Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

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Re: Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

Post by snufkin on Tue 10 May - 15:42

I sort of figured that Finn was there for the kids, as president of the Beautiful Friendship Gang. The writers definitely dropped the ball because he was set up to be somebody who breaks out and goes on the run specifically because he wants to save himself. Basically out for himself, except that meeting both Poe and Rey is supposed to help him grow into somebody more mature and selfless. The elements were there, but the execution (and using him far too much as the comic relief) was pretty sloppy. Hopefully the next chapter will have better writing and characterization, especially with it being by Rian Johnson.


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Re: Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

Post by AppleCrumble122 on Tue 10 May - 15:42

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
Darth Dingbat wrote:Regarding that butt-slapping spoiler, something just occurred to me.

We've often said that it's unbelievable how quickly everybody in the Resistance trusts Finn. Well, what if KMT's character does NOT trust him at first, but is forced to work with him? That would bring some real tension to their dynamic. Add to this some good chemistry and BOOM. Sparks flying, right there.

And though that butt-slapping scene sounds idiotic from the description, what if it actually serves a purpose in context, apart from him getting away from a sticky situation - KMT's character witnesses the exchange, and it feeds her suspicions?
@Darth Dingbat
This would be an interesting way to kick-start their dynamic. I would love to see KMT call Finn out on his behavior and motivations, make him question what he really wants, why he's scared, what really matters to him. There are a lot of ways they could improve Finn's characterization. KMT just seems like a logical step because we know he's going to be spending a good deal of time with her.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I agree. This would be perfect! I can't wait to see what KMT brings both to Finn and the story as a whole.
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Re: Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

Post by Irina de France on Tue 10 May - 15:43

All right, might as well add my input because I had to do my best not to cringe at some comments I’ve seen in this thread.

I apologize in advance if I offend anyone.

Frankly, if you prefer Kylo to Finn or Finn to Kylo, no one should get hate for that. It’s all a matter of personal taste. And if you think Finn’s character was handled poorly, it’s up to you as well. Overall, I really liked him, but the whole Stormtrooper thing was not done very well to be honest.

For a guy who has been brainwashed to be an automaton soldier since he’s a kid, he showed barely any trauma because of it. It didn’t really strike me until I saw the movie for the third time, but when he started shooting his former brothers-in-arms, I was shocked. And disgusted.

If Finn is set up to be the compassionate guy and all, and the first step to humanize Stormtroopers since they were pretty much “Those Guys Who Shoot At The Heroes But Always Miss Their Aim And Get Shot Instead, ROFLMAO”, having him shoot the Troopers is pretty bad storytelling.

I find it a bit hard to blame him for lying. Sure, it was wrong, but it was done half for comic relief (he’s trying to impress the girl lol), half because I’m pretty sure 90% of you guys would have done the same if you were in his position. It’s never a very good idea to start running around telling the first girl you meet you’re a runaway Stormtrooper, amirite?

I mean, the guy/girl lying to their crush to impress them is a trope as old as time. What does somehow deconstruct it, though, it that when Finn reveals the truth to Rey, she isn’t even angry about it. If the filmmakers are setting Finnrey as the endgame, they just ripped off any tension and failed at it overall.

Personally, I thought Finn was funny, but I guess it’s a matter of personal taste.

Also, I really don’t see where the accusation of him being a coward comes from? 1) He breaks free from years of brainwashing and manages to run away, rescuing a prisoner in the process (poorly done by the writers or not), 2) He goes back to Starkiller Base on a risky mission, just to save Rey, 3) He fights a wannabe/stand-in for a Sith Lord even though he knows very well he has absolutely no chance of winning and all that just to give Rey an opportunity to run away to safety.

We have two movies to go, and with Rian Johnson on board, I’m going to stay optimistic. And I don’t want to sound rude, but if you’re so intent on saying Kylo Ren is going to get a redemption and end up with Rey despite everything he’s done (don’t get me wrong, I hope for that ending too, but it’s still going to require some skill from the writers), why do you send Finn to the trash heap?

Frankly, it just looks as if people are scared for their ship and start bashing on a character just because he looks like a legitimate threat for their ship. I’ve seen the same in so many fandoms, (Redacted)And the Finn hate really looks visceral and I can’t help but feel uncomfortable.

But to be honest, I do see that kind of hate for Kylo from Finnrey shippers. But frankly, blaming Finn for existing because he encourages hate towards Kylo? Really?

Like, I feel uncomfortable with people who claim we shouldn’t feel sorry for Kylo because Finn went through similar trauma and that didn’t make him a bad person. They have a point, since your past doesn’t justify your actions, but it’s a whole other matter to start comparing two different ways of coping with a certain experience and start bashing on one for it, not to mention that it’s just plain wrong in my very humble opinion.

Seriously, instead of s******* on a character to feel more secure with your ship, find actual evidence.

I agree with what snufkin said just above, Finn is there for the little boys. He's the character that's most like them, period.


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Re: Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

Post by Kessel on Tue 10 May - 15:44

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
Darth Dingbat wrote:Regarding that butt-slapping spoiler, something just occurred to me.

We've often said that it's unbelievable how quickly everybody in the Resistance trusts Finn. Well, what if KMT's character does NOT trust him at first, but is forced to work with him? That would bring some real tension to their dynamic. Add to this some good chemistry and BOOM. Sparks flying, right there.

And though that butt-slapping scene sounds idiotic from the description, what if it actually serves a purpose in context, apart from him getting away from a sticky situation - KMT's character witnesses the exchange, and it feeds her suspicions?
@Darth Dingbat
This would be an interesting way to kick-start their dynamic. I would love to see KMT call Finn out on his behavior and motivations, make him question what he really wants, why he's scared, what really matters to him. There are a lot of ways they could improve Finn's characterization. KMT just seems like a logical step because we know he's going to be spending a good deal of time with her.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I agree, I really like this idea. It would be ironic too if the rumors about KMT are correct and she turns out to be a traitor to the Resistance. This may serve to jar Finn even more if she makes him question himself, come to terms with his motivations, and when he starts to develop feelings for her, she betrays him...
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Re: Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Tue 10 May - 15:49

Irina de France wrote:All right, might as well add my input because I had to do my best not to cringe at some comments I’ve seen in this thread.

I apologize in advance if I offend anyone.

Frankly, if you prefer Kylo to Finn or Finn to Kylo, no one should get hate for that. It’s all a matter of personal taste. And if you think Finn’s character was handled poorly, it’s up to you as well. Overall, I really liked him, but the whole Stormtrooper thing was not done very well to be honest.

For a guy who has been brainwashed to be an automaton soldier since he’s a kid, he showed barely any trauma because of it. It didn’t really strike me until I saw the movie for the third time, but when he started shooting his former brothers-in-arms, I was shocked. And disgusted.

If Finn is set up to be the compassionate guy and all, and the first step to humanize Stormtroopers since they were pretty much “Those Guys Who Shoot At The Heroes But Always Miss Their Aim And Get Shot Instead, ROFLMAO”, having him shoot the Troopers is pretty bad storytelling.

I find it a bit hard to blame him for lying. Sure, it was wrong, but it was done half for comic relief (he’s trying to impress the girl lol), half because I’m pretty sure 90% of you guys would have done the same if you were in his position. It’s never a very good idea to start running around telling the first girl you meet you’re a runaway Stormtrooper, amirite?

I mean, the guy/girl lying to their crush to impress them is a trope as old as time. What does somehow deconstruct it, though, it that when Finn reveals the truth to Rey, she isn’t even angry about it. If the filmmakers are setting Finnrey as the endgame, they just ripped off any tension and failed at it overall.

Personally, I thought Finn was funny, but I guess it’s a matter of personal taste.

Also, I really don’t see where the accusation of him being a coward comes from? 1) He breaks free from years of brainwashing and manages to run away, rescuing a prisoner in the process (poorly done by the writers or not), 2) He goes back to Starkiller Base on a risky mission, just to save Rey, 3) He fights a wannabe/stand-in for a Sith Lord even though he knows very well he has absolutely no chance of winning and all that just to give Rey an opportunity to run away to safety.

We have two movies to go, and with Rian Johnson on board, I’m going to stay optimistic. And I don’t want to sound rude, but if you’re so intent on saying Kylo Ren is going to get a redemption and end up with Rey despite everything he’s done (don’t get me wrong, I hope for that ending too, but it’s still going to require some skill from the writers), why do you send Finn to the trash heap?

Frankly, it just looks as if people are scared for their ship and start bashing on a character just because he looks like a legitimate threat for their ship. I’ve seen the same in so many fandomsRedacted And the Finn hate really looks visceral and I can’t help but feel uncomfortable.

But to be honest, I do see that kind of hate for Kylo from Finnrey shippers. But frankly, blaming Finn for existing because he encourages hate towards Kylo? Really?

Like, I feel uncomfortable with people who claim we shouldn’t feel sorry for Kylo because Finn went through similar trauma and that didn’t make him a bad person. They have a point, since your past doesn’t justify your actions, but it’s a whole other matter to start comparing two different ways of coping with a certain experience and start bashing on one for it, not to mention that it’s just plain wrong in my very humble opinion.

Seriously, instead of s******* on a character to feel more secure with your ship, find actual evidence.

I agree with what snufkin said just above, Finn is there for the little boys. He's the character that's most like them, period.
@Irina de France
This thread really is just a fight waiting to happen (or one that already happened... I'm not entirely sure) xD

I agree so much with the bolded. The bashing makes me SO uncomfortable. Cringy is the right word. Hating on a fictional character because of a few of his fans is just... I don't understand. I don't see Finn is a threat, but it makes me wonder if some do. @Snufkin is quite right, he's more of a kid-friendly character, someone to carry the comic-relief and heart. I thought he really had his endearing moments. Some of his characterization was sloppy, but that's that. It's over.
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Re: Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

Post by AppleCrumble122 on Tue 10 May - 15:57

@Irina de France

Brilliant post! Claps
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Re: Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

Post by Darth Dingbat on Tue 10 May - 16:11

Not trying to be annoying (though I undoubtedly will come across that way Very Happy) but both sides of the issue should remember that Finn is just a character. He's a bundle of tropes, dialogue, all kinds of elements that were put into the character, either intentionally or accidentally. Because Finn's characterisation was less than satisfactory on the whole, different elements - mostly, contradictory elements - stand out as annoying, different degrees of annoying, to different people.

I see a big difference between most Kylo haters and Finn haters. Kylo haters tend to "buy" the character, and hate him as if he were a real person. Finn haters latch onto the unsatisfactory elements of the characterisation and hate on them. I would argue that the latter is therefore more clearly a criticism of the writing. At least it usually is. Very few people criticise the way Kylo was written; they just hate him as a "human being".

I confess I don't get uncomfortable at all if somebody hates a fictional character. I may be annoyed if I disagree, but I don't find it in any way disturbing. (Even the Kylo hate only disturbs me when it touches on real-life issues in an uncomfortable way, like the way some people are fond of railing how Kylo should be "put down" like a rabid dog because he's "mentally ill" and how such a messed-up person is never going to get better.) The more vocally they hate a character, the more it proves they engaged with the work of fiction on an emotional level.

As a funny example of chacun à son goût, friend of mine gets legitimately angry whenever somebody mentions Elizabeth Bennet... she loved Darcy, detested Lizzy, and her hatred of Lizzy is ridiculously over-the-top Very Happy I don't know where that anger comes from. (For the record, I love Lizzy.)
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Re: Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

Post by Irina de France on Tue 10 May - 16:17

Darth Dingbat wrote:Not trying to be annoying (though I undoubtedly will come across that way Very Happy) but both sides of the issue should remember that Finn is just a character. He's a bundle of tropes, dialogue, all kinds of elements that were put into the character, either intentionally or accidentally. Because Finn's characterisation was less than satisfactory on the whole, different elements - mostly, contradictory elements - stand out as annoying, different degrees of annoying, to different people.

I see a big difference between most Kylo haters and Finn haters. Kylo haters tend to "buy" the character, and hate him as if he were a real person. Finn haters latch onto the unsatisfactory elements of the characterisation and hate on them. I would argue that the latter is therefore more clearly a criticism of the writing. At least it usually is. Very few people criticise the way Kylo was written; they just hate him as a "human being".

I confess I don't get uncomfortable at all if somebody hates a fictional character. I may be annoyed if I disagree, but I don't find it in any way disturbing. (Even the Kylo hate only disturbs me when it touches on real-life issues in an uncomfortable way, like the way some people are fond of railing how Kylo should be "put down" like a rabid dog because he's "mentally ill" and how such a messed-up person is never going to get better.) The more vocally they hate a character, the more it proves they engaged with the work of fiction on an emotional level.

As a funny example of chacun à son goût, friend of mine gets legitimately angry whenever somebody mentions Elizabeth Bennet... she loved Darcy, detested Lizzy, and her hatred of Lizzy is ridiculously over-the-top Very Happy I don't know where that anger comes from. (For the record, I love Lizzy.)
@Darth Dingbat

I see what you mean, and I apologize also by the way if my post looked like a personal attack (I just saw the mod modification). It wasn't my intention.

I guess some of us are a bit jumpy about people hating on Finn because of what antis yell about Reylos. But hey.

I still can't help but think hating a character that much isn't justified.
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Re: Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

Post by MoonlitMoss on Tue 10 May - 16:23

There is a thread that was created for Finn. The two have been merged together to make one large discussion thread.

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Re: Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

Post by vaderito on Tue 10 May - 16:30

Darth Dingbat wrote:Not trying to be annoying (though I undoubtedly will come across that way Very Happy) but both sides of the issue should remember that Finn is just a character. He's a bundle of tropes, dialogue, all kinds of elements that were put into the character, either intentionally or accidentally. Because Finn's characterisation was less than satisfactory on the whole, different elements - mostly, contradictory elements - stand out as annoying, different degrees of annoying, to different people.

I see a big difference between most Kylo haters and Finn haters. Kylo haters tend to "buy" the character, and hate him as if he were a real person. Finn haters latch onto the unsatisfactory elements of the characterisation and hate on them. I would argue that the latter is therefore more clearly a criticism of the writing. At least it usually is. Very few people criticise the way Kylo was written; they just hate him as a "human being".

I confess I don't get uncomfortable at all if somebody hates a fictional character. I may be annoyed if I disagree, but I don't find it in any way disturbing. (Even the Kylo hate only disturbs me when it touches on real-life issues in an uncomfortable way, like the way some people are fond of railing how Kylo should be "put down" like a rabid dog because he's "mentally ill" and how such a messed-up person is never going to get better.) The more vocally they hate a character, the more it proves they engaged with the work of fiction on an emotional level.

As a funny example of chacun à son goût, friend of mine gets legitimately angry whenever somebody mentions Elizabeth Bennet... she loved Darcy, detested Lizzy, and her hatred of Lizzy is ridiculously over-the-top Very Happy I don't know where that anger comes from. (For the record, I love Lizzy.)
@Darth Dingbat

Exactly! Kylo is so well written people hate him as a real person because they almost feel he's real. Finn is so unrealistic it's beyond ridiculous. You could feel that writers were walking on egg shells trying not to make him even 1% unlikable or bad or whatever. They did the same with Rey for the most part, what's with all that annoying superiority at virtually everything? That tends to happen when agenda pushing takes over from writing a good character. They wanted inspirational minority characters first, good characters second or maybe they never cared to make them any less than artificial role models so that Internet arbiters of what's prim and proper wouldn't throw twitter tantrum #45696084. Poe is just as bad.
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Re: Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

Post by Irina de France on Tue 10 May - 16:32

vaderito wrote:
Darth Dingbat wrote:Not trying to be annoying (though I undoubtedly will come across that way Very Happy) but both sides of the issue should remember that Finn is just a character. He's a bundle of tropes, dialogue, all kinds of elements that were put into the character, either intentionally or accidentally. Because Finn's characterisation was less than satisfactory on the whole, different elements - mostly, contradictory elements - stand out as annoying, different degrees of annoying, to different people.

I see a big difference between most Kylo haters and Finn haters. Kylo haters tend to "buy" the character, and hate him as if he were a real person. Finn haters latch onto the unsatisfactory elements of the characterisation and hate on them. I would argue that the latter is therefore more clearly a criticism of the writing. At least it usually is. Very few people criticise the way Kylo was written; they just hate him as a "human being".

I confess I don't get uncomfortable at all if somebody hates a fictional character. I may be annoyed if I disagree, but I don't find it in any way disturbing. (Even the Kylo hate only disturbs me when it touches on real-life issues in an uncomfortable way, like the way some people are fond of railing how Kylo should be "put down" like a rabid dog because he's "mentally ill" and how such a messed-up person is never going to get better.) The more vocally they hate a character, the more it proves they engaged with the work of fiction on an emotional level.

As a funny example of chacun à son goût, friend of mine gets legitimately angry whenever somebody mentions Elizabeth Bennet... she loved Darcy, detested Lizzy, and her hatred of Lizzy is ridiculously over-the-top Very Happy I don't know where that anger comes from. (For the record, I love Lizzy.)
@Darth Dingbat

Exactly! Kylo is so well written people hate him as a real person because they almost feel he's real. Finn is so unrealistic it's beyond ridiculous. You could feel that writers were walking on egg shells trying not to make him even 1% unlikable or bad or whatever. They did the same with Rey for the most part, what's with all that annoying superiority at virtually everything? That tends to happen when agenda pushing takes over from writing a good character. They wanted inspirational minority characters first, good characters second or maybe they never cared to make them any less than artificial role models so that Internet arbiters of what's prim and proper wouldn't throw twitter tantrum #45696084. Poe is just as bad.
@vaderito

Sadly, that's very true. That reminds me of ladies from the MCU and the only really realistically written lady I've seen until now is Jessica Jones.
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Re: Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

Post by vaderito on Tue 10 May - 16:36

@Irina de France Ladies of MCU are great example. They are not allowed to be less than perfect especially BW a poster for Mary Sue if there was ever one. I mean, why is she as strong and unbreakable as someone who has a suit or powers or received super soldier serum? Nothing in the movies hinted she was like that and yet she's up there with all of them. Jessica Jones is different cause TV and not mainstream (network) TV, so they can take chances.
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Re: Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

Post by snufkin on Tue 10 May - 16:36

One of the other names I've read as mentioned was Michael B. Jordan, which would've been amazing. Not that Boyega isn't a great/charismatic actor and ambassador for the franchise, but Jordan cut his teeth on doing both the Wire and Friday Night Lights. If he had been Finn, there would've been some serious competition between him and KR for Rey (and I'd have bought Finn more as a former soldier). I really do think that Finn is the kid-friendly character and storyline, which is why I was so bored and wanted to skip ahead to Rey w/KR or the mature more realistic/morally conflicted versions of Han and Leia.
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Re: Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

Post by vaderito on Tue 10 May - 16:38

snufkin wrote:One of the other names I've read as mentioned was Michael B. Jordan, which would've been amazing. Not that Boyega isn't a great/charismatic actor and ambassador for the franchise, but Jordan cut his teeth on doing both the Wire and Friday Night Lights. If he had been Finn, there would've been some serious competition between him and KR for Rey (and I'd have bought Finn more as a former soldier).
@snufkin

Hear hear! MBJ would not be a goofball Finn, that's for sure. And yes, that would be a serious competition. I mena, this:



vs this



Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil


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Re: Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Tue 10 May - 16:40

Darth Dingbat wrote:Not trying to be annoying (though I undoubtedly will come across that way Very Happy) but both sides of the issue should remember that Finn is just a character. He's a bundle of tropes, dialogue, all kinds of elements that were put into the character, either intentionally or accidentally. Because Finn's characterisation was less than satisfactory on the whole, different elements - mostly, contradictory elements - stand out as annoying, different degrees of annoying, to different people.

I see a big difference between most Kylo haters and Finn haters. Kylo haters tend to "buy" the character, and hate him as if he were a real person. Finn haters latch onto the unsatisfactory elements of the characterisation and hate on them. I would argue that the latter is therefore more clearly a criticism of the writing. At least it usually is. Very few people criticise the way Kylo was written; they just hate him as a "human being".

I confess I don't get uncomfortable at all if somebody hates a fictional character. I may be annoyed if I disagree, but I don't find it in any way disturbing. (Even the Kylo hate only disturbs me when it touches on real-life issues in an uncomfortable way, like the way some people are fond of railing how Kylo should be "put down" like a rabid dog because he's "mentally ill" and how such a messed-up person is never going to get better.) The more vocally they hate a character, the more it proves they engaged with the work of fiction on an emotional level.

As a funny example of chacun à son goût, friend of mine gets legitimately angry whenever somebody mentions Elizabeth Bennet... she loved Darcy, detested Lizzy, and her hatred of Lizzy is ridiculously over-the-top Very Happy I don't know where that anger comes from. (For the record, I love Lizzy.)
@Darth Dingbat
This is very true, but I did see some real bashing in this thread as well. There was a pretty even mixture of bashing and constructive criticism going on. There is nothing wrong with the latter, but the former can feel like it comes from a place of insecurity rather than genuine opinion. There are no characters I dislike so much that I could write entire paragraphs explaining why I hate them... okay, that's not true, there is one (in my entire history of loving stories). Angel from Buffy. But that's neither here nor there. I can acknowledge why I don't like a character or why I think they were badly written without bringing up the word "hate" or saying I want that character to die horribly. It's about the story for me, how the character was constructed and how he can or cannot be improved through writing. It's the truly visceral hate that makes me uncomfortable, the hate that extends beyond criticism.

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Re: Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Tue 10 May - 16:42

snufkin wrote:One of the other names I've read as mentioned was Michael B. Jordan, which would've been amazing. Not that Boyega isn't a great/charismatic actor and ambassador for the franchise, but Jordan cut his teeth on doing both the Wire and Friday Night Lights. If he had been Finn, there would've been some serious competition between him and KR for Rey (and I'd have bought Finn more as a former soldier). I really do think that Finn is the kid-friendly character and storyline, which is why I was so bored and wanted to skip ahead to Rey w/KR or the mature more realistic/morally conflicted versions of Han and Leia.
@snufkin

MBJ is friggin' hot.

He's also a few years older and looks a few years older than John Boyega. If they wanted to go with a "sexy Finn" (over a "cute, cuddly Finn"), MBJ would have been the right choice.

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Re: Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Tue 10 May - 16:45

vaderito wrote:
Darth Dingbat wrote:Not trying to be annoying (though I undoubtedly will come across that way Very Happy) but both sides of the issue should remember that Finn is just a character. He's a bundle of tropes, dialogue, all kinds of elements that were put into the character, either intentionally or accidentally. Because Finn's characterisation was less than satisfactory on the whole, different elements - mostly, contradictory elements - stand out as annoying, different degrees of annoying, to different people.

I see a big difference between most Kylo haters and Finn haters. Kylo haters tend to "buy" the character, and hate him as if he were a real person. Finn haters latch onto the unsatisfactory elements of the characterisation and hate on them. I would argue that the latter is therefore more clearly a criticism of the writing. At least it usually is. Very few people criticise the way Kylo was written; they just hate him as a "human being".

I confess I don't get uncomfortable at all if somebody hates a fictional character. I may be annoyed if I disagree, but I don't find it in any way disturbing. (Even the Kylo hate only disturbs me when it touches on real-life issues in an uncomfortable way, like the way some people are fond of railing how Kylo should be "put down" like a rabid dog because he's "mentally ill" and how such a messed-up person is never going to get better.) The more vocally they hate a character, the more it proves they engaged with the work of fiction on an emotional level.

As a funny example of chacun à son goût, friend of mine gets legitimately angry whenever somebody mentions Elizabeth Bennet... she loved Darcy, detested Lizzy, and her hatred of Lizzy is ridiculously over-the-top Very Happy I don't know where that anger comes from. (For the record, I love Lizzy.)
@Darth Dingbat

Exactly! Kylo is so well written people hate him as a real person because they almost feel he's real. Finn is so unrealistic it's beyond ridiculous. You could feel that writers were walking on egg shells trying not to make him even 1% unlikable or bad or whatever. They did the same with Rey for the most part, what's with all that annoying superiority at virtually everything? That tends to happen when agenda pushing takes over from writing a good character. They wanted inspirational minority characters first, good characters second or maybe they never cared to make them any less than artificial role models so that Internet arbiters of what's prim and proper wouldn't throw twitter tantrum #45696084. Poe is just as bad.
@vaderito
Funny thing is I think Pablo has received a grand total of 5 questions about Finn since TFA came out, while he gets questions about Kylo ever single day. People want to know everything about him (what he's good at, what he went through, how he feels, etc.) There is real love for the character, his backstory, his parents, etc. Finn doesn't receive that luxury because he wasn't that interesting to most fans. He didn't make a mark. That speaks for itself IMO.
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Re: Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

Post by Irina de France on Tue 10 May - 16:47

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
vaderito wrote:
Darth Dingbat wrote:Not trying to be annoying (though I undoubtedly will come across that way Very Happy) but both sides of the issue should remember that Finn is just a character. He's a bundle of tropes, dialogue, all kinds of elements that were put into the character, either intentionally or accidentally. Because Finn's characterisation was less than satisfactory on the whole, different elements - mostly, contradictory elements - stand out as annoying, different degrees of annoying, to different people.

I see a big difference between most Kylo haters and Finn haters. Kylo haters tend to "buy" the character, and hate him as if he were a real person. Finn haters latch onto the unsatisfactory elements of the characterisation and hate on them. I would argue that the latter is therefore more clearly a criticism of the writing. At least it usually is. Very few people criticise the way Kylo was written; they just hate him as a "human being".

I confess I don't get uncomfortable at all if somebody hates a fictional character. I may be annoyed if I disagree, but I don't find it in any way disturbing. (Even the Kylo hate only disturbs me when it touches on real-life issues in an uncomfortable way, like the way some people are fond of railing how Kylo should be "put down" like a rabid dog because he's "mentally ill" and how such a messed-up person is never going to get better.) The more vocally they hate a character, the more it proves they engaged with the work of fiction on an emotional level.

As a funny example of chacun à son goût, friend of mine gets legitimately angry whenever somebody mentions Elizabeth Bennet... she loved Darcy, detested Lizzy, and her hatred of Lizzy is ridiculously over-the-top Very Happy I don't know where that anger comes from. (For the record, I love Lizzy.)
@Darth Dingbat

Exactly! Kylo is so well written people hate him as a real person because they almost feel he's real. Finn is so unrealistic it's beyond ridiculous. You could feel that writers were walking on egg shells trying not to make him even 1% unlikable or bad or whatever. They did the same with Rey for the most part, what's with all that annoying superiority at virtually everything? That tends to happen when agenda pushing takes over from writing a good character. They wanted inspirational minority characters first, good characters second or maybe they never cared to make them any less than artificial role models so that Internet arbiters of what's prim and proper wouldn't throw twitter tantrum #45696084. Poe is just as bad.
@vaderito
Funny thing is I think Pablo has received a grand total of 5 questions about Finn since TFA came out, while he gets questions about Kylo ever single day. People want to know everything about him (what he's good at, what he went through, how he feels, etc.) There is real love for the character, his backstory, his parents, etc. Finn doesn't receive that luxury because he wasn't that interesting to most fans. He didn't make a mark. That speaks for itself IMO.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Well, thing is, Kylo Ren is a mystery box. Rey is a mystery box. Finn is not.
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Re: Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

Post by Darth Dingbat on Tue 10 May - 16:48

They do seem to have lacked a clear vision for Finn. Not only would MBJ be very different casting from John, but he also couldn't be more different from Jesse Plemons.
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Re: Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Tue 10 May - 16:53

Irina de France wrote:
FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
vaderito wrote:
Darth Dingbat wrote:Not trying to be annoying (though I undoubtedly will come across that way Very Happy) but both sides of the issue should remember that Finn is just a character. He's a bundle of tropes, dialogue, all kinds of elements that were put into the character, either intentionally or accidentally. Because Finn's characterisation was less than satisfactory on the whole, different elements - mostly, contradictory elements - stand out as annoying, different degrees of annoying, to different people.

I see a big difference between most Kylo haters and Finn haters. Kylo haters tend to "buy" the character, and hate him as if he were a real person. Finn haters latch onto the unsatisfactory elements of the characterisation and hate on them. I would argue that the latter is therefore more clearly a criticism of the writing. At least it usually is. Very few people criticise the way Kylo was written; they just hate him as a "human being".

I confess I don't get uncomfortable at all if somebody hates a fictional character. I may be annoyed if I disagree, but I don't find it in any way disturbing. (Even the Kylo hate only disturbs me when it touches on real-life issues in an uncomfortable way, like the way some people are fond of railing how Kylo should be "put down" like a rabid dog because he's "mentally ill" and how such a messed-up person is never going to get better.) The more vocally they hate a character, the more it proves they engaged with the work of fiction on an emotional level.

As a funny example of chacun à son goût, friend of mine gets legitimately angry whenever somebody mentions Elizabeth Bennet... she loved Darcy, detested Lizzy, and her hatred of Lizzy is ridiculously over-the-top Very Happy I don't know where that anger comes from. (For the record, I love Lizzy.)
@Darth Dingbat

Exactly! Kylo is so well written people hate him as a real person because they almost feel he's real. Finn is so unrealistic it's beyond ridiculous. You could feel that writers were walking on egg shells trying not to make him even 1% unlikable or bad or whatever. They did the same with Rey for the most part, what's with all that annoying superiority at virtually everything? That tends to happen when agenda pushing takes over from writing a good character. They wanted inspirational minority characters first, good characters second or maybe they never cared to make them any less than artificial role models so that Internet arbiters of what's prim and proper wouldn't throw twitter tantrum #45696084. Poe is just as bad.
@vaderito
Funny thing is I think Pablo has received a grand total of 5 questions about Finn since TFA came out, while he gets questions about Kylo ever single day. People want to know everything about him (what he's good at, what he went through, how he feels, etc.) There is real love for the character, his backstory, his parents, etc. Finn doesn't receive that luxury because he wasn't that interesting to most fans. He didn't make a mark. That speaks for itself IMO.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Well, thing is, Kylo Ren is a mystery box. Rey is a mystery box. Finn is not.
@Irina de France
Finn has his mystery-boxness as well. The whole "awakening" thing, the potentially Force Sensitive thing (though he isn't in my opinion). There are areas people could be asking about, but nobody does. Yet they ask all kinds of questions about Kylo, ones that address the mystery box and ones that don't. You can really tell how much people care about the character. There is concern for his childhood well-being. Finn is not given that same respect by fans, critics, whatever. Finn just didn't have as much of an impact in general.
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Re: Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

Post by Irina de France on Tue 10 May - 16:56

@FrolickingFizzgig No to mention my nine-year-old little brother definitely preferred Kylo than Finn... *sigh*

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Re: Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

Post by snufkin on Tue 10 May - 16:57

vaderito wrote:
snufkin wrote:One of the other names I've read as mentioned was Michael B. Jordan, which would've been amazing. Not that Boyega isn't a great/charismatic actor and ambassador for the franchise, but Jordan cut his teeth on doing both the Wire and Friday Night Lights. If he had been Finn, there would've been some serious competition between him and KR for Rey (and I'd have bought Finn more as a former soldier).
@snufkin

Hear hear! MBJ would not be a goofball Finn, that's for sure. And yes, that would be a serious competition. I mena, this:



vs this



Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
@vaderito



And MBJ is as good an actor as Adam Driver, they would've gone head to head. Serious competition.

Also ha, that's right they auditioned both Vince and Landry and we know that Jess very smartly chose Vince in the end. Although now I'm wondering why my favorite, Matt Saracen (I kinda think Rey's has a bit of a Matt Saracen to her) wasn't considered.
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Re: Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

Post by vaderito on Tue 10 May - 16:57

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
Funny thing is I think Pablo has received a grand total of 5 questions about Finn since TFA came out, while he gets questions about Kylo ever single day. People want to know everything about him (what he's good at, what he went through, how he feels, etc.) There is real love for the character, his backstory, his parents, etc. Finn doesn't receive that luxury because he wasn't that interesting to most fans. He didn't make a mark. That speaks for itself IMO.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Ha, that's a good point!

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Re: Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

Post by SoloSideCousin on Tue 10 May - 16:58

vaderito wrote:
snufkin wrote:One of the other names I've read as mentioned was Michael B. Jordan, which would've been amazing. Not that Boyega isn't a great/charismatic actor and ambassador for the franchise, but Jordan cut his teeth on doing both the Wire and Friday Night Lights. If he had been Finn, there would've been some serious competition between him and KR for Rey (and I'd have bought Finn more as a former soldier).
@snufkin

Hear hear! MBJ would not be a goofball Finn, that's for sure. And yes, that would be a serious competition. I mena, this:



vs this



Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
@vaderito

I heard he was amazing in Creed. He definitely seems to be in that AD category of "generational" actors that will make a huge mark.
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Re: Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Tue 10 May - 16:58

Darth Dingbat wrote:They do seem to have lacked a clear vision for Finn. Not only would MBJ be very different casting from John, but he also couldn't be more different from Jesse Plemons.
@Darth Dingbat
If Finn and Rey were never intended to be romantic interests, they went in the right direction when they chose a more "boyish" actor.
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