything about them, nor she behaves like one. As some fellow shipper pointed out here on Tumblr, she’s the one who fights like a Sith with the Praetorians, while Kylo is the one who fights like a Jedi.

What does this mean? That they both moved to a grey zone.
Could it be why the lightsaber doesn’t react to neither of them? Is the Force sending a message? The lightsaber acts like it can’t reject Kylo anymore, and that’s how he manages to stop it from flying directly into Rey’s hand. Or maybe, the lightsaber can’t neither reject Kylo nor accept Rey, because they both broke out of the old, pre-established roles of Jedi and Sith. There’s no black and white anymore, and the fact that the lightsaber ends up split in half might mean something: balance. Half light, half darkness. Yin and Yang. Ben and Rey.

On the first bolded, I have never compared how they fought the PGs.  I will need to watch it again, but as I think about it right now, she seems to show a lot more "growling rage" than he does.  The whole "shoot first"/"throw a staff at Luke's head"/"primal roar as she goes for the PG" all really indicate that she is not entirely the sweet girl lifting those rocks.  Hmmmm ... this is really interesting this Jedi/Sith fight comparison, especially in the light of the ending where everything seems so cutesy at the end with Poe and the rest on the ship, while supposed "evil" Kylo is on his knees crying.  I think that there may be even deeper subversion than we thought at play here, almost to the point that a lot of things that "look" bad may not be and vise versa.

After TLJ the vast majority of the audience and critics (with definite exceptions like Tom Shone and Reverse Shot, etc.), think Kylo's done, that he's all evil now, that Rey is done with him and the Resistance will be triumphant in Black Diamond ... but that same audience and critic pool (also excepting some, like Reverse Shot) saw not hint of Reylo from TFA, thought Kylo was going to get eviler (when the opposite happened) and Luke was going to light the green to glory (and not over a sleeping teenage boy).

This is the second movie where Rey has had an serious raging side under her pretty face.  This is the second movie where Kylo/Ben is really a sensitive, damaged kid under the yelling and intimidating black outfit.  Adam Driver said that there was a thin line between the two of them and there was light and dark in both.  And I'm of the opinion that AD probably knows more things about the entire trilogy than any of the other actors.

I don't know if the lightsaber was mad at both of them ... or if it didn't know what to do with both of them ... because they were both grey.

Very interesting essay, and I definitely want to concentrate on their fighting style the next go around.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Post by Reynak on Fri 12 Jan 2018, 1:45 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@snufkin wrote:This is excellent analysis, just don't freak out about the last sentence. And only read the comments if you haven't had your daily quota of indignant middle-aged white guys

HOW “STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI” MAKES KYLO REN EVEN MORE INTERESTING

we could deduce that Rey is afraid of relying on herself because it reminds her that she’s all alone, while Kylo is also afraid of relying on himself because he’s not confident enough to go it alone. In both cases, their fears make them team up with destructive people they don’t need. As tremendous as the dark side may be, it also seems to hold you back.

This leaves me very curious about where Kylo is headed next. Unlike Vader after “The Empire Strikes Back,” whose family ties paved a clearer path towards redemption, Kylo doesn’t have much to cling to at the end of “The Last Jedi.” You know he’s still fixated on Rey, but she made her choice, and he’s not interested in turning good. Possibly because he’s seen “good,” and it doesn’t deliver.[/quote]
@snufkin

Which is what I believe....stop and put yourself in this kid’s place for one minute. Sent away by his ’good’ mother to his ’good’ uncle, who tried to kill him. Offered sanctuary by an abusive creep who treated him like dirt. He ends up killing said creep for the only person who showed him any real kindness - who then spectacularly rejects him for an organisation who stole his mother and who he has been made to think are terrorists. Just as drug addicts and alcoholics need a reason as to why they should get clean and sober, then Kylo has to have something to make giving up the dark worth it for. And not the greater good of the galaxy, which has always come before him. Selfish yes, but he has the right to feel selfish, as hes always come last in the greater scheme of things. ’Sorry son, but the Republic must come first’ - mum.  ’Sorry kid, but teaching other kids to fly and swanning round the galaxy must come first’ - dad. ’Sorry nephew, but I must kill you because an evil old predator got into your head from birth and none of us had the guts to kill him for you’ - sainted uncle. And here is a fascinating post on why the sabre might have broken;courtesy of reyloeyesofmist: https://roguewn.tumblr.com/post/168623016927/rey-and-anakins-lightsaber-what-went-wrong-this
@motherofpearl1

When you said eyesofmist’s post, do you mean this one perhaps?
Eyesofmist is my tumblr account, this is what I wrote about the lightsaber. The post above was written by another tumblr user.

  What if the broken lightsaber symbolizes Ben Solo himself? It was lost for years and locked up in a chest in a castle’s cellar (Mazz’s place is like a castle) like Kylo was trapped in Snoke’s lair. The saber was found by Rey but was rejected when she didn’t accept her hero’s quest in TFA, like Rey found Ben but rejected his call, just like like she rejected the lightsaber’s. It eventually became Rey’s despite her initial intention to give it to Luke, who threw it away unceremoniously in TLJ. Rey was sent to Luke carrying the lightsaber in her bag, without using it, and both the saber and Rey were sent to Luke by Leia, like Ben was as a kid.

The lightsaber was the instrument to end Snoke. Like Kylo himself, it was necessary to do away with great evil. Kylo killed the Supreme Leader, a bad guy with no personality or known background, who’s little more than a mere representation of evil, like the snake in the Bible.

The saber was used by Ray on the island after she rescued it, so to speak. It was among the garbage like Ben is, discarded by everyone but Rey, the only one who bothers to salvage it like the scavenger she is and can use it because it calls her, it goes to her (TFA) answering her summons and behaves as if it is hers, though Kylo claims it belongs to him.

This lightsaber is the Skywalker legacy and it’s doomed, nobody wants it but Rey, who rejected it in the beginning despite what Mazz said to her. Kylo himself is the last Skywalker, so he is the Skywalker legacy made flesh ( and what flesh, LOL)

What Rey means to him finally broke him. He was being torn apart and pulled by Dark and Light until in the end he broke apart splitting in two like the lightsaber, torn between being being Ben Solo and his other side, the Kylo Ren persona.

If I am right it’s not bad that Rey has the two parts of the broken lightsaber, because she cares for him although he is broken. Others would throw him away like garbage but not Rey, she is a scavenger after all. Perhaps this is why Leia said her son is lost ( how I hated it when she said that), to show that he is at his lowest point, broken, and only Rey is in the position to make him whole. Nobody else can, only Rey and Ben himself.

I have seen the movie only once, did Kylo keep anything from the lightsaber? I can’t remember.

I was so angry when Leia gave up on him, as a mother I can’t take that, but this is a fairiytale and everything is symbolic in fairytales, so this may mean only the heroine can save Ben Solo through love, like Beauty saved the Beast.

In fairytales heroes are orphans or leave their past behind, perhaps the loss of parents shouldn’t be taken in a literal way. I mean, if this was real I could never root for Ben or understand why his parents gave up on him and didn’t go to rescue him when he was in Snoke’s clutches.

Han and Luke went to rescue Leia in ANH but none of them tried to save Ben when he was trapped. Luke knew how hurt and horrified he must be after what he tried to do to him and didn’t try to help him, the same Luke who saved the Resistance and believed Anakin could be redeemed.

How horrible is this? As horrible, if not more, than what Kylo did, because he was their kid.

But this isn’t a realistic drama but a fairytale where parents are always irrelevant, they can never help. For instance, why didn’t Cinderella’s father or Snowhite’s father protect them? Why were their mothers dead? Because the heroine has to complete her journey by herself and parents never rescue the princess prisoner to a dragon or under an evil spell, only the hero can help the captive princess, only Rey can help Ben. This is how I see it if this is indeed a fairytale.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Post by ZioRen on Fri 12 Jan 2018, 2:12 am

Eh, I don't know about Kylo fighting like a Jedi or Rey a Sith. Kylo socks a dude and throws another one into a space shredder, where he has the most gruesome death of the fight. He also decapitates without hesitation and they make his moments when he punches his saber through guards brutal and literally in the audience's face. Rey's kills seemed a little less brutal overall, but she was still going for it. All she did was scream at a guy to give the impression that she's fighting like a "Sith" any more than Kylo is. I'd say they had a similar energy, though, moreso than one going to one end and the other to the other. They were equals in everything, including intensity, in that moment. There was no shining paragon vs ruthless bad guy. It was two warriors in a knock-down, drag-out fight and they weren't holding back.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 12 Jan 2018, 2:45 am

[quote="SoloSideCousin"]
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@snufkin wrote:This is excellent analysis, just don't freak out about the last sentence. And only read the comments if you haven't had your daily quota of indignant middle-aged white guys

HOW “STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI” MAKES KYLO REN EVEN MORE INTERESTING

we could deduce that Rey is afraid of relying on herself because it reminds her that she’s all alone, while Kylo is also afraid of relying on himself because he’s not confident enough to go it alone. In both cases, their fears make them team up with destructive people they don’t need. As tremendous as the dark side may be, it also seems to hold you back.

This leaves me very curious about where Kylo is headed next. Unlike Vader after “The Empire Strikes Back,” whose family ties paved a clearer path towards redemption, Kylo doesn’t have much to cling to at the end of “The Last Jedi.” You know he’s still fixated on Rey, but she made her choice, and he’s not interested in turning good. Possibly because he’s seen “good,” and it doesn’t deliver.[/quote]
@snufkin

Which is what I believe....stop and put yourself in this kid’s place for one minute. Sent away by his ’good’ mother to his ’good’ uncle, who tried to kill him. Offered sanctuary by an abusive creep who treated him like dirt. He ends up killing said creep for the only person who showed him any real kindness - who then spectacularly rejects him for an organisation who stole his mother and who he has been made to think are terrorists. Just as drug addicts and alcoholics need a reason as to why they should get clean and sober, then Kylo has to have something to make giving up the dark worth it for. And not the greater good of the galaxy, which has always come before him. Selfish yes, but he has the right to feel selfish, as hes always come last in the greater scheme of things. ’Sorry son, but the Republic must come first’ - mum.  ’Sorry kid, but teaching other kids to fly and swanning round the galaxy must come first’ - dad. ’Sorry nephew, but I must kill you because an evil old predator got into your head from birth and none of us had the guts to kill him for you’ - sainted uncle. And here is a fascinating post on why the sabre might have broken;courtesy of reyloeyesofmist: https://roguewn.tumblr.com/post/168623016927/rey-and-anakins-lightsaber-what-went-wrong-this
@motherofpearl1

Here's quote from that tumblr essay:

Rey calls for Anakin’s lightsaber, and since she just refused to join Kylo, you would think the lightsaber would once again go to her, because she’s acting like a Jedi would. Instead, it seems that Kylo manages to stop it.

Or is it just that the lightsaber doesn’t want to go to neither of them?

Kylo, as we see throughout the movie, is not completely 'dark’ anymore. But Rey isn’t completely 'light’ either. As much as she talks about the Jedi like a crazy fangirl, she actually doesn’t know anything about them, nor she behaves like one. As some fellow shipper pointed out here on Tumblr, she’s the one who fights like a Sith with the Praetorians, while Kylo is the one who fights like a Jedi.

What does this mean? That they both moved to a grey zone.
Could it be why the lightsaber doesn’t react to neither of them? Is the Force sending a message? The lightsaber acts like it can’t reject Kylo anymore, and that’s how he manages to stop it from flying directly into Rey’s hand. Or maybe, the lightsaber can’t neither reject Kylo nor accept Rey, because they both broke out of the old, pre-established roles of Jedi and Sith. There’s no black and white anymore, and the fact that the lightsaber ends up split in half might mean something: balance. Half light, half darkness. Yin and Yang. Ben and Rey.

On the first bolded, I have never compared how they fought the PGs.  I will need to watch it again, but as I think about it right now, she seems to show a lot more "growling rage" than he does.  The whole "shoot first"/"throw a staff at Luke's head"/"primal roar as she goes for the PG" all really indicate that she is not entirely the sweet girl lifting those rocks.  Hmmmm ... this is really interesting this Jedi/Sith fight comparison, especially in the light of the ending where everything seems so cutesy at the end with Poe and the rest on the ship, while supposed "evil" Kylo is on his knees crying.  I think that there may be even deeper subversion than we thought at play here, almost to the point that a lot of things that "look" bad may not be and vise versa.

After TLJ the vast majority of the audience and critics (with definite exceptions like Tom Shone and Reverse Shot, etc.), think Kylo's done, that he's all evil now, that Rey is done with him and the Resistance will be triumphant in Black Diamond ... but that same audience and critic pool (also excepting some, like Reverse Shot) saw not hint of Reylo from TFA, thought Kylo was going to get eviler (when the opposite happened) and Luke was going to light the green to glory (and not over a sleeping teenage boy).

This is the second movie where Rey has had an serious raging side under her pretty face.  This is the second movie where Kylo/Ben is really a sensitive, damaged kid under the yelling and intimidating black outfit.  Adam Driver said that there was a thin line between the two of them and there was light and dark in both.  And I'm of the opinion that AD probably knows more things about the entire trilogy than any of the other actors.

I don't know if the lightsaber was mad at both of them ... or if it didn't know what to do with both of them ... because they were both grey.

Very interesting essay, and I definitely want to concentrate on their fighting style the next go around.
@SoloSideCousin

I did notice that Rey charged towards Snoke with Kylo’s sabre in a way that reminded me of Luke attacking Palpatine in RoTJ, which was of course was meant to be wrong - and I wonder if her using Kylo’s sabre was also a nod to that - also, notice that in previous films the ’good guys’ have never used a red sabre,even for a moment.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Post by SoloSideCousin on Fri 12 Jan 2018, 3:36 am

@Reynak wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@snufkin wrote:This is excellent analysis, just don't freak out about the last sentence. And only read the comments if you haven't had your daily quota of indignant middle-aged white guys

HOW “STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI” MAKES KYLO REN EVEN MORE INTERESTING

we could deduce that Rey is afraid of relying on herself because it reminds her that she’s all alone, while Kylo is also afraid of relying on himself because he’s not confident enough to go it alone. In both cases, their fears make them team up with destructive people they don’t need. As tremendous as the dark side may be, it also seems to hold you back.

This leaves me very curious about where Kylo is headed next. Unlike Vader after “The Empire Strikes Back,” whose family ties paved a clearer path towards redemption, Kylo doesn’t have much to cling to at the end of “The Last Jedi.” You know he’s still fixated on Rey, but she made her choice, and he’s not interested in turning good. Possibly because he’s seen “good,” and it doesn’t deliver.[/quote]
@snufkin

Which is what I believe....stop and put yourself in this kid’s place for one minute. Sent away by his ’good’ mother to his ’good’ uncle, who tried to kill him. Offered sanctuary by an abusive creep who treated him like dirt. He ends up killing said creep for the only person who showed him any real kindness - who then spectacularly rejects him for an organisation who stole his mother and who he has been made to think are terrorists. Just as drug addicts and alcoholics need a reason as to why they should get clean and sober, then Kylo has to have something to make giving up the dark worth it for. And not the greater good of the galaxy, which has always come before him. Selfish yes, but he has the right to feel selfish, as hes always come last in the greater scheme of things. ’Sorry son, but the Republic must come first’ - mum.  ’Sorry kid, but teaching other kids to fly and swanning round the galaxy must come first’ - dad. ’Sorry nephew, but I must kill you because an evil old predator got into your head from birth and none of us had the guts to kill him for you’ - sainted uncle. And here is a fascinating post on why the sabre might have broken;courtesy of reyloeyesofmist: https://roguewn.tumblr.com/post/168623016927/rey-and-anakins-lightsaber-what-went-wrong-this
@motherofpearl1

When you said eyesofmist’s post, do you mean this one perhaps?
Eyesofmist is my tumblr account, this is what I wrote about the lightsaber. The post above was written by another tumblr user.

  What if the broken lightsaber symbolizes Ben Solo himself? It was lost for years and locked up in a chest in a castle’s cellar (Mazz’s place is like a castle) like Kylo was trapped in Snoke’s lair. The saber was found by Rey but was rejected when she didn’t accept her hero’s quest in TFA, like Rey found Ben but rejected his call, just like like she rejected the lightsaber’s. It eventually became Rey’s despite her initial intention to give it to Luke, who threw it away unceremoniously in TLJ. Rey was sent to Luke carrying the lightsaber in her bag, without using it, and both the saber and Rey were sent to Luke by Leia, like Ben was as a kid.

The lightsaber was the instrument to end Snoke. Like Kylo himself, it was necessary to do away with great evil. Kylo killed the Supreme Leader, a bad guy with no personality or known background, who’s little more than a mere representation of evil, like the snake in the Bible.

The saber was used by Ray on the island after she rescued it, so to speak. It was among the garbage like Ben is, discarded by everyone but Rey, the only one who bothers to salvage it like the scavenger she is and can use it because it calls her, it goes to her (TFA) answering her summons and behaves as if it is hers, though Kylo claims it belongs to him.

This lightsaber is the Skywalker legacy and it’s doomed, nobody wants it but Rey, who rejected it in the beginning despite what Mazz said to her. Kylo himself is the last Skywalker, so he is the Skywalker legacy made flesh ( and what flesh, LOL)

What Rey means to him finally broke him. He was being torn apart and pulled by Dark and Light until in the end he broke apart splitting in two like the lightsaber, torn between being being Ben Solo and his other side, the Kylo Ren persona.

If I am right it’s not bad that Rey has the two parts of the broken lightsaber, because she cares for him although he is broken. Others would throw him away like garbage but not Rey, she is a scavenger after all. Perhaps this is why Leia said her son is lost ( how I hated it when she said that), to show that he is at his lowest point, broken, and only Rey is in the position to make him whole. Nobody else can, only Rey and Ben himself.

I have seen the movie only once, did Kylo keep anything from the lightsaber? I can’t remember.

I was so angry when Leia gave up on him, as a mother I can’t take that, but this is a fairiytale and everything is symbolic in fairytales, so this may mean only the heroine can save Ben Solo through love, like Beauty saved the Beast.

In fairytales heroes are orphans or leave their past behind, perhaps the loss of parents shouldn’t be taken in a literal way. I mean, if this was real I could never root for Ben or understand why his parents gave up on him and didn’t go to rescue him when he was in Snoke’s clutches.

Han and Luke went to rescue Leia in ANH but none of them tried to save Ben when he was trapped. Luke knew how hurt and horrified he must be after what he tried to do to him and didn’t try to help him, the same Luke who saved the Resistance and believed Anakin could be redeemed.

How horrible is this? As horrible, if not more, than what Kylo did, because he was their kid.

But this isn’t a realistic drama but a fairytale where parents are always irrelevant, they can never help. For instance, why didn’t Cinderella’s father or Snowhite’s father protect them? Why were their mothers dead? Because the heroine has to complete her journey by herself and parents never rescue the princess prisoner to a dragon or under an evil spell, only the hero can help the captive princess, only Rey can help Ben. This is how I see it if this is indeed a fairytale.
@Reynak

@Reynak that is an incredible analysis. I never thought about the lightsaber that way, but OMG, the lightsaber *is* Ben!!!

Seriously, this needs to be posted in the meta thread!
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Post by Reynak on Fri 12 Jan 2018, 7:07 am

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Reynak wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@snufkin wrote:This is excellent analysis, just don't freak out about the last sentence. And only read the comments if you haven't had your daily quota of indignant middle-aged white guys

HOW “STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI” MAKES KYLO REN EVEN MORE INTERESTING

we could deduce that Rey is afraid of relying on herself because it reminds her that she’s all alone, while Kylo is also afraid of relying on himself because he’s not confident enough to go it alone. In both cases, their fears make them team up with destructive people they don’t need. As tremendous as the dark side may be, it also seems to hold you back.

This leaves me very curious about where Kylo is headed next. Unlike Vader after “The Empire Strikes Back,” whose family ties paved a clearer path towards redemption, Kylo doesn’t have much to cling to at the end of “The Last Jedi.” You know he’s still fixated on Rey, but she made her choice, and he’s not interested in turning good. Possibly because he’s seen “good,” and it doesn’t deliver.[/quote]
@snufkin

Which is what I believe....stop and put yourself in this kid’s place for one minute. Sent away by his ’good’ mother to his ’good’ uncle, who tried to kill him. Offered sanctuary by an abusive creep who treated him like dirt. He ends up killing said creep for the only person who showed him any real kindness - who then spectacularly rejects him for an organisation who stole his mother and who he has been made to think are terrorists. Just as drug addicts and alcoholics need a reason as to why they should get clean and sober, then Kylo has to have something to make giving up the dark worth it for. And not the greater good of the galaxy, which has always come before him. Selfish yes, but he has the right to feel selfish, as hes always come last in the greater scheme of things. ’Sorry son, but the Republic must come first’ - mum.  ’Sorry kid, but teaching other kids to fly and swanning round the galaxy must come first’ - dad. ’Sorry nephew, but I must kill you because an evil old predator got into your head from birth and none of us had the guts to kill him for you’ - sainted uncle. And here is a fascinating post on why the sabre might have broken;courtesy of reyloeyesofmist: https://roguewn.tumblr.com/post/168623016927/rey-and-anakins-lightsaber-what-went-wrong-this
@motherofpearl1

When you said eyesofmist’s post, do you mean this one perhaps?
Eyesofmist is my tumblr account, this is what I wrote about the lightsaber. The post above was written by another tumblr user.

  What if the broken lightsaber symbolizes Ben Solo himself? It was lost for years and locked up in a chest in a castle’s cellar (Mazz’s place is like a castle) like Kylo was trapped in Snoke’s lair. The saber was found by Rey but was rejected when she didn’t accept her hero’s quest in TFA, like Rey found Ben but rejected his call, just like like she rejected the lightsaber’s. It eventually became Rey’s despite her initial intention to give it to Luke, who threw it away unceremoniously in TLJ. Rey was sent to Luke carrying the lightsaber in her bag, without using it, and both the saber and Rey were sent to Luke by Leia, like Ben was as a kid.

The lightsaber was the instrument to end Snoke. Like Kylo himself, it was necessary to do away with great evil. Kylo killed the Supreme Leader, a bad guy with no personality or known background, who’s little more than a mere representation of evil, like the snake in the Bible.

The saber was used by Ray on the island after she rescued it, so to speak. It was among the garbage like Ben is, discarded by everyone but Rey, the only one who bothers to salvage it like the scavenger she is and can use it because it calls her, it goes to her (TFA) answering her summons and behaves as if it is hers, though Kylo claims it belongs to him.

This lightsaber is the Skywalker legacy and it’s doomed, nobody wants it but Rey, who rejected it in the beginning despite what Mazz said to her. Kylo himself is the last Skywalker, so he is the Skywalker legacy made flesh ( and what flesh, LOL)

What Rey means to him finally broke him. He was being torn apart and pulled by Dark and Light until in the end he broke apart splitting in two like the lightsaber, torn between being being Ben Solo and his other side, the Kylo Ren persona.

If I am right it’s not bad that Rey has the two parts of the broken lightsaber, because she cares for him although he is broken. Others would throw him away like garbage but not Rey, she is a scavenger after all. Perhaps this is why Leia said her son is lost ( how I hated it when she said that), to show that he is at his lowest point, broken, and only Rey is in the position to make him whole. Nobody else can, only Rey and Ben himself.

I have seen the movie only once, did Kylo keep anything from the lightsaber? I can’t remember.

I was so angry when Leia gave up on him, as a mother I can’t take that, but this is a fairiytale and everything is symbolic in fairytales, so this may mean only the heroine can save Ben Solo through love, like Beauty saved the Beast.

In fairytales heroes are orphans or leave their past behind, perhaps the loss of parents shouldn’t be taken in a literal way. I mean, if this was real I could never root for Ben or understand why his parents gave up on him and didn’t go to rescue him when he was in Snoke’s clutches.

Han and Luke went to rescue Leia in ANH but none of them tried to save Ben when he was trapped. Luke knew how hurt and horrified he must be after what he tried to do to him and didn’t try to help him, the same Luke who saved the Resistance and believed Anakin could be redeemed.

How horrible is this? As horrible, if not more, than what Kylo did, because he was their kid.

But this isn’t a realistic drama but a fairytale where parents are always irrelevant, they can never help. For instance, why didn’t Cinderella’s father or Snowhite’s father protect them? Why were their mothers dead? Because the heroine has to complete her journey by herself and parents never rescue the princess prisoner to a dragon or under an evil spell, only the hero can help the captive princess, only Rey can help Ben. This is how I see it if this is indeed a fairytale.
@Reynak

@Reynak that is an incredible analysis. I never thought about the lightsaber that way, but OMG, the lightsaber *is* Ben!!!

Seriously, this needs to be posted in the meta thread!
@SoloSideCousin

There's something quite interesting that I found after writing that post. There's a naughty side to it, it's fun.
I've been reading a bit of Freud because of the references in the movie, and according to Freud,regarding the interpretation of dreams and symbology, guns like swords, daggers or knives represent mahood, they can bee seen as phallic symbols. This isn't new, I'm sure you have heard it before. The lightsaber is quite a phallic symbol, and Ben says the legacy one belongs to him.

But this is not the only thing Freud said. Have a look at this:

The female genital is symbolically represented by all those objects which share its peculiarity of enclosing a space capable of being filled by something—viz., by pits, caves, and hollows, by pitchers and bottles, by boxes and trunks  

I have trunks in bold because that's where Rey found the legacy lightsaber, in a trunk.  Cool

And where was that trunk with the lightsaber inside? In a cellar, and Rey had to descend a flight of stairs to find it.
According to Freud, stairs may stand for sexual intercourse. That descent of hers was like falling down (to the underworld? only that?) and she rejected the lightsaber, she didn't take it. No wonder she rejected it if there was a Freudian meaning attached to it,LOL. She literally fell down after the dreamlike scene she saw, the one were a masked stranger looked at her, Kylo.

That cellar was similar to a cave, and caves are associated to the female.
Also, houses and ships represente the female, rather the female womb than a woman's genitalia (according to Freud again), and Luke found Ben and Rey inside a hut, touching each other's hands, but she had accepted him in her place, so to speak, her house. This is not only sensual but also maternal. Don't you think it hints at future babies?

An open door to a a house (or a ship, because ships may also represent the female, a mother's womb in dreams, according to Freud again) is access to the feminine or the maternal.

When they hold hands Rey invites Ben to her hut/house, the door is open for him. Did she invite him to have sex with her, in a symbolical way? He did accept. He was so nervous when he took his glove off, as if he was baring his whole body to her. She had that blanket draped over her shoulders and she was wearing a white sleeveless tanktop. From a distance, didn't it seem she was in a state of undress? Why?

When they touched, his fingers were shaking. We could think that was because it was incredible to touch someone who was so far away, but there was more to it, they were both trembling. Also, when he took off his glove it felt incredibly erotic,and it was just a glove, or was it? When he finally reaches to her, it's the man who goes forward, moves forward, her hand is waiting for his, she gasps, audibly when she feels skin to skin contact.

And then Lukes interrupted them in a very violent way, because what he saw was important, what we could see on the surface and also the subtext. I think that felt very much like a sacred marriage, because it happened in a sacred place, where the old jedi temple used to be. This scene was like love between "husband" and "wife" (a symbolical married couple, meaning transcendental, metaphysical, something huge), a couple deeply in love.

The scene where she is in the rain and insults him is different, that's about temptation, desire, need, it's a previous step in a relationship. The hut scene is already love, compromise, the promise of children.

Rey called Kylo murderous snake in their incredibly hot second space Skype meeting. What does the snake represents for the female?

 To the less comprehensible male sex-symbols belong certain reptiles and fish, notably the famous symbol of the snake. Why hats and cloaks should have been turned to the same use is certainly difficult to discover, but their symbolic meaning leaves no room for doubt.

Don’t forget that you can hear a snake rattle in TFA, during the notorious interrogation scene. And in TLJ Rey calls Kylo murderous snake, of all things. She also calls him a monster and he approaches her looking like temptation made flesh and with a silky voice the proverbial snake would have been proud of in the Garden of Eden while tempting the female to take a bite off the forbidden fruit, and gain knowledge, if she dares.

Adam and Eve discovered sex after that, they became aware that they were naked. Maybe that’s becoming an adult, you discover sex but also many others things you ignored as a child. Then you’ll be expelled from Paradise. Ben Solo was thirsty for knowledge as a kid, even if it came from the Dark Side. Luke was the kind of man who didn’t even read the old books of knowledge in Ahch-To. Luke was a man of faith but Kylo had doubts and curiosity, the type who seeks answers and whose faith is challenged.

When Rey tries the forbidden fruit as she gets to know Kylo she awakens both sexually and intelectually. She gets to know the truth about young Solo and what his uncle did to him, that her wait for her parents was useless and they didn’t want her, that Luke is now perfect but just huma, etc. She takes the books with her on the Falcon because she does want to know. She can’t look away from knowledge even if it may cause pain.

Adam and Even were expelled from the Paradise of childhood ignorance and innocence and so did Ben and Rey, they have to start their own journey as adults leaving the past behind. But Ben is still prisoner of his past, he needs to let go, because hatred is paralizing and it doesn’t let him become the man he’s meant to be.

And that cloak Kylo wears in this movie, it's so extra. I seems to be there only to make him look cool, and manly perhaps?

There still another thing, nature represents the female but cliffs represent the male. Remember Rey at the edge of a cliff after (was it after or before) meeting that sexy monster she was obviously attracted to despite herself? Also, falling over the edge represents release, orgasm. She looked down that cliff and didn't fall, but seemed on the verge, so to speak.

 We have already spoken of natural scenery as a representation of the female genitals. Mountains and cliffs are symbols of the male organ;

And there's still another thing. They saw each other during that second space Skype call and she was in a natural place (female) and he was looking at machinery.

The complicated topography of the female genitals accounts for the fact that they are often represented as scenes with cliffs, woods and water, while the imposing mechanism of the male sex apparatus leads to the use of all manner of very complicated machinery, difficult to describe.
 

Accoding to this the cliff may represent both male and female genitals, and complicated machine male genitals. Pfffff. I think Rian read Freud, very well, LOL. He admitted he'd used Jungarian images and Pablo joked about Freudian references in TLJ. I don't know if Rian himself said something about Freudian imagery in the movie.

This can't be a coincidence, it's deliberate, I think. Sometimes writers and directors use symbology that is ingrained in the collective imaginary, without giving it much thought, instincitively in some cases. but in TLJ it's more than that, Rian used those symbols, chose them with care and with a purpose. That was important for him, it carries a message for those who care to see it.


Last edited by Reynak on Fri 12 Jan 2018, 11:49 am; edited 3 times in total
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Post by Let The Past Die on Fri 12 Jan 2018, 7:11 am

@DeeBee wrote:
@Let The Past Die wrote:
@thescavenger wrote:
@Let The Past Die wrote:Just thought I would start a thread on those little observations we might have or questions regarding TLJ, that don't seem to fit elsewhere.

For example an observation I had was when Rey was brought into the throne room before Snoke, and during one of his speeches, he talks about the dark, and I think he raises his right hand, then he says about the light rising, and he raises his left hand, as if he were balancing scales, then he clasps his hand together as he says something along the lines of light coming to meet (it) the dark.

Now does anyone know the exact phrasing, and did he actually clasp and join his hands together? I'm not sure whether I'm making the hands together up, or is my memory playing tricks.

Because if Snoke did, then I'm calling it that Snoke foreshadowed Rey and Ben joining together.... Lol Laughing
Of course, I could just have remembered it wrong Embarassed
@Let The Past Die

I remembered this scene. For once, I thought Snoke might have had a peek into their connection, and was making fun of how they hold hands.

Sorry, also, a lot of emphasis on hands this movie. It's like Rian has a thing for hands. Outside of Reylo's hand emphasis, also Luke pressing Rey's hands onto the meditating rock platform, Poe squeezing Leia's hand while she's in a coma, Holdo and Leia's hand holding goodbyes, Rey in the cave mirror doing hand gestures, Luke's robot hand coming out for the Temple rubble. I know these are all very common, but it seems like the camera really lingers on hands more than usual. Also goes back to Mark Hamill's tweet about 'it's all about the hands'.
@thescavenger

Hurrah, I remembered it right Thumbs up

Yes, there seemed to be emphasis on hands. Funnily enough I watched Rian Johnson's The brothers Bloom today, and hands stood out to me in that film too.

Going back to Snoke, I kind of think it's ironic he joins his two hands together the light and the dark, or Rey and Kylo joining together, the one thing he didn't want, he foreshadowed his own comeuppance....lol And hopefully a foreshadowing of them being together in IX Oh the irony Lolilol
@Let The Past Die

Love it!!!! That's some full on hubris right there from Snoke- ha!!!
[more and more I see hubris as a key theme in TLJ!]
@DeeBee

Oh yes, hubris indeed! Haha
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Post by Let The Past Die on Fri 12 Jan 2018, 7:24 am

Another observation I need clarifying, this is at the end when Kylo bends to pick the dice up. He is kneeling, his head jerks up as he becomes aware of Rey. He looks at her, then camera to Rey, then back to Kylo. Now this is my question, does he slightly lean forward as if to give the impression he might just ask a question? Then the camera pans to Rey, she then closes the door.

I've watched so many YouTube videos that have this scene, but either they mash it up more times than there was in the actual scene from what I remember, or they slow the film down. So I'm not getting a true picture of that scene, and it's becoming murky in my head because of the music vids distorting it.

I'm just curious of the slight leaning towards her, and if anyone else picked up on it.

On a side note to that scene, ones had mentioned he had tears, I'd never seen it, not at the cinema, not on the music vids, although they were poor quality, then one recent music bid, I spotted it, a trail of a tear coming down from his left eye down the side of his nose to his mouth, it's faint, but I definitely saw it. Packs even more emotion for me to that scene now.
So any thoughts on this leaning forward?
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Post by Starliteprism on Fri 12 Jan 2018, 7:50 am

Just came back from my 5th viewing...

One curious thing I noticed is when Leia is moving gracefully through space, back into the ship, I believe there is a hologram of Snoke's ship? that is still lit up and she crosses RIGHT THROUGH IT, kinda like how Holdo slices through it later on, so maybe some foreshadowing as well...
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 12 Jan 2018, 8:12 am

@Reynak wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@snufkin wrote:This is excellent analysis, just don't freak out about the last sentence. And only read the comments if you haven't had your daily quota of indignant middle-aged white guys

HOW “STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI” MAKES KYLO REN EVEN MORE INTERESTING

we could deduce that Rey is afraid of relying on herself because it reminds her that she’s all alone, while Kylo is also afraid of relying on himself because he’s not confident enough to go it alone. In both cases, their fears make them team up with destructive people they don’t need. As tremendous as the dark side may be, it also seems to hold you back.

This leaves me very curious about where Kylo is headed next. Unlike Vader after “The Empire Strikes Back,” whose family ties paved a clearer path towards redemption, Kylo doesn’t have much to cling to at the end of “The Last Jedi.” You know he’s still fixated on Rey, but she made her choice, and he’s not interested in turning good. Possibly because he’s seen “good,” and it doesn’t deliver.[/quote]
@snufkin

Which is what I believe....stop and put yourself in this kid’s place for one minute. Sent away by his ’good’ mother to his ’good’ uncle, who tried to kill him. Offered sanctuary by an abusive creep who treated him like dirt. He ends up killing said creep for the only person who showed him any real kindness - who then spectacularly rejects him for an organisation who stole his mother and who he has been made to think are terrorists. Just as drug addicts and alcoholics need a reason as to why they should get clean and sober, then Kylo has to have something to make giving up the dark worth it for. And not the greater good of the galaxy, which has always come before him. Selfish yes, but he has the right to feel selfish, as hes always come last in the greater scheme of things. ’Sorry son, but the Republic must come first’ - mum.  ’Sorry kid, but teaching other kids to fly and swanning round the galaxy must come first’ - dad. ’Sorry nephew, but I must kill you because an evil old predator got into your head from birth and none of us had the guts to kill him for you’ - sainted uncle. And here is a fascinating post on why the sabre might have broken;courtesy of reyloeyesofmist: https://roguewn.tumblr.com/post/168623016927/rey-and-anakins-lightsaber-what-went-wrong-this
@motherofpearl1

When you said eyesofmist’s post, do you mean this one perhaps?
Eyesofmist is my tumblr account, this is what I wrote about the lightsaber. The post above was written by another tumblr user.

  What if the broken lightsaber symbolizes Ben Solo himself? It was lost for years and locked up in a chest in a castle’s cellar (Mazz’s place is like a castle) like Kylo was trapped in Snoke’s lair. The saber was found by Rey but was rejected when she didn’t accept her hero’s quest in TFA, like Rey found Ben but rejected his call, just like like she rejected the lightsaber’s. It eventually became Rey’s despite her initial intention to give it to Luke, who threw it away unceremoniously in TLJ. Rey was sent to Luke carrying the lightsaber in her bag, without using it, and both the saber and Rey were sent to Luke by Leia, like Ben was as a kid.

The lightsaber was the instrument to end Snoke. Like Kylo himself, it was necessary to do away with great evil. Kylo killed the Supreme Leader, a bad guy with no personality or known background, who’s little more than a mere representation of evil, like the snake in the Bible.

The saber was used by Ray on the island after she rescued it, so to speak. It was among the garbage like Ben is, discarded by everyone but Rey, the only one who bothers to salvage it like the scavenger she is and can use it because it calls her, it goes to her (TFA) answering her summons and behaves as if it is hers, though Kylo claims it belongs to him.

This lightsaber is the Skywalker legacy and it’s doomed, nobody wants it but Rey, who rejected it in the beginning despite what Mazz said to her. Kylo himself is the last Skywalker, so he is the Skywalker legacy made flesh ( and what flesh, LOL)

What Rey means to him finally broke him. He was being torn apart and pulled by Dark and Light until in the end he broke apart splitting in two like the lightsaber, torn between being being Ben Solo and his other side, the Kylo Ren persona.

If I am right it’s not bad that Rey has the two parts of the broken lightsaber, because she cares for him although he is broken. Others would throw him away like garbage but not Rey, she is a scavenger after all. Perhaps this is why Leia said her son is lost ( how I hated it when she said that), to show that he is at his lowest point, broken, and only Rey is in the position to make him whole. Nobody else can, only Rey and Ben himself.

I have seen the movie only once, did Kylo keep anything from the lightsaber? I can’t remember.

I was so angry when Leia gave up on him, as a mother I can’t take that, but this is a fairiytale and everything is symbolic in fairytales, so this may mean only the heroine can save Ben Solo through love, like Beauty saved the Beast.

In fairytales heroes are orphans or leave their past behind, perhaps the loss of parents shouldn’t be taken in a literal way. I mean, if this was real I could never root for Ben or understand why his parents gave up on him and didn’t go to rescue him when he was in Snoke’s clutches.

Han and Luke went to rescue Leia in ANH but none of them tried to save Ben when he was trapped. Luke knew how hurt and horrified he must be after what he tried to do to him and didn’t try to help him, the same Luke who saved the Resistance and believed Anakin could be redeemed.

How horrible is this? As horrible, if not more, than what Kylo did, because he was their kid.

But this isn’t a realistic drama but a fairytale where parents are always irrelevant, they can never help. For instance, why didn’t Cinderella’s father or Snowhite’s father protect them? Why were their mothers dead? Because the heroine has to complete her journey by herself and parents never rescue the princess prisoner to a dragon or under an evil spell, only the hero can help the captive princess, only Rey can help Ben. This is how I see it if this is indeed a fairytale.
@Reynak

I found the post on your account; which is why I credited you both; and yes, I have read your essay, and frankly both of you sum up exactly how I feel about Kylo and that Rey has to be accountable, at least in part, for creating Supreme Leader. I also want very much for Rey to save him....but also for her to realise she has her own faults, and has to accept them before she tries to change Kylo. Great blog, by the way - nice to know I’m not the only Sandor/Sansa shipper... Smile
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Post by Let The Past Die on Fri 12 Jan 2018, 8:44 am

@Starliteprism wrote:Just came back from my 5th viewing...

One curious thing I noticed is when Leia is moving gracefully through space, back into the ship, I believe there is a hologram of Snoke's ship? that is still lit up and she crosses RIGHT THROUGH IT, kinda like how Holdo slices through it later on, so maybe some foreshadowing as well...
@Starliteprism
Good catch, I remember her floating through the hologram ship, the image shudders slightly if I remember.

If we look hard enough we can find foreshadowing every where Laughing
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Post by Starliteprism on Fri 12 Jan 2018, 8:47 am

@Let The Past Die wrote:
@Starliteprism wrote:Just came back from my 5th viewing...

One curious thing I noticed is when Leia is moving gracefully through space, back into the ship, I believe there is a hologram of Snoke's ship? that is still lit up and she crosses RIGHT THROUGH IT, kinda like how Holdo slices through it later on, so maybe some foreshadowing as well...
@Starliteprism
Good catch, I remember her floating through the hologram ship, the image shudders slightly if I remember.

If we look hard enough we can find foreshadowing every where Laughing
@Let The Past Die

Most definitely. I mean, when Rey slices through that rock with the lightsaber and then it slipped off the cliff and affected the caretakers, to me that foreshadowed Snoke, and the repercussions of that as well.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Post by SheLitAFire on Fri 12 Jan 2018, 9:29 am

@SoloSideCousin
@Reynak that is an incredible analysis. I never thought about the lightsaber that way, but OMG, the lightsaber *is* Ben!!!

Seriously, this needs to be posted in the meta thread

It is Smile

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