The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

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The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by DeeBee on Sat 03 Feb 2018, 8:54 pm

There's a thread to discuss this in TLJ section, but not in the Episode IX section..

Hope it's okay if I create a space for us to explore this topic for IX.
With the passing of Carrie Fisher in RL, it's self-evident that Leia cannot continue as the leader of the rebellion.
I'm finding the resistance heading into IX a little meh.. [Anyone else feeling like that?]
Maybe swapping ideas and engaging with it will get the imagination engaged again!

So what are some interesting scenarios for the resistance in IX?
Is there an alternative to Poe being leader?
Do you want Poe as leader? If so.. how?
Do you think it could be possible for Kylo/Ben to join the resistance? ever?
Do you see Rey as being central to the resistance?
Will the resistance revert back to the rebellion in IX? I prefer rebellion and rebel scum haaaa..

here is how the starwars databank describes the resistance:
"A small, secretive private military force, the Resistance was founded by rebel hero Leia Organa to monitor the actions of the First Order. Most New Republic power brokers tolerate the Resistance while regarding Organa and her fighters as dead-enders with an unfortunate fixation on the past. Organa’s cash-strapped movement relies on credits, ships and equipment quietly funneled to it from the few senators who share her concerns."

Seems to me they no longer fit this description... will keep an eye on the databank to see how this gets updated...

Here's an interesting article on how the use of 'resistance' rather than 'rebellion' in TFA was a deliberate choice..
http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/why-resistance-different-rebellion-star-wars-force-awakens I'll quote it here to make it easy!

Why Resistance is Different wrote:  Alot of the imagery may look the same, but don’t mistake the First order for the Empire — or the Resistance for the Rebellion.

In an interview with io9, Star Wars: The Force Awakens star Oscar Isaac (aka Resistance pilot Poe Dameron) delved into the verbiage director J.J. Abrams chose to use in the long-awaited Star Wars sequel. Isaac noted that the decision to change the names of these groups was done deliberately, with “Resistance” taking on a very different connotation from “Rebellion.”

Here’s an excerpt from his comments, where he also touches on the origin of his character Poe Dameron:

"Just think about the words. One is to rebel against, so it’s an offensive action. Resisting is on the defensive. So I think the big difference is that [The Resistance] is even more cornered ... The Resistance is everything to [Poe]. He comes from a line of Resistance fighters. He has pledged his total allegiance to the Resistance. He believes in The Force and he wants to take down the First Order. So he puts his life on the line at any given moment to do that."

Isaac makes a good point, and though they sound similar, “Resistance” is a bit different from the old language. Part of what made Star Wars so fun was the back-against-the-wall spin on the story. It sounds like Force Awakens will have that in spades.  

And we have this in TLJ (during Luke and Kylo's final confrontation):
Luke: I failed you Ben. I’m sorry.
Kylo: I’m sure you are!!! The resistance is dead! The war is over! And when I kill you. I will have killed the last Jedi!
Luke: Amazing. Every word of what you just said, was wrong.
The rebellion is reborn today. The war is just beginning. And I will not be the last Jedi.

I'm wondering if the choice here to say 'rebellion' is a sign of what's ahead in IX... Sounds like Rebellion is at this point more appropriate?
And interesting that Luke is also foreshadowing that the war is really going to get going in IX!
Thoughts everyone?
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by 12 Parsnips on Sun 04 Feb 2018, 5:52 am

@DeeBee wrote:There's a thread to discuss this in TLJ section, but not in the Episode IX section..

Hope it's okay if I create a space for us to explore this topic for IX.
With the passing of Carrie Fisher in RL, it's self-evident that Leia cannot continue as the leader of the rebellion.
I'm finding the resistance heading into IX a little meh.. [Anyone else feeling like that?]
Maybe swapping ideas and engaging with it will get the imagination engaged again!

So what are some interesting scenarios for the resistance in IX?
Is there an alternative to Poe being leader?
Do you want Poe as leader? If so.. how?
Do you think it could be possible for Kylo/Ben to join the resistance? ever?
Do you see Rey as being central to the resistance?
Will the resistance revert back to the rebellion in IX? I prefer rebellion and rebel scum haaaa..

here is how the starwars databank describes the resistance:
"A small, secretive private military force, the Resistance was founded by rebel hero Leia Organa to monitor the actions of the First Order. Most New Republic power brokers tolerate the Resistance while regarding Organa and her fighters as dead-enders with an unfortunate fixation on the past. Organa’s cash-strapped movement relies on credits, ships and equipment quietly funneled to it from the few senators who share her concerns."

Seems to me they no longer fit this description... will keep an eye on the databank to see how this gets updated...

Here's an interesting article on how the use of 'resistance' rather than 'rebellion' in TFA was a deliberate choice..
http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/why-resistance-different-rebellion-star-wars-force-awakens I'll quote it here to make it easy!

Why Resistance is Different wrote:  Alot of the imagery may look the same, but don’t mistake the First order for the Empire — or the Resistance for the Rebellion.

In an interview with io9, Star Wars: The Force Awakens star Oscar Isaac (aka Resistance pilot Poe Dameron) delved into the verbiage director J.J. Abrams chose to use in the long-awaited Star Wars sequel. Isaac noted that the decision to change the names of these groups was done deliberately, with “Resistance” taking on a very different connotation from “Rebellion.”

Here’s an excerpt from his comments, where he also touches on the origin of his character Poe Dameron:

"Just think about the words. One is to rebel against, so it’s an offensive action. Resisting is on the defensive. So I think the big difference is that [The Resistance] is even more cornered ... The Resistance is everything to [Poe]. He comes from a line of Resistance fighters. He has pledged his total allegiance to the Resistance. He believes in The Force and he wants to take down the First Order. So he puts his life on the line at any given moment to do that."

Isaac makes a good point, and though they sound similar, “Resistance” is a bit different from the old language. Part of what made Star Wars so fun was the back-against-the-wall spin on the story. It sounds like Force Awakens will have that in spades.  

And we have this in TLJ (during Luke and Kylo's final confrontation):
Luke: I failed you Ben. I’m sorry.
Kylo: I’m sure you are!!! The resistance is dead! The war is over! And when I kill you. I will have killed the last Jedi!
Luke: Amazing. Every word of what you just said, was wrong.
The rebellion is reborn today. The war is just beginning. And I will not be the last Jedi.

I'm wondering if the choice here to say 'rebellion' is a sign of what's ahead in IX... Sounds like Rebellion is at this point more appropriate?
And interesting that Luke is also foreshadowing that the war is really going to get going in IX!
Thoughts everyone?
@DeeBee

I like your thoughts here, @DeeBee, especially the distinction between offense and defense.

I am also kind of meh about the Resistance at this point, and I haven't really given a whole lot of thought to the direction that it will go. One thing I have mulled over is the idea that's been floating around about how Poe interpreted Holdo's "We are the spark that will light the fire that will restore the Republic" as "We are the spark that will light the fire that will burn the First Order down." This seems to fit into that defense/Resistance v. offense/Rebellion position quite well: Holdo says we fight evil by establishing something good to counteract it; Poe says we fight evil by obliterating it.

If this is significant going forward, and Poe continues to lead with this mindset...it could get interesting. (Assuming, of course, that the Resistance/Rebellion in IX will consist of more than a couple dozen people--because at the end of TLJ they are so depleted they seem pretty much incapable of any kind of offensive action.) I can't see Rey being wholeheartedly on board with such a destructive goal, considering...Ben. Wink It will be interesting to see how Rey fits into the leadership dynamic, and whether her connection with Ben will be outed and cause conflict within the "good guys."

TBH, I would be most interested in seeing some kind of new way of conducting the business of the galaxy come about, rather than this continual war of good v. evil. (Not sure how you do "Star Wars" without it though, so we shall see.) If Ben and Rey do in fact bring balance to the Force, it would be intriguing to me to see that balance reflected in GFFA society.

But to go back to Luke's words for a minute...

Luke: I failed you Ben. I’m sorry.
Kylo: I’m sure you are!!! The resistance is dead! The war is over! And when I kill you. I will have killed the last Jedi!
Luke: Amazing. Every word of what you just said, was wrong.
The rebellion is reborn today. The war is just beginning. And I will not be the last Jedi.

I think these words can apply to the political/war situation, sure. But in my mind, they also apply personally to Ben Solo. Today he began to rebel [take the offensive against the oppression he lived under with Snoke. Will he continue to take the offensive against the darkness that has controlled so much of him?]. The war for his "soul" is just beginning. Luke will not be the last Jedi--it will be Rey...and Ben too?

Just some thoughts.  Smile
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by DeeBee on Sun 04 Feb 2018, 5:21 pm

@12 Parsnips wrote:
quote 12 parsnips replied to:

@DeeBee wrote:There's a thread to discuss this in TLJ section, but not in the Episode IX section..

Hope it's okay if I create a space for us to explore this topic for IX.
With the passing of Carrie Fisher in RL, it's self-evident that Leia cannot continue as the leader of the rebellion.
I'm finding the resistance heading into IX a little meh.. [Anyone else feeling like that?]
Maybe swapping ideas and engaging with it will get the imagination engaged again!

So what are some interesting scenarios for the resistance in IX?
Is there an alternative to Poe being leader?
Do you want Poe as leader? If so.. how?
Do you think it could be possible for Kylo/Ben to join the resistance? ever?
Do you see Rey as being central to the resistance?
Will the resistance revert back to the rebellion in IX? I prefer rebellion and rebel scum haaaa..

here is how the starwars databank describes the resistance:
"A small, secretive private military force, the Resistance was founded by rebel hero Leia Organa to monitor the actions of the First Order. Most New Republic power brokers tolerate the Resistance while regarding Organa and her fighters as dead-enders with an unfortunate fixation on the past. Organa’s cash-strapped movement relies on credits, ships and equipment quietly funneled to it from the few senators who share her concerns."

Seems to me they no longer fit this description... will keep an eye on the databank to see how this gets updated...

Here's an interesting article on how the use of 'resistance' rather than 'rebellion' in TFA was a deliberate choice..
http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/why-resistance-different-rebellion-star-wars-force-awakens I'll quote it here to make it easy!

Why Resistance is Different wrote:  Alot of the imagery may look the same, but don’t mistake the First order for the Empire — or the Resistance for the Rebellion.

In an interview with io9, Star Wars: The Force Awakens star Oscar Isaac (aka Resistance pilot Poe Dameron) delved into the verbiage director J.J. Abrams chose to use in the long-awaited Star Wars sequel. Isaac noted that the decision to change the names of these groups was done deliberately, with “Resistance” taking on a very different connotation from “Rebellion.”

Here’s an excerpt from his comments, where he also touches on the origin of his character Poe Dameron:

"Just think about the words. One is to rebel against, so it’s an offensive action. Resisting is on the defensive. So I think the big difference is that [The Resistance] is even more cornered ... The Resistance is everything to [Poe]. He comes from a line of Resistance fighters. He has pledged his total allegiance to the Resistance. He believes in The Force and he wants to take down the First Order. So he puts his life on the line at any given moment to do that."

Isaac makes a good point, and though they sound similar, “Resistance” is a bit different from the old language. Part of what made Star Wars so fun was the back-against-the-wall spin on the story. It sounds like Force Awakens will have that in spades.  

And we have this in TLJ (during Luke and Kylo's final confrontation):
Luke: I failed you Ben. I’m sorry.
Kylo: I’m sure you are!!! The resistance is dead! The war is over! And when I kill you. I will have killed the last Jedi!
Luke: Amazing. Every word of what you just said, was wrong.
The rebellion is reborn today. The war is just beginning. And I will not be the last Jedi.

I'm wondering if the choice here to say 'rebellion' is a sign of what's ahead in IX... Sounds like Rebellion is at this point more appropriate?
And interesting that Luke is also foreshadowing that the war is really going to get going in IX!
Thoughts everyone?
@DeeBee

I like your thoughts here, @DeeBee, especially the distinction between offense and defense.

I am also kind of meh about the Resistance at this point, and I haven't really given a whole lot of thought to the direction that it will go. One thing I have mulled over is the idea that's been floating around about how Poe interpreted Holdo's "We are the spark that will light the fire that will restore the Republic" as "We are the spark that will light the fire that will burn the First Order down." This seems to fit into that defense/Resistance v. offense/Rebellion position quite well: Holdo says we fight evil by establishing something good to counteract it; Poe says we fight evil by obliterating it.

If this is significant going forward, and Poe continues to lead with this mindset...it could get interesting. (Assuming, of course, that the Resistance/Rebellion in IX will consist of more than a couple dozen people--because at the end of TLJ they are so depleted they seem pretty much incapable of any kind of offensive action.) I can't see Rey being wholeheartedly on board with such a destructive goal, considering...Ben. Wink It will be interesting to see how Rey fits into the leadership dynamic, and whether her connection with Ben will be outed and cause conflict within the "good guys."

TBH, I would be most interested in seeing some kind of new way of conducting the business of the galaxy come about, rather than this continual war of good v. evil. (Not sure how you do "Star Wars" without it though, so we shall see.) If Ben and Rey do in fact bring balance to the Force, it would be intriguing to me to see that balance reflected in GFFA society.

But to go back to Luke's words for a minute...

Luke: I failed you Ben. I’m sorry.
Kylo: I’m sure you are!!! The resistance is dead! The war is over! And when I kill you. I will have killed the last Jedi!
Luke: Amazing. Every word of what you just said, was wrong.
The rebellion is reborn today. The war is just beginning. And I will not be the last Jedi.

I think these words can apply to the political/war situation, sure. But in my mind, they also apply personally to Ben Solo. Today he began to rebel [take the offensive against the oppression he lived under with Snoke. Will he continue to take the offensive against the darkness that has controlled so much of him?]. The war for his "soul" is just beginning. Luke will not be the last Jedi--it will be Rey...and Ben too?

Just some thoughts.  Smile
@12 Parsnips

Hi 12 Parsnips, great to hear your thoughts on this!

I really like your take on the bolded - that makes a whole lot of sense to me.. and shifting from a resistance to a rebellion does make sense of the new version of the spark/fire/burning things down...
I have seen another idea that Poe is maybe headed toward being too aggressive in IX as the resistance leader, and this change in the Holdo line could signify this. This is totally possible, we'll see.
From what I saw in TLJ it suggested he had learned the lesson that  a leader has to respect the lives of the people he sends into battle - and truly count the cost before attacking.. but there is nothing to stop IX starting with a reveal that no he hasn't quite learned that lesson yet Wink and I don't even think that would be retconning..

Hey interesting thoughts on Ben's rebellion starting that day - I like it! I think Kylo/Ben was rebelling against Snoke internally for a while but that day was the day he finally was able to take action. So in a sense you are right!

Yes!!!!! I agree, I'm thinking both Rey and Ben will eventually be Jedi - but not Jedi as known/defined through episodes 1-8, rather it will be balanced Jedi - focusing on neither extreme of the light/dark, as the original force users did. Non canon has referred to them as the Je'daii. [maybe it will be reintroduced into canon.. we shall see!]
Ben is ideally placed to restore this view of the force, and the view of it's use into the future... He has studied both the light and the dark. And we've been told a few times he is the focal point between the light and the dark. He has to be (IMHO) integral to the future of force users and the balance. Rey is a great counter balance to Ben because she has received training in really in neither the light nor the dark!

So all my thoughts here on the force and balance may seem out of left field when discussing the rebellion, but I think they are interconnected in fighting the war.
I think the balance of the force is linked to the war and the end of it. At the moment it's not entirely clear to me how this could work, but there are hints that the imbalance in the force has led to the wars...
I base this idea on what Lor San Tekka said in the Poe Dameron comics when discussing the Kazerath device, (which is canon..)
LST says: "the device is incredibly unique. It might imply a chapter in the grand history of the force when light and dark were not in opposition, but united... As you know, I have dedicated my life to gathering knowledge about the force. Both sides, light and dark. So many lives have been lost in their battle over the millennia -- but I think someday this fight could end. If they could work together, see that in many ways they are the same... perhaps the Kazerath is a path to that future..."

I share this quote because of what it says about the force and the war.. LST, based on his study of both sides of the force over the years, believes the light and dark are the cause of the wars... and their working together and uniting could bring the wars to an end.

The connection between the force and rebellion winning could be a super interesting area of internal rebellion conflict in IX - especially if Poe is focused on blowing things up and conventional warfare, and prioritises this over anything Rey and Kylo/Ben may need to do in order to bring balance to the force - this could be a great source of tension!
The force is more than just lifting rocks!!!! Rey can't just go out there with her laser sword and defeat the whole first order.. ahem..
This is similar maybe to how Hux views the force and the objectives of the FO maybe, it's completely underestimated in it's central importance.
Leia understood the importance of the force in a way others who are not force sensitive may overlook.. with Leia no longer leading the rebellion, there is a risk the force will not be given the priority it warrants.

Anyway, I've used up all my free SW time.. and gotta get on with my day and RL commitments.. sorry this is so long lol! bounce
Great to chat as always!
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by Kylo Men on Sun 04 Feb 2018, 5:25 pm

I find the idea of a new Resistance-First Order to be unappealing. First because it's ridiculous - the Resistance is down to 12 people at the end of TLJ. Second, because it's played out and derivative. Third, the Resistance are incompetent and boring. Fourth, they seem like the type of people who think men and women should sign a legal waiver every time they hug.

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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by JustMe on Sun 04 Feb 2018, 6:04 pm

I think that Finn will have a big part in the new Rebellion and may take over as the leader.  I forget whose meta I read or viewed that talked about how 3 characters in TFA were first introduced as wearing a mask.  This signifies that these characters will undergo a transformation.  Not only were Rey and Kylo first introduced wearing masks (Rey was wearing one while scavenging) but Finn was as well.  He was wearing his Storm Trooper mask.   Then, each character who will undergo a transformation needs to get a glimpse of their future if they don't make a change.   Rey sees a very old woman cleaning metal junk parts; If she doesn't leave Jakku, that is what what her fate is, to die there alone and of old age.  Kylo, I'm not sure what his fate is, but it seems that he will just be responsible for killing people but nothing more.  Finn got his glimpse of his fate when he saw his friend killed and his friend put his bloody handprint on his mask.  So, if Finn stayed, he was going to die like his friend.  So, Finn has big things in store for him, just like Kylo and Rey.  Perhaps Finn will go from lowly Storm Trooper, to advising the Resistance and helping out Rey, to possibly being a General or a big leader in the Rebellion.  Perhaps he could sway Storm Troopers to rebel  leave the First Order.

(I'm thinking the meta I watched on this was from Star Wars Connection on YouTube.  They have really good videos and one was about the visual storytelling in SW.)

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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by giaciak2 on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 6:35 am

I have read fantastic hypotheses.
My absurd ideas is ...
In interviews Adam describes Kylo. He says that Kylo thinks he's right. His vision is to end the war between resistance and empire. But at the end of TLJ the name is already different. Resistance becomes rebellion and for a while Empire was the First Order.
Kylo saw both sides. He is a senior military. We know that He thinks that First Order and Resistance are both wrong. Both kill. Both try to destroy the other side. Both are selfish (see Poe).
I believe that Kylo wants to create something new. An alliance that unites strength and men for the common good. He would clearly like to do it with Rey. In TLJ. It is not ready for a compromise. His idea of ​​destroying the past was wrong. Uncle Luke says everything in his speech. At the end of TLJ he is repentant, sad and lonely likes Anakin appears a second before receiving his mask. But Kylo is not Anakin, Rey is not dead. There is still hope. He is the hope to combine strength and bring peace. He will also be the supreme leader but does not have total control of the first order. He has not become a sith, and he wants to find a way to control his stupid rage. And conquer Rey. If a third threat arrived. If he is not (as seen) in agreement with the first order. If he wants Rey. He will meet her. I think he will join the resistance and ... I suppose ... Ben Solo will be the best who leads the galaxy to peace. I'm not sure it will be resistance or a new mixed order where everyone is united only by common good. Thinking about it, he is the only true leader who has studied enough to lead an army. His new faction could be be composed of a resistance group, a group of the first order (I don't know if in english is better say a part or a group, I means half of a side), civilians, part of knights Ren and Obviously, Rey ... his wife ;-)
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by SoloSideCousin on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 11:23 am

@Kylo Men wrote:I find the idea of a new Resistance-First Order to be unappealing. First because it's ridiculous - the Resistance is down to 12 people at the end of TLJ. Second, because it's played out and derivative. Third, the Resistance are incompetent and boring. Fourth, they seem like the type of people who think men and women should sign a legal waiver every time they hug.
@Kylo Men

Lol! Thank you. This is fantastic. Very Happy
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by SoloSideCousin on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 11:28 am

@12 Parsnips wrote:
@DeeBee wrote:There's a thread to discuss this in TLJ section, but not in the Episode IX section..

Hope it's okay if I create a space for us to explore this topic for IX.
With the passing of Carrie Fisher in RL, it's self-evident that Leia cannot continue as the leader of the rebellion.
I'm finding the resistance heading into IX a little meh.. [Anyone else feeling like that?]
Maybe swapping ideas and engaging with it will get the imagination engaged again!

So what are some interesting scenarios for the resistance in IX?
Is there an alternative to Poe being leader?
Do you want Poe as leader? If so.. how?
Do you think it could be possible for Kylo/Ben to join the resistance? ever?
Do you see Rey as being central to the resistance?
Will the resistance revert back to the rebellion in IX? I prefer rebellion and rebel scum haaaa..

here is how the starwars databank describes the resistance:
"A small, secretive private military force, the Resistance was founded by rebel hero Leia Organa to monitor the actions of the First Order. Most New Republic power brokers tolerate the Resistance while regarding Organa and her fighters as dead-enders with an unfortunate fixation on the past. Organa’s cash-strapped movement relies on credits, ships and equipment quietly funneled to it from the few senators who share her concerns."

Seems to me they no longer fit this description... will keep an eye on the databank to see how this gets updated...

Here's an interesting article on how the use of 'resistance' rather than 'rebellion' in TFA was a deliberate choice..
http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/why-resistance-different-rebellion-star-wars-force-awakens I'll quote it here to make it easy!

Why Resistance is Different wrote:  Alot of the imagery may look the same, but don’t mistake the First order for the Empire — or the Resistance for the Rebellion.

In an interview with io9, Star Wars: The Force Awakens star Oscar Isaac (aka Resistance pilot Poe Dameron) delved into the verbiage director J.J. Abrams chose to use in the long-awaited Star Wars sequel. Isaac noted that the decision to change the names of these groups was done deliberately, with “Resistance” taking on a very different connotation from “Rebellion.”

Here’s an excerpt from his comments, where he also touches on the origin of his character Poe Dameron:

"Just think about the words. One is to rebel against, so it’s an offensive action. Resisting is on the defensive. So I think the big difference is that [The Resistance] is even more cornered ... The Resistance is everything to [Poe]. He comes from a line of Resistance fighters. He has pledged his total allegiance to the Resistance. He believes in The Force and he wants to take down the First Order. So he puts his life on the line at any given moment to do that."

Isaac makes a good point, and though they sound similar, “Resistance” is a bit different from the old language. Part of what made Star Wars so fun was the back-against-the-wall spin on the story. It sounds like Force Awakens will have that in spades.  

And we have this in TLJ (during Luke and Kylo's final confrontation):
Luke: I failed you Ben. I’m sorry.
Kylo: I’m sure you are!!! The resistance is dead! The war is over! And when I kill you. I will have killed the last Jedi!
Luke: Amazing. Every word of what you just said, was wrong.
The rebellion is reborn today. The war is just beginning. And I will not be the last Jedi.

I'm wondering if the choice here to say 'rebellion' is a sign of what's ahead in IX... Sounds like Rebellion is at this point more appropriate?
And interesting that Luke is also foreshadowing that the war is really going to get going in IX!
Thoughts everyone?
@DeeBee

I like your thoughts here, @DeeBee, especially the distinction between offense and defense.

I am also kind of meh about the Resistance at this point, and I haven't really given a whole lot of thought to the direction that it will go. One thing I have mulled over is the idea that's been floating around about how Poe interpreted Holdo's "We are the spark that will light the fire that will restore the Republic" as "We are the spark that will light the fire that will burn the First Order down." This seems to fit into that defense/Resistance v. offense/Rebellion position quite well: Holdo says we fight evil by establishing something good to counteract it; Poe says we fight evil by obliterating it.

If this is significant going forward, and Poe continues to lead with this mindset...it could get interesting. (Assuming, of course, that the Resistance/Rebellion in IX will consist of more than a couple dozen people--because at the end of TLJ they are so depleted they seem pretty much incapable of any kind of offensive action.) I can't see Rey being wholeheartedly on board with such a destructive goal, considering...Ben. Wink It will be interesting to see how Rey fits into the leadership dynamic, and whether her connection with Ben will be outed and cause conflict within the "good guys."

TBH, I would be most interested in seeing some kind of new way of conducting the business of the galaxy come about, rather than this continual war of good v. evil. (Not sure how you do "Star Wars" without it though, so we shall see.) If Ben and Rey do in fact bring balance to the Force, it would be intriguing to me to see that balance reflected in GFFA society.

But to go back to Luke's words for a minute...

Luke: I failed you Ben. I’m sorry.
Kylo: I’m sure you are!!! The resistance is dead! The war is over! And when I kill you. I will have killed the last Jedi!
Luke: Amazing. Every word of what you just said, was wrong.
The rebellion is reborn today. The war is just beginning. And I will not be the last Jedi.

I think these words can apply to the political/war situation, sure. But in my mind, they also apply personally to Ben Solo. Today he began to rebel [take the offensive against the oppression he lived under with Snoke. Will he continue to take the offensive against the darkness that has controlled so much of him?]. The war for his "soul" is just beginning. Luke will not be the last Jedi--it will be Rey...and Ben too?

Just some thoughts.  Smile
@12 Parsnips

I agree with your whole post, but especially with the part about that Luke is talking about Ben in that speech. The shots to Poe, Finn and Rey are what the audience already expects.  They are a distraction from what Luke is really saying to Ben. Because Ben is everything. Ben is the one who resolves the Skywalker conundrum. Ben, being light and dark, is the "middle way" between Vader and the twins, and hopefully can create something new beyond this Empire/Rebellion world.
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by snufkin on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 3:09 pm

I've said it elsewhere, but when it comes to this part of the story agreed on the ZZZZZsss. Because:

1) The Rebellion itself in the OT is never a central plot point but the backdrop to the relationships and character arcs.

2) Give credit to Rogue One for actually doing a more credible job than either of the ST for showing the factions and compromises/dirty laundry in that type of organization. Versus what we've got here, which is just not that interesting to watch beyond Space Dern taking out the Supremacy and Paige's sacrifice. Rose is pretty much the only really compelling/interesting character on that side of the story.

3) I think some fans get a little too defensive/protective of this side of the plot line because the term itself has become the name of a political movement. Which is a million times more interesting, complex/dynamic, and far more worth of me being a stan and giving my time/attention/loyalty to. Versus here, where I still can't believe that Poe got nearly everybody killed and still ends up getting promoted back into a leadership position. Like this wasn't Dunkirk in space, this was somebody's hubris getting other people killed and in the end, "I like him, he's a troublemaker" and Poe learns a lesson about "preserving the light" (?!).

At least TLJ leaves both groups fractured and having lost resources/leadership at the end of the story. Hopefully we won't get The Beautiful Friendship Gang versus Kyle Ron and His Evil Boy Band for IX, like dear God I hope not. Even as a small child I'd be bored out of my mind with that as a set-up. Like let both groups go after each other but also splinter/evolve beyond the cliches they've already covered in how many movies and which a lot of brain dead fans keep claiming will happen. Ideally it'd be about finding balance and creating something new out of the best parts of the old systems.
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by Kessel on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 3:24 pm

@snufkin - OMG, “The Beautiful Friendship Gang versus Kyle Ron and His Evil Boy Band!” LMAO.

That’s one of the scenario I least want to see happen in Episode IX, but you made me burst out laughing so hard with that! Smile

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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by Let The Past Die on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 3:47 pm

I agree with pretty much everyone else, there needs to be something extra added to the mix, else it's same old same old!

On a side note, do we actually know how many of the resistance are left? Their numbers depleted quite rapidly.
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by DeeBee on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 5:14 pm

@Kylo Men wrote: I find the idea of a new Resistance-First Order to be unappealing. First because it's ridiculous - the Resistance is down to 12 people at the end of TLJ. Second, because it's played out and derivative. Third, the Resistance are incompetent and boring. Fourth, they seem like the type of people who think men and women should sign a legal waiver every time they hug.
@”Kylo Men”
Rofl Kylo Men! Yeah at the end of TLJ they do not inspire a lot of interest.. incompetent is so true – all those hard lessons learned in TLJ from their mistakes leaves them looking less than inspiring!
This is one reason why I am interested in hearing ideas from others about how things could be in IX.
Legal waiver that’s hilarious! I think Poe is the official symbol of rebellion sex appeal…


@JustMe wrote: I think that Finn will have a big part in the new Rebellion and may take over as the leader.  
@”JustMe”
That would be interesting! Also, interesting ideas about masks and characters being revealed – it’s like they are being revealed to themselves, their full potential/destiny, along with the audience!
I think at the end of TLJ Finn is not portrayed as being leader material as much as poe is – because Finn is not looking for alternatives to staying and fighting them head on – whereas Poe was.
I’ve heard before that Finn’s characterisation is confusing and here I tend to agree – his being a trained stormtrooper who knows how to fight is a little obscured for me..
Maybe we can see this more clearly in IX. Finn leading a stormtrooper insurgency could be a fun and powerful adventure. I’d like to see that!
Finn as leader would be a surprise- I’m assuming Poe will be.. but as we’ve learned – assume nothing!!!
Lol. I’d actually kinda like to see Rose take the leadership but I am guessing all the fan boys would be crying about all the female leaders being too much *cough*

@SoloSideCousin wrote: @12 Parsnips

I agree with your whole post, but especially with the part about that Luke is talking about Ben in that speech. The shots to Poe, Finn and Rey are what the audience already expects.  They are a distraction from what Luke is really saying to Ben. Because Ben is everything. Ben is the one who resolves the Skywalker conundrum. Ben, being light and dark, is the "middle way" between Vader and the twins, and hopefully can create something new beyond this Empire/Rebellion world.
@”SoloSideCousin”
Yes well put! SW often includes dialogue, titles etc. that have more than one meaning.. which later reveals itself.. thus all the fans obsess over hidden meanings – only.. from what I’ve seen none of them are picking apart Luke’s line here and wondering if Kylo/Ben could be a jedi one day noooo because he is bad, evil, never gonna happen!
Middle way between Vader and the twins- I like that concept!

@snufkin wrote: I've said it elsewhere, but when it comes to this part of the story agreed on the ZZZZZsss. Because:
1) The Rebellion itself in the OT is never a central plot point but the backdrop to the relationships and character arcs.
2) Give credit to Rogue One for actually doing a more credible job than either of the ST for showing the factions and compromises/dirty laundry in that type of organization. Versus what we've got here, which is just not that interesting to watch beyond Space Dern taking out the Supremacy and Paige's sacrifice. Rose is pretty much the only really compelling/interesting character on that side of the story....
@”snufkin”
Yeah I should have started this thread earlier..
What a great idea to look back on how the rebellion were portrayed in the OT.
I guess their survival was never in question like it was in TLJ, also in the OT the striving to maintain hope was more personal to the individual characters or small group of relationships – rather than a galaxy wide struggle to maintain hope- I guess being the culmination of all IX movies the perspective moves wider.. but you are right snufkin, it needs to keep up close and personal for us to really engage.
I am a terrible SW fan. I confess I have no seen Rogue One. Ahem. Will I be kicked off the forum? Ohhh I know I really need to get around to watching it! Lol.

@snufkin wrote:
...3) I think some fans get a little too defensive/protective of this side of the plot line because the term itself has become the name of a political movement. Which is a million times more interesting, complex/dynamic, and far more worth of me being a stan and giving my time/attention/loyalty to. Versus here, where I still can't believe that Poe got nearly everybody killed and still ends up getting promoted back into a leadership position. Like this wasn't Dunkirk in space, this was somebody's hubris getting other people killed and in the end, "I like him, he's a troublemaker" and Poe learns a lesson about "preserving the light" (?!).

If the resistance has reverted back to a rebellion in IX, as some of us are guessing, this may address this.

I agree with you snufkin, the loss of all those lives never seemed to weigh heavy enough of Poe that I could see. Maybe we will see this in IX. Lol that’s my answer for everything haaaa.

@snufkin wrote: At least TLJ leaves both groups fractured and having lost resources/leadership at the end of the story. Hopefully we won't get The Beautiful Friendship Gang versus Kyle Ron and His Evil Boy Band for IX, like dear God I hope not. Even as a small child I'd be bored out of my mind with that as a set-up. Like let both groups go after each other but also splinter/evolve beyond the cliches they've already covered in how many movies and which a lot of brain dead fans keep claiming will happen. Ideally it'd be about finding balance and creating something new out of the best parts of the old systems.

Rofl the beautiful friendship gang and the evil boy band haaaaa.. that’s too funny! I think the original trilogy threesome were a beautiful friendship gang.. but it worked.. I think after TFA criticisms with the death star/SKB repeat that they will not repeat – and I get the vibe JJ is keen to expand and create something new in IX.
The death star as a plot device is a simple way of conveying the defeat of a massive galaxy wide organisation. Without it – how do you show with one simple act that the FO has been defeated?
As cliché as it is, it conveys this well and gives the goodies a clear triumphant moment and the baddies a clear devastating defeat.
I wonder how they will be able to do this, with no death star in IX? Any ideas anyone?

@Let The Past Die wrote:
On a side note, do we actually know how many of the resistance are left? Their numbers depleted quite rapidly.  

I’m wondering this myself! I guess we need those dvds so we can count them lol.

So how do they make the rebellion more interesting in IX?
Keep focus on them to a minimum? Lol.

I think the OT didn't spend much time with the rebellion as an organisation - and it worked well. It was enough to give the trio a context, but no more... But.. still there does need to be a context and I guess that's what this thread is exploring.

I think the OT had a sense of big bad corporation vs small group of people that the GA connected with - even though that small group was actually part of a bigger organisation.. I 100% agree that it would be a big yawn to just watch the rebels build up their numbers and resources..

Whatever happens, I think we need to see some positive progress for the rebellion at the start of IX. Because in a final battle things always look the most grim right before you win at the end of IX.

Looking ahead to IX, the rebellion are going to need to change how they conduct their warfare – any suggestions for what you’d like to see? Or what we could see?

Hyperspace tracking
I think the hyperspace tracking we saw for the first time in TLJ is a game changer, but I’ve not seen this and its implications discussed anywhere yet.. but then maybe I’ve missed it.
Assuming the FO still has the tech (it seemed to be linked to the supremacy which I guess was destroyed) or they will be rebuilding that tech. This is going to change the space battles... Space battles and pursuits have come to an end so far as a result of at least three things:
1)someone being defeated
2)captured or
3)making an escape by jumping to hyperspace
[any other ways?]

The implications of the FO Hyperspace tracking are that option 3 is no longer an option. Uh oh.
I wonder, could the force be used to turn off hyperspace tracking? [Or is that not how the force works? haaa]
Anyway, cat and mouse games in space will have one less option if the FO latches on to their target…

I would love to see them use the same tactic as in ESB where the MF parks itself on the imperial destroyer, and then floats away ‘with the rest of the garbage’ when the destroyer dumps it’s rubbish before it jumps to light speed.

One of Han Solo’s best moments IMHO.. and I’m sure Leia falls a little more in love with him there!
What a fantastic nod to Han Solo to see a version of this– especially if Ben is in the MF with Chewie and Rey.
Ohhh I can dream!

Anyone else have some dreams for what they’d like to see from those fighting the FO? Do tell!
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by JustMe on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 6:08 pm

@DeeBee wrote:
@JustMe wrote: I think that Finn will have a big part in the new Rebellion and may take over as the leader.  
@”JustMe”
That would be interesting! Also, interesting ideas about masks and characters being revealed – it’s like they are being revealed to themselves, their full potential/destiny, along with the audience!
I think at the end of TLJ Finn is not portrayed as being leader material as much as poe is – because Finn is not looking for alternatives to staying and fighting them head on – whereas Poe was.
I’ve heard before that Finn’s characterisation is confusing and here I tend to agree – his being a trained stormtrooper who knows how to fight is a little obscured for me..
Maybe we can see this more clearly in IX. Finn leading a stormtrooper insurgency could be a fun and powerful adventure. I’d like to see that!
Finn as leader would be a surprise- I’m assuming Poe will be.. but as we’ve learned – assume nothing!!!
Lol. I’d actually kinda like to see Rose take the leadership but I am guessing all the fan boys would be crying about all the female leaders being too much *cough*
@DeeBee

There certainly is a lot of great potential with Finn's character, that is for sure. The whole thing in TFA where Kylo stops and pauses to look at Finn when Finn didn't use his blaster to kill villagers is very important. Kylo knew Finn was not doing his job, but chose to just walk away. Perhaps Kylo's compassion problem was kicking in. So, by not doing anything to Finn, Kylo just created more problems for himself. Because, it was Finn who teamed up with Rey and got BB8 to Kylo's dad, Han Solo. They (JJ Abrams, LucasFilm, etc...) must have set this up as the beginning of Finn's journey and somehow it is going to be intertwined with Kylo's. Kylo didn't deal with Finn when he should have, and this set off a chain events that brought Rey into Kylo's sphere..... Finn is very important to this story. We'll have to see what they do next, how they continue Finn's development as well as Poe's. Yeah, Rose also might team up with Finn to be a co-leader of the Rebellion, that would be cool! Many of us can relate to her, the quiet girl in the background who actually is tough and smart and knows how to get things done. It's interesting that in TLJ she was one of the pilots in the last battle. So, she went from a "nobody" to someone who was an active fighter.

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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by snufkin on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 6:10 pm

@DeeBee - Funny you should mention that scene because everybody always looks out for "I've got a bad feelings about this," but garbage is a running word/motif in the OT, especially for Han and Leia. Which you see Rey using that word when she first spots the Falcon while outrunning the TIE fighters ("The one's garbage") and then guess what word crops up between Ben and Rey in their confrontations about what happened with her parents, "they threw you away like garbage." Garbage as a word has a pretty specific significance in what it's used to describe and who uses that word. "We'll float away like the rest of the garbage" = Ben's parents.
@Kessel wrote:@snufkin - OMG, “The Beautiful Friendship Gang versus Kyle Ron and His Evil Boy Band!” LMAO.

That’s one of the scenario I least want to see happen in Episode IX, but you made me burst out laughing so hard with that! :)

@Kessel

Full credit goes to the Buzzfeed article about TFA from Kylo's point of view because he resents Rey's friendships in the Resistance and calls them "The Beautiful Friendship Gang" (and Poe is "Captain Handsome").  Yeah, I mean some of the things you read that people appear to be genuinely excited about when it comes to the Resistance, who are a less interesting group of people (save for Rose, Paige, and Holdo) than the various Rebel factions in Rogue One. Like they should've had somebody like Cassian in the mix because that's genuinely interesting to watch (besides it being Diego Luna obvs). But otherwise, the fantasy fan scenarios you read about what people think would be great to see with that group sound like they want something like Veggie Tales or Degrassi Junior High in Space. Unless the plotline is that the Lone Girl from the Beautiful Friendship Gang and Kyle Ron secretly like each other and the big drama is that he asks her to go to Space Prom with him (which Kylo has already done twice now).
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by DeeBee on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 7:19 pm

@snufkin wrote:@DeeBee - Funny you should mention that scene because everybody always looks out for "I've got a bad feelings about this," but garbage is a running word/motif in the OT, especially for Han and Leia. Which you see Rey using that word when she first spots the Falcon while outrunning the TIE fighters ("The one's garbage") and then guess what word crops up between Ben and Rey in their confrontations about what happened with her parents, "they threw you away like garbage." Garbage as a word has a pretty specific significance in what it's used to describe and who uses that word. "We'll float away like the rest of the garbage" = Ben's parents.
@snufkin

Yep! there is also the well known line from Kylo on Crait about the MF "Blow that piece of junk out of the sky!!!!"
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by nickandnora on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 8:28 am

My best guesses as to how the dynamic within the Resistance will unfold is:

Rey/Poe - antagonistic. I'm certain of it as I'm certain of anything in any story.

Rey/Rose - friendship/sisterly bond (as much as can be developed in one film). A female/female friendship is SORELY (like severely) needed in these stories and it's been set up so perfectly here with Rose's loss of her sister and Rey's search for a family.

Rey/Finn - this is the one I'm most unsure of, actually. My suspicion is that it's going to be a complicated mix of the above. Finn will likely side with Poe at some junctures, with Rey at others. Their "ideal" friendship will likely face some cold hard realities, but I do think that overall Rey and Finn will remain friends, in an entirely platonic sense.

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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by Night Huntress on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 8:34 am

@nickandnora wrote:My best guesses as to how the dynamic within the Resistance will unfold is:

Rey/Poe - antagonistic. I'm certain of it as I'm certain of anything in any story.

Rey/Rose - friendship/sisterly bond (as much as can be developed in one film). A female/female friendship is SORELY (like severely) needed in these stories and it's been set up so perfectly here with Rose's loss of her sister and Rey's search for a family.

Rey/Finn - this is the one I'm most unsure of, actually. My suspicion is that it's going to be a complicated mix of the above. Finn will likely side with Poe at some junctures, with Rey at others. Their "ideal" friendship will likely face some cold hard realities, but I do think that overall Rey and Finn will remain friends, in an entirely platonic sense.
@nickandnora

I agree with all three of your predicted dynamics.

It would be also ironic how Rey and Poe smiled briefly at each other by the end of TLJ and many people were jumping to conclusions about how there could be something romantic between them...only to discover "this is not going to go the way you think..." Razz


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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by Geralt_Riv on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 10:26 am

@DeeBee wrote:
@snufkin wrote:@DeeBee - Funny you should mention that scene because everybody always looks out for "I've got a bad feelings about this," but garbage is a running word/motif in the OT, especially for Han and Leia. Which you see Rey using that word when she first spots the Falcon while outrunning the TIE fighters ("The one's garbage") and then guess what word crops up between Ben and Rey in their confrontations about what happened with her parents, "they threw you away like garbage." Garbage as a word has a pretty specific significance in what it's used to describe and who uses that word. "We'll float away like the rest of the garbage" = Ben's parents.
@snufkin

Yep! there is also the well known line from Kylo on Crait about the MF "Blow that piece of junk out of the sky!!!!"
@DeeBee

In that scene we found out that Ben spent most of his childhood with his uncle. Laughing

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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 12:56 pm

@Night Huntress wrote:
@nickandnora wrote:My best guesses as to how the dynamic within the Resistance will unfold is:

Rey/Poe - antagonistic. I'm certain of it as I'm certain of anything in any story.

Rey/Rose - friendship/sisterly bond (as much as can be developed in one film). A female/female friendship is SORELY (like severely) needed in these stories and it's been set up so perfectly here with Rose's loss of her sister and Rey's search for a family.

Rey/Finn - this is the one I'm most unsure of, actually. My suspicion is that it's going to be a complicated mix of the above. Finn will likely side with Poe at some junctures, with Rey at others. Their "ideal" friendship will likely face some cold hard realities, but I do think that overall Rey and Finn will remain friends, in an entirely platonic sense.
@nickandnora

I agree with all three of your predicted dynamics.

It would be also ironic how Rey and Poe smiled briefly at each other by the end of TLJ and many people were jumping to conclusions about how there could be something romantic between them...only to discover "this is not going to go the way you think..." Razz


@Night Huntress

I am a big fan of the idea that the exchanged smile/Damerey speculation is all going to be subverted by what Rey and Poe's dynamic actually turns out to be in IX.
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by DeeBee on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 6:11 pm

@nickandnora wrote:My best guesses as to how the dynamic within the Resistance will unfold is:

Rey/Poe - antagonistic. I'm certain of it as I'm certain of anything in any story.

Rey/Rose - friendship/sisterly bond (as much as can be developed in one film). A female/female friendship is SORELY (like severely) needed in these stories and it's been set up so perfectly here with Rose's loss of her sister and Rey's search for a family.

Rey/Finn - this is the one I'm most unsure of, actually. My suspicion is that it's going to be a complicated mix of the above. Finn will likely side with Poe at some junctures, with Rey at others. Their "ideal" friendship will likely face some cold hard realities, but I do think that overall Rey and Finn will remain friends, in an entirely platonic sense.
@nickandnora
I like your take on these three dynamics. Fingers crossed we get this Smile
I do wonder how Rey being in the picture will influence the Finn/Rose relationship…
Yeah I’m not keen on any new characters being introduced into the core set of characters…
A female friendship would be fantastic.. Leia and Holdo seemed great friends but they really didn’t get much time together before Holdo sacrificed herself. Still I found it was enough and very touching.
I keep thinking I don’t want too much time on Rey and anyone except Kylo/Ben rofl!

@”ISeeAnIsland” @”Night Huntress”
– lol I can see it now, if a hint of Rey/Poe hostility gets out in the lead up to the movie release, many fans will be cheering for an enemies to lovers story in IX. Ohhh the irony haaaa..

@”Geralt_Riv” – haaaa that’s a great one! That line of Luke’s is one of his best!
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by Kylo Men on Sat 10 Feb 2018, 7:44 am

I would say that if the prequels damaged the reputation of the Jedi, the sequel trilogy is in the same way damaging the reputation of the Rebellion/Resistance, to me, at least, and it seems to a decent number of you. Because, in the end, there's something about the Resistance that seems kind of unlikable and, further, untrustworthy due to their incompetence. It's hard to root for a gang to take over the galaxy when it seems like it can't get its act together, especially after Republicanism just failed for the second time, and their disorganization and weird internal politics make it extremely likely that they will fail again.  The First Order might be evil (although it remains to be seen if the Ren administration will be), but at least they have some idea of what they're doing and it's not going to be a total train wreck. Incompetence in high places is its own sort of evil.

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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by Teo oswald on Sat 10 Feb 2018, 10:03 am

My problem is Poe as a new leader.

Princess Leia Organa (Carrie Fisher) called off the attack on the dreadnaught when the situation became too dangerous. Poe chose to disobey her orders and continue the attack.

While Poe’s actions allowed the Rebel Alliance to land a small victory against The First Order, his actions led to the loss of multiple lives and Rebel bombers. These people’s lives were valuable. So were the ships that were lost.

This victory was bittersweet.



Poe was thrilled he’d taken down one of The First Order’s dreadnaughts. He believed his actions were praise-worthy. Leia had another thing for him.

She saw the cost of the attack. Multiple bombers. The lives of the pilots who were shot down. There was a cost to the victory. She saw it. Poe did not.

Admiral Holdo (Laura Dern) took command after General Organawas injured. She was promoted to general. This promotion came with a huge challenge.
Admiral Holdo did what great leaders do. She rallied the troops. She gave a speech that helped turn the hearts and minds of the Rebels back to their cause.

While the Rebels may be hurting, she said, they’re still a symbol of hope. A symbol of hope to the downcast and trodden upon. These few words sparked something within the remaining Rebel Alliance members and they rose to the occasion.
Great leaders don’t only give direction. Great leaders give hope. They inspire and encourage those they lead. They help people see WHAT IS POSSIBLE if they work together.

Rose was quite a wise character in Star Wars: The Last Jedi. This line was really powerful.
"That’s how we’re going to win. Not fighting for what we hate. Saving what we love"

Poe had made quite a few mistakes during the events of The Last Jedi. He’d led multiple Rebels to their deaths, lost valuable Rebel ships, and more. Yet there came a time when General Organa knew she could pass the leadership baton to Poe
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by DeeBee on Sat 10 Feb 2018, 8:11 pm

@Kylo Men wrote:I would say that if the prequels damaged the reputation of the Jedi, the sequel trilogy is in the same way damaging the reputation of the Rebellion/Resistance, to me, at least, and it seems to a decent number of you. Because, in the end, there's something about the Resistance that seems kind of unlikable and, further, untrustworthy due to their incompetence. It's hard to root for a gang to take over the galaxy when it seems like it can't get its act together, especially after Republicanism just failed for the second time, and their disorganization and weird internal politics make it extremely likely that they will fail again.  The First Order might be evil (although it remains to be seen if the Ren administration will be), but at least they have some idea of what they're doing and it's not going to be a total train wreck. Incompetence in high places is its own sort of evil.
@Kylo Men

Yeah I am kind of surprised to find I am agreeing with this.. I know it's not supposed to be the case.. but it kinda is lol.

I think maybe what would have helped was if we had been reminded of the cruelty of the FO in a more tangible way in TLJ.
we had dialogue or the running crawl telling us they were merciless and Rose's story.. but we don't see it. The only direct cruelty we see the FO carrying out is aimed at the resistance alone.
Any other suffering in the world we see in TLJ is a result of arms dealers, problem gamblers, animal cruelty or cruel slave owners - so not directly a result of the FO. I think. ? Or have I missed something?

I mean Hux killed billions of people in TFA but it doesn't even get a mention in TLJ. I think the audience could have benefitted from a reminder - to underline that while the resistance has it's problems, it is not a danger to the galaxy anywhere near equivalent to the FO. Just my 2 cents.. The sheer evil the FO as an organisation gets a little lost along the way. Maybe this is in part because Kylo/Ben is with the FO at this point also, and we like him and/or want to like him and route for him.. So we can maybe be tempted to downplay the evil of the FO as a result.
I want a reminder of this in IX, but I really don't want this tied back to Kylo/Ben either!

With Leia no longer leading the resistance in IX, this does create a path for Rey to be at loggerheads with resistance leadership in a way that would have been less likely had Leia still been in charge. Interesting stories ahead!!!
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sun 11 Feb 2018, 1:33 am

@DeeBee wrote:
@Kylo Men wrote:I would say that if the prequels damaged the reputation of the Jedi, the sequel trilogy is in the same way damaging the reputation of the Rebellion/Resistance, to me, at least, and it seems to a decent number of you. Because, in the end, there's something about the Resistance that seems kind of unlikable and, further, untrustworthy due to their incompetence. It's hard to root for a gang to take over the galaxy when it seems like it can't get its act together, especially after Republicanism just failed for the second time, and their disorganization and weird internal politics make it extremely likely that they will fail again.  The First Order might be evil (although it remains to be seen if the Ren administration will be), but at least they have some idea of what they're doing and it's not going to be a total train wreck. Incompetence in high places is its own sort of evil.
@Kylo Men

Yeah I am kind of surprised to find I am agreeing with this.. I know it's not supposed to be the case.. but it kinda is lol.

I think maybe what would have helped was if we had been reminded of the cruelty of the FO in a more tangible way in TLJ.
we had dialogue or the running crawl telling us they were merciless and Rose's story.. but we don't see it. The only direct cruelty we see the FO carrying out is aimed at the resistance alone.
Any other suffering in the world we see in TLJ is a result of arms dealers, problem gamblers, animal cruelty or cruel slave owners - so not directly a result of the FO. I think. ? Or have I missed something?

I mean Hux killed billions of people in TFA but it doesn't even get a mention in TLJ. I think the audience could have benefitted from a reminder - to underline that while the resistance has it's problems, it is not a danger to the galaxy anywhere near equivalent to the FO. Just my 2 cents.. The sheer evil the FO as an organisation gets a little lost along the way. Maybe this is in part because Kylo/Ben is with the FO at this point also, and we like him and/or want to like him and route for him.. So we can maybe be tempted to downplay the evil of the FO as a result.  
I want a reminder of this in IX, but I really don't want this tied back to Kylo/Ben either!

With Leia no longer leading the resistance in IX, this does create a path for Rey to be at loggerheads with resistance leadership in a way that would have been less likely had Leia still been in charge. Interesting stories ahead!!!
@DeeBee

I agree @Kylo Men, the Resistance/Rebellion really is taking a beating like the Jedi in the PT. And if you read any of the books, particularly Bloodline, the product/dream of the Rebellion, the Republic, looks even worse.

In both the PT and in Bloodline, both Republic government structures are mind-numbingly stupid. In the PT, the Republic doesn't even work as a government. It seems like it's like some Galactic UN that couldn't get a small local vaccine progam started, nevermind a Security Council or peacekeeping missions.There's no sense of a G20, the WTO, the international court, when in reality it should be a real government, with a real charter, with actual procedural rules in legislation.  It has none of that.  It's actually suggested that Padme go to the courts because her planet is being invaded.  Are you kidding me?

In the end, the Senate looks like a pack of squabbling kids, constantly on the verge of a fight, with some theocratic police above them all to keep them in thrall and in line. For being around for 1000 years old, it really seems to have no maturity whatsoever. The planets act like tribes. For all their talk of democracy and veneer of civilization, they come across as a much more primitive society, where they need some Charlemagne to start getting control of all the warlords. It's almost like they are not ready for anything else, and hence, like the Catholic Chruch in early medieval times, it's the Jedi who hold it together... And that kind of set-up was never going to be sustainable.

As for Mon Mothma's Republic, it sounds like the whole thing was set up like a house of cards, with Mon Mothma being the cult of personality that held it together. And that kind of government is never sustainable because it is based on nothing. Also there is no sense of structure in that government, no federalism, no leadership beyond Mon Mothma's charisma, so structure-wise it is actually worse than the first Republic because there was some kind of leader of the Senate in that government charter.  In Bloodline they are trying to invent the President role. It's stupid and short sighted. Also, for all their idealism, it seems like they left a lot of planets in the dust.

ETA: As for the FO, they are bad. But once again they are led by a cult of personality and his disgusting cult beliefs and his followers. It's unsustainable as well. The underlying officers hate Hux. Ren wants something different. I don't know if Ren can rebuild out of that,  but damn, I don't blame him for not believing in the Rebellion's mission, because they talk a good game, but tend not to deliver.
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by CienaRee on Sun 11 Feb 2018, 6:24 am

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@DeeBee wrote:
@Kylo Men wrote:I would say that if the prequels damaged the reputation of the Jedi, the sequel trilogy is in the same way damaging the reputation of the Rebellion/Resistance, to me, at least, and it seems to a decent number of you. Because, in the end, there's something about the Resistance that seems kind of unlikable and, further, untrustworthy due to their incompetence. It's hard to root for a gang to take over the galaxy when it seems like it can't get its act together, especially after Republicanism just failed for the second time, and their disorganization and weird internal politics make it extremely likely that they will fail again.  The First Order might be evil (although it remains to be seen if the Ren administration will be), but at least they have some idea of what they're doing and it's not going to be a total train wreck. Incompetence in high places is its own sort of evil.
@Kylo Men

Yeah I am kind of surprised to find I am agreeing with this.. I know it's not supposed to be the case.. but it kinda is lol.

I think maybe what would have helped was if we had been reminded of the cruelty of the FO in a more tangible way in TLJ.
we had dialogue or the running crawl telling us they were merciless and Rose's story.. but we don't see it. The only direct cruelty we see the FO carrying out is aimed at the resistance alone.
Any other suffering in the world we see in TLJ is a result of arms dealers, problem gamblers, animal cruelty or cruel slave owners - so not directly a result of the FO. I think. ? Or have I missed something?

I mean Hux killed billions of people in TFA but it doesn't even get a mention in TLJ. I think the audience could have benefitted from a reminder - to underline that while the resistance has it's problems, it is not a danger to the galaxy anywhere near equivalent to the FO. Just my 2 cents.. The sheer evil the FO as an organisation gets a little lost along the way. Maybe this is in part because Kylo/Ben is with the FO at this point also, and we like him and/or want to like him and route for him.. So we can maybe be tempted to downplay the evil of the FO as a result.  
I want a reminder of this in IX, but I really don't want this tied back to Kylo/Ben either!

With Leia no longer leading the resistance in IX, this does create a path for Rey to be at loggerheads with resistance leadership in a way that would have been less likely had Leia still been in charge. Interesting stories ahead!!!
@DeeBee

I agree @Kylo Men, the Resistance/Rebellion really is taking a beating like the Jedi in the PT. And if you read any of the books, particularly Bloodline, the product/dream of the Rebellion, the Republic, looks even worse.

In both the PT and in Bloodline, both Republic government structures are mind-numbingly stupid. In the PT, the Republic doesn't even work as a government. It seems like it's like some Galactic UN that couldn't get a small local vaccine progam started, nevermind a Security Council or peacekeeping missions.There's no sense of a G20, the WTO, the international court, when in reality it should be a real government, with a real charter, with actual procedural rules in legislation.  It has none of that.  It's actually suggested that Padme go to the courts because her planet is being invaded.  Are you kidding me?

In the end, the Senate looks like a pack of squabbling kids, constantly on the verge of a fight, with some theocratic police above them all to keep them in thrall and in line. For being around for 1000 years old, it really seems to have no maturity whatsoever. The planets act like tribes. For all their talk of democracy and veneer of civilization, they come across as a much more primitive society, where they need some Charlemagne to start getting control of all the warlords. It's almost like they are not ready for anything else, and hence, like the Catholic Chruch in early medieval times, it's the Jedi who hold it together... And that kind of set-up was never going to be sustainable.

As for Mon Mothma's Republic, it sounds like the whole thing was set up like a house of cards, with Mon Mothma being the cult of personality that held it together. And that kind of government is never sustainable because it is based on nothing. Also there is no sense of structure in that government, no federalism, no leadership beyond Mon Mothma's charisma, so structure-wise it is actually worse than the first Republic because there was some kind of leader of the Senate in that government charter.  In Bloodline they are trying to invent the President role. It's stupid and short sighted. Also, for all their idealism, it seems like they left a lot of planets in the dust.

ETA: As for the FO, they are bad. But once again they are led by a cult of personality and his disgusting cult beliefs and his followers. It's unsustainable as well. The underlying officers hate Hux. Ren wants something different. I don't know if Ren can rebuild out of that,  but damn, I don't blame him for not believing in the Rebellion's mission, because they talk a good game, but tend not to deliver.
@SoloSideCousin

That's a great analysis,you said exactly what I was thinking. Claps
The problem also is that in Bloodline it's revealed that Leia starts the Resistance because she's fed up with the Republic not doing anything so what I fail to understand is why she or any other member want to so badly restore a system that doesn't work and failed BOTH times.I mean you can excuse Leia for supporting the Republic the first time around since she wasn't born yet when the corruption in the first one was happening but the second time?There's no excuse for it especially when young people's lives are put at stakes and you can say they volunteered for it but they just like Leia once upon a time wouldn't know any better and we actually get a hint of that with Rose having no idea that the Resistance buy weapons not just the FO) or if they do well that makes them even more unlikable.Which also makes me wonder does Leia know about Resistance fighters buying weapons from planets who profit from the exploitation and slavery of others since she is their leader after all.
That's also the thing we have no idea why these people want to join in the cause beyond the ''fighting for liberty''cliché because we know nothing of their personalities they exist just to fight for the cause and as a result end up being one dimensional generic characters.
It would be great if Rey questioned their motives because come on the Republic hasn't done anything to stop the corruption and exploitation of people on planets like Jakku so it would make no sense for Rey to be their cheerleader,it just doesn't no matter how you spin it which is also why Rian exploringa ll these grey themes with the Resistance only to revert them back to the ''good guys''everyone should root for makes no sense to me GL in the OT never tried to paint the Rebellion as morally gray and it's why people bought into the whole good rebels vs evil imperials.If Rian didn't intend to go anywhere with this idea then he simply shouldn't have attempted it just for the sake of it.
Having all this in mind no wonder Ben hates th Resistance so much and want them destroyed when you look at the facts it makes the Resistance look like terrorists who want to restore a system that doesn't work pretty much how Ben sees them.

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