The Last Jedi General Discussion

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by giaciak2 on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 2:06 am

@tukicarreno wrote:I am so happy the Reylo ship continues to be #1 after two months! TLJ really made it a phenomenom! Smile Wink  Now all we need is for JJ to bring it home the right way! So here's hoping! *prayer circle* flower I love you
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Very good! A lot of people love reylo!
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Tex on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 1:01 pm

I think I'm a little late to the party on this, but I just noticed that Steven Spielberg is remaking West Side Story. Apparently, it was announced at the end of January. My first reaction is, Oh, well to bad Rian Johnson beat him to the punch. Laughing Needles to say I think we can all agree that the forum collectively called this. We knew that once Reylo was out in the open Studios would take notice and want to grab onto the star-crossed lovers story line. I'm curious to see what other remakes/films we'll get.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Armadeus on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 8:05 pm

EDITED: Just realised it's been posted elsewhere Very Happy


Last edited by Armadeus on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 8:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Birdwoman on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 8:12 pm

@Tex
I did not know Spielberg is directing a remake of West Side Story. Please, Please, Please let him pick people who can sing the roles. Not just famous people with mediocre voices. This musical requires a very trained voice....I have learned several songs and duets from this musical and it requires decent classical training. If they won't do that....there is always dubbing.

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by SoloSideCousin on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 8:31 pm

@Birdwoman wrote:@Tex
I did not know Spielberg is directing a remake of West Side Story. Please, Please, Please let him pick people who can sing the roles. Not just famous people with mediocre voices. This musical requires a very trained voice....I have learned several songs and duets from this musical and it requires decent classical training. If they won't do that....there is always dubbing.
@Birdwoman

Yeah, that LaLaLand singing was really, really rough, except for John Legend ... ya know, a real singer.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by special_cases on Wed 07 Feb 2018, 6:52 am

I was reading TVTropes today and decided to check out TLJ lol

If I Can't Have You...: In The Last Jedi. After Rey rejects his offer to join him in leading the First Order, he goes from trying to bond with her to telling Luke that he'll kill her himself. That said, the next time he sees her through the Force Bond, he just stares at her calmly and with a conflicted expression on his face, suggesting he might not really have meant it.

Foe Romance Subtext: To such an extent that it can be considered straight up text. This film takes the latent sexual tension already present between Kylo Ren and Rey and cranks it Up to 11 to the point where it's not even subtle anymore.
They spend a good chunk of the movie confiding in each other via Force bond.
They exchange many Held Gazes and Rey at one point is Distracted by the Sexy when she sees Kylo shirtless.
They stare into each other's eyes and touch hands in a very intimate scene (complete with romantic music), which Luke interrupts.
Rey takes to empathising with him, even calling him Ben, and tries to repeatedly convince him to make a Heel–Face Turn.
Kylo kills Snoke after seeing him torture Rey and they both team up and kill the Praetorian Guards together.
He pleads with her to join him with phrasing that evokes a marriage proposal.

Foe Romance Subtext Kylo Star Wars: The Last Jedi turns up the subtext between Kylo and Rey from The Force Awakens to full-blown text. Connected by a Psychic Link they initially treat with hostility, they slowly begin to warm up, bond and empathize with each other over their mutual loneliness and sense of loss in the galaxy. Rey gets flustered when she accidentally sees him shirtless, the pair of them have several long held gazes, actually hold hands at one point, and he straight-up asks her to rule the galaxy by his side when he usurps his master.

Hidden Depths Kylo 1. For all his immaturity in regards to handling most situations, Kylo Ren shows in The Last Jedi that he has enough wisdom to understand the limitations of ideologies that both the Jedi and the Sith stuck by, something even Yoda seemed to only really grasp well after his own passing. Granted, Kylo Ren's answer to going beyond those ideologies and not be blinded by either is to just burn everything down, but credit where due, most wouldn't suspect someone that mentally and spiritually fractured to reach that kind of conclusion.

2. His reluctance to kill his mother, to the point of actively choosing not to fire at her and his interactions with Rey via their Force bond also suggest he’s not completely devoid of empathy and can even be kind when he wants to. A notable example is willingly listening to Rey tearfully pouring out her heart to him over her feelings of disappointment and isolation, and then reassuring her that she’s “not alone”. Of course, this is usually only when no one else is looking.


Innocently Insensitive: Kylo is no innocent, but when he tells Rey that her parents were nobodies who didn't care about her and who died meaningless deaths, he's not trying to be cruel. In fact, he's genuinely trying to be kind; as he says, Rey might have meant nothing to her parents, but she definitely means something to him.

Ship Tease Kylo: With Rey, in spades from The Last Jedi. From their Force Bond to their long stares and hand-holding to the History Repeats aspect really giving Anakin and Padmé vibes, there's definitely some sexual tension.

Rey

Foe Romance Subtext: Heavily with Kylo Ren, particularly in The Last Jedi. They have a Force Bond which they use to communicate, argue, and eventually confide and empathize their personal problems. She gets flustered when she inadvertently sees him shirtless through said bond, they outright hold hands, and he re-extends his We Can Rule Together offer in a way that sounds like a proposal.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/TheLastJedi

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 07 Feb 2018, 9:00 am

@special_cases wrote:I was reading TVTropes today and decided to check out TLJ lol

If I Can't Have You...: In The Last Jedi. After Rey rejects his offer to join him in leading the First Order, he goes from trying to bond with her to telling Luke that he'll kill her himself. That said, the next time he sees her through the Force Bond, he just stares at her calmly and with a conflicted expression on his face, suggesting he might not really have meant it.

Foe Romance Subtext: To such an extent that it can be considered straight up text. This film takes the latent sexual tension already present between Kylo Ren and Rey and cranks it Up to 11 to the point where it's not even subtle anymore.
They spend a good chunk of the movie confiding in each other via Force bond.
They exchange many Held Gazes and Rey at one point is Distracted by the Sexy when she sees Kylo shirtless.
They stare into each other's eyes and touch hands in a very intimate scene (complete with romantic music), which Luke interrupts.
Rey takes to empathising with him, even calling him Ben, and tries to repeatedly convince him to make a Heel–Face Turn.
Kylo kills Snoke after seeing him torture Rey and they both team up and kill the Praetorian Guards together.
He pleads with her to join him with phrasing that evokes a marriage proposal.

Foe Romance Subtext Kylo Star Wars: The Last Jedi turns up the subtext between Kylo and Rey from The Force Awakens to full-blown text. Connected by a Psychic Link they initially treat with hostility, they slowly begin to warm up, bond and empathize with each other over their mutual loneliness and sense of loss in the galaxy. Rey gets flustered when she accidentally sees him shirtless, the pair of them have several long held gazes, actually hold hands at one point, and he straight-up asks her to rule the galaxy by his side when he usurps his master.

Hidden Depths Kylo 1. For all his immaturity in regards to handling most situations, Kylo Ren shows in The Last Jedi that he has enough wisdom to understand the limitations of ideologies that both the Jedi and the Sith stuck by, something even Yoda seemed to only really grasp well after his own passing. Granted, Kylo Ren's answer to going beyond those ideologies and not be blinded by either is to just burn everything down, but credit where due, most wouldn't suspect someone that mentally and spiritually fractured to reach that kind of conclusion.

2. His reluctance to kill his mother, to the point of actively choosing not to fire at her and his interactions with Rey via their Force bond also suggest he’s not completely devoid of empathy and can even be kind when he wants to. A notable example is willingly listening to Rey tearfully pouring out her heart to him over her feelings of disappointment and isolation, and then reassuring her that she’s “not alone”. Of course, this is usually only when no one else is looking.


Innocently Insensitive: Kylo is no innocent, but when he tells Rey that her parents were nobodies who didn't care about her and who died meaningless deaths, he's not trying to be cruel. In fact, he's genuinely trying to be kind; as he says, Rey might have meant nothing to her parents, but she definitely means something to him.

Ship Tease Kylo: With Rey, in spades from The Last Jedi. From their Force Bond to their long stares and hand-holding to the History Repeats aspect really giving Anakin and Padmé vibes, there's definitely some sexual tension.

Rey

Foe Romance Subtext: Heavily with Kylo Ren, particularly in The Last Jedi. They have a Force Bond which they use to communicate, argue, and eventually confide and empathize their personal problems. She gets flustered when she inadvertently sees him shirtless through said bond, they outright hold hands, and he re-extends his We Can Rule Together offer in a way that sounds like a proposal.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/TheLastJedi
@special_cases

Having seen it today for the ninth - and probably last at the cinema - time, agree with you there. Regarding the bolded......the more I see TLJ, the more I think Kylo had the right idea but went about it in the wrong way. In short, yes it is time for no more First Order or rebels....and ironically Rey and Kylo could do a lot of good together because she brings out the best in him, and together they would bring balance to the universe....but naturally Rey couldn't let her friends die. Problem is, she rejected him in the worst way possible. All the good she did for his character was erased when she reached for that sabre. And I am absolutely sure that much of Kylo's rage came from hurt afterwards - from his point of view he'd offered her the galaxy and she rejected him for a bunch of traitors - and one traitor in particular! Pity he didn't know about Rose... Very Happy
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Riri on Wed 07 Feb 2018, 10:32 am

With the writers of GoT getting their own series, I was thinking if Disney were warming to more Adult content in SW? Imagine if we got more than a kiss in E9, like an actual sex scene - how steamy would that be! Though the longing looks and passionate desire in TLJ is enough for me at this point!

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by giaciak2 on Wed 07 Feb 2018, 10:35 am

@Riri I hope they call Adam Driver for explain better the force Bond scene Very Happy
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by SkyStar on Wed 07 Feb 2018, 1:30 pm

For those who like philosophy, I thought I could share an essay about The Last Jedi The Will of the Force: The Last Jedi and the Problem of Free Will. It basically discusses that the Star Wars universe is predetermined, because of the force. And then there is a discussion about personal actions if the universe is predetermined.
Also this comment from the Philosophy Reddit:
It's interesting that this article didn't touch on Revenge of the Sith at all, given that Anakin's vision of the future is ultimately what led him to the dark side.
Yoda seems to think that pondering this kind of problem is actually a mistake. "Impossible to see, the future is." "Always in motion is the future." Though, maybe crucially, what he tells Anakin is not that fortune is unpredictable, but that one must steel one's self against misfortune (practically quoting Seneca at one point), and that to try and control the future is a mistake of attachment (the Stoics would say "false judgement").
I think in TLJ (spoilers), when Rey and Kylo are talking about the vision each one has of the other, it's entirely possible that one or both of them is incorrect. Or, more likely if the future is indeterministic (which I believe it probably is in Star Wars), they both saw possible visions of the future.
I don't think the force is deterministic but I believe its metaphysics do compel certain people and events to action. The whole point of TLJ was to set up this idea of the balance of the force, that light side Jedi can't exist without dark side Jedi and vice versa. Luke begat Snoke who begat Kylo who begat Rey.
In TLJ, Luke made the same mistake as his father. He saw a vision of the future and acted on it as if the universe was deterministic. But Rey seems to believe that Luke could have made a different choice. I guess we'll have to watch the last movie to see if that's true or not.


I think it's interesting in relation to Ben, as to me it seems that his world is trashed because others constantly made choices for him which Rey calls out Luke about. And then she does to same by thinking he would join her.
Already when Ben killed his father I thought that it was kind of important for him to refuse, because Han basically wanted Ben to drop everything he was working for. It was his project. Just because it is morally right (well if you look that good and evil stuff). Then the same with Rey - everything was pointless if he wanted to go with her. He has been working on this project, it's crappy, but it's him and then someone comes and just asks him to drop everything to do something they want to do. And yet again what does he want? 

In my folk mythology always when a child is born there was this goddess of fate who basically told what fate the child will have in future. Now that is a predetermined world. Is it something similar with force? Seems like yes and no. I like the concept of force because it describes that magic of coincidences we have in our everyday lives and can't really explain. The force brought us together even though there were 1000/1 chances we could have met. I like the idea there is something really special about things like that. Does it predetermines the life? Light and dark fights for Kylo but we know it's him who will decide and the fact it's not so clear just emphasizes that it's his decision. We just have these hints.
Which is similar as to  I remember that concept art from TFA before Ben killed his father something about force making the decision. Yet it was Ben. 

With the predetermined universe, I think about one of the fights Kylo fans have with the ones who hate him is the blame that he is responsible for his actions. Which we kind of understand. But it's ironic that in a way people who try to push the - Kylo's fate wasn't predetermined by everything that happened, he chose to do everything the way he does. Because at the same time they predetermine his fate by saying that his actions mean he cannot choose another path by himself and deserves to die. Which then contradicts the idea himself. He is free to make bad decisions and good ones and craft his own path.

Sorry for the eruption of words.

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Dar-ren19 on Wed 07 Feb 2018, 2:39 pm

@Riri wrote:With the writers of GoT getting their own series, I was thinking if Disney were warming to more Adult content in SW? Imagine if we got more than a kiss in E9, like an actual sex scene - how steamy would that be! Though the longing looks and passionate desire in TLJ is enough for me at this point!
@Riri

I guess we won't actually get THAT (a sex scene), but a steamy kiss would be kinda nice thank you very much Disney Razz
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Dar-ren19 on Wed 07 Feb 2018, 2:44 pm

@special_cases wrote:I was reading TVTropes today and decided to check out TLJ lol

[i]If I Can't Have You...: In The Last Jedi. After Rey rejects his offer to join him in leading the First Order, he goes from trying to bond with her to telling Luke that he'll kill her himself. That said, the next time he sees her through the Force Bond, he just stares at her calmly and with a conflicted expression on his face, suggesting he might not really have meant it.


Foe Romance Subtext: To such an extent that it can be considered straight up text. This film takes the latent sexual tension already present between Kylo Ren and Rey and cranks it Up to 11 to the point where it's not even subtle anymore.
They spend a good chunk of the movie confiding in each other via Force bond.
They exchange many Held Gazes and Rey at one point is Distracted by the Sexy when she sees Kylo shirtless.
They stare into each other's eyes and touch hands in a very intimate scene (complete with romantic music), which Luke interrupts.
Rey takes to empathising with him, even calling him Ben, and tries to repeatedly convince him to make a Heel–Face Turn.
Kylo kills Snoke after seeing him torture Rey and they both team up and kill the Praetorian Guards together.
He pleads with her to join him with phrasing that evokes a marriage proposal.

Foe Romance Subtext Kylo Star Wars: The Last Jedi turns up the subtext between Kylo and Rey from The Force Awakens to full-blown text. Connected by a Psychic Link they initially treat with hostility, they slowly begin to warm up, bond and empathize with each other over their mutual loneliness and sense of loss in the galaxy. Rey gets flustered when she accidentally sees him shirtless, the pair of them have several long held gazes, actually hold hands at one point, and he straight-up asks her to rule the galaxy by his side when he usurps his master.

Hidden Depths Kylo 1. For all his immaturity in regards to handling most situations, Kylo Ren shows in The Last Jedi that he has enough wisdom to understand the limitations of ideologies that both the Jedi and the Sith stuck by, something even Yoda seemed to only really grasp well after his own passing. Granted, Kylo Ren's answer to going beyond those ideologies and not be blinded by either is to just burn everything down, but credit where due, most wouldn't suspect someone that mentally and spiritually fractured to reach that kind of conclusion.

2. His reluctance to kill his mother, to the point of actively choosing not to fire at her and his interactions with Rey via their Force bond also suggest he’s not completely devoid of empathy and can even be kind when he wants to. A notable example is willingly listening to Rey tearfully pouring out her heart to him over her feelings of disappointment and isolation, and then reassuring her that she’s “not alone”. Of course, this is usually only when no one else is looking.


Innocently Insensitive: Kylo is no innocent, but when he tells Rey that her parents were nobodies who didn't care about her and who died meaningless deaths, he's not trying to be cruel. In fact, he's genuinely trying to be kind; as he says, Rey might have meant nothing to her parents, but she definitely means something to him.

Ship Tease Kylo: With Rey, in spades from The Last Jedi. From their Force Bond to their long stares and hand-holding to the History Repeats aspect really giving Anakin and Padmé vibes, there's definitely some sexual tension.

Rey

Foe Romance Subtext: Heavily with Kylo Ren, particularly in The Last Jedi. They have a Force Bond which they use to communicate, argue, and eventually confide and empathize their personal problems. She gets flustered when she inadvertently sees him shirtless through said bond, they outright hold hands, and he re-extends his We Can Rule Together offer in a way that sounds like a proposal.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/TheLastJedi

@special_cases I loved this post, thank you Smile

re the bolded -- do you think the GA or some people are having trouble reading his expression in that last scene? I mean, let's leave the antis alone who think he's looking mean af and his entire face is changing (LOL), but the GA? I see less "conflicted" and pretty much pure regret in there. I think he knows he's effed up and she's got good reason to hate him.

However, my take is still that SHE effed up by going for the saber. This is the reason Rey isn't just Light Side. First thing she does is snatch the saber instead of talking to the guy offering her the world LOL.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Starliteprism on Wed 07 Feb 2018, 2:51 pm

@Dar-ren19 wrote:
@Riri wrote:With the writers of GoT getting their own series, I was thinking if Disney were warming to more Adult content in SW? Imagine if we got more than a kiss in E9, like an actual sex scene - how steamy would that be! Though the longing looks and passionate desire in TLJ is enough for me at this point!
@Riri

I guess we won't actually get THAT (a sex scene), but a steamy kiss would be kinda nice thank you very much Disney Razz
@Dar-ren19

I would be happy if it is just heavily implied, kinda like Anakin and Padme. I mean, if they have visions just by touching hands across the universe, what the heck will happen if they seal the deal? Yikes.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Dar-ren19 on Wed 07 Feb 2018, 3:04 pm

@Starliteprism wrote:
@Dar-ren19 wrote:
@Riri wrote:With the writers of GoT getting their own series, I was thinking if Disney were warming to more Adult content in SW? Imagine if we got more than a kiss in E9, like an actual sex scene - how steamy would that be! Though the longing looks and passionate desire in TLJ is enough for me at this point!
@Riri

I guess we won't actually get THAT (a sex scene), but a steamy kiss would be kinda nice thank you very much Disney Razz
@Dar-ren19

I would be happy if it is just heavily implied, kinda like Anakin and Padme. I mean, if they have visions just by touching hands across the universe, what the heck will happen if they seal the deal? Yikes.

@Starliteprism Haha yes, true. However, we saw Anakin and Padme in bed. Let's not forget that Very Happy
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by ZioRen on Wed 07 Feb 2018, 3:40 pm

This Tumblr post is so freaking true.
And don’t give me that sh** about Rey hating Kylo. Girl had EVERY chance to turn to Luke and be like “This dude keeps talking to me via Force how do I turn this sh** off?” But NO. She chose to hide it. She LIES to cover it up. She was intrigued and turned on and wanted a secret boyfriend
Source

We've discussed this in here before, and I think part of it was that great Rey meta that also recognized how protective and secretive Rey is over all of her interactions with Kylo. But it really does completely shoot the "Rey is terrified of Kylo and just wants him gone and out of her head" arguments out of the water. If she was so upset, she easily could have turned to Luke for help. It's not like she was shy at any point with him and he'd be the only one who might know what to do.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by SheLitAFire on Wed 07 Feb 2018, 4:10 pm

@Dar-ren19 wrote:
@Riri wrote:With the writers of GoT getting their own series, I was thinking if Disney were warming to more Adult content in SW? Imagine if we got more than a kiss in E9, like an actual sex scene - how steamy would that be! Though the longing looks and passionate desire in TLJ is enough for me at this point!
@Riri

I guess we won't actually get THAT (a sex scene), but a steamy kiss would be kinda nice thank you very much Disney Razz
@Dar-ren19

Adam's kissing skills make me swoon.

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Armadeus on Wed 07 Feb 2018, 4:24 pm

@SkyStar wrote:For those who like philosophy, I thought I could share an essay about The Last Jedi The Will of the Force: The Last Jedi and the Problem of Free Will. It basically discusses that the Star Wars universe is predetermined, because of the force. And then there is a discussion about personal actions if the universe is predetermined.
Also this comment from the Philosophy Reddit:
It's interesting that this article didn't touch on Revenge of the Sith at all, given that Anakin's vision of the future is ultimately what led him to the dark side.
Yoda seems to think that pondering this kind of problem is actually a mistake. "Impossible to see, the future is." "Always in motion is the future." Though, maybe crucially, what he tells Anakin is not that fortune is unpredictable, but that one must steel one's self against misfortune (practically quoting Seneca at one point), and that to try and control the future is a mistake of attachment (the Stoics would say "false judgement").
I think in TLJ (spoilers), when Rey and Kylo are talking about the vision each one has of the other, it's entirely possible that one or both of them is incorrect. Or, more likely if the future is indeterministic (which I believe it probably is in Star Wars), they both saw possible visions of the future.
I don't think the force is deterministic but I believe its metaphysics do compel certain people and events to action. The whole point of TLJ was to set up this idea of the balance of the force, that light side Jedi can't exist without dark side Jedi and vice versa. Luke begat Snoke who begat Kylo who begat Rey.
In TLJ, Luke made the same mistake as his father. He saw a vision of the future and acted on it as if the universe was deterministic. But Rey seems to believe that Luke could have made a different choice. I guess we'll have to watch the last movie to see if that's true or not.


I think it's interesting in relation to Ben, as to me it seems that his world is trashed because others constantly made choices for him which Rey calls out Luke about. And then she does to same by thinking he would join her.
Already when Ben killed his father I thought that it was kind of important for him to refuse, because Han basically wanted Ben to drop everything he was working for. It was his project. Just because it is morally right (well if you look that good and evil stuff). Then the same with Rey - everything was pointless if he wanted to go with her. He has been working on this project, it's crappy, but it's him and then someone comes and just asks him to drop everything to do something they want to do. And yet again what does he want? 

In my folk mythology always when a child is born there was this goddess of fate who basically told what fate the child will have in future. Now that is a predetermined world. Is it something similar with force? Seems like yes and no. I like the concept of force because it describes that magic of coincidences we have in our everyday lives and can't really explain. The force brought us together even though there were 1000/1 chances we could have met. I like the idea there is something really special about things like that. Does it predetermines the life? Light and dark fights for Kylo but we know it's him who will decide and the fact it's not so clear just emphasizes that it's his decision. We just have these hints.
Which is similar as to  I remember that concept art from TFA before Ben killed his father something about force making the decision. Yet it was Ben. 

With the predetermined universe, I think about one of the fights Kylo fans have with the ones who hate him is the blame that he is responsible for his actions. Which we kind of understand. But it's ironic that in a way people who try to push the - Kylo's fate wasn't predetermined by everything that happened, he chose to do everything the way he does. Because at the same time they predetermine his fate by saying that his actions mean he cannot choose another path by himself and deserves to die. Which then contradicts the idea himself. He is free to make bad decisions and good ones and craft his own path.

Sorry for the eruption of words.
@SkyStar

This all sounds similar to the questions of fate vs. free will that the Ancient Greeks were so fond of.

Fate was of great concern to the Greeks, and its workings resonate through many of their myths and texts. We see countless characters who go to great lengths in attempts to alter fate, even if they know such an aim to be futile.

Nothing can be done to alter or prolong the destiny of one’s life, regardless of the number of preparations or precautions taken. This inflexibility applies just as much to Zeus as to the lowliest mortal, as we see in Zeus’s hounding of Prometheus to divulge the name of the woman who will bear the offspring that one day will kill him.

Though this lesson is somewhat consoling—the way of the world cannot be bent to match the whims of those in authority—it is also very disturbing. The prospect of free will seems rather remote, and even acts of great valor and bravery seem completely useless. The myths provide an interesting counterpoint to this uselessness, however. In virtually all the stories in which a character does everything in his power to block a negative fate, and yet falls prey to it, we see that his efforts to subvert fate typically provide exactly the circumstances required for the prescribed fate to arise. In other words, the resisting characters themselves provide the path to fate’s fulfillment.

A perfect example is the king of Thebes, who has learned that his son, Oedipus, will one day kill him. The king takes steps to ensure Oedipus’s death but ends up ensuring only that he and Oedipus fail to recognize each other when they meet on the road many years later. This lack of recognition enables a dispute in which Oedipus slays his father without thinking twice. It is the king’s exercise of free will, then, that ironically binds him even more surely to the thread of destiny. This mysterious, inexplicable twinning between will and fate is visible in many the stories and philosophical treatises of the Greeks.

The Force does seem to act like some Platonic weaver of people's destinies. Does that make the SW universe deterministic? I'm not sure. There was the prophecy of the Chosen One which stated that Anakin was destined to destroy the Sith and that is precisely what happened, though not in the manner he and the Jedi might have wished. Then there was Luke's vision of Ben's future... hmmm... tricky


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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Dar-ren19 on Wed 07 Feb 2018, 7:16 pm

@SheLitAFire wrote:
@Dar-ren19 wrote:
@Riri wrote:With the writers of GoT getting their own series, I was thinking if Disney were warming to more Adult content in SW? Imagine if we got more than a kiss in E9, like an actual sex scene - how steamy would that be! Though the longing looks and passionate desire in TLJ is enough for me at this point!
@Riri

I guess we won't actually get THAT (a sex scene), but a steamy kiss would be kinda nice thank you very much Disney Razz
@Dar-ren19

Adam's kissing skills make me swoon.

@SheLitAFire yes, goshdarnit. I'd have to agree even while I feel like a cradlesnatcher Twisted Evil

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by DeeBee on Thu 08 Feb 2018, 2:44 am

@SkyStar wrote:For those who like philosophy, I thought I could share an essay about The Last Jedi The Will of the Force: The Last Jedi and the Problem of Free Will. It basically discusses that the Star Wars universe is predetermined, because of the force. And then there is a discussion about personal actions if the universe is predetermined.
Also this comment from the Philosophy Reddit:
It's interesting that this article didn't touch on Revenge of the Sith at all, given that Anakin's vision of the future is ultimately what led him to the dark side.
Yoda seems to think that pondering this kind of problem is actually a mistake. "Impossible to see, the future is." "Always in motion is the future." Though, maybe crucially, what he tells Anakin is not that fortune is unpredictable, but that one must steel one's self against misfortune (practically quoting Seneca at one point), and that to try and control the future is a mistake of attachment (the Stoics would say "false judgement").
I think in TLJ (spoilers), when Rey and Kylo are talking about the vision each one has of the other, it's entirely possible that one or both of them is incorrect. Or, more likely if the future is indeterministic (which I believe it probably is in Star Wars), they both saw possible visions of the future.
I don't think the force is deterministic but I believe its metaphysics do compel certain people and events to action. The whole point of TLJ was to set up this idea of the balance of the force, that light side Jedi can't exist without dark side Jedi and vice versa. Luke begat Snoke who begat Kylo who begat Rey.
In TLJ, Luke made the same mistake as his father. He saw a vision of the future and acted on it as if the universe was deterministic. But Rey seems to believe that Luke could have made a different choice. I guess we'll have to watch the last movie to see if that's true or not.


I think it's interesting in relation to Ben, as to me it seems that his world is trashed because others constantly made choices for him which Rey calls out Luke about. And then she does to same by thinking he would join her.
Already when Ben killed his father I thought that it was kind of important for him to refuse, because Han basically wanted Ben to drop everything he was working for. It was his project. Just because it is morally right (well if you look that good and evil stuff). Then the same with Rey - everything was pointless if he wanted to go with her. He has been working on this project, it's crappy, but it's him and then someone comes and just asks him to drop everything to do something they want to do. And yet again what does he want? 

In my folk mythology always when a child is born there was this goddess of fate who basically told what fate the child will have in future. Now that is a predetermined world. Is it something similar with force? Seems like yes and no. I like the concept of force because it describes that magic of coincidences we have in our everyday lives and can't really explain. The force brought us together even though there were 1000/1 chances we could have met. I like the idea there is something really special about things like that. Does it predetermines the life? Light and dark fights for Kylo but we know it's him who will decide and the fact it's not so clear just emphasizes that it's his decision. We just have these hints.
Which is similar as to  I remember that concept art from TFA before Ben killed his father something about force making the decision. Yet it was Ben. 

With the predetermined universe, I think about one of the fights Kylo fans have with the ones who hate him is the blame that he is responsible for his actions. Which we kind of understand. But it's ironic that in a way people who try to push the - Kylo's fate wasn't predetermined by everything that happened, he chose to do everything the way he does. Because at the same time they predetermine his fate by saying that his actions mean he cannot choose another path by himself and deserves to die. Which then contradicts the idea himself. He is free to make bad decisions and good ones and craft his own path.

Sorry for the eruption of words.
@SkyStar

Whoooooo SkyStar - this is really interesting to discuss and hear ideas about! I think it could have it's own thread.. Great word eruption!
I'll share my take on the force vs free will.

I think it's a case of the will of the force and free will co-existing. It's not one or the other..

In this thread  Thread: Balance - Light, Darkness but How? ] I shared a few comments where I looked for sources about the force - I was looking to try and understand the force better. Still not sure I do.. lol.. but I think understanding the force contributes to this question of whether the force predetermines things or if characters have self-determination.

I think the overall story of star wars is that the force (the unifying force aka the cosmic force or the greater force- rather than the living force) is sentinent in a way, always working at bringing the living force back into balance. The Chosen one prophecy seems to imply that the force facilitates the birth of certain people to help bring balance, and that there is an element of destiny/fate. However - there is still also free will.

I'm reminded of this Vader comic (which is canon) and what Jocasta Nu said about the force to vader:  
[I shared it in the thread 'balance- light, darkness but how?' also.]
Vader 10 comic:







Vader, time and again, at that point in his story, choosing to not fulfil his destiny/what the will of the force wanted him to do.. but.. he does eventually!
To me the message is - the force makes plans, and works toward balance but whatever you do - the force will find a way to balance itself.
Soooooo how then can we also have free will?
My understanding is that the 'larger, timeless cosmic force' (see thread I linked to for SW database source) is beyond time - so the cosmic force knew Anakin was going to turn before he turned.. and also that he would turn back.. but the cosmic force did not make this choice for him.
I hope this makes some sense.. lol. Oh well if not I've given it a go!
Phew. I'm gettin dizzy.. think I'm going to go rest haaaaaa..

Edited to add: Sorry I forgot to say that the idea of whether or not the force visions were true or reflect the future is I think a different question to whether the force predetermines things.. which I'll try to come back to another day. I look forward to hearing people's thoughts! bounce


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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Teo oswald on Thu 08 Feb 2018, 4:19 am

0MG OMG
Rey and Ben / Kylo's relationship is indeed full of symbolisms. I found this on reddit that has me even more convinced Smile  :
One thing I, and many others, noticed is that, during the scene in TLJ where Rey and Ben / Kylo touch hands through their Force bond, "The Force Theme" plays. However...this theme is also called "Binary Sunset" (another name for "Twin Suns"), which I feel absolutely symbolizes - and cements - that Rey and Kylo are "destined to be together".

The Force Theme": This is the poignant melody that represents the mystical, all-encompassing Force. Unsurprisingly, it bears kinship to Holst's music for "Neptune, the Mystic." It's also known as "Binary Sunset," because it's first heard when Luke strikes his iconic pose on Tatooine in A New Hope, watching that planet's twin stars set behind the horizon.
"The Force Theme" appears in all six Star Wars films released to date, and Williams often uses it to indicate when a character is channeling the Force — particularly the good side of the Force, as when Luke is calling to Leia while he dangles below Cloud City in Empire
Now, what does this have to do with the concept of "twin suns"?
For one, "twin suns" are "stable binary stars"; 1/3 star systems identified thus far in the Milky Way galaxy are binary systems. By the modern definition, the term "binary star" is generally restricted to pairs of stars which revolve around a common center of mass. The two stars offer a "balance" to the other, as they settle into a continuous orbit around the other, and the space between them. (Models of their orbit also mirror the Daoist symbol of Balance.)
The term binary was first used in this context by Sir William Herschel in 1802, when he wrote:
"If, on the contrary, two stars should really be situated very near each other, and at the same time so far insulated as not to be materially affected by the attractions of neighbouring stars, they will then compose a separate system, and remain united by the bond of their own mutual gravitation towards each other. This should be called a real double star; and any two stars that are thus mutually connected, form the binary sidereal system which we are now to consider."
 
What's more
If components in binary star systems are close enough, they can gravitationally distort their mutual outer stellar atmospheres. In some cases, these close binary systems can exchange mass, which may bring their evolution to stages that single stars cannot attain. Examples of binaries are Sirius, and Cygnus X-1 (Cygnus X-1 being a well-known black hole). Binary stars are also common as the nuclei of many planetary nebulae, and are the progenitors of both novae and type Ia supernovae.

[...] Binary stars may be found with any conceivable separation, from pairs orbiting so closely that they are practically in contact with each other, to pairs so distantly separated that their connection is indicated only by their common proper motion through space.
But how does this pertain to Kylo and Rey? Simply put, they are the symbolic "twin suns", the "binary stars". They revolve around each other, and the "shared space" (i.e. the Force connection) between them.
Likewise:
.the likelihood of being in a binary or a multi-star system steadily increases as the mass of the components increase...The mass of a star can be directly determined only from its gravitational attraction [to the other star in the binary].
[The higher the mass, the higher the gravitational attraction, and the closer the planets revolve around the other.]
And what does Snoke say in TLJ, pertaining to Kylo / Ben and Rey?
"Come closer child. So much strength. Darkness rises and light to meet it. I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger, his equal in the light would rise."
Likewise, perhaps the most well-known case of "twin suns" is that of Alcor and Mizar, which also tie into Eastern (Indian) mythology.

Mizar and Alcor are two stars forming a naked eye double in the handle of the Big Dipper (or Plough) asterism in the constellation of Ursa Major. Mizar is the second star from the end of the Big Dipper's handle, and Alcor its fainter companion.

[In India], Mizar is known as Vashistha, and Alcor as Arundhati, two of the Saptarishi, in traditional Indian astronomy. As a married couple, they are considered to symbolize marriage, and in some Hindu communities to this day priests conducting a wedding ceremony allude to or point out the constellation as a symbol of the closeness marriage brings to a couple.

The pair is considered to symbolize marriage. Vashistha and Arundhati were a married couple. Arundhati and Vasistha were considered an ideal couple, symbolic of marital fulfillment and loyalty.
During the marriage ceremonies of Hindus, one of the ritual is the groom shows the bride the double stars of Vasishta and Arundhati (Alcor and Mizar). In some Hindu communities, priests conducting a wedding ceremony allude to or point out the constellation as a symbol of the closeness marriage brings to a couple.
In most twin stars system one star is stationary and other rotates around it, while Arundhati and Vashishtha both rotate in synchrony.
To tell that both husband and wife must do all things in sync, and that husband must not rotate round the wife, or wife should not dance to the tune of her husband, this ritual was made a part of the marriage ceremony.
Likewise, during the throne room fight scene against the Praetorian Guards, both Kylo / Ben and Rey seem to be "in perfect sync" - also mirroring the Indian tale of Vasishta and Arundhati.
In the story of Vasishta and Arundhati, Arundhati is the younger of the couple by some years, mirroring Kylo / Ben and Rey (Ben being 29-30, Rey being 19-20). According to the legend, Arundhati, sent away from "her home", marries Vasishta, "a Master and a very learned man"...who not only becomes her husband, but her teacher.
And, of course, Kylo / Ben says this to Rey in TFA:
You need a teacher! ...I can show you the ways of the Force!
According to the story, Vasishta and Arundhati bond over "intelligence and scholarly disputes above all else"; Vasishta is "taken aback by his wife's clear perception, yet pleased with her ability". In return, Arundhati becomes her husband's partner in his school / academy, teaching pupils about the three Vedas and "the importance of serving the good of all".
(Sounds suspiciously similar to what fans want to happen with Ben and Rey at the end of IX, no? To become teachers at a new Jedi / Force Academy?)
And, last, but certainly not least, is the concept of Ardhangini ("the eternal being") - what Vasishta calls Arundhati, when he realizes that his wife is "his equal".

If you want the rest you can find it here
I assure you that it's worth it, I've read it all and am still shocked. every time I have some doubts I look at this post Smile
http://acagoldsmith.tumblr.com/post/170618931581/ben-solo-and-rey-how-they-represent-the-twin
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by special_cases on Thu 08 Feb 2018, 5:01 am

@Dar-ren19 wrote:
@special_cases wrote:I was reading TVTropes today and decided to check out TLJ lol

If I Can't Have You...: In The Last Jedi. After Rey rejects his offer to join him in leading the First Order, he goes from trying to bond with her to telling Luke that he'll kill her himself. That said, the next time he sees her through the Force Bond, he just stares at her calmly and with a conflicted expression on his face, suggesting he might not really have meant it.


Foe Romance Subtext: To such an extent that it can be considered straight up text. This film takes the latent sexual tension already present between Kylo Ren and Rey and cranks it Up to 11 to the point where it's not even subtle anymore.
They spend a good chunk of the movie confiding in each other via Force bond.
They exchange many Held Gazes and Rey at one point is Distracted by the Sexy when she sees Kylo shirtless.
They stare into each other's eyes and touch hands in a very intimate scene (complete with romantic music), which Luke interrupts.
Rey takes to empathising with him, even calling him Ben, and tries to repeatedly convince him to make a Heel–Face Turn.
Kylo kills Snoke after seeing him torture Rey and they both team up and kill the Praetorian Guards together.
He pleads with her to join him with phrasing that evokes a marriage proposal.

Foe Romance Subtext Kylo Star Wars: The Last Jedi turns up the subtext between Kylo and Rey from The Force Awakens to full-blown text. Connected by a Psychic Link they initially treat with hostility, they slowly begin to warm up, bond and empathize with each other over their mutual loneliness and sense of loss in the galaxy. Rey gets flustered when she accidentally sees him shirtless, the pair of them have several long held gazes, actually hold hands at one point, and he straight-up asks her to rule the galaxy by his side when he usurps his master.

Hidden Depths Kylo 1. For all his immaturity in regards to handling most situations, Kylo Ren shows in The Last Jedi that he has enough wisdom to understand the limitations of ideologies that both the Jedi and the Sith stuck by, something even Yoda seemed to only really grasp well after his own passing. Granted, Kylo Ren's answer to going beyond those ideologies and not be blinded by either is to just burn everything down, but credit where due, most wouldn't suspect someone that mentally and spiritually fractured to reach that kind of conclusion.

2. His reluctance to kill his mother, to the point of actively choosing not to fire at her and his interactions with Rey via their Force bond also suggest he’s not completely devoid of empathy and can even be kind when he wants to. A notable example is willingly listening to Rey tearfully pouring out her heart to him over her feelings of disappointment and isolation, and then reassuring her that she’s “not alone”. Of course, this is usually only when no one else is looking.


Innocently Insensitive: Kylo is no innocent, but when he tells Rey that her parents were nobodies who didn't care about her and who died meaningless deaths, he's not trying to be cruel. In fact, he's genuinely trying to be kind; as he says, Rey might have meant nothing to her parents, but she definitely means something to him.

Ship Tease Kylo: With Rey, in spades from The Last Jedi. From their Force Bond to their long stares and hand-holding to the History Repeats aspect really giving Anakin and Padmé vibes, there's definitely some sexual tension.

Rey

Foe Romance Subtext: Heavily with Kylo Ren, particularly in The Last Jedi. They have a Force Bond which they use to communicate, argue, and eventually confide and empathize their personal problems. She gets flustered when she inadvertently sees him shirtless through said bond, they outright hold hands, and he re-extends his We Can Rule Together offer in a way that sounds like a proposal.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/TheLastJedi


@special_cases I loved this post, thank you Smile

re the bolded -- do you think the GA or some people are having trouble reading his expression in that last scene? I mean, let's leave the antis alone who think he's looking mean af and his entire face is changing (LOL), but the GA? I see less "conflicted" and pretty much pure regret in there. I think he knows he's effed up and she's got good reason to hate him.

However, my take is still that SHE effed up by going for the saber. This is the reason Rey isn't just Light Side. First thing she does is snatch the saber instead of talking to the guy offering her the world LOL.

@Dar-ren19

I don't think that GA has trouble with reading his expressions - problem is that GA watchs films just once. Most viewers don't remember all scenes and for sure do not analyze them. I mean, I was on Twitter 12-14 December and people were talking about Kylo being interesting most epic SW character and Kylo going totally on the dark side in the end. Like, the last thing is not really what happened simply because Kylo's rage on Crait is not how the Dark Side Advanced is usually showed in SW. This is a scene of the highest note in his conflict - he is trying to be calm and evil like Palpatine ("Do it") and losing it just 5 seconds later - because he care. He care about that piece of junk and that traitor and murderer Luke. And all he gets in the end - is regret. But there is nothing unusual or strange that most of GA read it the simplest way - "Kylo Ren is Big Bad in the end."  

But it's what you take from the first view because it's hard to process everything that happened and it's okay. If people really want to get what a creator wanted to show, they rewatch and they are trying to read it fairly. Unfortunately, "interpret\read fairly" usually has nothing to do with most SW hardcore fans.

We as a part of SW fans, I mean we are as "Reylo theorists" can be guilty of this too. There are a lot of people who are saying that Kylo wasn't manipulative in TLJ. That's not what a film shows: Kylo isn't consciously manipulative - like he has this Big Evil Strategy to make Rey his own - but he is doing a manipulative thing for many reasons, and most of them are sad but it doesn't change that the film portraits it like sincere intention and sincere goal with "manipulation" as a weapon. We're just more open to nuance, that's why we saw Reylo in TFA and 90% of SW fans were stubbornly blind - lol because ST is more nuanced that all OT and PT films.

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by SkyStar on Thu 08 Feb 2018, 1:22 pm

@Armadeus I agree with you that I don't think force is making the world determined. It's even kind of interesting that stories about people trying to act upon changing prophecies bring them to self-fulfillment like a punishment of sort for even discovering it in the first place. You hear a prophecy and you know you are doomed. I mean Anakin saw a dream, he couldn't control it. But there is something about peaking in the unknown and that being looked at coming with a cost. There is some sort of free will with the fact that Anakin tried to change what he saw. Or at least he thought he has this free will to act. There was a lot of future visions in TLJ - Luke's about Kylo destroying everything, Rey's and Kylo's visions about their shared future. All of them are different from Anakin's - they don't show Kylo's death, we are still unknown and it already doesn't feel as deterministic. 

btw to continue the theme with Greek mythology @DeeBee your words resonated with I think is in a way comparable with the gods vs humans theme in the mythology. I mean gods were immortal and basically did what they wanted. Humans were there to be always much smaller than them and to be punished for not worshipping enough, for thinking they are better or smarter then gods or for simply being at the wrong place in the wrong time. So there is some kind of predetermination with that for humans at least. I guess that is why force is often compared to religion. But it's rather from what angle you look - a person is rather small and useless on the grand scale where there is this overwhelming energy. Or if you look at the level of one person - there is this urge to bend the force for its use and then it's how you use it - for good or bad. 

Anyway, how I look at is not really from the point of force lore, but how force is used in different conversations in a more semiotical approach as this energy field but also how it helps a person - no matter if he has force powers or not. I think it's something for people to not feel alone, to have something approving of disapproving in this massive and lonely universe. Like when the lightsaber chooses Rey - the force approves of her ways, but then it's torn between Rey and Ben. There is something that helps the characters understand they have made the right decision. A little nod from some kind of magic above. And suddenly it becomes a bit better and much easier to stand whatever you want yourself to be. 

Ok, I started rambling again. Smile

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Dar-ren19 on Thu 08 Feb 2018, 3:10 pm

We as a part of SW fans, I mean we are as "Reylo theorists" can be guilty of this too. There are a lot of people who are saying that Kylo wasn't manipulative in TLJ. That's not what a film shows: Kylo isn't consciously manipulative - like he has this Big Evil Strategy to make Rey his own - but he is doing a manipulative thing for many reasons, and most of them are sad but it doesn't change that the film portraits it like sincere intention and sincere goal with "manipulation" as a weapon. We're just more open to nuance, that's why we saw Reylo in TFA and 90% of SW fans were stubbornly blind - lol because ST is more nuanced that all OT and PT films.


@special_cases this is a very significant distinction you're making, and I think that's exactly the point Rian Johnson was making when he answered the Collider Q&A about Snoke's death. Only, he didn't do it as well as you did here Very Happy
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Teo oswald on Fri 09 Feb 2018, 1:25 am

@Dar-ren19 wrote:We as a part of SW fans, I mean we are as "Reylo theorists" can be guilty of this too. There are a lot of people who are saying that Kylo wasn't manipulative in TLJ. That's not what a film shows: Kylo isn't consciously manipulative - like he has this Big Evil Strategy to make Rey his own - but he is doing a manipulative thing for many reasons, and most of them are sad but it doesn't change that the film portraits it like sincere intention and sincere goal with "manipulation" as a weapon. We're just more open to nuance, that's why we saw Reylo in TFA and 90% of SW fans were stubbornly blind - lol because ST is more nuanced that all OT and PT films.


@special_cases this is a very significant distinction you're making, and I think that's exactly the point Rian Johnson was making when he answered the Collider Q&A about Snoke's death. Only, he didn't do it as well as you did here Very Happy
@"Ma-ren19"

You wonder why I keep a rabid cur in such a place of power? A cur's weakness, properly manipulated, can be a sharp tool
Kylo learns this. And he uses Rey's parents as the engine to get her on his side. But use this trick only on that occasion. Her biggest weakness is that she leans on anyone, and that's what he wants. He wants to be the only one who Rey can trust
In that moment  Rey's heart was as fragile as glass. If her heart is so fragile. . .let's try shattering her into pieces.
this is what Kylo did to have Rey with him, but I do not see it as such a negative thing, it is an "extreme" gesture. Smile
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by giaciak2 on Fri 09 Feb 2018, 4:53 am

I do not think Kylo wants to manipulate her. I see him exaggeratedly naive when it comes to talking with women ...
He spoke about the right topic -genitors- in the wrong way. Sad
And he declared his love by starting with - you're nothing. Shocked
I thought it was a rule known in the universe that when a man talks to a woman the sentence must always start with:
my love you are right .... afterwards the sentence can come. What a Face
I'm sure if he had more frequented his father and not his uncle, monk. He would know what to say ...
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