The Last Jedi General Discussion

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Maria Antonietta on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 5:28 am

@MyOnlyHope wrote:I guess the thought that Lucasfilm might be too scared to "go there" never really got to me because I always kind of felt like they would develop the relationship on Rey's terms only. I expect that to continue in IX and really wouldn't want it any other way. The kiss, for example, I'm firmly in the camp who believes she has to be the one to initiate in... pretty much every way. The hand scene is so beautiful and effective for me partially because she is the one to reach out to him. The whole narrative is something of a female power fantasy. It always has been. Just to provide a possible example for the future. A clear emphasis has been placed on the moment of Rey and Kylo's separation in both VII and VIII with Rey being the one to look back at him (and look down from a position of greater power) in a heap on the ground. She has the high ground. Her looking back at him from the Falcon specifically has become a pattern for the third act to subvert. I would be very surprised to see IX not include a scene of Rey extending her hand to Kylo and inviting him with her onto the Falcon. The thematic and visual precedence is there, and once again, the development of the relationship is placed in her hands.

So far the writers have done a great job presenting Kylo as he is right now (a pathetic, miserable mess who can't stop wallowing in the dark/his own pain) as "beneath" Rey. I know some people don't like that idea because he's been so abused and mistreated, but the way I see it, it's really up to him to let go of his anger and resentment and earn his place in Rey's story by atoning and choosing to do good. Obviously ironic because he's the only Skywalker left in the Skywalker saga, not her. He's the only character who can right the wrongs of the past by choosing love over power. But then this nothing girl is what will give him the strength to do so. Again, female power fantasy.
@MyOnlyHope

Ok, they didn't "go there" but can I just say that finn and rose kiss is the ugliest of the saga? :/ it was a very kids romcom smooch ;_;
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Reynak on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 7:18 am

@ZioRen wrote:It being a female power fantasy in many ways is the real reason for the backlash from many male fans and likely the vehement denial of Reylo in some sectors too. This is a romance very much on Rey's terms, and Kylo is often presented as weaker than Rey, "beneath" (though I don't like using that word) her, and even somewhat submissive at times (as in every time he tries to assert dominance over Rey, it flips on him and he winds up on his knees before her by the end).

That's not going to sit well with a lot of people, and it's funny that I see it constantly compared to popular romance stories where the female character isn't as strong or in control, like Twilight and 50 Shades. They're trying to throw shade at the romance by comparing it to those "silly fantasies" that "silly women" enjoy even when it doesn't fit at all (and with the extra level of implying that those stories are also clearly poisoning women and making them weak-minded). It's condescending and ridiculous on multiple levels. Laughing
@ZioRen

Most males watch tons of action movies of questionsble quality, read on average less than women and less variety. It’s not that they don’t consume trash but they keep on deriding women for liking Twilight or 50 Shades. I don’t have an opinion about either because I haven’t read or seen them but this doesn’t mean I don’t love dark romaces, those two aren’t my cup of tea, that’s all. The problem is not reading/watching trash because dudes do just that as often as women or probably more often, the problem is that they feel entitled to set the standards of what is acceptable, for us, of course, not for them.

There have been many s*** bestsellers and blockbusters that made lots of money but they go on about how awful these two are like for ever just to make women seem stupid fangirls with poor taste. If many women want to see/read them it’s OK, everybody should be respected and able to enjoy what they want, even if it is trashy, to start with.

In fact they don’t have a problem with the quality of what we like, they have a problem with women empowerment in general. Girlish things, feminine things, are looked down on and women can be heroines only if they behave in a way these people ( and there are women among them) deem acceptable. As heroines they have to behave like a man would do and be bad*** as hell, not “girly” , overemotiomal or even realistic, if you ask me. Female heoroes can’t have any flaws either because they are supposed to set models for little girls whereas male heroes are even more successful if they are somewhat dark.

There are action movies where a guy kills people or even makes a living of that and nobody complains they get the girl and a happy ending. But TPTB are so intent on making heroines likable that they are devoid of flaws. This makes them flat as characters, without depth or nuance because the writers are afraid the character will be hated if made more human. And they may be right, they probably are, because fandoms are extremely hard on female characters and much more forgiving for male characters.

The hate on Kylo Ren is another example of this, he is hated because he has traits coded as feminine and this makes him be perceived as weak and whiny when he never complains in the movie, is wounded and goes on fighting and shows a lot of strength and power. If he was seen as bad*** his evil actions wouldn’t be a problem for fans. Think of Darth Vader, for instance, and there are many others.

They dislike him because the character doesn’t conform to the standards of masculinity males are used to expecting in fiction. Male characters are supposed to look a certain way, be self-possesed, show no weaknesses, no emotions and not to depend on a woman to be happy. Ben Solo isn’t like this, he feels real, he hesitates, has weaknesses, has been manipulated and controlled by Snoke and treats Rey as an equal. To make matters worse he is head over hills in love with her and she is the one in control in their dynamic.

Averge male fans tend to prefer FinnRey because they are adamant on ignoring the female gaze. They sympathise with Finn so Finn should get the girl. This is not about what Rey wants because they are unable to identify with Rey in this department as she is female. If they were able to see things through Rey’s eyes they’d realise she is into Kylo/Ben. He is the one who looks the part to be her LI in TFA and even more in TLJ, because Adam won’t be every woman’s type but he is made to look attractive in the ST. The make-up, the long hair, the clothes, the camera shots, everything sees to that. They also cast a guy whose looks may be unconventional but has appeared as a character women lust after on screen very often. Some may be surprised but many women find him sexy and he is more than able to act sexy and appear sexy on screen, which is what matters here.

He’s every bit the Byronic hero in TLJ and that’s hard to resist if you add acting chops, a tall well-built frame, beautiful voice, shiny long hair and expressive eyes. You may like his feautes or not but the rest is hard to disagree on, as much as they have tried with all those memes about shirtless Kylo.

Another thing that surprised me is all the fuss about a shirtless scene when female LI’s appear sexualized and scantily clad in most movies. People are used to the male gaze even for protagonists (like Lara Croft, for instance) but not to the female gaze. They looke for reasons why he appeared shirtlees for “no apparent reason” but if the genders were reversed we’d have never seen those comments. In fact we never see them.

Many fans get mad at Rey for being attracted to the guy they don’t approve of, not because they fear he will abuse her, but because they keep ignoring the female gaze = who Rey wants and desires. She wounded him, insulted him and broke his heart. If the genres were reversed nobody would fear the hero would be abused and many wound dislike it if he cut open the female villain’s face when she was unarmed. They are still looking for a male character cool enough to identify with, for many it’s Poe now so they ship her with him. This is hypocritical as hell because these same people are sometimes the ones who said she needs no man. Either she becomes the winning prize for their favorite or lives the life of a celibate jedi monk, not nun, because that would be too feminine.

All this is crazy and far from female friendly.


Last edited by Reynak on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 7:44 am; edited 5 times in total
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Maria Antonietta on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 7:23 am

@Reynak wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:It being a female power fantasy in many ways is the real reason for the backlash from many male fans and likely the vehement denial of Reylo in some sectors too. This is a romance very much on Rey's terms, and Kylo is often presented as weaker than Rey, "beneath" (though I don't like using that word) her, and even somewhat submissive at times (as in every time he tries to assert dominance over Rey, it flips on him and he winds up on his knees before her by the end).

That's not going to sit well with a lot of people, and it's funny that I see it constantly compared to popular romance stories where the female character isn't as strong or in control, like Twilight and 50 Shades. They're trying to throw shade at the romance by comparing it to those "silly fantasies" that "silly women" enjoy even when it doesn't fit at all (and with the extra level of implying that those stories are also clearly poisoning women and making them weak-minded). It's condescending and ridiculous on multiple levels. Laughing
@ZioRen

Males watch tons of action movies of extremely law quality, read on average less than women and less variety. It’s not that they don’t consume trash but keep on deriding women for liking Twilight or 50 Shades. I don’t have an opinionated about either because I haven’t read or seen but this doesn’t mean I don’t love dark romaces, those aren’t my cup of tea, that’s all. The problem is not reading/watching trash because dudes do just that just as often as women do or probably more often, the problem is that they free entitled to set the standards of what us acceptable, for us, of course, not for them.

There have been many s*** bestsellers and blockbusters and they go on about how awful these two are like for ever just to make women seem stupid fangirls with poor taste. If many women wanted to see/read them it’s OK, everybody should be respected and able to enjoy what they want, even if it is trashy, to start with.

In fact they don’t have a problem with the quality of what we like, they have a problem with women empowerment in general. Girlish things, feminine things, are looked downn on and women can be heroines if they behave in a way these people ( and there are women among them) deem accptable. As heroines they have to behave like a man would do and be bad*** as hell, not “girly” , overemotiomal or realistic, if you ask me. Females heoroes can’t have any flaws because they are supposed to set models for little girls whrereas male heroes are even more successful if they are somewhat dark.

There are action movies where a guy kills people or even is makes a living of that and nobody complains they get the girl and a happy ending. But TPTB are so intent on making heroines likable that they are devoid of flaws. This makes them flat as characters, without depth or nuance because the writers are afraid the charcter will be hated if made more human. And they may be right, they probably are, because fandoms are extremely hard on female characters and much more forgiving for male characters.

The hate on Kylo Ren is another example of this, he is hated because he has traits coded as feminine and thus makes him to be perceived as weak and whiny when he never complains in the movie, is wounded and goes on fighting and shows strength and power. If he was seen as bad*** his evil actions wouldn’t be a problem for fans. Think of Darth Vader, for instance, and there are many others.

They dislike him because the character doesn’t conform to the standards of masculinity males are used to expecting in fiction. Male characters are supposed to look a certain way, be self-possesed, show no weaknesses, no emotions and not to depend on a woman to be happy. Ben Solo isn’t like this, he feels real, he hesitates, has weaknesses, has been manipulated and controlled by Snoke and treats Rey as an equal. To make matters worse he is head over hills in love with her and she is the one in control in their dynamic.

They tend to pefer FinnRey because they are adamant on ignoring the female gaze. They sympathise with Finn so Finn should get the girl. This is not about what Rey want because they are unable to identify with Rey in this department because she is famale. If they were able to see things this through Rey’s eyes they’d realise she is into Kylo/Ben. He is the one who looks the part to be her LI in TFA and even more in TLJ, because Adam won’t be every woman’s tyle but he is made to look attractive, the make-up, the long hair, the clothes, the camera shots, everything sees to that. They also cast a guy whose looks may be unconventional but has appeared as a character women lust after on screen very often. Some may be surprised but many women find him sexy and he is more than able to act sexy and appear sexy on screen, which is what matters here.


He’s every bit the Byronic hero in TLJ and that’s hard to resist if you add acting chops, a tall well-built frame, beautiful voice, shiny long hair and expressive eyes. You may like his feautes or not but the rest is hard to disagree on, as much as they have tried with all those memes about shirtless Kylo.

Another thing that surprised me is all the fuss about a shirtless scene when female LI’s appear sexualized and scantily clad in most movies. People are used to the male gaze even for protagonists (like Lara Croft, for instance) but not to the female gaze. They looked for reasons why he appeared shirtlees for “no apparent reason” but if the genderd were reversed we’d have never seen those comments. In fact we never see them.

Many fans get mad at Rey for being attracted to the guy they don’t approve of, not because they fear he will abuse her, but because society they keep ignoring the female gaze = who Rey wants and desires. She wounded him, insulted him and broke his heart. If the genres were reversed nobody would fear the hero would be abused and many wound dislike it if he cut open the female villain’s face when she was unarmed. They are still looking for a male character cool enough to identify with, for many it’s Poe now so they ship them with him. This is hypocritical as hell because this same people are sometimes the ones who said she needs no man. Either she becomes the winning prize for their favorite or lives the kife a celibate jedi monk, not nun, because that would be too feminine.

All this is crazy and far from female friendly.
@Reynak

*INSERTS APPLAUSE GIF*
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by giaciak2 on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 8:07 am

guys i do not know if my post is okay here. I hope that google translator will help me. today I meditated on this thought. Darth Fener deserved to die to be redeemed. Kylo Ren can only be redeemed by living. If he or Rey dies. The other half will live unhappy. they have always been alone. If one dies, one returns to the starting point (half unhappy). We need a new hope also in the heart of a lot of sad boy who doesn’t know what love is. Star Wars could be also Love. True love. I LOVE REYLO
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Night Huntress on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 8:43 am

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by MyOnlyHope on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 9:05 am

@Reynak And the outlook toward storytelling you describe is exactly where interpretations like the example below come from. Granted this tweet is sarcastic, but it's frightening how many guys genuinely thought this way during the show's run.

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Kylo Men on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 1:30 pm

@Maria Antonietta wrote:

Ok, they didn't "go there" but can I just say that finn and rose kiss is the ugliest of the saga? :/ it was a very kids romcom smooch ;_;
@Maria Antonietta

Yes, but that's what they're going to do in Episode IX - the Finn-Rose-Rey love triangle. Because such passion needs to be built upon.

I mean, haven't you read that?

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Kylo Men on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 1:41 pm

[quote="Reynak"]
@ZioRen wrote:
Many fans get mad at Rey for being attracted to the guy they don’t approve of, not because they fear he will abuse her, but because they keep ignoring the female gaze = who Rey wants and desires. She wounded him, insulted him and broke his heart. If the genres were reversed nobody would fear the hero would be abused and many wound dislike it if he cut open the female villain’s face when she was unarmed. They are still looking for a male character cool enough to identify with, for many it’s Poe now so they ship her with him. This is hypocritical as hell because these same people are sometimes the ones who said she needs no man. Either she becomes the winning prize for their favorite or lives the life of a celibate jedi monk, not nun, because that would be too feminine.

All this is crazy and far from female friendly.

They are adamant that Rey have agency. As long as she picks the morally upstanding guy that they want.

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by ZioRen on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 1:52 pm

[quote="Kylo Men"]
@Reynak wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
Many fans get mad at Rey for being attracted to the guy they don’t approve of, not because they fear he will abuse her, but because they keep ignoring the female gaze = who Rey wants and desires. She wounded him, insulted him and broke his heart. If the genres were reversed nobody would fear the hero would be abused and many wound dislike it if he cut open the female villain’s face when she was unarmed. They are still looking for a male character cool enough to identify with, for many it’s Poe now so they ship her with him. This is hypocritical as hell because these same people are sometimes the ones who said she needs no man. Either she becomes the winning prize for their favorite or lives the life of a celibate jedi monk, not nun, because that would be too feminine.

All this is crazy and far from female friendly.

They are adamant that Rey have agency. As long as she picks the morally upstanding guy that they want.
@Kylo Men

Nobody minds when the male hero gets with the bad girl because they assume he can "handle" her. Nobody worries about his safety or wellbeing or mental health. No matter how powerful they make Rey and how capable, people will always look at her and see "victim". Kylo winding up at her feet at the end of every movie and all of the proof that they're on equal footing in power simply don't matter. I still think if their genders were flipped, absolutely nobody would be questioning that Reylo was romantic and would have picked up on it even in TFA. They also wouldn't be concerning themselves about Rey being a victim. It wouldn't even be a discussion. If anything, that discussion would probably flip harder to Kylo's end and nobody would be ignoring what he suffered at Snoke's hands.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Kylo Men on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 2:10 pm

[quote="ZioRen"]
@Kylo Men wrote:
@Reynak wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
Many fans get mad at Rey for being attracted to the guy they don’t approve of, not because they fear he will abuse her, but because they keep ignoring the female gaze = who Rey wants and desires. She wounded him, insulted him and broke his heart. If the genres were reversed nobody would fear the hero would be abused and many wound dislike it if he cut open the female villain’s face when she was unarmed. They are still looking for a male character cool enough to identify with, for many it’s Poe now so they ship her with him. This is hypocritical as hell because these same people are sometimes the ones who said she needs no man. Either she becomes the winning prize for their favorite or lives the life of a celibate jedi monk, not nun, because that would be too feminine.

All this is crazy and far from female friendly.

They are adamant that Rey have agency. As long as she picks the morally upstanding guy that they want.
@Kylo Men

Nobody minds when the male hero gets with the bad girl because they assume he can "handle" her. Nobody worries about his safety or wellbeing or mental health. No matter how powerful they make Rey and how capable, people will always look at her and see "victim". Kylo winding up at her feet at the end of every movie and all of the proof that they're on equal footing in power simply don't matter. I still think if their genders were flipped, absolutely nobody would be questioning that Reylo was romantic and would have picked up on it even in TFA. They also wouldn't be concerning themselves about Rey being a victim. It wouldn't even be a discussion. If anything, that discussion would probably flip harder to Kylo's end and nobody would be ignoring what he suffered at Snoke's hands.
@ZioRen

I have this debate with other SW fans on other sites, who say things like, why would she choose the murderous, evil yada yada yada over the good, friendly .... etc. And I have to say, she doesn't feel passionately about him. We don't choose mates rationally but irrationally. Ad I'd rather people have hard (non-violent) times sometimes than wake up every morning devoid of passion for the person next to them. It's the way things are and not the way things people wish they were.

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Maria Antonietta on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 2:43 pm

@giaciak2 wrote:guys i do not know if my post is okay here. I hope that google translator will help me. today I meditated on this thought. Darth Fener deserved to die to be redeemed. Kylo Ren can only be redeemed by living. If he or Rey dies. The other half will live unhappy. they have always been alone. If one dies, one returns to the starting point (half unhappy). We need a new hope also in the heart of a lot of sad boy who doesn’t know what love is. Star Wars could be also Love. True love. I LOVE REYLO
@giaciak2

Are you Italian? Darth Vader is called Fenner only here lol!
@Kylo Men wrote:
@Maria Antonietta wrote:

Ok, they didn't "go there" but can I just say that finn and rose kiss is the ugliest of the saga? :/ it was a very kids romcom smooch ;_;
@Maria Antonietta

Yes, but that's what they're going to do in Episode IX - the Finn-Rose-Rey love triangle. Because such passion needs to be built upon.

I mean, haven't you read that?
@Kylo Men

OH MY GOD SAVE US
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by giaciak2 on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 2:52 pm

@Maria Antonietta Ciao si sono Italiano . Yes I’m Italian.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Maria Antonietta on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 3:24 pm

@giaciak2 wrote:@Maria Antonietta Ciao si sono Italiano . Yes I’m Italian.
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Wink
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Reynak on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 4:19 pm

@ZioRen

I have this debate with other SW fans on other sites, who say things like, why would she choose the murderous, evil yada yada yada over the good, friendly .... etc. And I have to say, she doesn't feel passionately about him. We don't choose mates rationally but irrationally. Ad I'd rather people have hard (non-violent) times sometimes than wake up every morning devoid of passion for the person next to them. It's the way things are and not the way things people wish they were.

All of this is so true, and dudes know it is true when the protagonist is male. Passion is a must, without it a relationship is doomed. You can desire with passion someone who you first knew as a friend but you need that chemistry that makes you week on the knees. ST Rey feels that way for Kylo/Ben and not for Finn. Finn didn’t feel something intensely sexual and passionate for Rey either, maybe he’ll feel it for Rose, who looks at him the right way, as if he was the most handsome and fascinating man in the world, although she will take no s*** from him anyway, mind you.

Rey wants Ben Solo/ kylo Ren and she loses her senses at seeing him shirtless. If she saw any other guy without a shirt her reaction wouldn’t be the same. Dismissing this truth is nonsense. She has the hots for Ben Solo and no one else, he feels the same for her and they also share an unbreakable intimate connection and care for each other. How can anyone else get involved with either of them knowing they are bonded and want each other the way they do?


Last edited by Reynak on Mon 22 Jan 2018, 12:54 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Kylo Rey on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 5:32 pm

@Reynak wrote:@ZioRen

I have this debate with other SW fans on other sites, who say things like, why would she choose the murderous, evil yada yada yada over the good, friendly .... etc. And I have to say, she doesn't feel passionately about him. We don't choose mates rationally but irrationally. Ad I'd rather people have hard (non-violent) times sometimes than wake up every morning devoid of passion for the person next to them. It's the way things are and not the way things people wish they were.

All of this is so true, and dudes know it is true when the protagonist is male. Passion is a must, without it a relationship is doomed. You can desire with passion someone who you first knew as a friend but you need that chemistry that makes you week on the knees. ST Rey feels that way for Kylo/Ben and not for Finn. Finn didn’t feel something intensely sexual and passionate for Rey either, maybe he’ll feel it for Rose, who looks at him the right way, as if he was the most handsome and fascinating man in the world, although she will take no s*** from him anyway, mind you.

Rey wants Ben Solo/ kylo Ren and she loses her senses at seeing shirtless. If she saw any other guy without a shirt her reaction wouldn’t be the same. Dismissing this truth is nonsense. She has the hots for Ben Solo and no one else, he feels the same for her and they also share an unbreakable intimate connection and care for each other. How can anyone get involved with any of them knowing they are bonded and want each other the way they do?
@Reynak

Agreed. It's so obvious when you contrast it with her relationship with Finn in TFA. This is not even shipping bias, just what we've been presented with so far. Finn was into her and she did care about him, but it was more as a friend/family. She doesn't seem overly bothered when Finn leaves her at Maz's Castle and she gets quickly distracted by Ben's family lightsaber calling to her. Some people have said that Rey's feelings for Kylo in TLJ were developed suddenly, but that's simply not true. Hints of it were set up in TFA, even when they were more adversarial. This is her reaction when Kylo unmasks:



Obviously some of that was in part due to Kylo not being a literal creature in a mask but her looking him up and down and then looking away quickly as Kylo walks towards her shows that she wanted him/was attracted to him right from the very beginning. Rey's feelings for Kylo are more complicated than his for her as they have the added layer of him not being a good person and her being confused about being attracted to a "monster." It's more simple from his POV. I find it interesting to note how she stares into his eyes for a few seconds during their first bond scene and only then does she reach for her blaster. But eventually, she does give in and allows herself to connect with Kylo/Ben on an intimate level through her initiation. They say there is a thin line dividing love/hate and Reylo perfectly symbolises that. Kylo stirred up strong feelings in Rey in both TFA/TLJ on both ends of the spectrum. She has never been apathetic towards him and it's been passion filled all the way. Like you said, he's the only guy for her and no one else could possibly compete anyway due to the nature of their force powers, abandonment issues and connection.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Gemlake on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 10:12 pm

[quote="ZioRen"]
@Kylo Men wrote:
@Reynak wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
Many fans get mad at Rey for being attracted to the guy they don’t approve of, not because they fear he will abuse her, but because they keep ignoring the female gaze = who Rey wants and desires. She wounded him, insulted him and broke his heart. If the genres were reversed nobody would fear the hero would be abused and many wound dislike it if he cut open the female villain’s face when she was unarmed. They are still looking for a male character cool enough to identify with, for many it’s Poe now so they ship her with him. This is hypocritical as hell because these same people are sometimes the ones who said she needs no man. Either she becomes the winning prize for their favorite or lives the life of a celibate jedi monk, not nun, because that would be too feminine.

All this is crazy and far from female friendly.

They are adamant that Rey have agency. As long as she picks the morally upstanding guy that they want.
@Kylo Men

Nobody minds when the male hero gets with the bad girl because they assume he can "handle" her. Nobody worries about his safety or wellbeing or mental health. No matter how powerful they make Rey and how capable, people will always look at her and see "victim". Kylo winding up at her feet at the end of every movie and all of the proof that they're on equal footing in power simply don't matter. I still think if their genders were flipped, absolutely nobody would be questioning that Reylo was romantic and would have picked up on it even in TFA. They also wouldn't be concerning themselves about Rey being a victim. It wouldn't even be a discussion. If anything, that discussion would probably flip harder to Kylo's end and nobody would be ignoring what he suffered at Snoke's hands.
@ZioRen
 
Absolutely, especially the bolded part.  If TFA had followed George Lucas' orginal vision, and used Darth Talon as the villian, no fan boy would miss the signs between her and the Skywalker son.  Just putting the two in a room together would be enough.

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by ZioRen on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 10:19 pm

[quote="Gemlake"]
@ZioRen wrote:
@Kylo Men wrote:
@Reynak wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
Many fans get mad at Rey for being attracted to the guy they don’t approve of, not because they fear he will abuse her, but because they keep ignoring the female gaze = who Rey wants and desires. She wounded him, insulted him and broke his heart. If the genres were reversed nobody would fear the hero would be abused and many wound dislike it if he cut open the female villain’s face when she was unarmed. They are still looking for a male character cool enough to identify with, for many it’s Poe now so they ship her with him. This is hypocritical as hell because these same people are sometimes the ones who said she needs no man. Either she becomes the winning prize for their favorite or lives the life of a celibate jedi monk, not nun, because that would be too feminine.

All this is crazy and far from female friendly.

They are adamant that Rey have agency. As long as she picks the morally upstanding guy that they want.
@Kylo Men

Nobody minds when the male hero gets with the bad girl because they assume he can "handle" her. Nobody worries about his safety or wellbeing or mental health. No matter how powerful they make Rey and how capable, people will always look at her and see "victim". Kylo winding up at her feet at the end of every movie and all of the proof that they're on equal footing in power simply don't matter. I still think if their genders were flipped, absolutely nobody would be questioning that Reylo was romantic and would have picked up on it even in TFA. They also wouldn't be concerning themselves about Rey being a victim. It wouldn't even be a discussion. If anything, that discussion would probably flip harder to Kylo's end and nobody would be ignoring what he suffered at Snoke's hands.
@ZioRen
 
Absolutely, especially the bolded part.  If TFA had followed George Lucas' orginal vision, and used Darth Talon as the villian, no fan boy would miss the signs between her and the Skywalker son.  Just putting the two in a room together would be enough.
@Gemlake

Yep. If Darth Talon, or any young female villain really, had looked at the male protagonist and gotten close to him like how Kylo did to Rey in TFA, and if male protagonist had given her the 'elevator eyes' like Rey did when Kylo first took off his mask, everyone would have been like "hehehe she totally wants the 'D' and he's totally going to give it to her."
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by giaciak2 on Mon 22 Jan 2018, 7:01 am

[quote="ZioRen"]
@Gemlake wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
@Kylo Men wrote:
@Reynak wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
Many fans get mad at Rey for being attracted to the guy they don’t approve of, not because they fear he will abuse her, but because they keep ignoring the female gaze = who Rey wants and desires. She wounded him, insulted him and broke his heart. If the genres were reversed nobody would fear the hero would be abused and many wound dislike it if he cut open the female villain’s face when she was unarmed. They are still looking for a male character cool enough to identify with, for many it’s Poe now so they ship her with him. This is hypocritical as hell because these same people are sometimes the ones who said she needs no man. Either she becomes the winning prize for their favorite or lives the life of a celibate jedi monk, not nun, because that would be too feminine.

All this is crazy and far from female friendly.

They are adamant that Rey have agency. As long as she picks the morally upstanding guy that they want.
@Kylo Men

Nobody minds when the male hero gets with the bad girl because they assume he can "handle" her. Nobody worries about his safety or wellbeing or mental health. No matter how powerful they make Rey and how capable, people will always look at her and see "victim". Kylo winding up at her feet at the end of every movie and all of the proof that they're on equal footing in power simply don't matter. I still think if their genders were flipped, absolutely nobody would be questioning that Reylo was romantic and would have picked up on it even in TFA. They also wouldn't be concerning themselves about Rey being a victim. It wouldn't even be a discussion. If anything, that discussion would probably flip harder to Kylo's end and nobody would be ignoring what he suffered at Snoke's hands.
@ZioRen
 
Absolutely, especially the bolded part.  If TFA had followed George Lucas' orginal vision, and used Darth Talon as the villian, no fan boy would miss the signs between her and the Skywalker son.  Just putting the two in a room together would be enough.
@Gemlake

Yep. If Darth Talon, or any young female villain really, had looked at the male protagonist and gotten close to him like how Kylo did to Rey in TFA, and if male protagonist had given her the 'elevator eyes' like Rey did when Kylo first took off his mask, everyone would have been like "hehehe she totally wants the 'D' and he's totally going to give it to her."
@ZioRen

@ZioRen Twisted Evil Thumbs up Thumbs up
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Xylo Ren on Mon 22 Jan 2018, 5:52 pm

TUMBLR FANDOMETRICS

#1 Ship of the week, REYLO (sixth week in a row)

#1 Celebrity of the week, ADAM DOUGLAS DRIVER (fifth week)

#1 Movie of the week, THE LAST JEDI (sixth week in a row)



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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Riri on Mon 22 Jan 2018, 6:57 pm

Anyone notice just how close Ben was to Rey in this forcebond that she had to look up?


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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Moonjump05 on Mon 22 Jan 2018, 8:16 pm

@Xylo Ren wrote:TUMBLR FANDOMETRICS

#1 Ship of the week, REYLO (sixth week in a row)

#1 Celebrity of the week, ADAM DOUGLAS DRIVER (fifth week)

#1 Movie of the week, THE LAST JEDI (sixth week in a row)



@Xylo Ren

This amazed me, het ships rarely get that high on the list much less stay there for over a month.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Mon 22 Jan 2018, 8:24 pm

@Moonjump05 wrote:
@Xylo Ren wrote:TUMBLR FANDOMETRICS

#1 Ship of the week, REYLO (sixth week in a row)

#1 Celebrity of the week, ADAM DOUGLAS DRIVER (fifth week)

#1 Movie of the week, THE LAST JEDI (sixth week in a row)



@Xylo Ren

This amazed me, het ships rarely get that high on the list much less stay there for over a month.
@Moonjump05
How unusual would you say it is?
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Armadeus on Mon 22 Jan 2018, 10:25 pm

With regards to the discussion of fairy tales, I went back to Campbell:

Joseph Campbell wrote:the fairy tale of happiness ever after cannot be taken seriously; it belongs to the never-never land of childhood, which is protected from the realities that will become terribly known soon enough; just as the myth of heaven ever after is for the old, whose lives are behind them and whose hearts have to be readied for the last portal of the transit into night—which sober, modern Occidental judgment is founded on a total misunderstanding of the realities depicted in the fairy tale, the myth, and the divine comedies of redemption. These, in the ancient world, were regarded as of a higher rank than tragedy, of a deeper truth, of a more difficult realization, of a sounder structure, and of a revelation more complete.

The happy ending of the fairy tale, the myth, and the divine comedy of the soul, is to be read, not as a contradiction, but as a transcendence of the universal tragedy of man. The objective world remains what it was, but, because of a shift of emphasis within the subject, is beheld as though transformed. Where formerly life and death contended, now enduring being is made manifest—as indifferent to the accidents of time as water boiling in a pot is to the destiny of a bubble, or as the cosmos to the appearance and disappearance of a galaxy of stars. Tragedy is the shattering of the forms and of our attachment to the forms; comedy, the wild and careless, inexhaustible joy of life invincible. Thus the two are the terms of a single mythological theme and experience which includes them both and which they bound: the downgoing and the up-coming (kathodos and anodos), which together constitute the totality of the revelation that is life, and which the individual must know and love if he is to be purged (katharsis=purgatorio) of the contagion of sin (disobedience to the divine will) and death (identification with the mortal form).
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Moonjump05 on Tue 23 Jan 2018, 2:36 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Moonjump05 wrote:
@Xylo Ren wrote:TUMBLR FANDOMETRICS

#1 Ship of the week, REYLO (sixth week in a row)

#1 Celebrity of the week, ADAM DOUGLAS DRIVER (fifth week)

#1 Movie of the week, THE LAST JEDI (sixth week in a row)



@Xylo Ren

This amazed me, het ships rarely get that high on the list much less stay there for over a month.
@Moonjump05
How unusual would you say it is?
@FrolickingFizzgig

Extremely, I haven't been on Tumblr overlong, but the stuff that usually stays on top of that list is some gay YouTube couple or Kpop bandshipping and stuff like Voltron slash ships.

Reylo being on the top twenty ships last year was huge- there were only a few het ships.

Being a veteran shipper I am used to most all my fanfiction/fandom being inundated with slash, so a top ranking het ship is really unusual.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Riri on Tue 23 Jan 2018, 4:17 pm

I just saw this being posted on Tumblr so thought I would share here too!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nFzuvgyqyCE

So this is the soundtrack to the Cave scene and then subsequent hand-touching scene. However the official audio is far more dramatic during the hand-touch and the Force theme doesnt't appear to play? I just thought thats an interesting observation. I wonder why they're so different.

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