The Last Jedi General Discussion

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by nickandnora on Fri 09 Feb 2018, 8:02 am

@Teo oswald wrote:
@Dar-ren19 wrote:We as a part of SW fans, I mean we are as "Reylo theorists" can be guilty of this too. There are a lot of people who are saying that Kylo wasn't manipulative in TLJ. That's not what a film shows: Kylo isn't consciously manipulative - like he has this Big Evil Strategy to make Rey his own - but he is doing a manipulative thing for many reasons, and most of them are sad but it doesn't change that the film portraits it like sincere intention and sincere goal with "manipulation" as a weapon. We're just more open to nuance, that's why we saw Reylo in TFA and 90% of SW fans were stubbornly blind - lol because ST is more nuanced that all OT and PT films.


@special_cases this is a very significant distinction you're making, and I think that's exactly the point Rian Johnson was making when he answered the Collider Q&A about Snoke's death. Only, he didn't do it as well as you did here Very Happy
@"Ma-ren19"

You wonder why I keep a rabid cur in such a place of power? A cur's weakness, properly manipulated, can be a sharp tool
Kylo learns this. And he uses Rey's parents as the engine to get her on his side. But use this trick only on that occasion. Her biggest weakness is that she leans on anyone, and that's what he wants. He wants to be the only one who Rey can trust
In that moment  Rey's heart was as fragile as glass. If her heart is so fragile. . .let's try shattering her into pieces.
this is what Kylo did to have Rey with him, but I do not see it as such a negative thing, it is an "extreme" gesture. Smile
@Teo oswald

OK, the line I bolded, is THAT what Snoke says? I saw this for the fourth time last night and realized I had never noticed this line before, nor had I seen it discussed.

Snoke's referring to Hux here, but what's funny is that he really could be referring to Kylo. If he did indeed say "cur" the definition for that is either: "an aggressive dog in poor condition" or "a contemptible man." The former definition seems to fit Kylo and the latter seems more like Hux.
So what are each of their weaknesses? As far as I can tell, Hux's weakness is simply not being a force-user (and possibly his jealousy at that). Kylo's is his emotions in general.

None of this is exactly groundbreaking news, but I just found it interesting that there was a direct reference to exploiting weakness for the purpose of creating a "tool," because I very much think that's going to be thing in Episode IX, but with Hux taking Snoke's mantra to heart instead of Kylo (ie. Hux will exploit Kylo's weaknesses).

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Teo oswald on Fri 09 Feb 2018, 10:15 am

@nickandnora

You wonder why I keep a rabid cur in such a place of power? A cur's weakness, properly manipulated, can be a sharp tool

this phrase was said by Snoke, referring to Hux Smile

but, Snoke has always manipulated Kylo ren so we can say that the phrase referred  not only to Hux but also to Kylo. They did it on purpose to insert that phrase by Snoke. manipulating a person brings benefits in the world of Star Wars.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Dar-ren19 on Fri 09 Feb 2018, 10:26 am

So you think Kylo manipulated Rey?
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Teo oswald on Fri 09 Feb 2018, 10:37 am

@Dar-ren19 wrote:So you think Kylo manipulated Rey?
@Dar-ren19

Yes, just because it was the only way to get Rey, to have her . His intentions are not evil, it's his way of acting that is a bit extreme Smile but he's not bad
Snoke is manipulative from the beginning, but Kylo is completely the opposite
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Teo oswald on Fri 09 Feb 2018, 10:45 am

The moment where Kylo makes his appeal of “join me” to Rey - and I think Adam captured it so well and that little please he gives at the end - it was important to me that it wasn’t a chess game, it wasn't just manipulation.

That as unhealthy, and as much, that is you know, um awful about the way that he's trying...it is manipulative..um* from his point of view, it’s a very naked, open emotional appeal. It’s his version of, “I’m just a girl standing in front of a guy asking him [to love her], it’s Kylo’s sick evil version of that. But from his perspective, the same way when he tells his version of the story with Luke, I don’t think he’s lying. That’s his experience of that moment. I think he’s telling it honestly.


Rian talks about the Throne Room and makes a reference to Notting Hill

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Night Huntress on Fri 09 Feb 2018, 10:49 am

@Dar-ren19

I hope you don't mind if I answer.

Depends of what your definition of "manipulation" is. Because we constantly manipulate people and get manipulated in return...
I don't think he deliberately manipulated her- he wanted her to join him on her own free will. If he wanted to manipulate her the easiest and most obvious way would have been to tell her "if you join me, I will spare the resistance fleet" -or something along those lines- but he didn't.

I translated his clumsy "you're nothing, but not to me" speech as "I don't care you don't have some important lineage, I like/love you anyway"
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by giaciak2 on Fri 09 Feb 2018, 11:08 am

Please do not kill me.
I think Kylo does not want to manipulate Rey. Kylo thought that Rey would accept his marriage proposal. He used her parents to debase his humble and unfortunate origins. According to me the directors wanted to make a marriage proposal (horrible) similar to that of Darcy.

Darcy     "In vain I have struggled. It will not do. My feelings will not be repressed. You must allow me to tell you how ardently I admire and love you."
Elizabeth's astonishment was beyond expression. She stared, coloured, doubted, and was silent. This he considered sufficient encouragement, and the avowal of all that he felt, and had long felt for her, immediately followed. He spoke well, but there were feelings besides those of the heart to be detailed, and he was not more eloquent on the subject of tenderness than of pride. His sense of her inferiority - of its being a degradation - of the family obstacles which judgment had always opposed to inclination, were dwelt on with a warmth which seemed due to the consequence he was wounding, but was very unlikely to recommend his suit.

Because, I hope there will be another better proposal like Darcy .... prepare the handkerchiefs ...

I know I will melt in the cinema.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by 12 Parsnips on Fri 09 Feb 2018, 11:21 am

@Night Huntress wrote:@Dar-ren19

I hope you don't mind if I answer.

Depends of what your definition of "manipulation" is. Because we constantly manipulate people and get manipulated in return...
I don't think he deliberately manipulated her- he wanted her to join him on her own free will. If he wanted to manipulate her the easiest and most obvious way would have been to tell her "if you join me, I will spare the resistance fleet" -or something along those lines- but he didn't.

I translated his clumsy "you're nothing, but not to me" speech as "I don't care you don't have some important lineage, I like/love you anyway"
@Night Huntress

I agree, but I also think that Ben thought that since Rey was "nobody," she'd want to find her identity with him (and the mighty Skywalker blood). That's how he would have responded if he was a nobody, so he thought she would too. He was kind of holding on to that card to play there at the end. It's why he was so sure she'd "stand with him."

So in that sense Ben was "manipulating" Rey, hoping to influence her answer. But I wouldn't call that hard-core manipulation myself. It strikes me more as a selfish, rather than manipulative, way to propose, although entirely sincere.

But I don't think he manipulated her into mailing herself to him on the Supremacy in her space coffin. In my opinion, that was Rey's handiwork and the result of her own agency. But she did fall into Snoke's trap. Ben was unaware of this trap, IMO, because of the way he looked up in the throne room when Snoke mentioned he had bridged their minds. Nevertheless he plans to use her arrival for his own ends of killing Snoke...though again, not in a way that would necessarily harm her.

It's complicated, I think, just like relationships are!  Wink
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by special_cases on Fri 09 Feb 2018, 11:37 am

@giaciak2 wrote:I do not think Kylo wants to manipulate her. I see him exaggeratedly naive when it comes to talking with women ...
He spoke about the right topic -genitors- in the wrong way. Sad
And he declared his love by starting with - you're nothing. Shocked
@giaciak2

I think we can all agree that "You're nothing" wasn't a good start. Like the worst start ever...
Because I can't remember mainstream couple from literature ot cinema when a romantic hero is saying something close to "You're nothing" to heroine.

I understand that my opinion could be not popular here. But I need to say that Rian has gone too far with 2 things in TLJ: 1. "You're nothing, but not to me" 2. Luke's attitude on Crait and Luke trying to emotionally manipulate Ben there.

Rian was trying to write SW dialogues (very successful) but Rey and Kylo (!!!) from TFA wasn't that well-developed characters (like Luke, Leia and Han in ANH) to make such short dramatic lines work 100%. Rian is lucky he had Driver who can sell the deal with one word "Please." Combining with a fact that Rian wrote all charachters except Rey and Rose as a little manipulative...  

Rian is very very ambitious screenwriter. Maybe knowing that Reylo is an endgame, he wanted to create an iconic line and something less would be not so shocking. I think Kasdan would make it work better with some Kylo's lines. Understandable that they needed a personal reason for her to run away after proposal, but "You're nothing" was too far. "You come from nothing" works wonderful without second part.

Well, we have what we have. It changes nothing.

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by ZioRen on Fri 09 Feb 2018, 12:01 pm

@Night Huntress wrote:@Dar-ren19

I hope you don't mind if I answer.

Depends of what your definition of "manipulation" is. Because we constantly manipulate people and get manipulated in return...
I don't think he deliberately manipulated her- he wanted her to join him on her own free will. If he wanted to manipulate her the easiest and most obvious way would have been to tell her "if you join me, I will spare the resistance fleet" -or something along those lines- but he didn't.

I translated his clumsy "you're nothing, but not to me" speech as "I don't care you don't have some important lineage, I like/love you anyway"
@Night Huntress

Yep. Speaking of manipulation, Rey also pretty blatantly tried to manipulate Kylo in the elevator. "I know it's tearing you apart to be like this, it's not too late, I'll help you turn! Look how pretty and open I am getting up in your personal space, don't you want to come back with me and be free of this pain?" The fact that she immediately stepped away and looked put out when he turned it back on her made the impression stronger.

I don't think the "you're nothing but not to me" was necessarily too far. It's a reminder that Kylo isn't a good guy and his mind is not yet in the right place to be one or be with Rey. He's still the villain and plans to be for a while longer. I do think, however, that the amount of reasons stacked against Rey ever taking his hand in that moment kind of cheapened the whole thing. A stronger temptation to join him would have made a better narrative, but instead he called her nothing while her friends were blowing up in the background. There wasn't much ambiguity there at all. Even Rian straight out called the proposal sick and evil despite its sincerity.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by special_cases on Fri 09 Feb 2018, 12:32 pm

@ZioRen wrote:


Yep. Speaking of manipulation, Rey also pretty blatantly tried to manipulate Kylo in the elevator. "I know it's tearing you apart to be like this, it's not too late, I'll help you turn! Look how pretty and open I am getting up in your personal space, don't you want to come back with me and be free of this pain?" The fact that she immediately stepped away and looked put out when he turned it back on her made the impression stronger.

I don't think the "you're nothing but not to me" was necessarily too far. It's a reminder that Kylo isn't a good guy and his mind is not yet in the right place to be one or be with Rey. He's still the villain and plans to be for a while longer. I do think, however, that the amount of reasons stacked against Rey ever taking his hand in that moment kind of cheapened the whole thing. A stronger temptation to join him would have made a better narrative, but instead he called her nothing while her friends were blowing up in the background. There wasn't much ambiguity there at all. Even Rian straight out called the proposal sick and evil despite its sincerity.
@ZioRen

Yes, I agree about Rey in the elevator, and I forgot how she was all "Oh I will help you!" --> five minutes later --> "Oh only if you do what I want!"

Kind of cool that even with so many reasons to say "No," so many people from GA wanted Rey to say "Yes."


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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Night Huntress on Fri 09 Feb 2018, 12:46 pm

I loved Kylo/Ben's proposal! And yes, it only works so well because of Adam's acting skills... the subtitles leaked a few day before the TLJ was officially release and I read those lines - it was so horrible! pale

But Rian knew exactly Adam can pull it off and he did! I have to say it's not only his acting it's also how he says it- his voice.
Hearing it with his German voice at first was a bit meh. The part about her parents being drunks comes off completely wrong- almost cruel.
I hated it... after I heard it with Adam's original voice it's different... still bad but not mean or mocking.

It would have been better (and a much bigger temptation for Rey) if the fleet weren't in immediate danger...
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by ZioRen on Fri 09 Feb 2018, 12:52 pm

@Night Huntress wrote:I loved Kylo/Ben's proposal! And yes, it only works so well because of Adam's acting skills... the subtitles leaked a few day before the TLJ was officially release and I read those lines - it was so horrible! pale

But Rian knew exactly Adam can pull it off and he did! I have to say it's not only his acting it's also how he says it- his voice.
Hearing it with his German voice at first was a bit meh. The part about her parents being drunks comes off completely wrong- almost cruel.
I hated it... after I heard it with Adam's original voice it's different... still bad but not mean or mocking.

It would have been better (and a much bigger temptation for Rey) if the fleet weren't in immediate danger...
@Night Huntress

Agreed! When I read the script lines I was almost wondering if they were shooting endgame Reylo to pieces then and there. They really aren't nice lines without the acting context. But in context, and knowing the rest of the movie, it makes perfect sense and doesn't look so bad. Kylo isn't telling Rey that her parents were drunks just to hurt her, but because he values the truth when it comes to her and he wants her to (ironically, considering he can't do the same) let go of her past and realize that she's waiting for and mourning over parents who were terrible and aren't worth even one of her passing thoughts. He was trying to get her to be real with herself, which is why the claims that HE made up the backstory about her parents is ridiculous, ruins the point of the whole moment, and most of all undermines Rey's personal growth and arc. Even if it's not the full truth, Kylo believes it's the real truth and so does she. He's not lying to her in the least.

It wasn't "see, you're garbage like they thought", it was "Screw them and screw everyone else. You're 'nothing' in the context of this galaxy and its biggest players and stories but I know you're not nothing because I know you, and you know me, better than all of them, so let's build something new and stick it to them all."


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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by nickandnora on Fri 09 Feb 2018, 1:10 pm

I have to say, this conversation is making me glad that I only "joined" the fandom after TLJ, because going into the film without any preconceptions (just a vague notion that *something* was interesting about the Reylo bond), I think everything landed exactly how it was supposed to with me as an unspoiled viewer. That is to say, things were at once horrible, and horribly romantic and I'm impressed as ALL HELL that Rian, Adam and Daisy pulled such a unique dichotemy off. This would not be as effective a romance if there wasn't something... vaguely... monstrous about it, at the same time? Hope that doesn't rub anyone the wrong way, and it's not the same as saying that this is an abusive dynamic (*yawn*). But it certainly has shades of Persephone/Hades in it. And there's a reason that myth has endured and its themes and motifs have been present in so many love stories as well.

So yeah, that's just my way of saying: it's all good. "You come from nothing. You're nothing. But not to me" wouldn't work so well if it wasn't alternately "Oh my god that's terrible, so why is it also the most romantic thing I've ever heard OMG?!" You have to be ballsy to write a memorable romance, which this is.

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Fri 09 Feb 2018, 2:11 pm

Oh, for sure. The really amazing thing is the dichotomy between the monstrous and the childlike "slide when I see you", "cry when we touch" first love. It's unexpected for both parties, but they can't control it. Rey and Kylo seem always on the cusp of finding that internal balance that was foreshadowed between them in the hut. It's the total thematic opposite of Anakin and Padme. Something that shouldn't be beautiful and pure but can't help but be just that as opposed to something that should be beautiful but feels tainted and wrong.

It's true that there's the Hades and Persephone vibe, but it's contrasted with the vulnerability, purity and intimacy of a first teenaged love just as Kylo is a weird but effective combo between a Byronic hero and a lonely, lost child.


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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Kessel on Fri 09 Feb 2018, 2:20 pm

At first, I also was a little irritated by the “you’re nothing, but not to me” line when I heard about it (before seeing the movie). But after seeing the scene play out, I thought it worked in the context and with Adam’s delivery. It fits with Kylo’s state of mind (he’s not in a great place and he’s thinking Rey will react like he would in such a situation), but it’s clear he’s sincerely telling Rey she means something to him (aka she’s important to him).

I agree with @ZioRen, Kylo wasn’t trying to hurt Rey with those words; he was trying to reach her and make her see that he saw her as somebody, even if she wasn’t (in the context of the galaxy).  I also wish that there were more stakes in that scene for Rey to join Kylo, but the whole situation made it easy for Rey to say no, at that moment because her Resistance friends were in imminent danger and Kylo was ignoring her requests to stop the attack on them. So even if she wanted to talk to Kylo or find a way to reason with him, there was no time.

I wonder if the ”you’re nothing, but not to me” line may have worked better if Kylo had used “nobody” instead of “nothing.” After all, Rey already said her parents were “nobodies.” I think if Kylo had said, “you’re nobody, but not to me” or “you’re nobody in this galaxy, but not to me” it would have conveyed his feelings more accurately than “you’re nothing.” Maybe Rian continued with  “nothing” instead of switching to “nobody” since he’d already used, “you come from nothing”? Who knows...

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Dar-ren19 on Fri 09 Feb 2018, 3:12 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Oh, for sure. The really amazing thing is the dichotomy between the monstrous and the childlike "slide when I see you", "cry when we touch" first love. It's unexpected for both parties, but they can't control it. Rey and Kylo seem always on the cusp of finding that internal balance that was foreshadowed between them in the hut. It's the total thematic opposite of Anakin and Padme. Something that shouldn't be beautiful and pure but can't help but be just that as opposed to something that should be beautiful but feels tainted and wrong.

It's true that there's the Hades and Persephone vibe, but it's contrasted with the vulnerability, purity and intimacy of a first teenaged love just as Kylo is a weird but effective combo between a Byronic hero and a lonely, lost child.

@FrolickingFizzgig you are so, so wise! You took the thoughts out of my head and wove them into words! Thank you.

Everyone, I’m really enjoying this conversation, so thank you for responding to that question. I deliberately didn’t tag anyone specific because I feel that this is such an important question that should be discussed not only in terms of reylo but Kylo and Rey individually.

I will write again once I’m back home tonight.


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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Saracene on Fri 09 Feb 2018, 3:12 pm

"Manipulate" is IMO one of those words which can get meaningless if you start applying it to every situation where one person tries to convince another by pushing their emotional buttons. You might as well say that Luke manipulated Vader in RotJ or that Han tried to manipulate Kylo in TFA.

Manipulation is about a malicious or ill intent, and however terrible Kylo's proposal was I didn't see anything malicious behind it.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Teo oswald on Fri 09 Feb 2018, 3:17 pm

@Kessel wrote:At first, I also was a little irritated by the “you’re nothing, but not to me” line when I heard about it (before seeing the movie). But after seeing the scene play out, I thought it worked in the context and with Adam’s delivery. It fits with Kylo’s state of mind (he’s not in a great place and he’s thinking Rey will react like he would in such a situation), but it’s clear he’s sincerely telling Rey she means something to him (aka she’s important to him).

I agree with @ZioRen, Kylo wasn’t trying to hurt Rey with those words; he was trying to reach her and make her see that he saw her as somebody, even if she wasn’t (in the context of the galaxy).  I also wish that there were more stakes in that scene for Rey to join Kylo, but the whole situation made it easy for Rey to say no, at that moment because her Resistance friends were in imminent danger and Kylo was ignoring her requests to stop the attack on them. So even if she wanted to talk to Kylo or find a way to reason with him, there was no time.

I wonder if the ”you’re nothing, but not to me” line may have worked better if Kylo had used “nobody” instead of “nothing.” After all, Rey already said her parents were “nobodies.” I think if Kylo had said, “you’re nobody, but not to me” or “you’re nobody in this galaxy, but not to me” it would have conveyed his feelings more accurately than “you’re nothing.” Maybe Rian continued with  “nothing” instead of switching to “nobody” since he’d already used, “you come from nothing”? Who knows...
@Kessel

personally "you are nothing" it gives more impact, it's harder to hear , it destroys your self
Rey has always heard the word "nobody" kylo had Rey there, saying that word was hard for him, infact "but not for me" it's a reassurance Smile
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Let The Past Die on Fri 09 Feb 2018, 3:53 pm

I've been thinking about the whole ' you're nothing, but not to me' scene. I tried to remember what my first thoughts were on first viewing.

If I recall I was still blown away by the fight, I think it's my favourite scene of the whole movie. I remember thinking how specific it sounded, ", you're nothing" etc, and how he got her to admit for herself her parents were nobody. When I first heard it, I recall thinking he was talking to us in the audience rather than Rey herself. I think that's because I went with a group of about 25, and the general excitement going in especially from the male contingent was who were Rey's parents. Therefore when that scene played, I'm thinking to myself, we'll that told you (my male friends) lot then Laughing

I also remember how lovely it was he said "but not to me". I'm still shocked that others see it in a negative way.

On second viewing, it became even more a romantic gesture, but in a typical Kylo way.

I certainly wasn't conscious of obvious manipulation, especially in the negative way that was being bandied about. If anything, when Rey starts to raise her hand to him, you could say she fooled him into thinking she was going to join him, maybe she did for a flicker but I think not, she was hurting and her face begins to change to one of resolve much like the end scene between them. She knew what she was going to do, that she was going to grab for the Lightsaber.

Again my first memories of that scene with the Lightsaber breaking I half. I was satisfied with as they just worked together harmoniously, and now in my mind the force couldn't decide between them, or that they were more equals, different from the snow fight. So I saw this as a positive for Kylo.
That whole throne scene has so much to dissect. I love everyone's take on it, it keeps making me reexamine my thoughts.


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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Kylo Rey on Fri 09 Feb 2018, 6:52 pm

@ZioRen wrote:
@Night Huntress wrote:I loved Kylo/Ben's proposal! And yes, it only works so well because of Adam's acting skills... the subtitles leaked a few day before the TLJ was officially release and I read those lines - it was so horrible! pale

But Rian knew exactly Adam can pull it off and he did! I have to say it's not only his acting it's also how he says it- his voice.
Hearing it with his German voice at first was a bit meh. The part about her parents being drunks comes off completely wrong- almost cruel.
I hated it... after I heard it with Adam's original voice it's different... still bad but not mean or mocking.

It would have been better (and a much bigger temptation for Rey) if the fleet weren't in immediate danger...
@Night Huntress

Agreed! When I read the script lines I was almost wondering if they were shooting endgame Reylo to pieces then and there. They really aren't nice lines without the acting context. But in context, and knowing the rest of the movie, it makes perfect sense and doesn't look so bad. Kylo isn't telling Rey that her parents were drunks just to hurt her, but because he values the truth when it comes to her and he wants her to (ironically, considering he can't do the same) let go of her past and realize that she's waiting for and mourning over parents who were terrible and aren't worth even one of her passing thoughts. He was trying to get her to be real with herself, which is why the claims that HE made up the backstory about her parents is ridiculous, ruins the point of the whole moment, and most of all undermines Rey's personal growth and arc. Even if it's not the full truth, Kylo believes it's the real truth and so does she. He's not lying to her in the least.

It wasn't "see, you're garbage like they thought", it was "Screw them and screw everyone else. You're 'nothing' in the context of this galaxy and its biggest players and stories but I know you're not nothing because I know you, and you know me, better than all of them, so let's build something new and stick it to them all."
@ZioRen

IIRC, when those subs leaked people were panicking and angry because those words do sound really harsh on paper. They are harsh in the movie too, but like you said, acting context is everything. One of my first immediate impressions when reading those lines were how similar the dialogue is to the Mustafar scene in ROTS and I haven't watched the prequels in years. It was almost like the dialogue was lifted wholesale from that movie. Then the "not to me" line was basically when the subtext became text and confirmation that Kylo has fallen in love with Rey. It also works much better in the context of the movie till that point too, after watching Rey and Kylo's connection develop and their intertwined journeys. He's not being intentionally manipulative or malicious; it comes from a place of genuine frustration and casting everything aside and starting fresh. But of course the way he words it is horrible because Kylo Ren doesn't know how to socialise with other human beings Very Happy. Huge credit to Daisy too, as she completely sells Rey's devastation and sadness with hardly any words perfectly. Her single "Ben?" as she turns around to face him is so heartbreaking in it's naive simplicity.

@nickandnora There is definitely something monstrous about it. You have the "creature in a mask" who himself admits that he's a monster. There's a lot of self-loathing and turmoil internalised within Kylo. His speech in the throne room brings to mind what this critic said:



It is twisted because of course he still remains on the Dark Side but there's also an element of Kylo wanting Rey to want him and accepting him as he is, complete in his monstrosity and all. Very gothic romance. Kylo also reminds me of Heathcliff with his selfish, self-destructive Byronic Hero tendencies although Rey is way more Jane Eyre with her strong moral compass (and an orphan) than Cathy Earnshaw. There's a beautiful quote in Jane Eyre that summarises Rey and Kylo perfectly:

"I have a strange feeling with regard to you. As if I had a string somewhere under my left ribs, tightly knotted to a similar string in you. And if you were to leave I'm afraid that cord of communion would snap. And I have a notion that I'd take to bleeding inwardly. As for you, you'd forget me."

But again, there's a beautiful dichotomy contrasting this with his more pure, tender moments with Rey and their naive, teenage innocence. It's definitely a ballsy romance to pull off but one that will remain memorable and stand the test of time (if also done well in IX).
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by MindAndMagic on Sat 10 Feb 2018, 7:26 am

@Saracene wrote:"Manipulate" is IMO one of those words which can get meaningless if you start applying it to every situation where one person tries to convince another by pushing their emotional buttons. You might as well say that Luke manipulated Vader in RotJ or that Han tried to manipulate Kylo in TFA.

Manipulation is about a malicious or ill intent, and however terrible Kylo's proposal was I didn't see anything malicious behind it.
@Saracene

Absolutely, not only does the word itself lose all meaning when used without thought (as with many ready-made phrases or comparisons like “a better love story than Twilight” as if that’s the universal reference point), but it’s also highly inaccurate because what we have here is the very opposite of manipulation. It is brutal honesty with no reservations or even tact, one of Kylo’s defining characteristics. This claim is usually repeated by those who already have a negative view of the character and naturally seek to nourish it by seeing an ulterior motive in his every action. Both movies have established the fact that despite his many sins, one thing Kylo is not is a liar (unlike Finn, interestingly enough). He cannot hide his emotion when Snoke talks about his father no matter how hard he tries, he can’t hide his shock, fear and fascination when Rey gets into his mind, he can’t not follow her to the forest when he has an emotional breakdown, he can’t help but reach out to touch her hand (takes off the glove immediately like the poor starved thing he is on the inside) and you can see it in his eyes full of longing that he is not trying to win her over by taking advantage of the vulnerability of the moment. He is not thinking about that. Kylo is incapable of concealing his true feelings (one of the reasons he wore a mask in the first place) let alone manipulate anyone else. It’s a ridiculous notion really. The truth is, Kylo was equal portions terrified and frustrated  when he realised Rey will say no because he knew he was lost without her. The only route ahead was embracing the supreme leadership while otherwise his plan was pretty much for them to run away together and forsake both the FO and the Resistance. It was the “ruling the galaxy” part that turned Rey off as she understood Ben was not in the right frame of mind yet, ie not the Ben she saw in her vision of the future, the one she wants. Him prompting Rey to confront the truth about herself may seem insensitive on the surface, cruel even, but it is ultimately what she needs to overcome to grow and move forward. The second offer is as blunt, raw and desperate as you would expect from Kylo. He is trying to get Rey to discard the past (and succeeds), but the furious “Let go!” is directed more at himself than her and by the end it is him who is still haunted by the memory of those who love him and the realisation that he lost the one being he can connect to (we know it’s temporary story-wise, but he doesn’t).
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Darth Dementor on Sat 10 Feb 2018, 11:56 am

@Kessel wrote:At first, I also was a little irritated by the “you’re nothing, but not to me” line when I heard about it (before seeing the movie). But after seeing the scene play out, I thought it worked in the context and with Adam’s delivery. It fits with Kylo’s state of mind (he’s not in a great place and he’s thinking Rey will react like he would in such a situation), but it’s clear he’s sincerely telling Rey she means something to him (aka she’s important to him).

I agree with @ZioRen, Kylo wasn’t trying to hurt Rey with those words; he was trying to reach her and make her see that he saw her as somebody, even if she wasn’t (in the context of the galaxy).  I also wish that there were more stakes in that scene for Rey to join Kylo, but the whole situation made it easy for Rey to say no, at that moment because her Resistance friends were in imminent danger and Kylo was ignoring her requests to stop the attack on them. So even if she wanted to talk to Kylo or find a way to reason with him, there was no time.

I wonder if the ”you’re nothing, but not to me” line may have worked better if Kylo had used “nobody” instead of “nothing.” After all, Rey already said her parents were “nobodies.” I think if Kylo had said, “you’re nobody, but not to me” or “you’re nobody in this galaxy, but not to me” it would have conveyed his feelings more accurately than “you’re nothing.” Maybe Rian continued with  “nothing” instead of switching to “nobody” since he’d already used, “you come from nothing”? Who knows...
@Kessel

I can't help but think the "you have no place in this story" was a shot at the Rey Walker crowd. Most of the people who dislike TLJ always use Rey is not Luke's daughter as their primary reason for hating it and even say TFA is worthless now because of her NON Skywalker past. The fact that some demand the next installment to retcon it's predecessor shows Rian may have anticipated the anti's bitterness and refusal to accept Rey as she is?

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by SheLitAFire on Sat 10 Feb 2018, 11:58 am

@Darth Dementor wrote:
@Kessel wrote:At first, I also was a little irritated by the “you’re nothing, but not to me” line when I heard about it (before seeing the movie). But after seeing the scene play out, I thought it worked in the context and with Adam’s delivery. It fits with Kylo’s state of mind (he’s not in a great place and he’s thinking Rey will react like he would in such a situation), but it’s clear he’s sincerely telling Rey she means something to him (aka she’s important to him).

I agree with @ZioRen, Kylo wasn’t trying to hurt Rey with those words; he was trying to reach her and make her see that he saw her as somebody, even if she wasn’t (in the context of the galaxy).  I also wish that there were more stakes in that scene for Rey to join Kylo, but the whole situation made it easy for Rey to say no, at that moment because her Resistance friends were in imminent danger and Kylo was ignoring her requests to stop the attack on them. So even if she wanted to talk to Kylo or find a way to reason with him, there was no time.

I wonder if the ”you’re nothing, but not to me” line may have worked better if Kylo had used “nobody” instead of “nothing.” After all, Rey already said her parents were “nobodies.” I think if Kylo had said, “you’re nobody, but not to me” or “you’re nobody in this galaxy, but not to me” it would have conveyed his feelings more accurately than “you’re nothing.” Maybe Rian continued with  “nothing” instead of switching to “nobody” since he’d already used, “you come from nothing”? Who knows...
@Kessel

I can't help but think the "you have no place in this story" was a shot at the Rey Walker crowd. Most of the people who dislike TLJ always use Rey is not Luke's daughter as their primary reason for hating it and even say TFA is worthless now because of her NON Skywalker past. The fact that some demand the next installment to retcon it's predecessor shows Rian may have anticipated the anti's bitterness and refusal to accept Rey as she is?
@Darth Dementor

It just makes me think that maybe they changed the lines in this scene after they had already started filming? Because the script was finished before TFA came out so the huge Reywalker group hadn't even emerged yet. scratch

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sat 10 Feb 2018, 12:09 pm

@SheLitAFire wrote:
@Darth Dementor wrote:
@Kessel wrote:At first, I also was a little irritated by the “you’re nothing, but not to me” line when I heard about it (before seeing the movie). But after seeing the scene play out, I thought it worked in the context and with Adam’s delivery. It fits with Kylo’s state of mind (he’s not in a great place and he’s thinking Rey will react like he would in such a situation), but it’s clear he’s sincerely telling Rey she means something to him (aka she’s important to him).

I agree with @ZioRen, Kylo wasn’t trying to hurt Rey with those words; he was trying to reach her and make her see that he saw her as somebody, even if she wasn’t (in the context of the galaxy).  I also wish that there were more stakes in that scene for Rey to join Kylo, but the whole situation made it easy for Rey to say no, at that moment because her Resistance friends were in imminent danger and Kylo was ignoring her requests to stop the attack on them. So even if she wanted to talk to Kylo or find a way to reason with him, there was no time.

I wonder if the ”you’re nothing, but not to me” line may have worked better if Kylo had used “nobody” instead of “nothing.” After all, Rey already said her parents were “nobodies.” I think if Kylo had said, “you’re nobody, but not to me” or “you’re nobody in this galaxy, but not to me” it would have conveyed his feelings more accurately than “you’re nothing.” Maybe Rian continued with  “nothing” instead of switching to “nobody” since he’d already used, “you come from nothing”? Who knows...
@Kessel

I can't help but think the "you have no place in this story" was a shot at the Rey Walker crowd. Most of the people who dislike TLJ always use Rey is not Luke's daughter as their primary reason for hating it and even say TFA is worthless now because of her NON Skywalker past. The fact that some demand the next installment to retcon it's predecessor shows Rian may have anticipated the anti's bitterness and refusal to accept Rey as she is?
@Darth Dementor

It just makes me think that maybe they changed the lines in this scene after they had already started filming? Because the script was finished before TFA came out so the huge Reywalker group hadn't even emerged yet. scratch
@SheLitAFire

It's either that, or they already predicted/expected the Rey's Parentage Mystery Box/Reylated to be huge things going into TLJ.

Someone at LF wanted the Reywalker red herrings...considering that those teases continued until the TLJ marketing really ramped up. We theorized here a while back that LF wanted to keep the Reywalker/Reylated speculation going as an easy way for them to hide Reylo in plain sight.
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