Rey and Kylo Ren observations

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Re: Rey and Kylo Ren observations

Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 22 Mar - 12:35

This is probably very old news he re but...
check out what they say about Kylo..
http://www.gamesradar.com/total-film-star-wars-force-awakens-review/
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Re: Rey and Kylo Ren observations

Post by Piper Maru on Wed 22 Mar - 13:41

motherofpearl1 wrote:This is probably very old news he re but...
check out what they say about Kylo..
http://www.gamesradar.com/total-film-star-wars-force-awakens-review/
@motherofpearl1

Loved how they described him:

But it’s Driver’s Kylo Ren who steals the show, a match for Darth Maul when sporting his car-grill mask, and something else entirely when he removes it. Star Wars, in many ways, is all about clearly defined lines and black and white, but this is the kind of anguish and soul-searching you’d expect in an Ingmar Bergman movie. Albeit with a really cool lightsaber.

I agree with this so much. Kylo feels more like a Shakespearean character or something out of a Bergman/Tarkovski movie than a blockbuster villain. He obviously has his cool outfit and lightsaber, but his story is really tragic and intense. That's why, in my opinion, people are so passionate when discussing his character. He really is a "love it or hate it" archetype.
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Re: Rey and Kylo Ren observations

Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 22 Mar - 13:57

Spot on description for me!
Darth Maul in the mask, something very different without it...
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Re: Rey and Kylo Ren observations

Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 24 Mar - 15:35

Having seen the live action Beauty and The Beast for the third time...
The parallels between it and Rey/Kylo are startling

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Re: Rey and Kylo Ren observations

Post by Acritiqua on Tue 28 Mar - 23:20

Has anyone read the Junior Novelization? Kylo is much more hateful towards Rey in that book than I imagined watching TFA.

During the interrogation scene Rey's of the opinion that he is purely selfish and only cares about himself and his objectives. It says his tone softened when he talks of Han and that he would have disappointed her "as if he cared" but Rey knows this is only a ploy.

He tells her not to be afraid, but Rey thinks that she isn't the one who is afraid, he is. She uses his fear as the portal into his mind and finds it is filled with fear. Fear of not being as strong as Darth Vader is king of the fear mountain.

Kylo is mad at her for uncovering this and he snaps her restraints back on her arms, more tightly and painfully than before.

In the end fight scene when Rey doesn't kill him he wonders if she thinks she's stronger than him, or worse, if she pities him. He seems to hate her for both. He watches her, sneering at her, thinking her a fool for going after Finn and that she'll die on Starkiller.

His hatred and enmity towards her is generally pretty clear it seems.

Also as Leia reflects over her losses, she is sad knowing that she couldn't keep her son from becoming as dark as Darth Vader or something.

All of this kind of actually contradicts some of my impressions from the TFA film. I am not really sure what to make of it. Another thing it makes me wonder is, given the different opinions various fans have on this character (e.g. some seeing him as sympathetic and others hating him), I wonder if which book they have affects this: the adult novelization vs. the junior novelization.

It seems that the author of the junior novel had access to both the adult novelization (draft) and the screenplay.
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Re: Rey and Kylo Ren observations

Post by MeadowofAshes on Tue 28 Mar - 23:53

@Acritiqua Hi! Don't think we've interacted here before. Welcome! Smile

Keep in mind if the author is a skilled writer the interrogation is written from Rey's perspective. Rey isn't omniscient. She does not have a high opinion of Ren (and shouldn't be expected to) in the first act. He's behaving in a beastly manner. If I were writing that scene, I'd have it be her perspective that he's faking too. He is an interrogator after information. Now, from an audience perspective, we might know he's epicly failing as an interrogator because he keeps finding stuff in her head he relates to, but she wouldn't know that. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Ren has a villainous crush on Rey and the guy has rage issues. He wanted her to be his student (on more than one level) and she rejected him in a humiliating way. I wouldn't expect anything except Ren to come to Ahch-To huffing and puffing like the Big Bad Wolf. He hasn't made the transition from selfish obsession to selfless love yet. That'll take place over the course of TLJ and Episode IX.

It's been since the summer that I picked up the junior novelization, but I remember preferring it to the adult version and don't remember it seeming concerning for the story as it currently is.
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Re: Rey and Kylo Ren observations

Post by WhatGirl on Wed 29 Mar - 0:20

Acritiqua wrote:Has anyone read the Junior Novelization? Kylo is much more hateful towards Rey in that book than I imagined watching TFA.

I've noticed that the writing is overall less subtle - when Kylo is meant to act villainous, it's very much right there in your face. But during the moments when the facade slips, that is also very straightforward. The scene with Han and Kylo on the bridge is especially unambiguous; for example, it is spelled out right in the book that Han forgives his son, and hopes to be forgiven in turn.

During the interrogation scene Rey's of the opinion that he is purely selfish and only cares about himself and his objectives. It says his tone softened when he talks of Han and that he would have disappointed her "as if he cared" but Rey knows this is only a ploy.

Rey has a very stark opinion of him in the adult novelization too. She doesn't trust him and pretty much assumes the worst. For your example, I remember reading that and thinking it was a lot like Leia accusing Han of only caring about money. We later find out of course that nothing could be further from the truth.

In the end fight scene when Rey doesn't kill him he wonders if she thinks she's stronger than him, or worse, if she pities him. He seems to hate her for both. He watches her, sneering at her, thinking her a fool for going after Finn and that she'll die on Starkiller.

His hatred and enmity towards her is generally pretty clear it seems.

I don't think he hates her at all, even in this version. When he has her trapped on the edge of the cliff, for instance, he tells her very directly, "I don't want to kill you." He hates being pitied, because he wishes that he were strong. His feelings for her are his weakness, as he goes from being practically invincible in the beginning of the film, to lying injured in the snow at the end. As for thinking she's a fool, it could be that he wanted her to try to escape the planet rather than stay behind with Finn. One could read jealousy in there as well.

Also as Leia reflects over her losses, she is sad knowing that she couldn't keep her son from becoming as dark as Darth Vader or something.
@Acritiqua

I don't remember much about this passage. Was this after Han's death? If so, it sounds like Leia may have lost faith in her son's ability to return to the light. Which doesn't necessarily mean she won't forgive him later, but for now she has stopped believing it possible for him to be saved. We don't yet know how Luke feels, although rumors suggest very strongly that he too could have lost faith. Which ultimately would leave it to our heroine as the only one who can redeem Ben.
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Re: Rey and Kylo Ren observations

Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 29 Mar - 6:08

MeadowofAshes wrote:@Acritiqua Hi! Don't think we've interacted here before. Welcome! Smile

Keep in mind if the author is a skilled writer the interrogation is written from Rey's perspective. Rey isn't omniscient. She does not have a high opinion of Ren (and shouldn't be expected to) in the first act. He's behaving in a beastly manner. If I were writing that scene, I'd have it be her perspective that he's faking too. He is an interrogator after information. Now, from an audience perspective, we might know he's epicly failing as an interrogator because he keeps finding stuff in her head he relates to, but she wouldn't know that. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Ren has a villainous crush on Rey and the guy has rage issues. He wanted her to be his student (on more than one level) and she rejected him in a humiliating way. I wouldn't expect anything except Ren to come to Ahch-To huffing and puffing like the Big Bad Wolf. He hasn't made the transition from selfish obsession to selfless love yet. That'll take place over the course of TLJ and Episode IX.

It's been since the summer that I picked up the junior novelization, but I remember preferring it to the adult version and don't remember it seeming concerning for the story as it currently is.
@MeadowofAshes

Yes and yes.
Rey's hurt him- badly. He'll be angry at her at first- Kylo already has been shown to be the type who uses anger to mask his pain. And Rey, for all her survival skills, is still very much an innocent. She has little knowledge of the complexities of human nature. Look how quickly she latched onto Finn as 'family', to Han as a 'father figure', despite knowing him for five minutes. She sees the universe in shades of black and white. To her Kylo is the monster who wounded Finn and killed his own father. She has yet to realise Finn would have done the same if the situation was reversed, or that Han wasn't exactly 'father of the year' - not that it justifies what his son did, of course.

Rey apparently learns something about Kylo that alters her opinion of him. I can't wait to find out what.
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Re: Rey and Kylo Ren observations

Post by Acritiqua on Wed 29 Mar - 15:39

@motherofpearl1 - Finn would have done the same???

I generally agree with the previous posts regarding Rey's point of view.
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Re: Rey and Kylo Ren observations

Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 29 Mar - 15:47

What I'm referring to is Finn would have killed Kylo if he had the chance - like Rey he hated him.
Kylo actually turned his back and walked away at one point and Finn attacked him again. Finn also ran a stormtrooper through with Luke's sabre on Takodana and was completely cool with shooting several of his former colleagues without hesitation.
Kylo is not a saint - but neither are Rey,Finn or Poe. I love them all but they're grey characters. Which is why I love them!
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Re: Rey and Kylo Ren observations

Post by Acritiqua on Wed 29 Mar - 15:57

Wellllll, I'm not going to say all things are equal here since Kylo was there to block their escape. "We're not done yet." I thought his intentions were pretty clear. He's the aggressor in the situation.
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Re: Rey and Kylo Ren observations

Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 29 Mar - 16:06

He was. But unlike Lor San Tekka they were both armed.
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Re: Rey and Kylo Ren observations

Post by Piper Maru on Wed 29 Mar - 16:16

While the motivations and the weight of their actions are different, I agree that Rey and Finn are no saints. Especially Finn, who didn't hesitate in the slightest before attacking his former colleagues. I mean, the guy snapped out of conditioning because one of his friends died at the beginning of the movie, and by the middle he's stabbing them with a lightsaber? Alright.

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Re: Rey and Kylo Ren observations

Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 29 Mar - 17:26

I think TFA 's strengths lie in the complexities of its characters. Kylo Ren starts out as a scary, cruel 'bad guy' - at the end of the film he comes across as a tortured, tragic soul and I went from finding him reprehensible to actually wanting to give him him a cuddle!!

Finn and Rey came across as pure, and noble of heart. But by the end of the film Finn's utter willingness to kill his former colleagues was ...disturbing. More than that, I actually found Rey scary! When she stalked the wounded Kylo during their final duel all I saw was Dark Anakin and Darth Maul.

Ilove the OT. And of all of them I actually loved ROTJ the most because of its willingness to explore moral ambiguities. The ST has taken these concepts and run with them. I look forward to seeing what Finn, Rey and Kylo do next.
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Re: Rey and Kylo Ren observations

Post by Acritiqua on Wed 29 Mar - 18:16

That Rey seemed to use the dark side in that last fight, especially when she defeated him, was very interesting. They gave her some of the save moves as Anakin vs. Dooku in ROTS and Luke vs. Vader in ROTJ. The part where she thrusts at him then kicks him down is part of the brief move sequence and I think the stalking is too (I just can't remember). Anyway, this sequence I think is meant to show use of the dark side as I think both Anakin and Luke were drawing on the dark side when they were using that sequence. It's about dominating one's opponent, not just defeating them. Since this *seems* intentional, I really hope TLJ carries on with this. It would be very interesting if Rey typically ends up using the dark side when fighting. After the cliff split she seemed dismayed as though she wasn't quite sure what came over her. It was almost like she felt she'd been under a spell.

Kylo on the other hand, was reduced to a helpless, fearful victim. This reversal of roles from him dominating her when he was driving her ahead and finally locked blades at the chasm, to her dominating him looking like a huntress when she defeated him, was very interesting.

What I would really like (at least I think) is if somehow their powers are linked such that there is this tug-of-war between them when they're adversaries, but if they were allies, they would be "unstoppable" together. The other thing that made me wonder about this was when Rey drew the lightsaber. I know that technically Kylo was having trouble focusing due to pain, but maybe it was that through their "bond," she'd tugged most of the power her way and that was why he couldn't get the lightsaber.

I really don't know if TPTB would link the two of them like this because they might think it's disempowering to Rey's character. But it's at least interesting to think about.

--

Regarding whether characters are saints or not, I think one can maintain that though Finn and Rey are not saints, Kylo and the FO are the aggressors/bad guys. This makes their actions in many ways less just because if they weren't there conquering, then others wouldn't become violent in defense against them. It's kind of like the villagers in the beginning of the movie. They're armed and they fire at the stormtroopers, but since they are not the aggressors in this situation and the FO is, I can't say that all is fair in war between them.
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Re: Rey and Kylo Ren observations

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 8 Apr - 7:26

Watching this gif here - please remove if the blogger wishes it - you can actually see how much he's bleeding. It's all over his glove and running down his belt. Shocked pale

https://shadowlass.tumblr.com/post/159235016753

FORGOT GIF


Last edited by motherofpearl1 on Sat 8 Apr - 14:25; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Rey and Kylo Ren observations

Post by Piper Maru on Sat 8 Apr - 13:41

@Acritiqua

I agree about the "saints vs. demons" thing. It's 100% justifiable that Rey and Finn would attack and pull no punches against the FO. But I do think it's interesting how they could've been written as pure and passive cinnamon rolls and yet they're not. They're not afraid to fight back and get their hands dirty. It's a great part of their characterization that I wish they'd explore more in the next movies.
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Re: Rey and Kylo Ren observations

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Sat 8 Apr - 16:49

@motherofpearl1

Oh yeah, you can see the blood on his belt. My question is, shouldn't a shot from the bowcaster have ripped a huge hole in his clothing? Like I'm thinking we should be able to see the wound and some exposed skin on his side? Maybe that's too gruesome for Disney.
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Re: Rey and Kylo Ren observations

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 8 Apr - 17:31

You can see the hole in his clothing,but the shadows conceal it mostly.

I know Disney don't want to traumatise children........but there is a danger of over sanitising something. Fact is, when people get shot, they bleed.
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Re: Rey and Kylo Ren observations

Post by panki on Sat 8 Apr - 18:40

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@motherofpearl1

Oh yeah, you can see the blood on his belt. My question is, shouldn't a shot from the bowcaster have ripped a huge hole in his clothing? Like I'm thinking we should be able to see the wound and some exposed skin on his side? Maybe that's too gruesome for Disney.
@Cowgirlsamurai

There is an excellent video on youtube explaining why Kylo didn't get killed when Chewie shot him with the bowcaster....the jist of it is that the distance and angle from which Chewie made his shot reduced the impact....so while Kylo was definitely injured, maybe the wound wasn't wide enough to leave a gaping hole in his clothes and side.


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Re: Rey and Kylo Ren observations

Post by snufkin on Sat 8 Apr - 18:57

It's been said on here before, but the fact that the presentation of him engaging in self-harm w/out judgement (more like a mixture of disgust from Finn and distress/pity from Rey) is pretty radical for a mainstream film. Especially one coming from Disney.

Finn's characterization is all over the place and from the WGA panel discussion with the 3 screenwriters, it sounds like he was created as a foil/sidekick to Rey's character and while they wanted to keep him, they didn't have an idea of what to do with him. It was Lawrence Kasdan's idea (because he got impatient with the figuring out part) to make him a runaway stormtrooper. Which was brilliant, but it didn't really pay off in the writing as he became the everyman/sidekick/comic relief. In term of motivation, it does seem like the "actual trio" are each shown to face what their future holds* if they don't change their ways. Finn sees his comrade bloody and dying (shot by Poe no less) and is panicked into realizing that's not what he wants for himself. He is pretty selfish/self preserving with his reasons for helping Poe escape, lying to Rey and Han, et cetera. It's actually doesn't bother me that he kills his former comrades because I figured he knows well enough after getting 'reconditioned' that he's in a kill or be killed situation if he doesn't get away from the FO. It's spending time with Poe and Rey and the friendships that start to take root which shake him out of his fear/selfishness.

* The whole scene with LST kind of beats that over the head with "something far worse has happened to you" and Rey starting directly at the woman she'll turn into if she continues to stay on Jakku as a scavenger.
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Re: Rey and Kylo Ren observations

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 8 Apr - 18:58

I got the impression it either grazed him or went clean through his side; it might have deflected off his ribs (ouch) in which case it wouldn't have hit anything vital.
It would have torn through muscle mostly, but the biggest threat would have been blood loss.
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Re: Rey and Kylo Ren observations

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 8 Apr - 19:01

snufkin wrote:It's been said on here before, but the fact that the presentation of him engaging in self-harm w/out judgement (more like a mixture of disgust from Finn and distress/pity from Rey) is pretty radical for a mainstream film. Especially one coming from Disney.

Finn's characterization is all over the place and from the WGA panel discussion with the 3 screenwriters, it sounds like he was created as a foil/sidekick to Rey's character and while they wanted to keep him, they didn't have an idea of what to do with him. It was Lawrence Kasdan's idea (because he got impatient with the figuring out part) to make him a runaway stormtrooper. Which was brilliant, but it didn't really pay off in the writing as he became the everyman/sidekick/comic relief. In term of motivation, it does seem like the "actual trio" are each shown to face what their future holds* if they don't change their ways. Finn sees his comrade bloody and dying (shot by Poe no less) and is panicked into realizing that's not what he wants for himself. He is pretty selfish/self preserving with his reasons for helping Poe escape, lying to Rey and Han, et cetera. It's actually doesn't bother me that he kills his former comrades because I figured he knows well enough after getting 'reconditioned' that he's in a kill or be killed situation if he doesn't get away from the FO. It's spending time with Poe and Rey and the friendships that start to take root which shake him out of his fear/selfishness.

* The whole scene with LST kind of beats that over the head with "something far worse has happened to you" and Rey starting directly at the woman she'll turn into if she continues to stay on Jakku as a scavenger.
@snufkin

Yes, the more you watch that scene the more it looks like he's just trying to hurt himself rather than anything else; I suspect with it's grey characters and thinly veiled child abuse the ST is going to be a whole lot darker than the OT in general.
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Re: Rey and Kylo Ren observations

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 8 Apr - 19:03

panki wrote:
Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@motherofpearl1

Oh yeah, you can see the blood on his belt. My question is, shouldn't a shot from the bowcaster have ripped a huge hole in his clothing? Like I'm thinking we should be able to see the wound and some exposed skin on his side? Maybe that's too gruesome for Disney.
@Cowgirlsamurai

There is an excellent video on youtube explaining why Kylo didn't get killed when Chewie shot him with the bowcaster....the jist of it is that the distance and angle from which Chewie made his shot reduced the impact....so while Kylo was definitely injured, maybe the wound wasn't wide enough to leave a gaping hole in his clothes and side.

@panki

They clearly haven't seen Adam unclothed have they... Embarassed Razz
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Re: Rey and Kylo Ren observations

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 8 Apr - 19:07

snufkin wrote:It's been said on here before, but the fact that the presentation of him engaging in self-harm w/out judgement (more like a mixture of disgust from Finn and distress/pity from Rey) is pretty radical for a mainstream film. Especially one coming from Disney.

Finn's characterization is all over the place and from the WGA panel discussion with the 3 screenwriters, it sounds like he was created as a foil/sidekick to Rey's character and while they wanted to keep him, they didn't have an idea of what to do with him. It was Lawrence Kasdan's idea (because he got impatient with the figuring out part) to make him a runaway stormtrooper. Which was brilliant, but it didn't really pay off in the writing as he became the everyman/sidekick/comic relief. In term of motivation, it does seem like the "actual trio" are each shown to face what their future holds* if they don't change their ways. Finn sees his comrade bloody and dying (shot by Poe no less) and is panicked into realizing that's not what he wants for himself. He is pretty selfish/self preserving with his reasons for helping Poe escape, lying to Rey and Han, et cetera. It's actually doesn't bother me that he kills his former comrades because I figured he knows well enough after getting 'reconditioned' that he's in a kill or be killed situation if he doesn't get away from the FO. It's spending time with Poe and Rey and the friendships that start to take root which shake him out of his fear/selfishness.

* The whole scene with LST kind of beats that over the head with "something far worse has happened to you" and Rey starting directly at the woman she'll turn into if she continues to stay on Jakku as a scavenger.
@snufkin

LST's choice of words always sticks in my mind...

Not "You have become something far worse" or "You have become a monster" but "Something has happened to you".
As if his 'fall' might not have have entirely been his fault.
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