The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

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The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by bashfulblueeyes3 on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 8:18 pm

I haven't really seen this topic as a discussion except here and there, so if I am repeating sorry. I was just thinking how much I am looking forward to Rey's emotional journey in TLJ.  We didn't really get to see a lot of what she was thinking or feeling during TFA, except during the interrogation scene with Kylo.  I can guess Rey is not really a sharer.  I know she will face her abandonment issues from Luke wanting her to go away.  I think is going to give  Rey's character so more depth.


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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 10:14 pm

The trailer gave us a lot to look forward to for Rey, way more than I think some were anticipating. The big reveal for me was the existence of a shared raw power between Rey and Kylo, but there were other things that have the potential to spice up Rey's character as well. That was just the most important one for me because it introduces the idea that Luke will not only be reluctant to train Rey, he'll be scared of her capacity for growth in the Force out of concern of repeating past mistakes. Add to that MSW's whispers about Rey using the Force to pull pillars when she's just trying to pull a lightsaber, cracking the earth beneath her when she's trying to meditate and possibly destroying a building during a conversation and we have the beginnings of a volatile and confused heroine who ends up being scared of herself.

Rey is going to Luke with the expressed goal of accompanying him back to the Resistance, but she'll also ask him for help in exploring her powers. She sees him as an elder and a mentor in the Force, but her hopes are going to be brutally dashed when he lets on exactly what she doesn't want to hear, that she reminds him of Kylo. That's a low blow for Rey. Imagine being likened to someone you called a monster for murdering their father right in front of her, only to be told probably a week later "Sorry, can't train you, you're too much like him." Yikes. Rey will be overwhelmingly disappointed in Luke, and probably pretty angry at him. She might spend a little time in #Denialville and try to train herself.

I think it's safe to say she'll have visions of what happened at Luke's temple (and probably of Kylo in general) that will prompt her to see things a little differently. Depending on what the Force shows her, she might not fully align with Luke's perspective on what Kylo did, and as a result she'll develop further doubts in his mentorship. I do think he'll end up training her anyway in order to prepare her to face Kylo, providing a potential slot for MSW's rumours about Luke wanting Rey to kill Kylo but Rey feeling reluctant to go through with it as a result of what she's learned about Ben while on the island.

IMO, Rey's big arc in this film is going to revolve around making a final decision to do something nobody else would do in taking Kylo's hand the second time it's offered. Her dynamic with Luke will fuel her insecurities, though I do believe he'll redeem himself in her eyes before the film's conclusion. When she ultimately decides to accept Kylo's help she'll most likely have the underlying sentiment of using him for whatever knowledge he could provide her about the Force, her powers and possibly even her past by searching through her repressed memories via their connection. I feel this would be an appropriate twist because the current perception aligns more with Kylo manipulating Rey's feelings rather than the other way around.


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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by PalmettoBlue on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 10:17 pm

I agree. Some of the cries of “Mary Sue,” I think revolve around her equanimity, even when she is completely within her rights to lose her mind. You see it in the origin book, you see it in TFA, and I think we’ll finally get a better feel for her emotional struggle in TLJ.

And, wearing my shipper glasses, I honestly think her best foil is Kylo, not Luke.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by PalmettoBlue on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 10:31 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:The trailer gave us a lot to look forward to for Rey, way more than I think some were anticipating. The big reveal for me was the existence of a shared raw power between Rey and Kylo, but there were other things that have the potential to spice up Rey's character as well. That was just the most important one for me because it introduces the idea that Luke will not only be reluctant to train Rey, he'll be scared of her capacity for growth in the Force out of concern of repeating past mistakes. Add to that MSW's whispers about Rey using the Force to pull pillars when she's just trying to pull a lightsaber, cracking the earth beneath her when she's trying to meditate and possibly destroying a building during a conversation and we have the beginnings of a volatile and confused heroine who ends up being scared of herself.

Rey is going to Luke with the expressed goal of accompanying him back to the Resistance, but she'll also ask him for help in exploring her powers. She sees him as an elder and a mentor in the Force, but her hopes are going to be brutally dashed when he lets on exactly what she doesn't want to hear, that she reminds him of Kylo. That's a low blow for Rey. Imagine being likened to someone you called a monster for murdering their father right in front of her, only to be told probably a week later "Sorry, can't train you, you're too much like him." Yikes. Rey will be overwhelmingly disappointed in Luke, and probably pretty angry at him. She might spend a little time in #Denialville.

I think it's safe to say she'll have visions of what happened at Luke's temple (and probably of Kylo in general) that will prompt her to see things a little differently. Depending on what the Force shows her, she might not fully align with Luke's perspective on what Kylo did, and as a result she'll develop further doubts in his mentorship. I do think he'll end up training her anyway in order to prepare her to face Kylo, providing a potential slot for MSW's rumours about Luke wanting Rey to kill Kylo but Rey feeling reluctant to go through with it as a result of what she's learned about Ben while on the island.

IMO, Rey's big arc in this film is going to revolve around making a final decision to do something nobody else would do in taking Kylo's hand the second time it's offered. Her dynamic with Luke will fuel her insecurities, though I do believe he'll redeem himself in her eyes before the film's conclusion. When she ultimately decides to accept Kylo's help she'll most likely have the underlying sentiment of using him for whatever knowledge he could provide her about the Force, her powers and possibly even her past by searching through her repressed memories via their connection. I feel this would be an appropriate twist because the current perception aligns more with Kylo manipulating Rey's feelings rather than the other way around.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I agree, Fizz. But, again with the shipper glasses, I hope Rey and Kylo attain a level of shared emotion, not manipulating the other. I admit, with no shame, that I want Ben Solo back, redeemed. And I’d worry that if he feels used or manipulated, then we’d see a damaging regression of that arc. I’ve thought for some time that his honesty with her is a key plot point, and more importantly, him being able to trust what he gets from her is a fulcrum for his character. After all, he now knows that he cannot trust anyone (except Rey) because they’ve all lied to him and or used him.

Rey, on the other hand, also needs to find that family, that belonging that she seeks. And I think he will be the one person with whom she can be completely herself. Clearly, she controls whatever anger or frustration she has with Finn in TFA and completely forgives him. Her sheer power terrifies the man who she thinks might be best positioned to help her and the Resistance. Who does she have left? Don’t say Chewie. He likes her, but his best friend will always be Han Solo. The one person she will completely reveal her anger, heartbreak, and frustration to is clearly Kylo/Ben. And he will understand.

The raw power plot point - it’s pretty genius, isn’t it?
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 10:37 pm

@PalmettoBlue wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:The trailer gave us a lot to look forward to for Rey, way more than I think some were anticipating. The big reveal for me was the existence of a shared raw power between Rey and Kylo, but there were other things that have the potential to spice up Rey's character as well. That was just the most important one for me because it introduces the idea that Luke will not only be reluctant to train Rey, he'll be scared of her capacity for growth in the Force out of concern of repeating past mistakes. Add to that MSW's whispers about Rey using the Force to pull pillars when she's just trying to pull a lightsaber, cracking the earth beneath her when she's trying to meditate and possibly destroying a building during a conversation and we have the beginnings of a volatile and confused heroine who ends up being scared of herself.

Rey is going to Luke with the expressed goal of accompanying him back to the Resistance, but she'll also ask him for help in exploring her powers. She sees him as an elder and a mentor in the Force, but her hopes are going to be brutally dashed when he lets on exactly what she doesn't want to hear, that she reminds him of Kylo. That's a low blow for Rey. Imagine being likened to someone you called a monster for murdering their father right in front of her, only to be told probably a week later "Sorry, can't train you, you're too much like him." Yikes. Rey will be overwhelmingly disappointed in Luke, and probably pretty angry at him. She might spend a little time in #Denialville.

I think it's safe to say she'll have visions of what happened at Luke's temple (and probably of Kylo in general) that will prompt her to see things a little differently. Depending on what the Force shows her, she might not fully align with Luke's perspective on what Kylo did, and as a result she'll develop further doubts in his mentorship. I do think he'll end up training her anyway in order to prepare her to face Kylo, providing a potential slot for MSW's rumours about Luke wanting Rey to kill Kylo but Rey feeling reluctant to go through with it as a result of what she's learned about Ben while on the island.

IMO, Rey's big arc in this film is going to revolve around making a final decision to do something nobody else would do in taking Kylo's hand the second time it's offered. Her dynamic with Luke will fuel her insecurities, though I do believe he'll redeem himself in her eyes before the film's conclusion. When she ultimately decides to accept Kylo's help she'll most likely have the underlying sentiment of using him for whatever knowledge he could provide her about the Force, her powers and possibly even her past by searching through her repressed memories via their connection. I feel this would be an appropriate twist because the current perception aligns more with Kylo manipulating Rey's feelings rather than the other way around.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I agree, Fizz. But, again with the shipper glasses, I hope Rey and Kylo attain a level of shared emotion, not manipulating the other. I admit, with no shame, that I want Ben Solo back, redeemed. And I’d worry that if he feels used or manipulated, then we’d see a damaging regression of that arc. I’ve thought for some time that his honesty with her is a key plot point, and more importantly, him being able to trust what he gets from her is a fulcrum for his character. After all, he now knows that he cannot trust anyone (except Rey) because they’ve all lied to him and or used him.

Rey, on the other hand, also needs to find that family, that belonging that she seeks. And I think he will be the one person with whom she can be completely herself. Clearly, she controls whatever anger or frustration she has with Finn in TFA and completely forgives him. Her sheer power terrifies the man who she thinks might be best positioned to help her and the Resistance. Who does she have left? Don’t say Chewie. He likes her, but his best friend will always be Han Solo. The one person she will completely reveal her anger, heartbreak, and frustration to is clearly Kylo/Ben. And he will understand.

The raw power plot point - it’s pretty genius, isn’t it?
@PalmettoBlue
I'm sorry, I don't mean to say that Rey will literally manipulate him in the sense that Palpatine manipulated Anakin. I don't think that's going to happen. I absolutely feel that they will be aware of an emotional and Force-related connection present in their relationship that will spur Rey to ultimately make that choice, but this is only Act II of a III act story and we can't have it end with every emotional plot-point tied up neatly with a bow. I would be surprised if Rey was 110% trusting of Kylo at the end of TLJ, whether she takes his hand or not (and imo, she will take it), but there will probably still be serious doubts between them. Kylo has a lot to make up for, more than he ever could in the span of one film, and Rey feeling that she is in control while simultaneously going against her better judgment and developing a confusing affection for him could easily be a plot-point well into IX. Plus, it makes for an extension of an already interesting story and could help the audience further relate to Rey's decision.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by PalmettoBlue on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 10:49 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@PalmettoBlue wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:The trailer gave us a lot to look forward to for Rey, way more than I think some were anticipating. The big reveal for me was the existence of a shared raw power between Rey and Kylo, but there were other things that have the potential to spice up Rey's character as well. That was just the most important one for me because it introduces the idea that Luke will not only be reluctant to train Rey, he'll be scared of her capacity for growth in the Force out of concern of repeating past mistakes. Add to that MSW's whispers about Rey using the Force to pull pillars when she's just trying to pull a lightsaber, cracking the earth beneath her when she's trying to meditate and possibly destroying a building during a conversation and we have the beginnings of a volatile and confused heroine who ends up being scared of herself.

Rey is going to Luke with the expressed goal of accompanying him back to the Resistance, but she'll also ask him for help in exploring her powers. She sees him as an elder and a mentor in the Force, but her hopes are going to be brutally dashed when he lets on exactly what she doesn't want to hear, that she reminds him of Kylo. That's a low blow for Rey. Imagine being likened to someone you called a monster for murdering their father right in front of her, only to be told probably a week later "Sorry, can't train you, you're too much like him." Yikes. Rey will be overwhelmingly disappointed in Luke, and probably pretty angry at him. She might spend a little time in #Denialville.

I think it's safe to say she'll have visions of what happened at Luke's temple (and probably of Kylo in general) that will prompt her to see things a little differently. Depending on what the Force shows her, she might not fully align with Luke's perspective on what Kylo did, and as a result she'll develop further doubts in his mentorship. I do think he'll end up training her anyway in order to prepare her to face Kylo, providing a potential slot for MSW's rumours about Luke wanting Rey to kill Kylo but Rey feeling reluctant to go through with it as a result of what she's learned about Ben while on the island.

IMO, Rey's big arc in this film is going to revolve around making a final decision to do something nobody else would do in taking Kylo's hand the second time it's offered. Her dynamic with Luke will fuel her insecurities, though I do believe he'll redeem himself in her eyes before the film's conclusion. When she ultimately decides to accept Kylo's help she'll most likely have the underlying sentiment of using him for whatever knowledge he could provide her about the Force, her powers and possibly even her past by searching through her repressed memories via their connection. I feel this would be an appropriate twist because the current perception aligns more with Kylo manipulating Rey's feelings rather than the other way around.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I agree, Fizz. But, again with the shipper glasses, I hope Rey and Kylo attain a level of shared emotion, not manipulating the other. I admit, with no shame, that I want Ben Solo back, redeemed. And I’d worry that if he feels used or manipulated, then we’d see a damaging regression of that arc. I’ve thought for some time that his honesty with her is a key plot point, and more importantly, him being able to trust what he gets from her is a fulcrum for his character. After all, he now knows that he cannot trust anyone (except Rey) because they’ve all lied to him and or used him.

Rey, on the other hand, also needs to find that family, that belonging that she seeks. And I think he will be the one person with whom she can be completely herself. Clearly, she controls whatever anger or frustration she has with Finn in TFA and completely forgives him. Her sheer power terrifies the man who she thinks might be best positioned to help her and the Resistance. Who does she have left? Don’t say Chewie. He likes her, but his best friend will always be Han Solo. The one person she will completely reveal her anger, heartbreak, and frustration to is clearly Kylo/Ben. And he will understand.

The raw power plot point - it’s pretty genius, isn’t it?
@PalmettoBlue
I'm sorry, I don't mean to say that Rey will literally manipulate him in the sense that Palpatine manipulated Anakin. I don't think that's going to happen. I absolutely feel that they will be aware of an emotional and Force-related connection present in their relationship that will spur Rey to ultimately make that choice, but this is only Act II of a III act story and we can't have it end with every emotional plot-point tied up neatly with a bow. I would be surprised if Rey was 110% trusting of Kylo at the end of TLJ, whether she takes his hand or not (and imo, she will take it), but there will probably still be serious doubts between them. Kylo has a lot to make up for, more than he could do in the span of one film, and Rey feeling that she is in control while simultaneously going against her better judgment and feeling a strange affection for him could easily be a plot-point well into IX. Plus, it makes for an extension of an already interesting story and could help the audience further relate to Rey's decision.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Oh, of course! I was actually thinking of the long game...to the end of 9, but I didn’t articulate that.
I agree that she will take his hand, even if it’s not face to face, even if it’s via a Force vision. I guess this relationship will be fraught, but I think they will find a rapprochement because they will be able to understand each other in ways others will never be able to fathom.

The other thing that I try to remember when I think about this saga is that it’s a fairy tale. And that generally means a happy ending, so I’m going with that. I’m really hoping for a happy ending.

If 9 ends like R1, y’all will find me in a corner, crying softly and rocking, inconsolable. Then I’ll turn to fanfic to fix what the filmmakers got wrong. lol!
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The Heroine's Journey

Post by LadyHa on Mon 27 Nov 2017, 11:55 am

@snufkin wrote this in the Lineage thread, but it's really interesting and I thought could use a separate discussion post
@snufkin wrote:On the topic of lineage, this site just started following me on social media and I just read this article, which is about The Heroine's Journey, a topic that's been discussed here and which I know @nonesuch and @BastilaBey have discussed on their podcast. Now while it's most definitely not just a gender-flipped version of the Hero's Journey (and Campbell supposedly has some bullshit quote statement about how it wasn't as important to women, others have researched/written extensively about it. Especially around recent movies like Wonder Woman. What I thought was interesting reading this one publication's take on that movie and the archetypes it hits on is how much it's not Rey's story. Which is where we get into the lineage question. Because the filmmakers could have so easily made something where she was Rey Skywalker or Rey Solo and her struggles/adventures coming into her own. It sounds like that's the original idea GL envisioned when he planned the last trio of movies, that it'd be about a young woman who'd be part of that family (maybe a daughter or his original idea for Luke's twin sister which got conflated with Leia when he wanted to wrap up the OT and move on w/his life). Like we've said here, there is no secret family connection for Rey because they could have done that with her and they chose not to. What is interesting is looking at some of the points hit on for Wonder Woman, it starts to sound a little close to one of the other characters in the ST, Leia's son. Not saying that they intentionally set up a male character who's the antagonist and villain to have the Heroine's Journey, but it's an interesting possibility to think over with what they've hinted at with his character. Possibly one of the ways they've played with traditional gender roles for these characters, including allowing him to be vulnerable and open and how some of the fan hate is for violating certain gender expectations

Why Screenwriters Should Embrace The Heroine’s Journey

What most people overlook is that Campbell’s monomyth best emphasizes characteristics and values found strictly in male characters. In fact, in Campbell’s framework for The Hero’s Journey, he details only two roles for women. The first — “The Meeting with the Goddess” — references the woman as the love interest or as some sort of maternal divinity role. The second —  “Woman as Temptress” — references the woman as a character that temps the hero, usually in lusty fashion.

Separation from the Feminine  — Often a mother or prescribed feminine role. Diana (Wonder Woman), the princess, wishes to become a warrior. However, her mother, the Queen, initially forbids her to.
Identification with the Masculine and Gathering of Allies — Often entails choosing a path that is different than the role prescribed for her, deciding to gear to”fight” an organization, role, or group that is limiting or entering some male/masculine-defined sphere. Diana finds a World War I pilot after he crash lands near her island. This is the first time she has seen a man and she quickly gathers an ally in him after she learns that a great war is raging, killing millions of innocents.
Road or Trials and Meeting the Ogres and Dragons — Heroine encounters trials and meets people who try to dissuade her from pursuing her chosen path and/or destroy her (ogres and dragons or their metaphorical counterparts). Diana ventures on the strange “road” through the civilized world of mankind. She wishes to go to the front of the war, but man after man opposes her doing so.
Experiencing the Boon of Success — The Heroine overcomes obstacles. In The Hero’s Journey, this is normally where the hero’s tale ends.  Diana proves herself in battle, showcasing her skills and powers that are above and beyond any man present.
Heroine Awakens to Feelings of Spiritual Aridity/Death — Success in this new way of life is either temporary, illusory, shallow, or requires a betrayal of self over time. Diana can not understand the reluctance on mankind’s part to saving the innocent and ending the war. Steve, the World War I pilot and her ally, is focused on completing the mission at hand of getting the secret gas plans to his superiors. Diana wants to stop the mythical Ares from waging war.
Initiation and Descent to the Goddess  —  The heroine faces a crisis of some sort in which the new way is insufficient and falls into despair. All of her “masculine” strategies have failed her. Despite her efforts and powers, many are killed by deadly German gases. Diana is heart broken.
Heroine Urgently Yearns to Reconnect with the Feminine — The heroine cannot go back to her initial limited state or position. Diana kills Ludendorff, but the war does not stop. She loses faith in the goodness of man and is perhaps ready to give up and fall back to her Amazon women beliefs that she was brought up with.
Heroine Heals the Mother/Daughter Split —  The heroine reclaims some of her initial values, skills or attributes but views them from a new perspective. Diana reclaims her vision as Ares reveals himself finally. Her true powers are then unleashed, showcasing what her mother always knew.
Heroine Heals the Wounded Masculine Within —  Heroine makes peace with the “masculine” approach to the world as it applies to herself. Diana says goodbye to Steve and realizes that while mankind is flawed, it is worth fighting for.
Heroine Integrates the Masculine and Feminine — She faces the world or future with a new understanding of herself and the world/life. Heroine sees through binaries and can interact with a complex world that includes her but is larger than her personal lifetime or geographical/cultural milieu. Diana accepts her role. She will fight for justice and for mankind. This leads to the time leading up to and through the events of Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice and beyond.
@snufkin


Here's some thoughts I have on this:

  • WTH, Joseph Campbell?  Women are only sirens or prizes?
  • Chicken or the egg: If so many films follow this pattern, was Campbell right that his Hero's Journey is common to the psyches of all humanity or did his writings influence how female characters have been written?
  • If it doesn't work to just flip genders for a story and that a heroine's journey is different partially due to social discrimination, wouldn't the Hero's Journey be problematic for disadvantaged characters too?
  • If Rey was a man and Kylo was a woman, how would the audience view the Kylo-ette character?  More sympathetically?  As a clear temptress?  Perhaps the unmasking scene would include the removal of a cape, showing that she had an attractive body and the audience would have no problem understanding that she was supposed to be sexy?
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by LadyHa on Mon 27 Nov 2017, 12:04 pm

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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by snufkin on Mon 27 Nov 2017, 5:07 pm

@LadyHa - thanks for posting! Hopefully we'll have more to discuss after seeing the movie. I do think it's interesting how there's likely not going to be a 'Healing the Mother/Daughter Split' for Rey (wasn't one for Jyn either) given LF's bad track record with mothers. Which is why Leia was the most obvious candidate for that moment, albeit as a mother.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by Maria Antonietta on Mon 27 Nov 2017, 5:12 pm

I should buy a book to study the heroine's journey. I think they're using it for Rey, it is clear that Rey's path is different from Luke's or Anakin's. I'm going to read Von Franz's "Animus and anima in fairy tales" soon.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by LadyHa on Mon 27 Nov 2017, 5:19 pm

@Maria Antonietta wrote:I should buy a book to study the heroine's journey. I think they're using it for Rey, it is clear that Rey's path is different from Luke's or Anakin's. I'm going to read Von Franz's "Animus and anima in fairy tales" soon.
@Maria Antonietta

I'm thinking of getting The Heroine's Journey by Maureen Murdock, although many reviewers say it feels very outdated.  Which makes me think that these frameworks don't need to be static and can be updated for different times and situations.  (I believe that Campbell was insistent that his model was universal and fixed.)
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by snufkin on Mon 27 Nov 2017, 6:26 pm

Yeah the Campbell quote is pretty bogus, also why I tend to think for a lot of SW fans, they just assume that Rey will go through the same process w/out her gender at all being under consideration. And by gender, not in the "look how they undermined Leia in the last movie by emphasizing her girliness" as pandering to fanboys/the male gaze. But as in not even taking into the quote from JJ and Kasdan that part of what they wanted to have as part of Rey's character arc was having her start at the absolute bottom of all the social classes/groups in that fictional universe as part of the distances she has to cross in coming of age and into her own power. Including being a woman in a franchise that's a Boy's Club.

Also it hasn't come up here much yet, but how many of you have seen Ladybird yet? I thought some of the Heroine's Journey and relationship/resolution with the mother as part of finding ones own self and way in the world was one of its central themes.

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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by SheLitAFire on Mon 27 Nov 2017, 8:26 pm

So, this isn't necessarily the Heroine's Journey like posted above, but I'm currently reading Women who Run with the Wolves: Myths and Stories of the Wild Woman Archetype by Clarissa Pinkola Estes; she's a Jungian psychologist who incorporates feminist theories and gender studies into this book as she analyzes fictional literature from around the world on female leaders, motherhood, sexuality, the psyche & dreams, perceptions of virtue & purity, intuition, religion & mythology, rage, sorrow, forgiveness, isolation, female creativity, wandering identities, and coming of age stories.
This part reminds me of the newer images that have come out of Rey in the Throne Room, even though we don't know the context.
Estes discusses "Rage as a Teacher"..."all emotion, even rage, carries knowledge, insight, what some call enlightenment. Our rage can, for a time,
become our teacher, a thing not to be rid of so fast, but rather to climb a mountain for, to personify, to learn from, deal with internally, then shape into something useful in the world as a result...allowing oneself to be taught by one's rage, therefore transforming it, disperses it. One's energy returns to use in other areas...
She then goes on to talk about a story from the Mideast, popular within Sufi and Buddhist circles, called The Withered Trees, about how learning when to act in rage is the key, to be mindful about her rage, rather than just trying to strive for "gentle sainthood."
Another quote I like is from Estes' discussion of the story "The Handless Maiden" that reminds me of Rey
The maiden represents the heartfelt and formerly sleepy psyche. But a warrior-heroine lies beneath...she has the endurance of the lone wolf. She is able to bear the dirt, grime, betrayal, hurt, loneliness, and exile.
The "sleepy psyche or psychic slumber" refers to "the voluptuous, the inquiring, the good and incendiary sides of our natures are not fully sentient" ("something inside of me has awakened"). Rey was in that "psychic slumber" stage until she touched the light saber and that was her awakening.

I can't quite remember but didn't Rian at one point talk about using Jungian analysis as he wrote? I know Daisy Ridley has said she's into Carl Jung. I'm looking forward to interpreting TLJ through the lens of what I've read and learned in this book. Anyway, I'm still reading it (I've only read a few chapters & it has 15 chapters, so if I find anything else that's applicable I'll share. It's an interesting book, I'm really enjoying it.

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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by Maria Antonietta on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 2:29 am

@SheLitAFire I love that book!
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Rey's Journey so far...

Post by DeeBee on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 7:03 pm

Hi Everyone,

I'm going to share some thoughts on Rey - So much Kylo talk and Rey/Kylo talk going on.. I find Rey to be a more challenging character to understand.. so anyone interested in sharing their thoughts on Rey's character?

I'll copy here a slightly edited version of what I just shared in a general (predictions) thread to get the ball rolling here..
...I'm still processing Rey's arc in TLJ. It seems to me that her unbridled optimism/magical thinking tendencies were her failure and confronting this was her arc in TLJ.
Rey's magically stubborn in clinging to her parents coming back... in Luke being the one who will just return and take down the FO with a lightsaber (as Luke says in the early stages of their introduction).. in confronting snoke,in believing her force vision.. and in believing Ben Solo can be redeemed.
For me, I see her as having confronted the realities - that things are not going to be so simple.. and she is going to need to persist on and fight..
I don't think this means she has given up hope - but her hope is now tempered with realism.
No wonder she took to the force like a duck to water - her force abilities in themselves were like a magical ability for her that she thought could solve everything.
Rey learned some tough lessons.. Very Happy

I don't see Rey's role moving forward as rebuilding the resistance - she may assist them, but her main role is to rebuild and reform the jedi order according to TLJ no? I'd say a scavenger is the perfect person to do it Wink but.. it's left vague what that will look like.. IMHO of course.
The resistance and the jedi ares not one and the same thing..
i think it is also implied her role is to bring balance - but how exactly that plays out I think remains to be revealed in IX.


What do you think was Rey's story? her failures? her lessons she learned? I've shared my current ideas.. but I may change them yet Wink
What did you make of the mirror scene?!

What about Rey's story stood out for you?
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by IoJovi on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 7:18 pm

@DeeBee wrote:Hi Everyone,

I'm going to share some thoughts on Rey - So much Kylo talk and Rey/Kylo talk going on.. I find Rey to be a more challenging character to understand.. so anyone interested in sharing their thoughts on Rey's character?

I'll copy here a slightly edited version of what I just shared in a general (predictions) thread to get the ball rolling here..
...I'm still processing Rey's arc in TLJ. It seems to me that her unbridled optimism/magical thinking tendencies were her failure and confronting this was her arc in TLJ.
Rey's magically stubborn in clinging to her parents coming back... in Luke being the one who will just return and take down the FO with a lightsaber (as Luke says in the early stages of their introduction).. in confronting snoke,in believing her force vision.. and in believing Ben Solo can be redeemed.
For me, I see her as having confronted the realities - that things are not going to be so simple.. and she is going to need to persist on and fight..
I don't think this means she has given up hope - but her hope is now tempered with realism.
No wonder she took to the force like a duck to water - her force abilities in themselves were like a magical ability for her that she thought could solve everything.
Rey learned some tough lessons.. Very Happy

I don't see Rey's role moving forward as rebuilding the resistance - she may assist them, but her main role is to rebuild and reform the jedi order according to TLJ no? I'd say a scavenger is the perfect person to do it Wink but.. it's left vague what that will look like.. IMHO of course.
The resistance and the jedi ares not one and the same thing..
i think it is also implied her role is to bring balance - but how exactly that plays out I think remains to be revealed in IX.


What do you think was Rey's story? her failures? her lessons she learned? I've shared my current ideas.. but I may change them yet Wink
What did you make of the mirror scene?!

What about Rey's story stood out for you?
@DeeBee

I don’t think Rey’s unbridaled optomism is accidental. I think it’s a lesson of what can happen to someone when they lean too far one way. Had she not run into BB8 followed by Finn, she’d probably have wasted her life span on Jakku, waiting for her family. It’s the opposite and contrast of Ben, who wants to let the past die completely and move forward. Neither mindset is right, and both are extreme. I’m confident IX will have them working through what separates them (with help from each other), and thus achieving balance.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by DeeBee on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 7:20 pm

@IoJovi

I agree - it makes perfect sense when all put together Smile
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by rey09 on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 7:26 pm

I loved Rey in TFA. I was hoping for more growth though and more understanding of her in TLJ. Instead her role mostly served as Ben's would be savior. 

Parentage- wanted this to bring some dark side out of her, but nothing. It was such a passing thought. Perhaps we'll see her really grapple in 9. 

Why is she so powerful? - Even Luke was like who are you? There seems to be more to Rey and we still have no idea. Like she had the vision of the island etc. Does everyone get that? It doesn't seem so...she is special, but why and how? 

Resistance- she has barely stayed with the resistance and she's acting like she's this big person in the movement. I understand the FO are super bad and she wants to fight the injustice but it doesn't seem to make that much sense.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by PalmettoBlue on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 7:49 pm

Rey and her depth of power have never bothered me. I guess it might have something to do with being a Harry Potter fan: one of the strongest witches is Hermione Granger and she’s a Muggle-born.
I think of the Force the same way. It bubbles up where it wants to and the strength it wants to. A friend of mine and I have a head canon that Han Solo is mildly Force sensitive because he’s too lucky, too good at piloting. Stay with me, now. He’s not strong enough to consciously manipulate the Force, but he’s got a just a touch of sensitivity. To use a mundane example: he’s a twin engine Cessna, Rey and Kylo are F-35 fighter jets. They can so some insane Sith...including physically touch one another while across the galaxy.
And I think the more Kylo embraces the duality of his nature and the more Rey learns, the stronger that Force bond will be.
I think Rey will read those pilfered books and start to really learn something. And I don’t think that bond will stay closed for long. But perhaps she will learn to have better control of it.
However it goes: I’m confident that her journey is tied up with Ben/Kylo. And one more thing: she’ll have to learn to accept the duality of him as well. But I don’t think that will be as difficult as it may seem. She hasn’t been endoctrinated into the Jedi code, and I think she’s seen enough of the good to know he’s not evil.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by DeeBee on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 7:55 pm

@rey09 wrote:I loved Rey in TFA. I was hoping for more growth though and more understanding of her in TLJ. Instead her role mostly served as Ben's would be savior. 

Parentage- wanted this to bring some dark side out of her, but nothing. It was such a passing thought. Perhaps we'll see her really grapple in 9. 

Why is she so powerful? - Even Luke was like who are you? There seems to be more to Rey and we still have no idea. Like she had the vision of the island etc. Does everyone get that? It doesn't seem so...she is special, but why and how? 

Resistance- she has barely stayed with the resistance and she's acting like she's this big person in the movement. I understand the FO are super bad and she wants to fight the injustice but it doesn't seem to make that much sense.
@rey09

Hiya rey09. Maybe if we dig into her character, we can come up with some answers together? Smile
Or.. we can have fun trying!

Parentage: yeah the way this was addressed in the movie was curious.
I've always preferred she is Rey random.. but I'm totally open to finding out in IX that her parents or grandparents were dark siders.
It seems the message of TLJ is lineage isn't everything - so it wound undo this if she turned out to be descended from someone of significance. maybe?

Why is she so powerful? I do think this was addressed in TLJ. I just shared this snoke quote in another thread:
this is when Snoke first meets Rey- "So much strength.. Darkness rises… and Light to meet it. I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger, his equal in the light would rise. Skywalker?! Haa haaaa…. I assumed! Wrongly."
Rey is so powerful it seems, because Kylo has become so powerful.

The question I have that has not been answered is: Why Rey?
The old SW answer is - because of lineage.. but in TLJ this seems to be not be the answer for Rey.
I figure - the force chose Rey. but why I don't know.. and I don't know if we will ever find out. I hope we do.. something interesting to speculate about.

Resistance- I know what you mean! I've found this a little confusing - Rey and the resistance.
Because it is not a case of her starting the movie fully committed to the resistance - though she has a connection with Finn who is there and probably Leia. Didn't Daisy say something about Rey not being firmly committed to their cause at the end of TFA?

At the end of the TLJ I think she is significant to the resistance because she is a powerful force user, and she is a great hope.
And, i think throughout TLJ the significance of the resistance to Rey becomes solidified. Even though she is not with them physically..
Because her cause and their cause are common...
At the end, when she returns to them and rescues them all (with Chewie- three cheers for Chewie) - her bond with them as a group has been fully formed I think..
At the moment I see Rey and the Resistance more as a partnership - rather than Rey being incorporated into the resistance entity. Does that make sense?

rey09 you wrote: 'she has barely stayed with the resistance and she's acting like she's this big person in the movement.'
No obligation or anything.. but I'm curious if you could expand more on this thought?
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by DeeBee on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 8:24 pm

Hi all.. I'm going to copy here the current http://www.starwars.com/databank/rey (as of 21 December, 2017) - as it's possible it could get updated in future.. not sure how new TLJ content is at the end.. but could be new..

"Rey grew up on Jakku, eking out a life as a scavenger and hoping that one day whoever had left her on the barren desert world would return. She learned how to survive, becoming a gifted mechanic, pilot and warrior. But she seemed destined to live out her days on a forlorn backwater world, ignorant of the larger galaxy and its perils and possibilities.

Rey’s life changed when she encountered BB-8, a Resistance astromech carrying a star chart offering a clue to the location of the long-lost Jedi master Luke Skywalker. Rey and the renegade stormtrooper Finn forged an unlikely friendship, escaping Jakku and finding themselves caught in a galactic war – with both of their destinies shaped by the awakened power of the Force.

On Takodana, Skywalker’s lightsaber called to Rey, who experienced a Force vision. She rejected this call to destiny, but was captured by the dark side warrior Kylo Ren, with whom she shared a strange connection. Kylo took Rey to Starkiller Base, where he tried to understand her rapidly growing powers. With Finn in peril, she escaped and took up Skywalker’s lightsaber – and the quest to find the Jedi master.

[TLJ]:
Rey found Luke on the lost world Ahch-To, but the meeting wasn’t what she had hoped. Luke had exiled himself and refused to teach Rey, insisting that it was time for the Jedi Order to end. Rey stubbornly refused to leave, and eventually Luke agreed to teach her three lessons that would convince her he had made the right decision.

Under Luke’s tutelage, Rey learned to feel the Force around her and understand her connection to it. But as her powers grew, her connection with Kylo strengthened as well – and Rey became certain that their fates were somehow intertwined."

thoughts anyone? Smile


Last edited by DeeBee on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 8:25 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added hyperlink)
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by Saracene on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 9:12 pm

Rey's character arc in TLJ is once again frustrating, because once again her emotions and motivations are left completely opaque near the end of the film just like in TFA.

TLJ did a pretty great job bringing Rey to her lowest point in the throne room, serving her with a double whammy: she finally confronts the painful truth about her family, and her attempt to bring Ben back fails spectacularly. All good stuff ripe for drama. But then she's dropped from the story and we're left to guess how she decided to cope with all of that, there's no connective tissue between the throne room and her cheerful re-appearance at Crait, and she doesn't talk to anyone about what just happened.

It would be like, in ESB, Luke disappeared from the movie after his encounter with Vader, and then somehow got reunited with Han and Leia going, woohoo what's up you guys?
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by rey09 on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 9:17 pm

@DeeBee wrote:
@rey09 wrote:I loved Rey in TFA. I was hoping for more growth though and more understanding of her in TLJ. Instead her role mostly served as Ben's would be savior. 

Parentage- wanted this to bring some dark side out of her, but nothing. It was such a passing thought. Perhaps we'll see her really grapple in 9. 

Why is she so powerful? - Even Luke was like who are you? There seems to be more to Rey and we still have no idea. Like she had the vision of the island etc. Does everyone get that? It doesn't seem so...she is special, but why and how? 

Resistance- she has barely stayed with the resistance and she's acting like she's this big person in the movement. I understand the FO are super bad and she wants to fight the injustice but it doesn't seem to make that much sense.
@rey09

The question I have that has not been answered is: Why Rey?
I figure - the force chose Rey. but why I don't know.. and I don't know if we will ever find out. I hope we do.. something interesting to speculate about.

rey09 you wrote: 'she has barely stayed with the resistance and she's acting like she's this big person in the movement.'
No obligation or anything.. but I'm curious if you could expand more on this thought?
@DeeBee I was glad her parents were nobodies, like very happy. And the part I bolded- that's the big million dollar question lol. I love origins stories and it bugs me we don't have one yet of hers lol. 

When it comes to the resistance, she's barely had time with them. In TFA, she tries to run back to Jakku. She's only with the resistance for that little time at the end. Idk I get her motivation but it seemed like she's been with them forever but she hasn't been. She's had more time and emotional connection with Kylo lol.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by DeeBee on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 9:18 pm

Found this quote from RJ regarding Rey's journey... thought I'd share it.

“The idea is this island has incredible light and the first Jedi temple up top, and then it has an incredible darkness that’s balanced down underneath in the cave,” the filmmaker said. “In this search for identity, which is her whole thing, she finds all these various versions of ‘Who am I’ going off into infinity, all the possibilities of her. She comes to the end, looking for identity from somebody, looking for an answer, and it’s just her."
and a further quotes from RJ, same source:
“I was thinking, what’s the most powerful answer to that question? Powerful meaning: what’s the hardest thing that Rey could hear? That’s what you’re after with challenging your characters,” Johnson said.

“I think back to the ‘I am your father’ moment with Vader and Luke, and the reason I think that lands is not because it’s a surprise or a twist but because it’s the hardest thing Luke and thus the audience could hear at that moment,” he added. “It turns someone into a bad guy that you just hate and want to kill into suddenly, Oh my God, this is a part of our protagonist. We have to start thinking of this person in more complex terms. We need to start thinking in terms of a redemption arc.”

“In our movie, it’s kind of the opposite,” Johnsons said. “The easiest thing for Rey and the audience to hear is, Oh yeah, you’re so-and-so’s daughter. That would be wish fulfillment and instantly hand her a place in this story on a silver platter.”

“The hardest thing for her is to hear she’s not going to get that easy answer. Not only that, but Kylo is going to use the fact that you don’t get that answer to try and weaken you so you have to lean on him,” Johnson says. “You’re going to have to find the strength to stand on your own two feet and define yourself in this story.”

http://ew.com/movies/2017/12/16/the-last-jedi-spoiler-rey-parents/2/

So - Rey is searching for identity...

Really interesting - I hadn't thought about why she saw so many Reys in the cave like that rather than just her.
Although we learn Rey's powers rise to match Kylo's - It's great Rey seems to receive the message she is not reliant on Kylo for her identity - she is her own person.. and I think this is one reason why she can accept his offer. her getting lost in him would be a terrible future and relationship!
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by rey09 on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 9:22 pm

@Saracene wrote:Rey's character arc in TLJ is once again frustrating, because once again her emotions and motivations are left completely opaque near the end of the film just like in TFA.

TLJ did a pretty great job bringing Rey to her lowest point in the throne room, serving her with a double whammy: she finally confronts the painful truth about her family, and her attempt to bring Ben back fails spectacularly. All good stuff ripe for drama. But then she's dropped from the story and we're left to guess how she decided to cope with all of that, there's no connective tissue between the throne room and her cheerful re-appearance at Crait, and she doesn't talk to anyone about what just happened.

It would be like, in ESB, Luke disappeared from the movie after his encounter with Vader, and then somehow got reunited with Han and Leia going, woohoo what's up you guys?
@Saracene thank you, you hit it so well. Huge disconnect between what she just went through and how she acts afterward. I'm so annoyed by her convo with Leia about the resistance. Like who the f*** cares?? Talk about ben please?? I mean I guess they are just leaving that for suspense reasons but just some kind of comment would be nice. ugh

edit: Like After rejection, kylo goes on this crazy thirst for vengeance on crait. Meanwhile rey is la la la. Like he's so distraught and she's just going on her merry way. it hurts
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