The Last Jedi General Discussion

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by snufkin on Wed 14 Feb 2018 - 14:11

Thought this was a very even handed analysis which recognizes both how their feelings/attraction to one another intensify over the story but also about how his inability to let go of his entitlement and the hubris bred by the myth of the family legacy is his downfall. At least for now. Also great to read because it recognizes how Rey becomes the Goddess archetype with Kylo and how their intertwined fates is bound up in the Force and finding Balance. And I'd argue that his "long way around" comment is exactly what the filmmakers are doing. We had a cliffhanger at the end of ESB of whether or not Han would survive and how his friends could find/free him. Which is the opening act and then the fire goes out of the engine for he and Leia's relationship. Considering how much the filmmakers have poured over the OT and PT for inspiration and context (and worked with the central screenwriter) and identify as ardent fans, they thought/debated about this type of cliffhanger too.

Star Wars: The Last Jedi Some Thoughts

The things I found most interesting about The Last Jedi nobody seems to be talking about. Like the Mirror scene with Rey multiplying herself, where she breaks through the glass wall to be stopped by herself.

It echoes the Luke training scene on Dagobah when he enters the cave to confront his fears only to discover Vader. Then, slicing Vader's head off with his laser sword, the mask explodes to reveal Luke's own face. Excellent foreshadowing for later in the movie.

But with Rey, her revelation has a different meaning. Whereas Luke couldn't understand the message the Dark Side was showing him, Rey knows that the Dark Side has deliberately withheld the answer she wanted.

Later she has to ask Kylo Ren for the answer. He ends up telling her without any resistance whatsoever.

And that brings me to the most interesting thing about these films. Kylo Ren treats Rey like she's the embodiment of the Goddess. All the way back in Episode 7, right after torturing Poe till he's bleeding out of his eyes and ears, Kylo Ren refuses to harm Rey.

During their fight in the forest at the end of Force Awakens, he offers to train her, even as they're mid-duel (a grudge match of wills, if you please).

Then, in this film, they share a bond through the Force that allows them not only to see one another but to feel one another.

Although Rey Refused Kylo's Offer to rule the galaxy as his equal, he looks genuinely hurt by her unwillingness to take him up on his offer. He even yells at her to let it all go. To let the past die, so they can rebuild something new.

She is saddened by the fact he still only desires power rather than peace, which is true balance.

Unable to persuade the other, they struggle for the lightsaber and it explodes sending them both flying backward. Ren is rendered unconscious and Rey escapes. The interesting thing, however, is that they fought over the saber at all. Ren still had his red lightsaber. He could have easily struck Rey down. He’s trained. She’s not. And this time he not wounded, yet she is. Instead, he tries to stop her from leaving rather than kill her outright.

Also note that each time they mind-link, they catch each other at their most vulnerable. When he’s getting mended up by the medical droid. When she's sitting in bed. When he's getting undressed. When she’s alone watching the ocean.

At the very end, when he's reaching out to find her...you can’t help but wonder. Does he search his feelings for her because he wants to locate the Rebels whereabouts, or because he's worried about her because he has feelings for her?

If the filmmakers are developing a romance for these unlikely star-crossed lovers, they’re taking the long way around. Rey still resents Kylo Ren for killing Han Solo, who Ren rightly noted she viewed as a father figure. "He'll only disappoint you," Kylo said to her in TFA.

But it's Ren who has disappointed Rey this time around, by choosing the Dark Side over her.
As The Last Jedi really doesn't have any cliffhanger, and the story is largely about individual failures, the story could go anywhere from here, really. But I personally would love to see Kylo Ren redeemed in the eyes of Rey. And, yes, I want them to rule the Galaxy together. Maybe not as lovers. But as two parts of one whole--the balanced Force--they would provide an equilibrium for what may come.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by snufkin on Wed 14 Feb 2018 - 16:17

Another good one from Film Freak Central

The Last Jedi is about--most of all, then--self-determination. It destroys the idea of destiny and the notion that this story is bound to the Skywalker family. It's about becoming comfortable in your skin: not by birthright, but through struggle, pain, perseverance; by making the good decision at the right time; and by hope. It values leadership and temperance. "Wisdom" isn't a word said with scorn. What's fascinating to me is that Luke shares the same worldview as Ben: they both want to eradicate the past. Luke wants to because it's painful and he's full of regret and shame. He's uncomfortable with his reputation, which becomes a refrain in Finn's initial reactions to Rose's fawning recognition of him. Ben wants to because of his own regrets and shame, and then the belief that the future belongs to him. The past is an uncomfortable burden, so he plucks it out. He thinks he's found an ideological partner in Rey, who should also be ashamed of her past, he thinks, growing up as nothing, nowhere. Maybe he has found one. Luke seeks to burn it all down. He's stopped, but just for a moment and for a different purpose than is first apparent. He hasn't changed much from the kid always looking towards the future. It's his greatest flaw and his greatest strength. Ben's, too, maybe. Hard to say. For a glimpse of what Johnson thinks about the past, catch what's in a storage drawer at the very end in the belly of the Millennium Falcon.

There's a frontier quality to the picture that's extraordinary and raises the idea that if The Last Jedi is a western, then it truly believes we're in transition, perhaps, and there's reason not to despair. I love Ben and General Hux (Domhnall Gleeson). I love the samurai influences of Snoke's Praetorian Guard and a final showdown borrowed from Sanjuro and shot like a Sergio Leone standoff against an impossible backdrop of machines of war. I love the movie's courage and its honour. I love how much it loves its characters. I love that it so loves Star Wars that it challenges the series to be elevated in its ideas and its images. There's a double sunrise set to a familiar John Williams motif. When Rey first wields Anakin's lightsaber, her gorgeous theme rises up like the lump in my throat. The Last Jedi feels like something entirely new: a shot across the bow in the form of a message of peace and acceptance. A leap of faith. Luke never gets to teach his third lesson to Rey, but I think he teaches it to us. By being easily the most unconventional film in the octet, The Last Jedi underscores exactly what Star Wars was always about. Hope. We need it now more than ever.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by KnightsofReylo_2015 on Wed 14 Feb 2018 - 17:00

I hope this is the right place to post this...Mods please move if not Smile

So, for  Love day one gift from my BF was a gift certificate to Amazon so I could pre-order TLJ since it isn't available to buy yet (he's so sweet!). So, I just went to place my pre-order and after I ordered,  I scrolled down and noticed that they have listed under the "product details" section that the starring roles were: Daisy Ridley and Tom Hardy?! Um, no. No Mention of Mark Hamill in this section either (although it is correct in the ordering section). Tom Hardy though?  I mean I knew he was supposed to play a storm trooper, but I also heard his part was completely cut out of the movie too.  Either way, Amazon got it way wrong! Rolling Eyes





BTW...the comments section have a few nice Reylo peeps chiming in...that warmed my heart on this valentine's day!
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Teo oswald on Wed 14 Feb 2018 - 17:22

@snufkin wrote:Thought this was a very even handed analysis which recognizes both how their feelings/attraction to one another intensify over the story but also about how his inability to let go of his entitlement and the hubris bred by the myth of the family legacy is his downfall. At least for now. Also great to read because it recognizes how Rey becomes the Goddess archetype with Kylo and how their intertwined fates is bound up in the Force and finding Balance. And I'd argue that his "long way around" comment is exactly what the filmmakers are doing. We had a cliffhanger at the end of ESB of whether or not Han would survive and how his friends could find/free him. Which is the opening act and then the fire goes out of the engine for he and Leia's relationship. Considering how much the filmmakers have poured over the OT and PT for inspiration and context (and worked with the central screenwriter) and identify as ardent fans, they thought/debated about this type of cliffhanger too.

Star Wars: The Last Jedi Some Thoughts

The things I found most interesting about The Last Jedi nobody seems to be talking about. Like the Mirror scene with Rey multiplying herself, where she breaks through the glass wall to be stopped by herself.

It echoes the Luke training scene on Dagobah when he enters the cave to confront his fears only to discover Vader. Then, slicing Vader's head off with his laser sword, the mask explodes to reveal Luke's own face. Excellent foreshadowing for later in the movie.

But with Rey, her revelation has a different meaning. Whereas Luke couldn't understand the message the Dark Side was showing him, Rey knows that the Dark Side has deliberately withheld the answer she wanted.

Later she has to ask Kylo Ren for the answer. He ends up telling her without any resistance whatsoever.

And that brings me to the most interesting thing about these films. Kylo Ren treats Rey like she's the embodiment of the Goddess. All the way back in Episode 7, right after torturing Poe till he's bleeding out of his eyes and ears, Kylo Ren refuses to harm Rey.

During their fight in the forest at the end of Force Awakens, he offers to train her, even as they're mid-duel (a grudge match of wills, if you please).

Then, in this film, they share a bond through the Force that allows them not only to see one another but to feel one another.

Although Rey Refused Kylo's Offer to rule the galaxy as his equal, he looks genuinely hurt by her unwillingness to take him up on his offer. He even yells at her to let it all go. To let the past die, so they can rebuild something new.

She is saddened by the fact he still only desires power rather than peace, which is true balance.

Unable to persuade the other, they struggle for the lightsaber and it explodes sending them both flying backward. Ren is rendered unconscious and Rey escapes. The interesting thing, however, is that they fought over the saber at all. Ren still had his red lightsaber. He could have easily struck Rey down. He’s trained. She’s not. And this time he not wounded, yet she is. Instead, he tries to stop her from leaving rather than kill her outright.

Also note that each time they mind-link, they catch each other at their most vulnerable. When he’s getting mended up by the medical droid. When she's sitting in bed. When he's getting undressed. When she’s alone watching the ocean.

At the very end, when he's reaching out to find her...you can’t help but wonder. Does he search his feelings for her because he wants to locate the Rebels whereabouts, or because he's worried about her because he has feelings for her?

If the filmmakers are developing a romance for these unlikely star-crossed lovers, they’re taking the long way around. Rey still resents Kylo Ren for killing Han Solo, who Ren rightly noted she viewed as a father figure. "He'll only disappoint you," Kylo said to her in TFA.

But it's Ren who has disappointed Rey this time around, by choosing the Dark Side over her.
As The Last Jedi really doesn't have any cliffhanger, and the story is largely about individual failures, the story could go anywhere from here, really. But I personally would love to see Kylo Ren redeemed in the eyes of Rey. And, yes, I want them to rule the Galaxy together. Maybe not as lovers. But as two parts of one whole--the balanced Force--they would provide an equilibrium for what may come.
@Snufkin

I fully agree with all that is written, however I can not say that the relationship between Kylo and Rey will be platonic or in friendship because both have proved to have feelings of attraction towards the other. already governing the galaxy together is a declaration of love
they arrived on a point of no return , Love or nothing Smile
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by thescavenger on Fri 16 Feb 2018 - 3:39

@KnightsofReylo_2015 wrote:I hope this is the right place to post this...Mods please move if not Smile

So, for  Love day one gift from my BF was a gift certificate to Amazon so I could pre-order TLJ  since it isn't available to buy yet (he's so sweet!). So, I just went to place my pre-order and after I ordered,  I scrolled down and noticed that they have listed under the "product details" section that the starring roles were: Daisy Ridley and Tom Hardy?! Um, no. No Mention of Mark Hamill in this section either (although it is correct in the ordering section). Tom Hardy though?  I mean I knew he was supposed to play a storm trooper, but I also heard his part was completely cut out of the movie too.  Either way, Amazon got it way wrong! Rolling Eyes





BTW...the comments section have a few nice Reylo peeps chiming in...that warmed my heart on this valentine's day!
@KnightsofReylo_2015

That's actually quite funny. Star Wars starring Tom Hardy in a lead role would be quite a different film.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by KnightsofReylo_2015 on Fri 16 Feb 2018 - 11:59

@thescavenger wrote:
@KnightsofReylo_2015 wrote:I hope this is the right place to post this...Mods please move if not Smile

So, for  Love day one gift from my BF was a gift certificate to Amazon so I could pre-order TLJ  since it isn't available to buy yet (he's so sweet!). So, I just went to place my pre-order and after I ordered,  I scrolled down and noticed that they have listed under the "product details" section that the starring roles were: Daisy Ridley and Tom Hardy?! Um, no. No Mention of Mark Hamill in this section either (although it is correct in the ordering section). Tom Hardy though?  I mean I knew he was supposed to play a storm trooper, but I also heard his part was completely cut out of the movie too.  Either way, Amazon got it way wrong! Rolling Eyes





BTW...the comments section have a few nice Reylo peeps chiming in...that warmed my heart on this valentine's day!
@KnightsofReylo_2015

That's actually quite funny. Star Wars starring Tom Hardy in a lead role would be quite a different film.
@thescavenger

Agreed!  As much as I like Tom Hardy...he's no Adam driver! H-beating
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Saracene on Fri 16 Feb 2018 - 15:50

Just randomly thinking about Poe's arc in TLJ, I think it would have played so much better if, at the end of his little mutiny, instead of Leia and Holdo cooing over him Poe was actually held in disgrace. And *then* he had a chance to redeem himself on Crait by leading the Resistance to survival. A missed opportunity for stronger drama IMO.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Teo oswald on Fri 16 Feb 2018 - 17:30

did you see this Smile

Spoiler:








Credit to @darth-ladyren for the second image.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Dar-ren19 on Fri 16 Feb 2018 - 21:30

@Saracene I completely agree. In fact, that scene along with the last scene in TLJ to me smacked of the scenes in almost every Star Trek episode (the series with Kirk and Spock) wherein -- even after dramatic turns that promised to change the trajectory of the narrative and perhaps that of a character or two -- the crew was smiling and laughing into the fade.

To me, there is a certain sense of narrative failure there and I wish Rian Johnson had been brave enough to end things on a much more dire note, a la TESB. But that's okay. Other people's mileage may vary and I'm fine with that.


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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Dar-ren19 on Fri 16 Feb 2018 - 21:31

@Teo oswald nice! thank you! where is it from, btw? which magazine?
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by nickandnora on Fri 16 Feb 2018 - 21:41

So guys, I just noticed the weirdest, coolest thing that may not mean anything, but really actually might...

Rule of Three, right? I was reminded of it because I was talking about the three masked characters in TFA (Finn, Rey, and Kylo Ren).

TFA: Kylo, Rey and Finn are in the woods together. Finn and Kylo fight, and Finn is knocked to the ground, his cheek pressed up against it (this is going to be significant in a second). He remains there, unconscious, in this position, for the rest of the scene. Rey and Kylo have their beautiful fairytale dance (ie. lightsaber fight). They're kind of in balance for a portion of it, but when Rey overpowers Kylo, a catastrophic event occurs (Starkiller base implodes) and the ground splits them apart.

TLJ: Kylo, Rey, and Finn are on the Supremacy at the same time (unbeknownst to them). Kylo and Rey duel against Snoke. Finn is shortly thereafter in the process of getting caught by Phasma. It looks like Rey and Kylo are going to unite, but obviously that doesn't go according to plan. They battle over the lightsaber, a catastrophic event occurs (Supremacy splitting), and the lightsaber breaks and splits Kylo/Rey apart. Now, where is Finn during this event? In the exact same position he was in in TFA, cheek pressed to the ground at the exact same location that Rey are Kylo are at!

Dude... I mean, that is a weird coincidence, right? We've picked up on the fact that twice now the Force has split Rey and Kylo up when they were at odds with each other, but did anyone pick up on that fact that, both times, Finn was there lying on the ground where they were in a very specific position? Or am I just super slow on the uptake?

Rule of three, you guys. Third time's a charm. Is this going to repeat in IX? Is the Force trying to engineer a specific set of circumstances and has thus far failed? To what effect?

I'm like... insanely intrigued by this.

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by snufkin on Fri 16 Feb 2018 - 23:20

@nickandnora I can't find the exact quote, but I remember waaaaaay back in the Archives somewhere is a prediction by @FrolickingFizzgig that the confrontation in the forest will be repeated in the 3rd film. Centering on those 3 characters meeting again under different circumstances with the larger fate of the Galaxy hanging in the balance. As an aside, his whole opening line on Rey about her eyes in that night in the forest, it's like way to 3rd wheel Finn even more.

Speaking of the Archives, the group watch of TFA when the home video release came out is interesting to read for the reviews. Gold Stars to the predictions made by:

1.  @Darth Dementor prediction of what could happen with "Bring her to meeeee."

In fact before Snoke found out about her power levels he might have wanted Kylo to kill Rey because he sensed his students compassion for her. Making Ben kill Rey may have been another test Snoke would've made him do to prove his dark allegiance. It's a theory but a good one.

2. @Irina de France about a team up (which Rian just confirmed was meant to be like a "back alley brawl" between the two of them and the PGs)

Rey the Streetfighter Girl confirmed.

I can just picture her and Kylo getting in brawl fights. He’s a scoundrel’s son, after all.


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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Teo oswald on Sat 17 Feb 2018 - 2:29

@Dar-ren19

Star Wars The Last Jedi The Visual Dictionary
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by giaciak2 on Sat 17 Feb 2018 - 4:01

@TeoOswald thank you for this image. What do you think about ?.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by giaciak2 on Sat 17 Feb 2018 - 4:07

@snufkin I thought the same thing. In the scene where Rey lifts the stones. The voice says the battle and frames Finn. Moreover, the only one to manipulate Rey's sword in addition to Kylo is Finn. Turn it on and use it in TFA. I wondered if he too. Somehow. It was linked to the drawing of force. The triangle is Rey-Ben as lovers, Finn will be Uncle Luke who helps the couple
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Teo oswald on Sat 17 Feb 2018 - 8:49

@giaciak2

I focused mainly on kylo's room and I must say that it is quite illuminated, more than my room without a doubt Smile joking aside, it is incredible that he has an isolated room to meditate because I believed that meditation was a typical jedi technique and instead he used it. this says a lot about his speech "I belong to the dark side" also ,  eliminate the external sound concentrates more  that's why , when Rey and Kylo touched their fingers,  he managed to get into her world and stay there for a while. It takes concentration. I do not say it's because of the room, but if you're quiet in your place it's easier to concentrate Smile

now I'm thinking of Luke when he tries to contact Leia using force in Episode VIII I think of Kylo in his room sitting on the ground concentrating to connect with Rey without anyone disturbing him Smile
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by giaciak2 on Sat 17 Feb 2018 - 9:26

@TeoOswald Fantastic ! You are always right !
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Teo oswald on Sat 17 Feb 2018 - 11:01

@giaciak2

do not make me blush Shy however I'm glad you consider what I say. WinksD
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Kylo Rey on Sat 17 Feb 2018 - 17:35

YOUNG SOLO INDEED

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 17 Feb 2018 - 18:06

@Kylo Rey wrote:YOUNG SOLO INDEED

@Kylo Rey

Holy crap! I thought that mouth thing was about showing that Kylo is really just a goofball and not an evil dude at all ... But wow! You know that Adam totally watched HF and CF's performances and found little affects from them that he could incorporate into his performance. Such a smart and thorough actor! Very Happy
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Kylo Rey on Sat 17 Feb 2018 - 18:24

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Kylo Rey wrote:YOUNG SOLO INDEED

@Kylo Rey

Holy crap! I thought that mouth thing was about showing that Kylo is really just a goofball and not an evil dude at all ... But wow! You know that Adam totally watched HF and CF's performances and found little affects from them that he could incorporate into his performance.  Such a smart and thorough actor! Very Happy
@SoloSideCousin

I hate to say I told you so... but I told you so Cool (this was before I saw this gif set which was only made today):

@Kylo Rey wrote:The do have differences but share a few similarities as mentioned above. Not only that, but I feel like Driver studied Ford's mannerisms from the OT closely as their were a few moments in TLJ where I was like "this boy is definitely his father's son." For example, in the first force bond scene, when Kylo commands Rey to bring Luke Skywalker to him, he has a really sheepish look on his face (does the mouth thing) which he tries to brush off smoothly in front of his girl when he realises it doesn't work. That's Han through and through. Little moments like that, his adorable slide (which again, calls back to Han's slide in ROTJ) and curiosity about how the FB worked humanised him as much as the more obvious stuff like taking off his helmet and getting to see his expressions.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Saracene on Sat 17 Feb 2018 - 19:26

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Kylo Rey wrote:YOUNG SOLO INDEED

@Kylo Rey

Holy crap! I thought that mouth thing was about showing that Kylo is really just a goofball and not an evil dude at all ... But wow! You know that Adam totally watched HF and CF's performances and found little affects from them that he could incorporate into his performance. Such a smart and thorough actor! Very Happy
@SoloSideCousin

Yeah I noticed the mouth thing too. Some actors just have certain mannerisms that carry over from movie to movie, but I haven't noticed it in Adam's other performances so it had to be a deliberate choice. I just haven't connected it to Han Smile
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Darth_Awakened on Sun 18 Feb 2018 - 2:43

@Kylo Rey wrote:YOUNG SOLO INDEED

@Kylo Rey

Thank you!

I have been thinking about that mouth expression for days because it looked familiar. Then yesterday I figured out what was the familiar in it and came with the same conclusion you did - but was too lazy to search for Han's gifs. I'am dead sure there were more of it than the one you just posted.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Riri on Sun 18 Feb 2018 - 5:56

Not sure if anyone noticed these parralels!








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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Kylo Rey on Sun 18 Feb 2018 - 8:37

@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@Kylo Rey wrote:YOUNG SOLO INDEED

@Kylo Rey

Thank you!

I have been thinking about that mouth expression for days because it looked familiar. Then yesterday I figured out what was the familiar in it and came with the same conclusion you did - but was too lazy to search for Han's gifs. I'am dead sure there were more of it than the one you just posted.
@Darth_Awakened

There is! Here: http://skywalkex.tumblr.com/post/170976197327/young-solo
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Likes : 4507
Date d'inscription : 2016-12-24
Age : 21
Localisation : England

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