Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by Guest on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 8:55 pm

This is a good read in relation to how TLJ connects to the animated Star Wars series in regards to the force. Pablo Hidalgo did say on Twitter that The Clones Wars especially, which Rian Johnson confirmed he had watched, was a good place to start for those who wanted to understand TLJ better. http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/connecting-the-star-wars-animated-series-to-the-last-jedi

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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by fuhry on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 8:57 am

KrazyForKylo wrote:This is a good read in relation to how TLJ connects to the animated Star Wars series in regards to the force. Pablo Hidalgo did say on Twitter that The Clones Wars especially, which Rian Johnson confirmed he had watched, was a good place to start for those who wanted to understand TLJ better. http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/connecting-the-star-wars-animated-series-to-the-last-jedi
@KrazyForKylo

This is awesome.

Please lord jeebus, give us Ahsoka Tano in episode IX.....
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by Gemlake on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 3:38 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@PalmettoBlue wrote:And all of this is why I think that balance is about Force users not rejecting major portions of their make-up. That was the whole point (which I suppose was too wordy or unclear) of my earlier post.
So Kylo has to accept both the Dark and the Light within himself, as well as Rey. And together, they make up the classic yin/yang - the delicate balance.
If you'll pardon the hyperbole, they complete each other.
@PalmettoBlue

This is how I see it, too.

Look at marriage as analogy...  In a healthy, supportive marriage, one partner helps the other when they're down... Usually, that means taking on more of the "load" of something.  And when things change, the partners switch off, with the other one offering support.

How I think this applies to Rey and Kylo is that he'll probably always be a bit dark, but Rey will help balance him out. Ideally, there's going to be an equilibrium where they're both a bit light and dark, but as one side increases in one of them, the opposing side will rise to meet it in the other. At least, this seemed to be what was being foreshadowed in Rey's lesson about "balance" where we saw the montage about life and death, etc.
@ISeeAnIsland
I think this was foreshadowed by Rian with the Prime Jedi design.  Of course, the panda represents the Last Jedi, in that Kylo was unredeemed, yet he still formed a bond with Rey.  But that dark/light dynamic didn't work.  The Prime Jedi, in contrast, has each side containing both light and dark.  The Art of the Last Jedi book shows that Rian went through several designs for the Prime Jedi and wanted to get the image just right.


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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by Gemlake on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 3:48 pm

KrazyForKylo wrote:
@rey09 wrote:


ETA - Pablo Hidalgo just recommended this take on The Last Jedi and it really does hit the nail on the head as far as what we’ve been discussing here goes https://www.avclub.com/this-is-not-going-to-go-the-way-you-think-the-last-jed-1821472840 This is why Ep IX is wide open in terms of how they approach the ending. Happy endings aren’t forever and they never were!
@KrazyForKylo
This is an excellent article.  The fans moan the loss of ROTJ's perfect ending, but you can't make a movie about how wonderful everything is.  The article says:  "Otherwise, what story is there to tell? Luke becomes even more the self-possessed, slightly New Age-y bore he was in Return Of The Jedi, dutifully passing on his wisdom to a new generation of Jedi trainees? Han and Leia’s marriage suffers the occasional strains, but mostly they’re happy in love?"  

That is exactly the story the fan boys wanted.  I remember when the plot of TFA leaked, and fans were up in arms about what JJ had done.  I was trying to figure out what the fans wanted instead.  So I read some prediction posts in the Jedi Council forum.  The plots all seemed to revolve around "Master Luke" training the new generation of Jedi, included Skywalkers and Solos.  Han and Leia visit the academy to see their children.  A big bad appears.  Luke wins the day.  Yawn.

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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 8:12 pm

@rey09 – well it was still a great find
@KrazyForKylo – thanks for sharing the fantastic article! I’ve been meaning to watch clone wars but so many seasons have seemed overwhelming time wise.
I’m going to head straight for the episodes the article suggested!
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by CienaRee on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 4:11 am

This is a really interesting discussion I'm not sure what the ST's definition of Balance will be but I'm thinking it will be similar to the one from Mulan for example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCm6W8s_wnI

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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by Acritiqua on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 9:30 am

Maybe the movie showed balance both when Rey and Kylo touch hands (Force theme) and when they fight the red guards together, perfectly in sync. It's after that the dream is dashed and to each of them it may seem like it was all an illusion. But that the Force theme played for them shows there was something true they found. Kylo was right that they should be together, but after Rey wouldn't go with him and tried to take the lightsaber, he must have thought he was wrong, that there was never anything meaningful there, she's just another person to abandon him... But if he can come to examine this after, that something true happened between them is inescapable. It just wasn't what he thought it was. He has to give up the dark side to see it.

In TFA, Lor San Tekka says that without the Jedi there can be no balance in the Force. This tells us the Star Wars idea of balance. The Jedi's purpose is to maintain the balance in the Force. When Rey and Kylo act together to do that, it is as though they are one. They may be disappointed in one another, but I hope they will both come to see that the part of this in which they were like one being was real. That was true. And it's worth keeping.

The Jedi weren't supposed to be light side warriors fighting dark side warriors. There wasn't supposed to be this polarization. The Jedi were supposed to be stewards of the Force and the balance. As Luke said, that energy doesn't belong to you. It is to be respected, not wielded for one's own purposes.

Seeing things this way, Kylo's redemption doesn't even matter because he doesn't need it. When he and Rey find balance together he is exactly as he should be, and he is whole.

And I can't believe that TLJ would show us this thing between Rey and Kylo that is real and true only to snatch it away in the next film for the more conventional story of Rey killing the evil Kylo because he's too evil to return.
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by MrsWindu on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 4:09 pm

Wasn’t sure where to put this but I thought as the Jedi temple mosaic is about ting and yang



Although it’s concept art it’s intersting to note for the bottom version
the rocks on either side are faceless because they have not chosen yet which face the viewer is to become


I’m wondering if that mosaic pool was to serve another purpose at some point
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by Guest on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 10:41 pm

@fuhry wrote:
KrazyForKylo wrote:This is a good read in relation to how TLJ connects to the animated Star Wars series in regards to the force. Pablo Hidalgo did say on Twitter that The Clones Wars especially, which Rian Johnson confirmed he had watched, was a good place to start for those who wanted to understand TLJ better. http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/connecting-the-star-wars-animated-series-to-the-last-jedi
@KrazyForKylo

This is awesome.

Please lord jeebus, give us Ahsoka Tano in episode IX.....
@fuhry

I would love to see Ahsoka in one of the movies. She’s one of my favourite characters!

@DeeBee wrote:@rey09 – well it was still a great find
@KrazyForKylo – thanks for sharing the fantastic article! I’ve been meaning to watch clone wars but so many seasons have seemed overwhelming time wise.
I’m going to head straight for the episodes the article suggested!
@DeeBee

You’re welcome Smile I really enjoyed The Clone Wars series, it made me like the prequels more too! The Mortis Arc in particular is fantastic - “Balance is found in the one who faces his guilt.” This seems particularly apt in light of Luke’s arc in TLJ.

There have been quite a few mentions of “the balance” in Rebels, and we’ve had dark and light working together to achieve certain goals with Ezra and Darth Maul. It took both of them to open the Jedi and Sith holocrons together, although they both got very different things from that experience.

Then there is the Bendu...

a massive creature that has an equally massive understanding of the Force. He’s available for sage advice and cryptic mysticism, but he doesn’t pick sides and get involved with the conflict. He's a genuinely neutral character, in tune with the Force above all else. Balanced, you could say.

"Perhaps it is the will of the Force that the Jedi and all your kind perish," said Bendu in a recent episode, while refusing to pick a side in the battle between the Empire and the Rebel Alliance. It seems like Bendu and Luke have learned similar lessons from the Force.

As far as I can see, outside of the Bendu, the notion of “the balance” has only been addressed thus far in Star Wars in relation to the Jedi. George Lucas likened the dark side to cancer and defined balance in the force as the removal of the toxicity of the dark side. Balance is restored by removing whatever caused it to go out of whack in the first place.

I haven’t seen season 4 of Rebels yet, but I’ve heard that at one point Kanan says to Ezra - “We are the balance, Ezra. We were meant to be Jedi so we can be here, now.”

It does seem like current Star Wars canon is going with the notion of balance as defined by George Lucas. Whether JJ will take it anywhere else remains to be seen but I don’t think he would do anything to contradict what’s been established in recent years.

Even that Journal of the Whills quote used in the TFA novelisation suggests the answer lies with the Jedi...

“First comes the day
Then comes the night.
After the darkness
Shines through the light.
The difference, they say,
Is only made right
By the resolving of the gray
Through refined Jedi sight.”

It seems to imply that the cycle of light and dark battling against each other will only be broken when the differences are resolved by refined Jedi wisdom. Luke and Yoda couldn’t do it in their lifetimes but maybe Rey and Kylo can find the balance in themselves and each other and then carry that wisdom forward to a new generation of Jedi.


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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by C.V on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 1:54 pm

i always saw the balance as a cycle, its not everlasting and doesnt remain constant, anakin did achieve balance but now it has been disrupted. as for light and darkness, the way i always saw it was that there is the force and the perversion of it or corruption if you will. i've never been into the idea of the dark side needing to be part of the force, that without it there is no balance, but it never made sense to me especially when people throw out the notion that you cant have too much light. what does that mean, you cant have too much good?, you need to balance it out with darkness? like bad things e.g pain, suffering, power, death..?? if the idea is that you need both dark and light then they would have to change or really explain why the dark side isnt really all that bad but then for me it just makes it watered down, the dark side is some serious sith. it works more internally as everyone has both light and darkness in them they just need to accept and acknowledge it without it consuming them.

also watching TLJ that cave rey goes to feels like a metaphor for the dark side, its tempting, it offers you something you want and when you go the other side you find the offer was hollow and your left with nothing but yourself also highlighting selfishness
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Discussion: The Balance of the Force

Post by DeeBee on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 5:18 pm

Hi Everyone!
I thought I'd get this thread created so we have a place for our collective thoughts on the balance of the force and what it all means.. [edited to add 1feb2018: this thread has since been merged with another thread..]

Now we have seen 8 of the 9 movies - what do you think it means for the force to have 'balance'?
If anyone is interested, I'm curious to dig a little deeper here.. I don't believe I have any answers.. but I'd like this thread to be a space to explore and throw out ideas..or questions Smile
How does the way balance and the force is portrayed in previous movies fit?
Can there be balance without both the light and the dark?
Or should there be no light or dark? only balance?
How are you viewing things at the moment?

I'll dig into things more as we discuss so I won't start this thread by sharing all my current thoughts.. [that could get a little scary Wink ]

I'll just say that for me, the vibe I'm getting his: it seems much of what we learned about the force from the Jedi in the PT and OT is turning out to be faulty thinking.. so there is a question of what knowledge to keep and what to throw away.
It seems the paradigm of:
Jedi = good =  light & Sith = evil = dark
is being shown to be too simplistic and not accurate.

Rey keeps talking about Kylo 'turning' - but what does that even mean?
What does it mean for someone from the dark side to be redeemed?
I look forward to discussing these ideas over the next 2 years! lol! Smile


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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by PalmettoBlue on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 5:29 pm

I just re-watched the Mortis Arc today as I was going through mounds of clothes (okay, not relevant, but hellish nonetheless.) I mention this because of this...
In the "scrolls" before the episodes, it says: "Balance is found in the one who faces his guilt." Another episode said: "Nothing ever really dies." That latter one gives me the heebee jeebees because Snoke, but that's for a different thread.
But for this thread, the former is particularly relevant.
Also, these three episodes really emphasize the fact that you don't have the light without the dark and vice versa. The key is to not to fall too deeply into the dark and become completely corrupted by it.
I think that's the thing they are going for in this whole trilogy: Balance is to avoid extremism, to find equilibrium within oneself...and above all - no one's ever really gone.
#savebensolo
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 6:14 pm

@PalmettoBlue wrote:I just re-watched the Mortis Arc today as I was going through mounds of clothes (okay, not relevant, but hellish nonetheless.) I mention this because of this...
In the "scrolls" before the episodes, it says: "Balance is found in the one who faces his guilt." Another episode said: "Nothing ever really dies." That latter one gives me the heebee jeebees because Snoke, but that's for a different thread.
But for this thread, the former is particularly relevant.
Also, these three episodes really emphasize the fact that you don't have the light without the dark and vice versa. The key is to not to fall too deeply into the dark and become completely corrupted by it.
I think that's the thing they are going for in this whole trilogy: Balance is to avoid extremism, to find equilibrium within oneself...and above all - no one's ever really gone.
#savebensolo
@PalmettoBlue

Whoooooo I have flagged that clone wars ep to watch! I'm going to aim to watch it and come back here to reply to you soon.
Thanks for the reminder PalmettoBlue. I don't have time to watch all clone wars, but I can at least watch the eps full of force/balance info!

edited to add: I finished watching the Mortis Arc of the clone wars.. there are three episodes that this article [url=http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/connecting-the-star-wars-animated-series-to-the-last-jedi[/url] suggests watching in season 3: episode 15 (overlords), episode 16 (altar of Mortis) and episode 17 (ghosts of Mortis).

The Father, Son and Daughter of Mortis are new to me! Phew.. intense!!

Over this three episode arc there is a big focus on knowing yourself... facing your demons/guilt.. saving the universe.. but also on choices and the future not being set. Soooo I'm not sure what conclusions I can draw from this! I'm not sure how much of this was symbolism and a vision.. or whether it actually took place?!

When the father says to his son 'You and I are tied together' - and then the father kills the son, and they both die???!!!! [gah noooooooo... please don't let this be the fate of Rey and Kylo!!!] Anyway.. Anakin brought balance to Mortis because the Father, the son and the daughter were all dead. lol. here's hoping that balance in IX will not be through similar means!!! lol.

Anyone know this content well and care to share? Smile


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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by thescavenger on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 6:30 pm

I've been having this conversation debate with my brother since TFA, but he insists that they have retconned the idea of 'balance' in the ST. So his line of thinking goes that in the PT and OT, the idea of balance meant the light or the good side whereas the Dark meant imbalance. But then he did also say that ST is trying to move towards the grey and the fact that there is such thing as a Light side of the Force and Dark side of the Force which are two opposing poles.

I'm not quite sure yet, personally, but what do you think?
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by snufkin on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 9:20 pm

It's a bit of a meta-theme, but the Balance between holding on to the past and looking towards the future is a be a big one for this film, this trilogy, and the franchise. Especially with Ben and Rey's arcs, but also the director's statement about learning to appreciate/make the best use of the past while not letting it rule you. Which um, again seems to be a big theme for these two characters. Rey learns that she may be nobody from nowhere, but that doesn't mean that she can't be the heroine of her own story and rise to help others/do great things. Ben finally achieves the status and power he believes (in part because of Luke and Snoke's influence as his Masters) that he's entitled to by his bloodline. Except he ends up lost and alone at the end, still very much feeling the tug of the 'lesser' side of his Bloodline, Han's. And very much without the support and understanding he found with Rey. Question will be both the balancing of the Light and the Dark with the balancing of the past and the present/future.

In terms of the Balance between the past and the future, that's also where the Canto Bight and kid with a broom part comes in. That the cycle starts over again with new FS individuals, such as a young stable hand or a young woman who was an orphan/indentured servant, but who was more than that. And the new trilogy they're talking about, with new characters, will likely be a furthering of this theme.
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 10:47 pm

hi all!
I've been digging into the force a little..  If I come across anything of interest I'll share.. but do please share anything you find too Smile

Here's an interesting GL quote related to the force.
source: https://www.flickeringmyth.com/2011/07/hot-rods-droids-george-lucas-profile/

“The overriding philosophy in Episode I – and in all the Star Wars movies for that matter, is the balance between good and evil. The Force itself breaks into two sides: the living Force and the greater, cosmic Force. The living Force makes you sensitive to other living things, makes you intuitive, and makes you able to read other people’s minds. But the greater Force has to do with destiny. In working with the Force, you can find your destiny and you can chose to follow it, or not.”

There is a philosophy of balance between good and evil - but does that mean balancing the force means there must be a balance between good and evil? I'm thinking this isn't necessarily the same thing.. but 'balance' is being used differently here in this quote.
What I find interesting is the two sides of the force mentioned by GL! and the talk of destiny and choosing to follow it or not.


Looking for credible sources...
I've found this blurb on the starwars database about the force priestesses (who live on the force planet):
"Dwelling on an unnamed planet in the heart of the galaxy, these five mysterious beings embodied the connection between the living Force present in lifeforms big and small, and the larger, timeless cosmic Force. Mutable in form, the Priestesses manifested as Serenity, Joy, Anger, Confusion, and Sadness. They tested Master Yoda on their homeworld, helping him attain a larger understanding of the Force and learn to preserve his identity after death." http://www.starwars.com/databank/force-priestesses
This seems to confirm the force as being made up of both the living force and the cosmic force.
Interesting..  No wonder this all feels so opaque Wink

Is balancing 'the force' referring to the living force? or the cosmic force? or both?! lol maybe it doesn't even matter Wink
As a thought experiment, I'm going to guess that if the cosmic force is 'timeless',  it is what is always working to bring the living force back into balance... so when discussing bringing balance - it is referring to the living force.
If there is the timeless force that is overseeing things (which has a 'will') this would be distinct from the force that is needing to be brought back into balance.  
Thus, it could be the cosmic force that is at work in Rey and Kylo's 'intertwined destinies'. I'm guessing it would be the cosmic force that either created their force bond, or ensured the force bond continued once Snoke was toast. lol.
What do you all think?

No pressure to dig into this.. I'm guessing over the next two years the appetite for digging deeper into things will fluctuate.. so if the mood strikes you - and you wish to explore the balance of the force- here is a spot to do so! Smile
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 11:44 pm

@thescavenger wrote:I've been having this conversation debate with my brother since TFA, but he insists that they have retconned the idea of 'balance' in the ST. So his line of thinking goes that in the PT and OT, the idea of balance meant the light or the good side whereas the Dark meant imbalance. But then he did also say that ST is trying to move towards the grey and the fact that there is such thing as a Light side of the Force and Dark side of the Force which are two opposing poles.

I'm not quite sure yet, personally, but what do you think?
@thescavenger

Oh for sure I'm not quite sure yet either. lol. and probably won't have put the puzzle together even after watching episode IX Wink
I resist the idea of viewing the idea of balance being retconned.
Instead, I view it as a story unfolding over the 9 episodes as a whole - and what is known about bringing balance over the course of the story changes.. the story itself is about figuring this out IMHO of course.
The unfolding story itself teaches us about what balance is and is not I think.
If we can look back on what we are told about the balance, we can test whether it is supported by the story that has unfolded, or if it is an error.. or if maybe it is unknowable at this point.  
Too much of the light was not balance. We were being told by the jedi that eliminating darkness was the goal but it doesn't seem to be what the force wanted or needed to be in balance if looking at the story overall..

In TLJ Yoda and Luke have seen that the Jedi order was flawed in it's thinking and understanding of balance..
This for me opens up the question of how they were flawed in their understanding of both the dark and the light sides of the force..

I'm trying to keep an open mind and just explore it. The story is still unfolding..  

At this point all I can feel confident in is that the force is always working to bring itself back into an equilibrium between both the dark and the light. The extremes of the Jedi order and the Sith brought about imbalances in the force over millenia.. and therefore the paradigm of extreme light being 'good' needs to be reconsidered.
I keep catching myself thinking that light = good.. and for peace to exist there can be no darkness - however, from how the story has unfolded and the force's need to balance dark and light - I'm thinking somehow, in a way I don't understand, the darkness is needed for there to be peace and balance. Mind bending..
This suggests darkness is not = to evil. Which makes sense- passion is not in itself a bad thing.. nor is anger or fear - there can be righteous anger, and fear is a basis for courage.. maybe darkness is only 'evil' when taken to extremes...

Okay. my head hurts. I'm off to give my brain a rest. bye!
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 11:47 pm

@snufkin wrote:It's a bit of a meta-theme, but the Balance between holding on to the past and looking towards the future is a be a big one for this film, this trilogy, and the franchise. Especially with Ben and Rey's arcs, but also the director's statement about learning to appreciate/make the best use of the past while not letting it rule you. Which um, again seems to be a big theme for these two characters. Rey learns that she may be nobody from nowhere, but that doesn't mean that she can't be the heroine of her own story and rise to help others/do great things. Ben finally achieves the status and power he believes (in part because of Luke and Snoke's influence as his Masters) that he's entitled to by his bloodline. Except he ends up lost and alone at the end, still very much feeling the tug of the 'lesser' side of his Bloodline, Han's. And very much without the support and understanding he found with Rey. Question will be both the balancing of the Light and the Dark with the balancing of the past and the present/future.

In terms of the Balance between the past and the future, that's also where the Canto Bight and kid with a broom part comes in. That the cycle starts over again with new FS individuals, such as a young stable hand or a young woman who was an orphan/indentured servant, but who was more than that. And the new trilogy they're talking about, with new characters, will likely be a furthering of this theme.
@snufkin

Great catch snufkin! 'Balance' as a general theme is pervasive it's true.. even if not related directly to the balancing of the force.
Heading into TLJ I thought maybe balance was going to be no force users in future.. but given broom boy and Rey's mission to reform and grow the jedi- this seems to not be where the future of the franchise is headed...
There will be force users.. but different.. ?
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by snufkin on Sat 06 Jan 2018, 12:25 am

@DeeBee - I think it's meant to be similar to the theme of one of my favorite novels, Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell, where magic has been absent from the world for 200 years. And even then it's been the purview of people in the highest echelons of that society. But the course of the novel is about how it starts coming back and is a more wild, natural, and democratic force (pun intended) which all different members of society have access to. That seems to be the point going forward, both with Luke's line about thinking that ending the Jedi means that the Force goes away is nonsense. And we see it with Rey (and they have to hit the audience over the head with "you have no place in this story," which is the story of how in the past it was reserved for a privileged few) and the kid with the broom.

Also in terms of Balance, between the past/legacy and the present, that's something the director has stressed over and over again for Ben/Kylo
One of the more interesting for me was Kylo Ren, especially his notion of moving forward cutting off his past. That’s something that all of us can relate to. As you get older you realize that behavior might feel appealing and cathartic, but if you think that’s progressing—by throwing away what came before—you’re probably fooling yourself. The past is there, and it’s always going to be there. That’s the lesson.
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by PalmettoBlue on Sat 06 Jan 2018, 6:14 am

One of the things they say straight out in the Mortis Arc is that there is no dark without the light and no light without the dark. That’s why I think Luke was mistaken when he says that there was balance after the Battle of Endor.
It was also confirmed that Anakin was indeed the Chosen One, so there’s that.
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Sun 07 Jan 2018, 8:24 pm

@PalmettoBlue wrote:One of the things they say straight out in the Mortis Arc is that there is no dark without the light and no light without the dark. That’s why I think Luke was mistaken when he says that there was balance after the Battle of Endor.
It was also confirmed that Anakin was indeed the Chosen One, so there’s that.
@PalmettoBlue

Yes!!! that whole idea of just pursuing the light seems faulty!

So I find it curious when we hear Rey talking of turning Kylo back - I find it curious.. what does she have in mind?
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Sun 07 Jan 2018, 8:42 pm

I'll include here the dialogue I transcribed from Rey's first lesson with Luke about the force and balance (not beta'd but fairly confident Wink ):
R: Master Skywalker, we need you to bring the Jedi back because Kylo Ren is strong in the dark side of the force. Without the Jedi we won’t stand a chance against him.
L: what do you know about the force?
R: it’s a power that Jedi have that lets them control people and... make things... float.
L: Impressive. Every word in that sentence is wrong.
Lesson 1! Sit here, legs crossed, (Rey sits). The force is not a power that you have. It’s not about lifting rocks. It’s the energy between all things. A tension, a balance that binds the universe together.
R: Okay. But.. what is it?
L: Close your eyes. Breathe. Now. Reach out.
(she reaches out physically.. and Luke teases her with the plant..)
R: Oh I feel something!!
L: oh it’s really strong here!!
R: ow!! You meant reach out like…..I’ll try again.
L: Breathe. Just breathe. Reach out with your feelings. What do you see?
R: The island, life, death and decay and it feeds new life. Warm, cold. Peace. Violence.
L: And between it all…
R: Balance. Energy. A force.
L: And inside you?
R: Inside me, that same force.
L: and this is the lesson. That force does not belong to the Jedi. To say if the Jedi die the light dies is vanity, can you feel that?
R: there’s something else. Beneath the island. A place. A dark place.
L: Balance. Powerful light. Powerful darkness.
R: it’s cold.
R: it’s calling me!
L: Resist it Rey! Rey! Reeeeeeyyyy!!!!
(She snaps out of it. Gasping.)
L: you went straight to the dark.
R: it was trying to show me something.
L: it offered you something you needed. You didn’t even try to stop yourself.
R: I didn’t see you. Nothing from you. You’ve closed yourself off from the force. Of course you have.
L: I’ve seen this raw strength only once before, in Ben Solo. It didn’t scare me enough then, it does now.
-scene ends-

If the darkness was offering her something she needed - why did she need to try and stop herself?
Interesting that Rey's description of balance includes both peace and violence. Hmm..
I remember the visual with it was waves crashing over some porg eggs or something..
Was the visual with peace a happy porg family all huddled together happily? I can't remember..

How does this peace and violence fit in with wars in the galaxy?
I wonder if we can't take a direct 1-1 comparison between this peace and violence and peace and war in the galaxy..

Anyway - aside from that.. Luke seems to confirm he sees balance as the equal existence of light and dark. I think. lol.
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 07 Jan 2018, 10:35 pm

@DeeBee wrote:I'll include here the dialogue I transcribed from Rey's first lesson with Luke about the force and balance (not beta'd but fairly confident Wink ):
R: Master Skywalker, we need you to bring the Jedi back because Kylo Ren is strong in the dark side of the force. Without the Jedi we won’t stand a chance against him.
L: what do you know about the force?
R: it’s a power that Jedi have that lets them control people and... make things... float.
L: Impressive. Every word in that sentence is wrong.
Lesson 1! Sit here, legs crossed, (Rey sits). The force is not a power that you have. It’s not about lifting rocks. It’s the energy between all things. A tension, a balance that binds the universe together.
R: Okay. But.. what is it?
L: Close your eyes. Breathe. Now. Reach out.
(she reaches out physically.. and Luke teases her with the plant..)
R: Oh I feel something!!
L: oh it’s really strong here!!
R: ow!! You meant reach out like…..I’ll try again.
L: Breathe. Just breathe. Reach out with your feelings. What do you see?
R: The island, life, death and decay and it feeds new life. Warm, cold. Peace. Violence.
L: And between it all…
R: Balance. Energy. A force.
L: And inside you?
R: Inside me, that same force.
L: and this is the lesson. That force does not belong to the Jedi. To say if the Jedi die the light dies is vanity, can you feel that?
R: there’s something else. Beneath the island. A place. A dark place.
L: Balance. Powerful light. Powerful darkness.
R: it’s cold.
R: it’s calling me!
L: Resist it Rey! Rey! Reeeeeeyyyy!!!!
(She snaps out of it. Gasping.)
L: you went straight to the dark.
R: it was trying to show me something.
L: it offered you something you needed. You didn’t even try to stop yourself.
R: I didn’t see you. Nothing from you. You’ve closed yourself off from the force. Of course you have.
L: I’ve seen this raw strength only once before, in Ben Solo. It didn’t scare me enough then, it does now.
-scene ends-

If the darkness was offering her something she needed - why did she need to try and stop herself?
Interesting that Rey's description of balance includes both peace and violence. Hmm..
I remember the visual with it was waves crashing over some porg eggs or something..
Was the visual with peace a happy porg family all huddled together happily? I can't remember..

How does this peace and violence fit in with wars in the galaxy?
I wonder if we can't take a direct 1-1 comparison between this peace and violence and peace and war in the galaxy..

Anyway - aside from that.. Luke seems to confirm he sees balance as the equal existence of light and dark. I think. lol.
@DeeBee

And interesting in that "showing her something she needed"... It shows her endless copies of herself...and a shadow of Ben.
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Sun 07 Jan 2018, 11:24 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:

And interesting in that "showing her something she needed"... It shows her endless copies of herself...and a shadow of Ben.
@ISeeAnIsland

Warm fuzzies right there ISeeAnIsland ! Smile Yep I thought the shadow hinted at Ben too!

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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Tue 09 Jan 2018, 12:09 am

This Balance thing continues to fester for me Wink
Is Balance something that is within individuals or universe wide? or both?

I'm thinking balance can't be fully dark Kylo and fully light Rey balancing each other. that sort of thing would just perpetuate the whole Jedi/Sith extremes. Maybe Kylo needs to turn back to the light - in terms of letting in more light.. but not fully extinguishing the dark either. Maybe this would be 'turning'? Although the language in TLJ is the same as previous films, the goal is to return to balance - not just return to the light?
maybe Rey needs to let in more dark - more passion and emotions.. but also retain the light. But then, she is not well trained in the Jedi ways at this point so she is probably naturally quite well balanced..

I'm also thinking however, that balance is likely not dependent on Kylo and Rey each being internally balanced. As this would be something that would change moment to moment. Balance would be the ideal - the default they would constantly return to if they are to live with balance.

Rey's new reformed Jedi need to incorporate the light and the dark - Gee if only she had someone she knew who had been like you know. umm trained in like um both the Light and the Dark who could support her in this quest of hers. Oh dear. where oh where could she find someone like that?! haaaaa

The whole throne room sequence seems to illustrate what Balance can be - when the dark and the light work together united. And it was when experiencing this balance that Kylo felt no internal conflict. This has something to do with the answers here, but I also think we don't know enough yet. So I don't expect to be able to form definitive answers!

I keep thinking of the time before the Jedi and Sith split.. anyone knowledgeable about this stuff? Me no. I'm a real beginner here! but I'd be interested in learning more about it.. the canon stuff.
I've seen a holocron said the Jedi and Sith were once 'brothers' before the hundred year darkness in a comic I  came across  - [I love the Jedi relics idea and was reading about Grakkus the Hutt - there is even a line about Luke being the Last Jedi.. whoooo]

Also, Lor San Tekka, who studied both the dark and the light sides and knew a thing or two, said that both sides are 'in many ways the same' [see on the next page my comment where I've shared this comic strip if you are interested..]

I can't shake the thought in the back of my mind that somehow Snoke was aware of balance also.. but not sure what to do with him and lol we may not need to think about him anymore anyway. haaaa.. I'll wait till I hear news that Andy Serkis is in IX again or something before I truly give myself a brain strain. TFA visual dictionary says about Kylo: "The Supreme Leader believes Ren to be the ideal embodiment of the Force, a focal point of both light and dark side ability." - maybe Snoke was right.. but he had nefarious plans..

Anyway, getting back to the internal/external balance thought - having some kind of external relic -like the Kazerath Device [see next page for info if you are interested..] that needs to be operated by both the light and the darkness together seems a pretty simple way to illustrate the balance being achieved in the living force throughout the galaxy. Very significant as who could have guessed there would ever be a time or place that a Jedi and Sith would work together to operate something and bring about balance?

Plus, the internal balance of force users will be better placed to be maintained once the living force is balanced..
If the Kazerath is a red herring, I can certainly see some other kind of holy site or relic having a role to play.
Okay enough rambles..
Am I making any sense at all here? lol! Smile


Last edited by DeeBee on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 4:50 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : updated where to find comic)
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