The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by BB-Rey on Fri 12 Jan 2018 - 18:50

@DeeBee

My pleasure! Thank you for creating a thread to discuss her! Smile

It sure is! It's a great way of helping us grow in seeing someone whose been through similar hardships and challenges as you have and is growing at the same time. I only wish I could use the Force and have a lightsaber!

Definitely! It annoys me beyond words when people call her a Mary Sue and all of the other nonsense they spill out about her. Especially when you don't hear anything of the contrary to Anakin or Luke! Ugh. Thankfully I don't find that here and have learned to ignore it the best I can.

Definitely there too! Those are three things I hope I can say that I relate to her with experiencing too! The only difference is she's mechanical. I'm not even close. Haha Smile
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by Saracene on Fri 12 Jan 2018 - 19:06

As much as I'm pleased with the parentage reveal, I wonder if it would have come off stronger if, at any point, there was an indication of Rey actually wishing or thinking that her parents were someone special, which in turn made her special. Then her admission that her parents were nobodies would be truly crushing. Kinda feels like a lost opportunity.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by SkyStar on Sat 13 Jan 2018 - 12:33

@BB-Rey wrote:What I've noticed most about Rey is how similar and alike we both are. She's come into my life at the perfect time. As during the time of The Force Awakens I really was super optimistic and beyond hopeful for many things in my personal life. Even really waiting on something that would never come but, I still hoped it might. As the past couple of years have went by I found a shift more towards being more like Rey within The Last Jedi. Our optimism while still there has been challenged. I think I learned through The Last Jedi what I had already known and that's not to channel too much of your energies on one sensation or you end up doing more damage to yourself than good. Like Rey I am moving forward and making strives towards a brighter future with still being optimistic but also being able to see things more practically. So, when people want to say Rey's character has no depth or meaning I get very upset as she's so relatable in every single way. I don't know what I'd do without her. Smile
@BB-Rey

You know I used to think I relate more to Kylo, but I am kind of moving to a better place in my life and more and more I understand how similar we are with Rey. Both of them are dear for me, but the way I approach life is really Rey's optimism - sometimes I even get angry because I always hope for the best and then if it doesn't turn out I am like ok, I am angry, but fine lets move to something else. I also get too much excited when meeting new peope. Very Happy
Also I adore Rey's rarr scream in battle with Praetorian Guards. She definetly has that war godess vibe!

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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by BB-Rey on Sat 13 Jan 2018 - 14:07

@SkyStar

Same! I'm like this too! They're both dear to me too. They're both such great characters. Smile

Same!! I can't wait to watch that scene over and over again in the coming months. I hope we see more scenee like it in Episode IX!!
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by DeeBee on Sun 14 Jan 2018 - 0:01

@rawpowah wrote:I thought I'd share this interesting take on Rey's journey here. The author makes a lot of good points I didn't catch on at first viewing

http://getoffthesoapbox.tumblr.com/post/169394411772/swtlj-first-impressions-reys-trajectory
@rawpowah

Thanks for sharing this rawpowah - a really interesting, indepth concentration on Rey's character!
I feel I need to read it again and think on it.
What are your thoughts about it? Anyone else read it?

My first impression is that this writer emphasises Rey's attraction to Kylo as being a central motivator right from the get go.
I would not go that far...
I think her interest in him grows throughout - and she had other weighty issues on her mind starting out other than a forbidden attraction to Kylo that she has no idea what to do with..
I'm pretty sure I read an article where DR said Rey had not been thinking about Kylo at all to start with..

Most interesting to me right now is that question in this article about why Rey doesn't tell Luke about the force bond.
What does everyone think?

I have a few thoughts.. but I'm going to sit on this a while.. and just ponder.. Smile
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by Night Huntress on Sun 14 Jan 2018 - 1:27

@DeeBee wrote:
Most interesting to me right now is that question in this article about why Rey doesn't tell Luke about the force bond.
What does everyone think?


I have a few thoughts.. but I'm going to sit on this a while.. and just ponder.. Smile
@DeeBee

I wondered about that myself. We discussed that in another threat- I think it was the one about Luke in VIII?  scratch

Her not telling Luke is a huge thing in my opinion. I mean neither of them are telling their mentors.
I get why Kylo isn't telling Snoke- but why would Rey keep that secret from Luke?
She is even lying to him after the first FB session that she was cleaning her blaster and it went off...

Maybe because Luke already is so reluctant to teach her and she was afraid of his reaction? But why would he be mad at her about something that is beyond her control? And wouldn't that even help gain Luke's trust if she tells him?  Nope

I think it's for personal reasons- I think the author of the text doesn't mean she is literally attracted and interested in Kylo as a boyfriend from the beginning, and that's her motivation. But she did seek belonging and a family and her subconscious are feeling that there is something between them that is pulling her to him . She is totally inexperienced in that matter and has know idea how to deal with it.

most psychologists agree that hostility is really just sublimated sexual attraction.   Laughing  Laughing  Laughing

So, yeah- I got the "hiding the secret boyfriend your parents won't agree about" feeling, too
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by Saracene on Sun 14 Jan 2018 - 5:02

I don't know if I agree with the premise of the article that Rey's interest in Kylo is her main motivator from the start. But I do agree that, next to Rey's connection with Kylo, the rest of the things that supposedly motivate her are kinda weak and/or obscured. It's true that her connection with the Resistance is pretty flimsy and Luke even blatantly calls her out on it at the start of the film. Her force/Jedi journey is also kinda wishy-washy; she needs to be told by someone else how she fits into the bigger picture instead of deciding things for herself, she gets lessons from Luke on why there should not be any more Jedi but we've no clue as to what exactly she absorbed from them and what's her interest in the Jedi books about. Her lifting the rocks in the end is played as a significant moment, but apart from the external significance - that Luke is not the last Jedi - it doesn't really feel like any sort of culminating/breakthrough internal moment for Rey herself.

I kinda feel like the writers are struggling with Rey; her need for family and connection is obvious and relatable, but it's like there's also an understanding that these things alone can't motivate a strong female character in an action-adventure film about galaxy-sized stakes. So they try to fill in her story with the more heroic Resistance/force stuff, but it doesn't quite work IMO.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by rawpowah on Sun 14 Jan 2018 - 7:08

@DeeBee

There are some things about Rey's motivations that I agree with. For starters, they're certainly weaker than Luke's were at the beginning of ESB. Luke had already fought for the Rebellion and had a position there, so his motivation to train can be attributed to his desire to help the rebels and his friends who are fighting on that side.

Meanwhile, with Rey, the first questions I asked myself were: Why is she the one sent by the Resistance to go find Luke? She had only been with them for a couple of hours. Why would Leia trust a stranger to bring back her brother over someone like Poe, for example? After all, he's been in the Resistance for a long time and nobody can question his loyalties. Leia trusted Poe "the best pilot of the Resistance" to locate the map to Luke, but he is not the one sent to actually bring the guy back. Why not have Leia herself go to bring back Luke? Nobody can convince him better than she can. Heck, even sending Chewie by himself or with 3PO makes more sense than sending Rey.

The only reason Rey would be sent is if she volunteered. But why would she volunteer to help a group of strangers? The Resistance didn't come to rescue her. They were more concerned about destroying Starkiller Base and would probably have blown it up with Rey inside. They don't know her and she doesn't know them. In TFA, Han is more preoccupied with Ben than with Rey, and Leia is more preoccupied with getting Finn to tell the Resistance all the FO intel he has.

But Rey would volunteer because of her encounters with Kylo Ren and what those encounters awakened inside of her. These would be imo, the answers she is seeking. There's something that passes between them in the interrogation scene when they peer into each other's minds (as confirmed by Kasdan and the Lucasfilm storygroup), and the same awakening passes between them when Anakin's saber goes into her hands and the Force theme plays, as well as when she's over the cliff "finding the force" with Kylo and defeats him. Combine this with the visions she had when she touched the saber, as well as Maz's advice that her belonging is ahead. and I think you have some motivation (however flimsy that might be). Rey believes her belonging and purpose is to find Luke so that he can help her understand what she just saw when she touched the saber and why it is calling to her and to understand what just happened between her and Kylo.

I agree that she doesn't view Kylo as a potential boyfriend from the beginning. I think she zooms in on him as a boyfriend/baby daddy/whatever when they touch hands and have those visions of each other. I think that's when she gets her answers because she wants to find belonging and understand her awakening in the force. We don't know how she feels about being a jedi or her interests in the field at all, which seems to support the argument in that tumblr post that Rey's main priority was (and is) Kylo and their shared future. She can want to start a jedi order (a new order hehe) for some reason or another, but I think she would want to do that with him.

As to why she doesn't tell Luke about the first manifestation of the force bond: It's something I've been puzzling over, and the only answer that came to me is that she is attracted to Kylo (or he awakens something inside her through the force) and Rey knows this is not something socially acceptable because he is from the dark side.

Another thing I found interesting is that Rey doesn't even tell Leia about Kylo. She knows she's his mother and she knows from Luke she entrusted him with her son, yet when they finally talk in TLJ it's about Luke and the Resistance. Why is Rey suddenly interested in how they can build a Resistance? It feels forced.

I think the comment about Rey not caring for Kylo at all was actually made by the author of the article, not by Daisy herself.

@Saracene

I kinda feel like the writers are struggling with Rey; her need for family and connection is obvious and relatable, but it's like there's also an understanding that these things alone can't motivate a strong female character in an action-adventure film about galaxy-sized stakes. So they try to fill in her story with the more heroic Resistance/force stuff, but it doesn't quite work IMO.

This is the impression I get as well. Rey's allegiance to the Resistance feels forced and the whole jedi stuff feels like padding. Are the writers afraid of stating that Rey's main motivation is Kylo? Are they afraid of the potential backlash that it might cause to admit that Rey is central to the story not because of a legacy, but because of her connection to Ben (a man)? Are they trying to protect their mystery boxes until IX? How is Rey the last jedi when she has basically received no training? She hasn't even read the jedi texts yet, and can she really be called the last jedi if she does? If Finn decides to read those books, that doesn't mean he's now a jedi. If anything, I'd sooner call Ben the last jedi Laughing Laughing Laughing

What TLJ really hammered home for me is that this is really Ben's story, seen through Rey's perspective as a protagonist.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by CienaRee on Sun 14 Jan 2018 - 8:53

@rawpowah wrote:@DeeBee

There are some things about Rey's motivations that I agree with. For starters, they're certainly weaker than Luke's were at the beginning of ESB. Luke had already fought for the Rebellion and had a position there, so his motivation to train can be attributed to his desire to help the rebels and his friends who are fighting on that side.

Meanwhile, with Rey, the first questions I asked myself were: Why is she the one sent by the Resistance to go find Luke? She had only been with them for a couple of hours. Why would Leia trust a stranger to bring back her brother over someone like Poe, for example? After all, he's been in the Resistance for a long time and nobody can question his loyalties. Leia trusted Poe "the best pilot of the Resistance" to locate the map to Luke, but he is not the one sent to actually bring the guy back. Why not have Leia herself go to bring back Luke? Nobody can convince him better than she can. Heck, even sending Chewie by himself or with 3PO makes more sense than sending Rey.

The only reason Rey would be sent is if she volunteered. But why would she volunteer to help a group of strangers? The Resistance didn't come to rescue her. They were more concerned about destroying Starkiller Base and would probably have blown it up with Rey inside. They don't know her and she doesn't know them. In TFA, Han is more preoccupied with Ben than with Rey, and Leia is more preoccupied with getting Finn to tell the Resistance all the FO intel he has.

But Rey would volunteer because of her encounters with Kylo Ren and what those encounters awakened inside of her. These would be imo, the answers she is seeking. There's something that passes between them in the interrogation scene when they peer into each other's minds (as confirmed by Kasdan and the Lucasfilm storygroup), and the same awakening passes between them when Anakin's saber goes into her hands and the Force theme plays, as well as when she's over the cliff "finding the force" with Kylo and defeats him. Combine this with the visions she had when she touched the saber, as well as Maz's advice that her belonging is ahead. and I think you have some motivation (however flimsy that might be). Rey believes her belonging and purpose is to find Luke so that he can help her understand what she just saw when she touched the saber and why it is calling to her and to understand what just happened between her and Kylo.

I agree that she doesn't view Kylo as a potential boyfriend from the beginning. I think she zooms in on him as a boyfriend/baby daddy/whatever when they touch hands and have those visions of each other. I think that's when she gets her answers because she wants to find belonging and understand her awakening in the force. We don't know how she feels about being a jedi or her interests in the field at all, which seems to support the argument in that tumblr post that Rey's main priority was (and is) Kylo and their shared future. She can want to start a jedi order (a new order hehe) for some reason or another, but I think she would want to do that with him.

As to why she doesn't tell Luke about the first manifestation of the force bond: It's something I've been puzzling over, and the only answer that came to me is that she is attracted to Kylo (or he awakens something inside her through the force) and Rey knows this is not something socially acceptable because he is from the dark side.

Another thing I found interesting is that Rey doesn't even tell Leia about Kylo. She knows she's his mother and she knows from Luke she entrusted him with her son, yet when they finally talk in TLJ it's about Luke and the Resistance. Why is Rey suddenly interested in how they can build a Resistance? It feels forced.

I think the comment about Rey not caring for Kylo at all was actually made by the author of the article, not by Daisy herself.

@Saracene

I kinda feel like the writers are struggling with Rey; her need for family and connection is obvious and relatable, but it's like there's also an understanding that these things alone can't motivate a strong female character in an action-adventure film about galaxy-sized stakes. So they try to fill in her story with the more heroic Resistance/force stuff, but it doesn't quite work IMO.

This is the impression I get as well. Rey's allegiance to the Resistance feels forced and the whole jedi stuff feels like padding. Are the writers afraid of stating that Rey's main motivation is Kylo? Are they afraid of the potential backlash that it might cause to admit that Rey is central to the story not because of a legacy, but because of her connection to Ben (a man)? Are they trying to protect their mystery boxes until IX? How is Rey the last jedi when she has basically received no training? She hasn't even read the jedi texts yet, and can she really be called the last jedi if she does? If Finn decides to read those books, that doesn't mean he's now a jedi. If anything, I'd sooner call Ben the last jedi Laughing Laughing Laughing

What TLJ really hammered home for me is that this is really Ben's story, seen through Rey's perspective as a protagonist.
@rawpowah

I think your explanation is most likely the best answer as to why The Resistance send Rey to find Luke: she volunteers because she's afraid of the growing powers in herself(aka the connection she shares with Kylo because as the author says she has no problem using the Force to beat Kylo or to mindtrick someone). The movie even acknowledges that Rey's motivation to go to Luke aren't about the Resistance but about what she needs from him which is interesting because it adds depth to Rey instead of making her completely autistic which wouldn't be realistic in the first place since she has no connection to the Resistance whatsoever.
As to whether LF are afraid of Rey's motivation being Kylo well in this case they should blame themselves if they're so bothered by it they created Rey to be someone who want to find love and belonging so of course Kylo would be her main motivation since he's part of the family she wants to build. Of course because she's a good person she wants to help people who are in need(in this case it's the Resistance,but also because she has very black and white views so for her FO=evil while the Resistance=good so of course she's going to help the good guys from her POV and notice how she immediately connects the FO with Kylo because he means something to her while the FO in itself doesn't ) but she's not Leia for example who was aways driven mainly by duty or Luke who's main goal was adventure and becoming a Jedi.
Personally I've aways seen Rey as very childlike ho at the beginning needs guidance and someone to show her where she fits only to realize as she grows into a mature woman that she had to find her place on her own I think that's a very common trope in the coming of age story lines.

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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by Lucina on Sun 14 Jan 2018 - 15:29

@Saracene wrote:I don't know if I agree with the premise of the article that Rey's interest in Kylo is her main motivator from the start. But I do agree that, next to Rey's connection with Kylo, the rest of the things that supposedly motivate her are kinda weak and/or obscured. It's true that her connection with the Resistance is pretty flimsy and Luke even blatantly calls her out on it at the start of the film. Her force/Jedi journey is also kinda wishy-washy; she needs to be told by someone else how she fits into the bigger picture instead of deciding things for herself, she gets lessons from Luke on why there should not be any more Jedi but we've no clue as to what exactly she absorbed from them and what's her interest in the Jedi books about. Her lifting the rocks in the end is played as a significant moment, but apart from the external significance - that Luke is not the last Jedi - it doesn't really feel like any sort of culminating/breakthrough internal moment for Rey herself.

I kinda feel like the writers are struggling with Rey; her need for family and connection is obvious and relatable, but it's like there's also an understanding that these things alone can't motivate a strong female character in an action-adventure film about galaxy-sized stakes. So they try to fill in her story with the more heroic Resistance/force stuff, but it doesn't quite work IMO.
@Saracene

This makes me think of a video I saw a while ago on YouTube about how to write a compelling backstory for characters:



To summarize, the guy in the video argues that the best kind of backstories are the ones in which something bad happens to the main character and they blame themselves for it, because feelings of guilt and regret are crucial to character growth and pretty much force the character to change over the course of the story and overcome their inner demons.

This made me think of Rey’s backstory and how the addition of one small detail would have given Rey a pretty good motivator to learn about the force/become a Jedi: What if Rey was not just abandoned by her parents because they were horrible people but because they were afraid of her strong force powers? Imagine there was an incident when she was a child that threatened her life and she accidentally uses the force to protect herself and as a result harms other people with it. This would have also explained why Rey was so afraid of the force and rejects the lightsaber at first in TFA, because subconsciously she would know that these powers led to her parents abandoning her. Her character growth would then be about overcoming her fear and learning how to control her own powers and accepting it as a part of herself.

They could still reveal something like that in Episode IX but I doubt it. It would be too late to introduce such an element anyways...
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by DeeBee on Sun 14 Jan 2018 - 20:45

@Night Huntress wrote: I wondered about that myself. We discussed that in another threat- I think it was the one about Luke in VIII?    

Her not telling Luke is a huge thing in my opinion. I mean neither of them are telling their mentors.
I get why Kylo isn't telling Snoke- but why would Rey keep that secret from Luke?
She is even lying to him after the first FB session that she was cleaning her blaster and it went off...

Maybe because Luke already is so reluctant to teach her and she was afraid of his reaction? But why would he be mad at her about something that is beyond her control? And wouldn't that even help gain Luke's trust if she tells him?    

I think it's for personal reasons- I think the author of the text doesn't mean she is literally attracted and interested in Kylo as a boyfriend from the beginning, and that's her motivation. But she did seek belonging and a family and her subconscious are feeling that there is something between them that is pulling her to him . She is totally inexperienced in that matter and has know idea how to deal with it.

most psychologists agree that hostility is really just sublimated sexual attraction.          

So, yeah- I got the "hiding the secret boyfriend your parents won't agree about" feeling, too
@Night Huntress
Yes it’s going to tell us something about Rey that she doesn’t tell Luke about the force bond. Interesting isn’t it
I agree that when the first force bond moment happens, she would have not had any confidence in Luke as her teacher. Their relationship was very tenuous and uncertain.

Hostility is not always sublimated sexual attraction. Rey was pretty hostile toward Snoke too haaa but.. I think Rey’s changing feelings for Kylo are definitely a part of this story for sure.

@Saracene wrote: I don't know if I agree with the premise of the article that Rey's interest in Kylo is her main motivator from the start. But I do agree that, next to Rey's connection with Kylo, the rest of the things that supposedly motivate her are kinda weak and/or obscured. It's true that her connection with the Resistance is pretty flimsy and Luke even blatantly calls her out on it at the start of the film. Her force/Jedi journey is also kinda wishy-washy; she needs to be told by someone else how she fits into the bigger picture instead of deciding things for herself, she gets lessons from Luke on why there should not be any more Jedi but we've no clue as to what exactly she absorbed from them and what's her interest in the Jedi books about. Her lifting the rocks in the end is played as a significant moment, but apart from the external significance - that Luke is not the last Jedi - it doesn't really feel like any sort of culminating/breakthrough internal moment for Rey herself.

I kinda feel like the writers are struggling with Rey; her need for family and connection is obvious and relatable, but it's like there's also an understanding that these things alone can't motivate a strong female character in an action-adventure film about galaxy-sized stakes. So they try to fill in her story with the more heroic Resistance/force stuff, but it doesn't quite work IMO.
@Saracene
Yeah Rey is definitely a puzzle that needs to be put together. Rey’s motivations are I think complex, multi-layered and change over the course of her story. I don’t know if the writers are struggling with Rey. I think there are questions about her at the end of TLJ that we don’t have answers to yet.
We know she has a future role to play in rebuilding a reformed Jedi – but what exactly that reformed Jedi will look like, and how that fits with the rebellion and the FO is at this stage, IMHO not clear.
What reformed Jedi will look like is yet to be revealed IMHO. All we know really is what Luke and Yoda told us.. that the light exists whether the Jedi exists or not, that the Jedi order in the past had been full of hubris and arrogance and had failed in bringing peace the galaxy. The original jedi texts will likely inform this in IX, but at this point – I think what Rey will become as a jedi is still yet to be explained fully. The issue of Jedi and no attachments didn’t even come up in TLJ – but it’s bubbling away beneath it all because of Rey’s need for connection and belonging, and her existing special connection with Ben. There is absolutely a tension there at how this could all fit together that I want to see play out.
It's implied Rey’s force vision is Rey and Ben together in the future – a romantic future.. so it begs the question about Rey being a future Jedi and what it could look like.
Or.. then again – maybe it’s just me haaaa
[I’ve figured it out. Emoticons seem to cut off my comments!]


Last edited by DeeBee on Sun 14 Jan 2018 - 20:46; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : comments cut off)
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by DeeBee on Sun 14 Jan 2018 - 21:45

Hiya @rawpowah
Hope you don’t mind if I split up your comment to respond throughout..
There is much goodness in here to respond to haaa..

@rawpowah wrote: There are some things about Rey's motivations that I agree with. For starters, they're certainly weaker than Luke's were at the beginning of ESB. Luke had already fought for the Rebellion and had a position there, so his motivation to train can be attributed to his desire to help the rebels and his friends who are fighting on that side.

Great to hear your thoughts!
Yes I agree, Rey’s connection with the rebellion is much weaker than Luke’s was at the start of ESB. Wasn’t there a five year gap between ANH and ESB?!

@rawpowah wrote: Meanwhile, with Rey, the first questions I asked myself were: Why is she the one sent by the Resistance to go find Luke? She had only been with them for a couple of hours. Why would Leia trust a stranger to bring back her brother over someone like Poe, for example? After all, he's been in the Resistance for a long time and nobody can question his loyalties. Leia trusted Poe "the best pilot of the Resistance" to locate the map to Luke, but he is not the one sent to actually bring the guy back. Why not have Leia herself go to bring back Luke? Nobody can convince him better than she can. Heck, even sending Chewie by himself or with 3PO makes more sense than sending Rey.

Focusing on where Rey starts out in TLJ here-
I think Rey was sent by Leia, and Rey volunteered because Rey is strong in the force, and Luke is someone she needs to talk to. Rey may not have been well known at the end of TFA, but she had demonstrated she was against the FO and had common values to Leia and the rebel cause I think.
Why would Rey volunteer? As Kylo rightly identified at the end of TFA: Rey needs a teacher. She needs someone to show her the ways of the force.
The last Jedi would seem a logical choice..

@rawpowah wrote: But Rey would volunteer because of her encounters with Kylo Ren and what those encounters awakened inside of her. These would be imo, the answers she is seeking. There's something that passes between them in the interrogation scene when they peer into each other's minds (as confirmed by Kasdan and the Lucasfilm storygroup), and the same awakening passes between them when Anakin's saber goes into her hands and the Force theme plays, as well as when she's over the cliff "finding the force" with Kylo and defeats him. Combine this with the visions she had when she touched the saber, as well as Maz's advice that her belonging is ahead. and I think you have some motivation (however flimsy that might be). Rey believes her belonging and purpose is to find Luke so that he can help her understand what she just saw when she touched the saber and why it is calling to her and to understand what just happened between her and Kylo.  

I think the article that started this discussion made me a little uneasy because it felt to me that it downplayed what was going on here with Rey and the force.
Rey says during the cave scene later that she had come to Ach-to expecting to find answers.
I think that is answers about the force, what had awakened in her, and her place in all this. Answers about who she is – the big question was about identity. And where will she belong…
I don’t think she arrived on Ach-to expecting to find answers about Kylo. At the start of TLJ I don’t think she has any questions about him! She doesn’t know enough yet to realise she should be seeking answers about him or that he is in some way special I think.  
Keep in mind – this is where she starts out in TLJ I’m talking about – this changes as the story progresses.

Her winding up on Ach-to has all come about so quickly, and Rey’s defeat of Kylo was so spectacular, it can be easy to overlook just how very little Rey knows about the force and what was happening to her.
When she finally has her first lesson with Luke, we found out just how very little she understood this thing, this experience she had been having. No wonder she spoke in such hushed tones about how it had awakened and she needed someone to help her. Very scary stuff.


@rawpowah wrote: I agree that she doesn't view Kylo as a potential boyfriend from the beginning. I think she zooms in on him as a boyfriend/baby daddy/whatever when they touch hands and have those visions of each other. I think that's when she gets her answers because she wants to find belonging and understand her awakening in the force.

LOL baby daddy! Haaa..
Interesting that you put this moment at the hand vision.. yes it is definitely cemented in her mind in that moment that there is someone special here with this guy!

@rawpowah wrote: We don't know how she feels about being a jedi or her interests in the field at all, which seems to support the argument in that tumblr post that Rey's main priority was (and is) Kylo and their shared future. She can want to start a jedi order (a new order hehe) for some reason or another, but I think she would want to do that with him.  

Indeed, it is easy to fill in the blanks in the story and her motivations with attributing things to Rey’s growing feelings for Kylo… We shall see.
She seems to have chosen a path for herself at the end of TLJ whether Ben is with her or not…. Or it may be that she still hopes he will turn one day. I think we just don’t know..

@rawpowah wrote: As to why she doesn't tell Luke about the first manifestation of the force bond: It's something I've been puzzling over, and the only answer that came to me is that she is attracted to Kylo (or he awakens something inside her through the force) and Rey knows this is not something socially acceptable because he is from the dark side.

I think her reason for not telling Luke changes over the course of the force bonds! Lol.. I do have to go and make things complicated, but then I like that about this movie..
Yes maybe a part of keeping it secret is consistently because it is not socially acceptable because he is on the opposing side. I can see that could be a factor that continues being a motivator.
I also think that when she had the first force vision – she had no idea what it is, or what was happening. She didn’t even know what the force was at that point, it was before her first lesson with Luke. Poor girl. There is much to be confused about!! And she isn’t even aware enough to actually question it or be confused – she just lashes out and reacts to Kylo – shooting first haaa.
Rey has no idea that it could ever be more than a one off thing. She doesn’t know what the force is much less what a force bond is. Kylo is knowledgeable about the force and immediately knows it is significant.
Maybe Rey thought it was a one off, had no idea what to do with it, was afraid of what Luke would do with it, and she didn’t trust Luke anyway. She had no relationship with Luke at that point.
When the force bond session happened again – why did she not tell Luke? I think this may have a different answer, and that this is where attraction to Kylo starts to enter the picture!

@rawpowah wrote: Another thing I found interesting is that Rey doesn't even tell Leia about Kylo. She knows she's his mother and she knows from Luke she entrusted him with her son, yet when they finally talk in TLJ it's about Luke and the Resistance. Why is Rey suddenly interested in how they can build a Resistance? It feels forced.

If you are referring to the start of TLJ - I am assuming Rey told Leia about Kylo. She had to have explained how she defeated him on SKB at least.. which would have meant revealing to Leia her newly discovered force sensitivity.
As for revealing the detail – and the connection they shared during the interrogation? I don’t think she would have told anyone. What would she tell? I think think she has no words to put to it. Understandably.
at the end of TLJ - I think Rey is too overwhelmed to even begin to explain the whole story of what went down with Ben. And they had both just senses that they had lost Luke - so I figure not the time to recount what happened with Ben.
I think Rey is a personality who is going to need to go off and process what happened between her and Ben before she could even think about telling someone else about it. I liked how the article highlighted how little Rey shares with people. The article was spot on about that - totally nailed it.. and I agree that it was significant that Rey, in time, is confiding with Ben - she really has let him into a place in her heart where she has never let anyone else at that point I think. Awhhh... and it's likely because he is in a position to understand her in a way that no one else ever could - because of all that they have in common..

Why so suddenly interested in building the resistance?
From the point of view at the start of TLJ:
She has had a run in with the FO – they kidnapped her.. and in her eyes.. tried to kill her, tried to kill Finn too. She also had connected the Han who lost his life to Kylo – so she does have some investment in the resistance and their cause. I can see she would easily align with the resistance. Plus, she can’t go back to Jakku now – she’s got to figure out this force thing.
However, I also don’t think this means she has committed her life to the resistance at the start of TLJ… She has bigger fish to fry.. and she is yet to find her true place in the world.

At the end of TLJ I see her as more invested in the resistance, having found her place/ her purpose in the world. I think she fights for a common cause with them – she is aligned with the resistance, but I don’t think the rebellion is her destiny. I think she will have a side purpose that is more force centric – to do with the reformed Jedi.. but it’s all still very vague.

@rawpowah wrote: I think the comment about Rey not caring for Kylo at all was actually made by the author of the article, not by Daisy herself.

Oh yeah. You are right rawpowah. I found it. It was that EW article.. Best to stick to the quotes rather than the author’s interpretations!
Here is DR’s quote:
“I etan, she’s been left her whole life, and very quickly is eager to sort of help other people, which is wonderful. She wants to be part of something. I mean, everyone wants to be part of something.”
Source: http://ew.com/movies/2017/11/19/star-wars-kylo-ren-vs-rey-the-last-jedi/

@rawpowah wrote:  What TLJ really hammered home for me is that this is really Ben's story, seen through Rey's perspective as a protagonist.
I think it’s clear the intention is that Rey is a main protagonist. But, I think how Rey’s story is going to unfold is less clearly defined that Ben’s..
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by DeeBee on Sun 14 Jan 2018 - 22:00

@CienaRee - interesting thoughts!

@CienaRee wrote:
As to whether LF are afraid of Rey's motivation being Kylo well in this case they should blame themselves if they're so bothered by it they created Rey to be someone who want to find love and belonging so of course Kylo would be her main motivation since he's part of the family she wants to build.

I think by the end of TLJ Kylo/Ben is absolutely a major motivation for Rey’s decision making.. and I don’t get the impression LF are distancing themselves from that. ??

By the end of TLJ, Kylo is a part of that family she was hoping for yes.


I think something special/unique happened that involves Rey and Kylo in TFA, but I don't think Rey knows enough at the start of TLJ to know this. However, by the end of TLJ, I would agree that she would look back on the events of TFA with fresh eyes and realise that indeed something had happened that was special/unique. Hope i'm making sense. lol.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by DeeBee on Sun 14 Jan 2018 - 22:31

I feel like i need to wait till the dvds are in my hands to truly pick apart the force bond scenes. I think they help us to dig into Rey's changing view of Kylo - and thus her changing motivations.. but I'll give it a brief go and see if any of you would like to share your own thoughts on this.

In the first force bond scene.. As my previous comment to rawpowah explained, Rey is transported right back to the SKB moment - Kylo her enemy. She shoots first.. and there is little dialogue.. Rey only has one line which spells it out what she thinks of him (not much! and very simplistic)
Here's my non-beta'd transcript of Force Bond session 1: [I've only transcribed descriptions enough to follow the scene progression]
(Rey shoots.
Rey runs outside, Kylo slides out into the hallway)  
Kylo: You will bring me Skywalker (Rey doesn’t respond to this demand)
you're not doing this the effort would kill you... can you see my surroundings?
Rey: you’re going to pay for what you did!!
Kylo: I can’t see yours. Just you. Somehow…. This is something else..
[Luke comes out of his hut behind Rey and Kylo notices her reacting to it]
Luke: what’s that about? (pointing to the hole in Rey’s hut wall the blaster made)
Kylo: Luke.
(Rey is furious)
-the force bond closes-

Force bond session 2:
So Kylo is looking out over the hangar thinking... Rey is enjoying the rain...
Kylo turns toward Rey..
K: Why is the force connecting us? You and I.
R: Murderous snake! You’re too late. You lost. I found Skywalker!
K: Did he tell you what happened? The night I destroyed his temple. Did he tell you why?
R: I know everything I need to know about  you.
K: you do? ….Ohhhhh you do… You have that look in your eyes. From the forest. You called me a monster.
R: you are a monster.
K: (pause).. Yes I am!
(long stares.. then cuts to K wiping his forehead and seeing rain on his glove).

-Rey starts off in the same mindset as the previous force bond moment.. but... things start to change here.
Just focusing on Rey  - but the end moment of this force bond session really struck me as the moment where Rey really starts to change her view of Kylo.. and ask - just what is going on here?

She starts the scene looking at him like she did in the forest - like a monster.. [with much passion too I might add- very un-Jedi of her Wink an illustration of how Rey is not all light side.. ]
The scene ends with a close up on Rey that lingers juuuust a little longer than needed to tell us something.. her expression changes from a frown to something much less easily identified.. and there's a sense of unease..
I think the end of this scene is where she is starting to change- this guy is not a simple monster!!
She suddenly no longer knows all that she needs to know about him!!!

The quiet, intimate tone of voice from Kylo.. and the very intense eye contact here from him I think sets her pulse racing in a different way than she would have expected from a murderous snake. (dang, that attraction she felt in the interrogation room.. it's still there!)
I think it's hotter than the next shirtless force bond session Wink Kylo's watching Rey with a tonne of heat.. He is relentless.

Force bond session 3 - I can share the dialogue another time.. I need to get on with other stuff.. lol..or someone else can if you like..
I'd love to hear other's ideas on these first two force bond sessions if anyone would like to share.
Bye!
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by rawpowah on Mon 15 Jan 2018 - 11:56

@DeeBee wrote:
Great to hear your thoughts!
Yes I agree, Rey’s connection with the rebellion is much weaker than Luke’s was at the start of ESB. Wasn’t there a five year gap between ANH and ESB?!

I honestly can't remember how much time passed between those movies, but it was enough time to have someone address Luke as "Commander Skywalker" iirc when they were on Hoth. So he's a part of the chain of command.


Focusing on where Rey starts out in TLJ here-
I think Rey was sent by Leia, and Rey volunteered because Rey is strong in the force, and Luke is someone she needs to talk to. Rey may not have been well known at the end of TFA, but she had demonstrated she was against the FO and had common values to Leia and the rebel cause I think.
Why would Rey volunteer? As Kylo rightly identified at the end of TFA: Rey needs a teacher. She needs someone to show her the ways of the force.
The last Jedi would seem a logical choice..

She certainly wouldn't join the FO. It would make no sense and be against her character. But she also hadn't fought for the Resistance side in TFA. She fought against Kylo, but only to escape and save herself and Finn. She didn't fight for the cause the way Luke did in ANH. I think even Daisy said in an interview Rey isn't super involved with the Resistance.


Her winding up on Ach-to has all come about so quickly, and Rey’s defeat of Kylo was so spectacular, it can be easy to overlook just how very little Rey knows about the force and what was happening to her.
When she finally has her first lesson with Luke, we found out just how very little she understood this thing, this experience she had been having. No wonder she spoke in such hushed tones about how it had awakened and she needed someone to help her. Very scary stuff.

Very true.

Another thing that struck me when she explains to Luke why she's here is that iirc she says she's afraid. This reminded me of the infamous line in TFA "Don't be afraid. I feel it too."


Indeed, it is easy to fill in the blanks in the story and her motivations with attributing things to Rey’s growing feelings for Kylo… We shall see.
She seems to have chosen a path for herself at the end of TLJ whether Ben is with her or not…. Or it may be that she still hopes he will turn one day. I think we just don’t know..

Yes, I think once we start getting information about IX we will have more clarity. Since she didn't agree with Ben's proposal, there really was no choice for her but to go other than leave and go to the Resistance. It remains to be seen what her plans are and what her role there will be.


I think her reason for not telling Luke changes over the course of the force bonds! Lol.. I do have to go and make things complicated, but then I like that about this movie..
Yes maybe a part of keeping it secret is consistently because it is not socially acceptable because he is on the opposing side. I can see that could be a factor that continues being a motivator.
I also think that when she had the first force vision – she had no idea what it is, or what was happening. She didn’t even know what the force was at that point, it was before her first lesson with Luke. Poor girl. There is much to be confused about!! And she isn’t even aware enough to actually question it or be confused – she just lashes out and reacts to Kylo – shooting first haaa.
Rey has no idea that it could ever be more than a one off thing. She doesn’t know what the force is much less what a force bond is. Kylo is knowledgeable about the force and immediately knows it is significant.
Maybe Rey thought it was a one off, had no idea what to do with it, was afraid of what Luke would do with it, and she didn’t trust Luke anyway. She had no relationship with Luke at that point.
When the force bond session happened again – why did she not tell Luke? I think this may have a different answer, and that this is where attraction to Kylo starts to enter the picture!

I keep thinking about Rian's statement that he wanted to create this uncomfortable intimacy between them. Why would there be uncomfortable intimacy unless Rey was attracted to him? She would feel uncomfortable because he's her enemy and she's supposed to hate him, yet something is awakening between them and she's drawn to him. To add to that, she's seeing him when he's not at work as Kylo Ren, but under normal and more humanizing circumstances.


If you are referring to the start of TLJ - I am assuming Rey told Leia about Kylo. She had to have explained how she defeated him on SKB at least.. which would have meant revealing to Leia her newly discovered force sensitivity.

This seems like a significant event I would expect to happen on-screen. She can say she felt something when she touched the saber. Hmm, yes I think we need to find out just how much Leia knows about her son's whereabouts.


I think Rey is a personality who is going to need to go off and process what happened between her and Ben before she could even think about telling someone else about it. I liked how the article highlighted how little Rey shares with people. The article was spot on about that - totally nailed it.. and I agree that it was significant that Rey, in time, is confiding with Ben - she really has let him into a place in her heart where she has never let anyone else at that point I think. Awhhh... and it's likely because he is in a position to understand her in a way that no one else ever could - because of all that they have in common..

Yes, I absolutely loved that part. And what's also remarkable is how quickly she confides in him. It really shows just how strong the bond is and how fast they've assimilated information about each other. In the shirtless scene he tells her the truth that her parents threw her away like garbage, so way before the elevator scene where he tells her he saw who her parents were. I know some share the theory that Ben saw Rey's past when they touched hands, but it's very likely this is information he picked up beforehand. It all explains why the relationship between them developed so quickly.

I think their separation will help Rey process some things. I don't know how Ben will deal with it though lol.


At the end of TLJ I see her as more invested in the resistance, having found her place/ her purpose in the world. I think she fights for a common cause with them – she is aligned with the resistance, but I don’t think the rebellion is her destiny. I think she will have a side purpose that is more force centric – to do with the reformed Jedi.. but it’s all still very vague.

Yes I think at a surface level the movie shows that now she's 100% committed to the Resistance, which is why so many non-Reylos are saying their relationship has ended and there won't be any budging, but I agree that the Rebellion is not her destiny in the way it is for Poe or Finn. Poe's entire arc was about him being groomed to lead, and Finn's climactic moments were when he declared himself "Rebel scum" and was ready to sacrifice himself for the Resistance, but I never saw a moment like this with Rey.


“I etan, she’s been left her whole life, and very quickly is eager to sort of help other people, which is wonderful. She wants to be part of something. I mean, everyone wants to be part of something.”
Source: http://ew.com/movies/2017/11/19/star-wars-kylo-ren-vs-rey-the-last-jedi/

Yeah I think her saying that everyone wants to be a part of something is interesting. Is she like everyone? Do her desires match with everyone else's?

The statements in this article were also pretty interesting to me, as far as Rey's wants: https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/movies/2017/12/12/star-wars-daisy-ridleys-rey-adam-drivers-kylo-ren-offer-complex-duo-last-jedi/940306001/

“Luke came to Yoda saying, ‘Train me to be a Jedi,’ and I don’t think Rey is at that place, at least not yet,” Johnson adds. “She doesn’t have that certainty — she doesn’t know that’s what she wants.”

“She’s been alone for a long time," Ridley says. "She just wants to find somewhere she can be still and figure things out — and for her, that is neither the light nor the dark."

Is this still a thing at the end of the movie? The article seems to imply it is, but I don't know. What do you think?


I think it’s clear the intention is that Rey is a main protagonist. But, I think how Rey’s story is going to unfold is less clearly defined that Ben’s..
@DeeBee

Oh yes. I'm definitely not questioning her status as protagonist. But her story is less defined, which to me is a bit odd considering her status. I don't know how to put it into words right now.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by DeeBee on Wed 17 Jan 2018 - 0:49

Hiya @rawpowah, thanks for the reply!
BTW your comment somewhere (no idea where I read that!) about the elevator eyes that actually happen in the elevator were hilarious! Haaaa

Commander skywalker eh. Maybe Rey is to the resistance the equivalent of what Kylo was to the FO (until he asceded in TLJ).. a force related side project that utilises the special force skills for the overall greater cause, but which is an aside. Yes I’m thinking Rey is not a part of the chain of command in the resistance. I kinda hope not!

Yes bring on more info about IX!

@rawpowah wrote: I keep thinking about Rian's statement that he wanted to create this uncomfortable intimacy between them. Why would there be uncomfortable intimacy unless Rey was attracted to him? She would feel uncomfortable because he's her enemy and she's supposed to hate him, yet something is awakening between them and she's drawn to him. To add to that, she's seeing him when he's not at work as Kylo Ren, but under normal and more humanizing circumstances.

Yes I agree Rey found Kylo Ren attractive from the get go.. but I don’t think that means she would have given him much thought or he would have factored greatly into her motivation at the start of TLJ, as that article had suggested.. I’m thinking it’s not till the end of FB 2 that she starts to start asking questions and pay more attention to her attraction to Kylo.. Yes the shirtless scene is the next FB session (FB 3) so that fits well with her whole reaction to seeing how shredded he is haaa..

@rawpowah wrote: This seems like a significant event I would expect to happen on-screen. She can say she felt something when she touched the saber. Hmm, yes I think we need to find out just how much Leia knows about her son's whereabouts.
Oh I think there are loads of significant things that happen off screen that we just have to wave away and say-whatever! And I really don’t mind most of the time. It’s star wars not star conversations.. so I’m delighted we got the 4x FB scenes and so much talking – this is progress no?

@rawpowah wrote: Yes, I absolutely loved that part. And what's also remarkable is how quickly she confides in him. It really shows just how strong the bond is and how fast they've assimilated information about each other. In the shirtless scene he tells her the truth that her parents threw her away like garbage, so way before the elevator scene where he tells her he saw who her parents were. I know some share the theory that Ben saw Rey's past when they touched hands, but it's very likely this is information he picked up beforehand. It all explains why the relationship between them developed so quickly.
I love it too. Yeah you are right she is very quick to confide in him.
I put this down to the force bond and it’s nature. Combined with what they’ve learned about each other – the sharing was too hard to resist (seems this is what Snoke implied when he talked about the bond and using it).

@rawpowah wrote: Yes I think at a surface level the movie shows that now she's 100% committed to the Resistance, which is why so many non-Reylos are saying their relationship has ended and there won't be any budging, but I agree that the Rebellion is not her destiny in the way it is for Poe or Finn. Poe's entire arc was about him being groomed to lead, and Finn's climactic moments were when he declared himself "Rebel scum" and was ready to sacrifice himself for the Resistance, but I never saw a moment like this with Rey.

So true.. I think this is all based on assumptions that are based on a simple understanding of Rey.. maybe the simple version is correct.. and I’m wrong. We’ll see! But I agree with you that 100% commitment to the resistance is surface level and there is much more complexity here that is yet to be revealed because Rey’s story is still unfolding (and she was neglected in favour of the needed Kylo/Luke confrontation that really had to happen.. so I’m cool with it).

@rawpowah wrote: “Luke came to Yoda saying, ‘Train me to be a Jedi,’ and I don’t think Rey is at that place, at least not yet,” Johnson adds. “She doesn’t have that certainty — she doesn’t know that’s what she wants.”
Yeah I think she didn’t even know what the force is or what a jedi is starting out much less hey train me to be a Jedi!!!

@rawpowah wrote: “She’s been alone for a long time," Ridley says. "She just wants to find somewhere she can be still and figure things out — and for her, that is neither the light nor the dark."

Is this still a thing at the end of the movie? The article seems to imply it is, but I don't know. What do you think?

Whooo yes, I think this is  Rey at the end of TLJ – she needs to process what's happened (so much!).. and dig into those texts… I am seeing this as a major part of her story moving into IX! Yes!! I think she is yet to put the pieces together in what the new reformed Jedi will be. She knows what it will not be.. but she is yet to figure out the next step.

I’ve seen the view around that Rey training new jedi just contradicts what Luke said and the process will start all over again... I’m not seeing this at all – the flawed Jedi way is over.. Even Yoda agreed..
The question remains what will the new reformed Jedi be?
This.. is IMHO at the heart of what IX will be all about.. ‘Jedi’ is not going to mean what it use to mean!
It’s going to be different!! [At a guess, me thinks it will be balanced Jedi..]

@rawpowah wrote: Oh yes. I'm definitely not questioning her status as protagonist. But her story is less defined, which to me is a bit odd considering her status. I don't know how to put it into words right now.

Ohhh I see. Maybe this ties into my thought on how she was a little neglected at the end there – because there were other priorities in the story telling? I do think we got enough but it’s not fully fleshed out, she does take some figuring out there at the end as it's not (IMHO) spelled out for the audience.
I think it’s intentional that we don’t really have a clear picture of what is next for her.
[So when I read some saying her path forward has no tension to it anymore - I respectfully disagree].

Thanks for the interesting discussion raw powah!
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by SkyStar on Thu 18 Jan 2018 - 5:10

Rey's mirror scene reminded me of Jean Cocteau' "Orpheus" and even while mirror scenes are nothing new, this fits thematically so well with the mythology of Rey going underground as Orpheus and also finding Kylo in the reflection. And I know that some prefer Cocteau's version of Beauty of the Beast. I remember that one proffesor told us they used liquid mercury to pass the mirrors in Cocteau's movie. And of course this movie also features death as the temptation. Only the genders are reversed. Maybe there is something in Orpheus for Kylo as well.

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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by DeeBee on Thu 18 Jan 2018 - 22:07

@SkyStar wrote:Rey's mirror scene reminded me of Jean Cocteau' "Orpheus" and even while mirror scenes are nothing new, this fits thematically so well with the mythology of Rey going underground as Orpheus and also finding Kylo in the reflection. And I know that some prefer Cocteau's version of Beauty of the Beast. I remember that one proffesor told us they used liquid mercury to pass the mirrors in Cocteau's movie. And of course this movie also features death as the temptation. Only the genders are reversed. Maybe there is something in Orpheus for Kylo as well.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by SheLitAFire on Fri 19 Jan 2018 - 19:27

Mod Note---
The 3 threads on Rey's journey (Rey's Emotional Journey, The Heroine's Journey, and Rey's Journey So Far...) have all been merged into this thread.

Please let the staff know if you have any questions. Thanks!


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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by Saracene on Fri 19 Jan 2018 - 20:37

I put all of my gripes with the writing for Rey into a blog article, if anyone is interested:

https://yggdrasille.com/2018/01/18/the-problems-with-rey/
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by SkyStar on Sat 20 Jan 2018 - 3:48

I think Rey's character has this potential to explore the shadow theory and to me it feels like it isn't done enough for audience to understand it. Rey is hiding with her mask of charm and positivity, but even while having her mask she is lonely. And to all the loneliness her positivity helps but doesn't really make her feel the happiness by herself. Does she even understand herself? She has repressed her trauma for so long, there are multiple Rey's like in the mirror scene. Maybe she does things because she thinks she needs to not because she wants it?

But I think it's great if there are some exploration with a character who hides behind a cheerful mask, because it's a real mechanism of coping. And in a real life not everyone sees past it and are suprised to discover how the person feels inside. "Oh, but he was so happy and joked all the time!" And it's important that Kylo said that she is not alone. Because Finn is a friend that can hang close, but. He doesn't know how Rey feels. Kylo is the first one who helped to not be ashamed of her sense of abandonment.

It still doesn't make sense how she was so cheerful after the throne scene, but at the same time it isn't even that easy to change you patterns of behavior. Its true for both Kylo and Rey. And I think Rey will start to to think about her feelings more, she will stop blocking them. And their force bond connection will remind her. And she would slowly drop her mask and become abot more serious about her feelings and also Ben. And that is when all the Rey's will become a one.

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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by thescavenger on Sat 20 Jan 2018 - 7:12

@SkyStar wrote:I think Rey's character has this potential to explore the shadow theory and to me it feels like it isn't done enough for audience to understand it. Rey is hiding with her mask of charm and positivity, but even while having her mask she is lonely. And to all the loneliness her positivity helps but doesn't really make her feel the happiness by herself. Does she even understand herself? She has repressed her trauma for so long, there are multiple Rey's like in the mirror scene. Maybe she does things because she thinks she needs to not because she wants it?

But I think it's great if there are some exploration with a character who hides behind a cheerful mask, because it's a real mechanism of coping. And in a real life not everyone sees past it and are suprised to discover how the person feels inside. "Oh, but he was so happy and joked all the time!" And it's important that Kylo said that she is not alone. Because Finn is a friend that can hang close, but. He doesn't know how Rey feels. Kylo is the first one who helped to not be ashamed of her sense of abandonment.

It still doesn't make sense how she was so cheerful after the throne scene, but at the same time it isn't even that easy to change you patterns of behavior. Its true for both Kylo and Rey. And I think Rey will start to to think about her feelings more, she will stop blocking them. And their force bond connection will remind her. And she would slowly drop her mask and become abot more serious about her feelings and also Ben. And that is when all the Rey's will become a one.
@SkyStar

I think Rey is really misunderstood, in all the ways that you've said. Like we've discussed many times before, her journey is very much a coming-of-age one and we see that especially in TLJ, emotionally and sexually. The GA tends to see her as a perfect heroine and almost a Mary Sue, simply because of her childlike positivity and wonder. But the world isn't that simple, and part of Rey's arc is confronting difficult realities and exploring complex emotions as a child becomes an adult. It almost reminds me of Inside Out funnily enough.

The great thing is that you can see that development in TLJ as well, and it's all due to her interaction with Kylo Ren. He makes her confront her own dark side (adult realities) rather seducing her to the dark side, and no one ever does that (not even Luke, who feeds her a very censored version of the Temple Fire truth at the beginning). At the start of the movie, her worldview was mostly black and white, and she says things thinking they're the right thing to say (e.g. "we need you to come back because Kylo Ren is strong with the Dark Side of the Force"). It felt very rehearsed and awkward, but that was the point of it. It is just so easy to hate the enemy.

The Force bond, however, gave her the chance to change her view of the world into a more wholesome way, not to mention how it also represents sexual awakening which parallels the complexities of young adulthood. The enemy isn't just the enemy anymore, and he's become a reflection of herself. He makes her confront truths that aren't easy, like how Luke the hero wasn't perfect, how Ben Solo was betrayed and became what he is, and even her own parentage that she's kept hidden all this time. By the end of the film, I think she has begun to confront her issues and think of them in more complex terms. That isn't to say her journey to adulthood is complete, but it is making a lot of progress. She begins to make her own decisions and come into her own adult identity by the end. 

(On the other hand, just to add, the similar can be said about Ben Solo and how Rey has confronted him with other truths in regards to his own coming-of-age development. So in a way, they were each other's agents of growth particularly in this film.)
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by rey09 on Sat 20 Jan 2018 - 7:30

@Lucina wrote:
@Saracene wrote:I don't know if I agree with the premise of the article that Rey's interest in Kylo is her main motivator from the start. But I do agree that, next to Rey's connection with Kylo, the rest of the things that supposedly motivate her are kinda weak and/or obscured. It's true that her connection with the Resistance is pretty flimsy and Luke even blatantly calls her out on it at the start of the film. Her force/Jedi journey is also kinda wishy-washy; she needs to be told by someone else how she fits into the bigger picture instead of deciding things for herself, she gets lessons from Luke on why there should not be any more Jedi but we've no clue as to what exactly she absorbed from them and what's her interest in the Jedi books about. Her lifting the rocks in the end is played as a significant moment, but apart from the external significance - that Luke is not the last Jedi - it doesn't really feel like any sort of culminating/breakthrough internal moment for Rey herself.

I kinda feel like the writers are struggling with Rey; her need for family and connection is obvious and relatable, but it's like there's also an understanding that these things alone can't motivate a strong female character in an action-adventure film about galaxy-sized stakes. So they try to fill in her story with the more heroic Resistance/force stuff, but it doesn't quite work IMO.
@Saracene

This makes me think of a video I saw a while ago on YouTube about how to write a compelling backstory for characters:



To summarize, the guy in the video argues that the best kind of backstories are the ones in which something bad happens to the main character and they blame themselves for it, because feelings of guilt and regret are crucial to character growth and pretty much force the character to change over the course of the story and overcome their inner demons.

This made me think of Rey’s backstory and how the addition of one small detail would have given Rey a pretty good motivator to learn about the force/become a Jedi: What if Rey was not just abandoned by her parents because they were horrible people but because they were afraid of her strong force powers? Imagine there was an incident when she was a child that threatened her life and she accidentally uses the force to protect herself and as a result harms other people with it. This would have also explained why Rey was so afraid of the force and rejects the lightsaber at first in TFA, because subconsciously she would know that these powers led to her parents abandoning her. Her character growth would then be about overcoming her fear and learning how to control her own powers and accepting it as a part of herself.

They could still reveal something like that in Episode IX but I doubt it. It would be too late to introduce such an element anyways...
@Lucina

This is exactly what I want from Rey but sadly we didn't get that. We don't ever see her sit down and reflect on everything. She's just always jumping from one mission to another. I know she had reflection moments with Kylo but I feel she also just needs her own alone time, that's very crucial in development. Like others have said, we don't know what's running through her mind, which is really annoying.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by Kessel on Sat 20 Jan 2018 - 12:31

@rey09 wrote:
@Lucina wrote:
@Saracene wrote:I don't know if I agree with the premise of the article that Rey's interest in Kylo is her main motivator from the start. But I do agree that, next to Rey's connection with Kylo, the rest of the things that supposedly motivate her are kinda weak and/or obscured. It's true that her connection with the Resistance is pretty flimsy and Luke even blatantly calls her out on it at the start of the film. Her force/Jedi journey is also kinda wishy-washy; she needs to be told by someone else how she fits into the bigger picture instead of deciding things for herself, she gets lessons from Luke on why there should not be any more Jedi but we've no clue as to what exactly she absorbed from them and what's her interest in the Jedi books about. Her lifting the rocks in the end is played as a significant moment, but apart from the external significance - that Luke is not the last Jedi - it doesn't really feel like any sort of culminating/breakthrough internal moment for Rey herself.

I kinda feel like the writers are struggling with Rey; her need for family and connection is obvious and relatable, but it's like there's also an understanding that these things alone can't motivate a strong female character in an action-adventure film about galaxy-sized stakes. So they try to fill in her story with the more heroic Resistance/force stuff, but it doesn't quite work IMO.
@Saracene

This makes me think of a video I saw a while ago on YouTube about how to write a compelling backstory for characters:



To summarize, the guy in the video argues that the best kind of backstories are the ones in which something bad happens to the main character and they blame themselves for it, because feelings of guilt and regret are crucial to character growth and pretty much force the character to change over the course of the story and overcome their inner demons.

This made me think of Rey’s backstory and how the addition of one small detail would have given Rey a pretty good motivator to learn about the force/become a Jedi: What if Rey was not just abandoned by her parents because they were horrible people but because they were afraid of her strong force powers? Imagine there was an incident when she was a child that threatened her life and she accidentally uses the force to protect herself and as a result harms other people with it. This would have also explained why Rey was so afraid of the force and rejects the lightsaber at first in TFA, because subconsciously she would know that these powers led to her parents abandoning her. Her character growth would then be about overcoming her fear and learning how to control her own powers and accepting it as a part of herself.

They could still reveal something like that in Episode IX but I doubt it. It would be too late to introduce such an element anyways...
@Lucina

This is exactly what I want from Rey but sadly we didn't get that. We don't ever see her sit down and reflect on everything. She's just always jumping from one mission to another. I know she had reflection moments with Kylo but I feel she also just needs her own alone time, that's very crucial in development. Like others have said, we don't know what's running through her mind, which is really annoying.
@rey09

I know, this is why I hope in Epsiode IX, Rey’s not just hanging with the Resistance 24/7, going from mission to mission.

I could see a scenario where Episode IX starts off with Rey seemingly fine and happy with the Resistance, but something triggers her thoughts on herself, Kylo, her purpose in everything, and she’s forced to reflect and deal with it all.

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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by twilekempire on Sat 20 Jan 2018 - 15:28

I've been thinking more about how Rey is depicted as having "too much" light. I mentioned previously the harmful "lightness" of a total lack of family connections vs. the harmful "heaviness" of Ben's excess of family legacy and how her "taking" some of that off him ("raw power" in the force, the legacy saber, mentorship by Luke, connections to Han and Leia, the Millennium Falcon) allows her relief from her total lightness and him relief from the heaviness crushing him. I also think this "too much light" idea applies to literal light and the way it defines the respective environments they're from: the ships Ben lives on are an underworld, dark and without natural or even warm light. But Rey is from a desert, places full of “too much” light. The light (and its heat) can kill you very easily, there’s so much of it. It’s blinding and, significantly to Rey’s position, it creates “mirages” that can mislead, like the “mirage” of her parents returning.

She’s so full of light she’s destroying her own life to hold onto a solely positive/bright image of them. Ben/her shadow and his “shade”/darkness is the thing that finally gives Rey the balancing darkness she needs to fully let go of that mirage.

She’s more vulnerable with him than she is with anyone else; she lets herself stop being relentlessly bright and positive. She lets herself rest in the shade a bit. And he is happy to make his shade her solace and comfort and accept her when she’s not a perfect, bright cinnamon roll.

For Ben’s part, when we meet him Snoke has upped his abuse to the point where he’s trying to kill the last embers of light within his “apprentice”/target. Rey’s excess of light stirs those embers to flame again; Ben’s darkness gives Rey permission to find some rest from having to constantly be the relentlessly bright “ray of sunshine.”

This would also connect to the wetness and rain/clouds of Ahch-To: Rey is only able to mature from child to woman once she's free of the arid environment of the desert, with too much light, and she can get in touch with her own moisture/darkness. She's like a plant that was dying from too much sunlight and not enough water; once she can find some shade and wetness she heals and sprouts new leaves.
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