Knights of Ren

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Re: Knights of Ren

Post by panki on Wed 25 May - 11:24

I feel the characters in armor in Rey's force vision are actually bounty hunters (an idea first mentioned by @Darth Dingbat). They still could be the KOR in addition to being bounty hunters who are either accompanying Kylo on his mission to Ach-to or have been sent by Snoke.

Here are the action figures of the characters in the force vision (the visibility in the force vision is too low to see the details of their attire and weaponry).



Now here is an image of Vader's bounty hunters from ESB...



And finally a few of the Clone Wars Era Bounty Hunters...........



A lot of the weapons and costumes of the bounty hunters are similar to the ones being worn by the so-called KOR....could there be another set of characters who are the actual KOR?

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Re: Knights of Ren

Post by Darth Dingbat on Wed 25 May - 13:05

@panki: Correct me if I'm wrong, but those action figures aren't in any way official, are they?

If this pic doesn't show up completely, please open it in another window, as it's quite big:



What I've found strange about these knights all along is that they don't have Kylo's "Mediaeval" vibe, except perhaps the guy with the hood and the axe, who's reminiscent of an executioner. And the guy on the right seems to have a pretty primitive metal helmet that doesn't even cover his (non-human) chin. But the other knights are quite modern-looking. The one on the left even appears to have a cybernetic arm that's some kind of a blaster, right?

They come across less as knights and more as a bunch of assorted criminals (which is why I, like you, have theorised about the KOR having possible links to what used to be the Shadow Collective).
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Re: Knights of Ren

Post by panki on Wed 25 May - 14:20

@Darth Dingbat wrote:@panki: Correct me if I'm wrong, but those action figures aren't in any way official, are they?

If this pic doesn't show up completely, please open it in another window, as it's quite big:



What I've found strange about these knights all along is that they don't have Kylo's "Mediaeval" vibe, except perhaps the guy with the hood and the axe, who's reminiscent of an executioner. And the guy on the right seems to have a pretty primitive metal helmet that doesn't even cover his (non-human) chin. But the other knights are quite modern-looking. The one on the left even appears to have a cybernetic arm that's some kind of a blaster, right?

They come across less as knights and more as a bunch of assorted criminals (which is why I, like you, have theorised about the KOR having possible links to what used to be the Shadow Collective).
@Darth Dingbat

That is my point....I couldn't find any official KOR action figures but I could find official action figures of characters that barely appeared in the movie or didn't even appear in the deleted scenes (constable Zuivo, the Crimson Corsair etc)...this makes me think that they're not the KOR after all and it is a deliberate mislead.

They could be part of the Shadow Collective but the group ceased to exist when the Hutts betrayed them, leaving only the Mandalorian Super Comandos....now they could still be a revival of the Shadow Collective but even bounty hunters belonged to the original Shadow Collective so it is possible that at least some of them are bounty hunters.

Now why I feel they are bounty hunters is because Vader hired bounty hunters to pursue the Millennium Falcon in ESB....so this could be a version of the same event....though in this case Snoke might have sent them along with Kylo.


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Re: Knights of Ren

Post by Darth Dingbat on Wed 25 May - 15:11

@panki: Sorry, I misunderstood you slightly. I blame it on feeling sleepy after dinner Wink

Yes, I agree with you. Though it would be quite hilarious if my dream turned out to be accurate Laughing But considering how many red herrings there are in TFA, and how difficult that Forceback is to interpret, I think it's at least possible that the guys-who-everybody-assumed-to-be-the-KOR aren't in fact the KOR at all.

If they're bounty hunters, they might come along with Kylo, but then... why would Kylo need a group of bounty hunters if he has an order of knights at his command? Those recent spoilers described black-clad knights in Mediaeval-style helmets arriving with Kylo, and that sounds quite different from these guys. Though whoever reported that was probably observing from afar, so that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

In fact, who and what are the Knights of Ren, really? People tend to assume they're just Kylo's band of thugs, but I wonder if we're in for a surprise there...

I still wonder about the black sashes worn by some of the men on the Dubrovnik set, like the man in the speeder:



I don't know if the sash has any particular meaning within the context of the film, but in our world a sash like that is associated with knightly regalia. Of high-ranking knights, specifically. Though it might just be a visual touch to emphasise the aristocratic vibes of the Dubrovnik planet, I find it interesting to ponder if the black sash might signify a bigger order of dark knights that doesn't just consist of armed thugs wiping out villages.
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Re: Knights of Ren

Post by panki on Wed 25 May - 22:14

@Darth Dingbat

It would be amazing if your dream turns out to be accurate!!!! Our forum would have its own spoiler prophetess! Cool

You've raised a very good point regarding the KOR- why would Kylo bring a band of bounty hunters with him when he is the master of an order of knights.....I need to think about this a little more.

One possibility is that the KOR are FS people only involved in relic hunting for Snoke (but I'm not a fan of this theory)

Another is that maybe Luke didn't create a school but an order of knights i.e the KOR (the word 'Ren' has such positive meanings that I wonder why this name would be used for a band of thugs- SW places a lot of importance on names) and they order turned against Luke?

I have this feeling that the origins of the KOR might lie in the planet Gatalenta (Bloodline) since the jedi order had a strong presence there from ancient times...and Luke spent time there.....Tai-Lin Garr mentions that FS runs in certain bloodlines....so maybe people are admitted in this order based on their bloodline...again like those secret societies where admittance is based on family and introduction?
Speaking of secret societies- I love your idea of the guys in sashes in Dubrovnik belonging to the KOR!

I also have another really crazy thought- what if BDT is playing Boba Fett or some other bounty hunter? (There have been rumors in the past that he plays a bounty hunter and associated novels have hinted that Boba has escaped from the sarlac pit...and in the EU, Boba ages very slowly) Snoke could have sent these thugs with Kylo because he still doesn't trust him around Rey ("You have compassion for her")

Now my head is full of ideas....I need to organise them and look for some proof before I write more Razz


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Re: Knights of Ren

Post by SanghaRen on Wed 25 May - 23:02

You are both right, @panki and @Darth Dingbat, they don't look very knightly in the picture from the force back. Like really not. I never noticed that. However, I am 90% sure that Pablo said that this moment shows KR and the KOR doing villainy stuff. I tried to find this tweet again, but no success so far. Did I dream it?

I like the idea of a secret society, but I am wondering how sect-like it might become. The relic hunting sounds a bit lighter to me and more SW movie material. I guess, it's because many movies depict secret societies with strange rites involving sometimes sacrifices. I am a bit wary of seeing this in a SW movie. In a comic book, yeah, but not in a movie. Maybe I have the wrong image in my head.
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Re: Knights of Ren

Post by SanghaRen on Wed 25 May - 23:26

It's not the one I was looking for, but it kind of confirms that these are the Knights and also that on the paper there were dead bodies of the clan they wiped out. Doesn't mean we don't get a twist since the force back is not supposed to be 100% reliable.

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Re: Knights of Ren

Post by panki on Thu 26 May - 3:14

@SanghaRen

Thanks for sharing the tweet..... Smile

"on paper, he was one of the dead warriors that litter the ground. The leader of this group the Knights wiped out."

bounce bounce bounce bounce study

OMG.... there is another way those words could be interpreted..... there are actually two groups in the scene- clan leader (and his group of dead warriors) and the KOR.....he seems to differentiate between the clan and the knights.

Bounty hunters in the SW universe form clans/houses....for example, we have Clan Fett whose flag is outside Maz's castle.



So the KOR might be a completely different group of people.....maybe they're the other group of guys in armor on the island? The FO might have got bounty hunters to track the Millennium Falcon like they did in ESB or just accompanied Kylo...but the actual KOR could have landed up later and killed the clan members?

I still hope they are some secret society and the good/neutral guys and not part of the FO....maybe linked to the Elder Houses or something on those lines.

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Re: Knights of Ren

Post by snufkin on Thu 26 May - 4:15

I got all excited because Seven Samurai was mentioned and they're not bad guys, just Ronin. But who knows, that may have been a cool idea that got scrapped for the sake of fitting in the main storylines.



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Re: Knights of Ren

Post by SanghaRen on Thu 26 May - 7:37

@panki wrote:@SanghaRen

Thanks for sharing the tweet..... Smile

"on paper, he was one of the dead warriors that litter the ground. The leader of this group the Knights wiped out."

bounce bounce bounce bounce study

OMG.... there is another way those words could be interpreted..... there are actually two groups in the scene- clan leader (and his group of dead warriors) and the KOR.....he seems to differentiate between the clan and the knights.

Bounty hunters in the SW universe form clans/houses....for example, we have Clan Fett whose flag is outside Maz's castle.



So the KOR might be a completely different group of people.....maybe they're the other group of guys in armor on the island? The FO might have got bounty hunters to track the Millennium Falcon like they did in ESB or just accompanied Kylo...but the actual KOR could have landed up later and killed the clan members?

I still hope they are some secret society and the good/neutral guys and not part of the FO....maybe linked to the Elder Houses or something on those lines.
@panki

So your idea is that this is a clan of bounty hunters and the KOR comes to clean up to ensure that no one will go talking about the island. It's getting dark... Smile My only issue is that it's a lot of killing if the KOR kills the bounty hunters and then the KOR gets killed by Luke. It sounds like an assassin movie where everyone tries to kill everyone. Still, now that I fully acknowledged the way these guys surrounding Kylo look and realized that it contradicts my very knightly idea, it bugs me. Why call them knights? They don't even have a dress code! Like, honestly, knights have to have a dress code so your idea makes indeed more sense.
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Re: Knights of Ren

Post by panki on Thu 26 May - 7:44

@SanghaRen wrote:
@panki wrote:@SanghaRen

Thanks for sharing the tweet..... Smile

"on paper, he was one of the dead warriors that litter the ground. The leader of this group the Knights wiped out."

bounce bounce bounce bounce study

OMG.... there is another way those words could be interpreted..... there are actually two groups in the scene- clan leader (and his group of dead warriors) and the KOR.....he seems to differentiate between the clan and the knights.

Bounty hunters in the SW universe form clans/houses....for example, we have Clan Fett whose flag is outside Maz's castle.



So the KOR might be a completely different group of people.....maybe they're the other group of guys in armor on the island? The FO might have got bounty hunters to track the Millennium Falcon like they did in ESB or just accompanied Kylo...but the actual KOR could have landed up later and killed the clan members?

I still hope they are some secret society and the good/neutral guys and not part of the FO....maybe linked to the Elder Houses or something on those lines.
@panki

So your idea is that this is a clan of bounty hunters and the KOR comes to clean up to ensure that no one will go talking about the island. It's getting dark... Smile My only issue is that it's a lot of killing if the KOR kills the bounty hunters and then the KOR gets killed by Luke. It sounds like an assassin movie where everyone tries to kill everyone. Still, now that I fully acknowledged the way these guys surrounding Kylo look and realized that it contradicts my very knightly idea, it bugs me. Why call them knights? They don't even have a dress code! Like, honestly, knights have to have a dress code so your idea makes indeed more sense.
@SanghaRen

I'm thinking only one set of the armored people are the actual bad guys.....if the KOR are good/neutral, then the bounty hunters are bad or vice versa.....the people who saw the scene being filmed assumed the people Luke killed were the KOR...but what if they're the bounty hunters and Luke is a KOR.....he is a jedi knight after all.... then Kylo has killed salad bowl.....and Luke has killed the remaining characters....so technically, on paper, the KOR (2 in number) killed the clan warriors..... Razz (I'm taking a very very wild guess here)

[quote="snufkin"]I got all excited because Seven Samurai was mentioned and they're not bad guys, just Ronin. But who knows, that may have been a cool idea that got scrapped for the sake of fitting in the main storylines.
@snufkin

Bounty hunters are some of the coolest characters in the SW universe......now trying to look at parallels between this force vision and the PT/OT-

In the PT/clone wars time period, a group of bounty hunters led by Ventress tried to kill Count Dooku but failed.....in this situation, they were not good guys since they took the bounty for money...but they were also depicted as honorable people, particularly a teenage Boba Fett.

In the OT time period, a group of bounty hunters were hired by Vader to pursue the OT3 and succeeded in capturing Han, Leia and Chewie....here it was again all about the money they would receive from Vader (and for Han's capture by Jabba in a now adult Boba Fett's case) so they're not good guys.

I'm not sure what path they will take in the ST..... confused


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Re: Knights of Ren

Post by snufkin on Thu 26 May - 15:50

@panki - too bad there's no way to change the software on here so that you're identified as the Historian (same way @vaderito is the Archivist)! You're probably right, just that the SS reference reminded me of that story, where they end up defending a group of underdogs. So I had hoped that would be the role of KoR, if Ren goes Ronin and teamed up with Rey.
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Re: Knights of Ren

Post by panki on Thu 26 May - 16:14

@snufkin wrote:@panki - too bad there's no way to change the software on here so that you're identified as the Historian (same way @vaderito is the Archivist)! You're probably right, just that the SS reference reminded me of that story, where they end up defending a group of underdogs. So I had hoped that would be the role of KoR, if Ren goes Ronin and teamed up with Rey.
@snufkin

I don't mind a scenario where the KOR are powerful and rich bad guys secretly financing the FO and the bounty hunters are the ones with honor, deciding to help Kylo and Rey escape the FO....even that would be an exciting story. Very Happy

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Re: Knights of Ren

Post by panki on Thu 26 May - 16:54

@vaderito wrote:
@panki wrote:
@snufkin wrote:@panki - too bad there's no way to change the software on here so that you're identified as the Historian (same way @vaderito is the Archivist)! You're probably right, just that the SS reference reminded me of that story, where they end up defending a group of underdogs. So I had hoped that would be the role of KoR, if Ren goes Ronin and teamed up with Rey.
@snufkin

I don't mind a scenario where the KOR are powerful and rich bad guys secretly financing the FO and the bounty hunters are the ones with honor, deciding to help Kylo and Rey escape the FO....even that would be an exciting story. Very Happy
@panki

KoR are just glorified action figures. I don't think we'll ever get any background on them in the movie. They are cannon fodder in cool armor and that's it.
@vaderito

I thought so too....but the more I look at it...I think it is a deliberate misdirection and we'll get a big surprise in episode 8.....the characters Luke mowed down so easily are bounty hunters...it is a repeat of how Count Dooku mowed down the group of bounty hunters who came to kill him in Dark Disciple.....the KOR are some other group entirely....

Either that, or Snoke is shortchanging Kylo in a bad way and making him master of a rag tag bunch of thugs ......I hope Kylo isn't that foolish Razz

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Re: Knights of Ren

Post by panki on Thu 26 May - 17:05

@vaderito wrote:it's interesting that there are 6 death troopers in Rogue One (black armor Storm Troopers) and 6 KoR.
@vaderito

But the concept art never called those 7 characters the knights of ren....they were called the 'seven light' so they could be any group of warriors... I didn't know there were only 6 death troopers....has it been officially announced?





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Re: Knights of Ren

Post by Darth Dingbat on Thu 26 May - 17:56

@panki, I have a lot to say on the subject of secret societies and the like... but not today Very Happy

One thing is interesting re: what you said about bloodlines. Crusader orders of the Middle Ages were very much about bloodlines. Or at least the Knights of St John (Hospitallers) were; the Templars were a bit before my time. Hospitaller knights had to be able to proof several generations of gentle or noble birth before they could be accepted to the order, and there were families that were very much crusader families, with family members belonging to the order or otherwise associated with the order (as financers, etc.) generation after generation. In some ways they really were a secret influencer network with these families helping each other out in matters that had nothing to do with the crusades, but likely not as influential as conspiracy theories would have you believe.
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Re: Knights of Ren

Post by snufkin on Thu 26 May - 18:18

@vaderito - the Criterion Collection clip is set to autoplay so I just deleted it from my post (but I think it's quoted in @panki's response as well).

Yeah I'd love if it turned out to be a bunch scruffy underdogs teaming up a la Kurosawa's group. Or if the fancy pants creepy dudes with the sashes were like the Nazi relic hunters from RotLA (also written by Kasden). Or something to that effect when the initial showdown happens on Ache-Too

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Re: Knights of Ren

Post by Darth Dingbat on Thu 26 May - 18:22

Don't lose heart, @vaderito. Spoilers might be BS. Or Salad Bowl might be some unexpected moment. We know nothing yet.
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Re: Knights of Ren

Post by snufkin on Thu 26 May - 19:20

@Darth Dingbat wrote:Don't lose heart, @vaderito. Spoilers might be BS. Or Salad Bowl might be some unexpected moment. We know nothing yet.

Salad Bowl Ren may still get tossed. You were dead on with figuring out the basic meaning of the vision. So Salad Bowl means something significant in his future, even if it's the beginning of being marooned with her on Ache-Too. Or that without her presence, Luke would've probably just outright killed him if it were just the two of them.
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Re: Knights of Ren

Post by snufkin on Thu 26 May - 19:49

@vaderito they put a ton of detail and action (and misdirection w/the rocks) in that part to make you wonder how it's signficant. If not going for Salad Bowl as in "homie don't touch my bae," then what? And the breaking the 4th wall body language of walking towards her is out of character w/out the clenched hands, not as aggressive.
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