Reylo spotlighted by The Atlantic

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Reylo spotlighted by The Atlantic

Post by nonesuch on Wed 30 Mar - 15:00

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/03/reylo/471768/

Who's seen this?! I think it's pretty fair and balanced overall, and it's nice to see that he author actually interviewed Reylo fans to get their thoughts and opinions. It's so strange seeing the fandom get this kind of mainstream press exposure! It proves what we already suspected - people are very, very aware of the Reylo phenomenon and it's a decidedly big thing.

(I hope this is the right forum for this, btw - it's a tricky one to place since it's about the ship itself, if that makes sense. Feel free to move to somewhere more appropriate, if necessary!)
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Re: Reylo spotlighted by The Atlantic

Post by AnneNeville on Wed 30 Mar - 15:25

@Force22 The author does present the possibility that Reylo shippers "might hint at the story of the next two sequels," which is frankly a lot more supportive and generous that I ever would have expected.
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Re: Reylo spotlighted by The Atlantic

Post by BastilaBey on Wed 30 Mar - 15:28

The writer probably doesn't want to hedge their bets too much, whether calling it a trash ship or the future of canon. Nobody knows at this point, even though we have all obviously seen things in the film that make us think it's a strong possibility. I just can't believe the pairing is getting press from somewhere like The Atlantic, but since 50 shades fanfiction is probably taken a bit more seriously as a potential cash cow.
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Re: Reylo spotlighted by The Atlantic

Post by nonesuch on Wed 30 Mar - 15:35

@AnneNeville wrote:@Force22 The author does present the possibility that Reylo shippers "might hint at the story of the next two sequels," which is frankly a lot more supportive and generous that I ever would have expected.

Agreed. At this point, no mainstream publication is going to present Reylo as an absolute certainty. To do so would make them look unprofessional - Reylo is only present as subtext right now, and it isn't overt. While we have very strong reasons to believe the ship is supported by the film, they are based on extensive theorising and analysis - Reylo is not, as of yet, an overt element of the saga and it shouldn't be discussed as such. I felt the author was really behind the ship, given the circumstances - journalists aren't going to sit down and comb through every intricate discussion we had on the mother of threads, but this guy clearly did his homework and presented the ship as something with grounding in certain elements of the film and the characters. I think that shows enormous respect, and I appreciate it greatly.
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Re: Reylo spotlighted by The Atlantic

Post by AnneNeville on Wed 30 Mar - 15:42

@nonesuch wrote:
@AnneNeville wrote:@Force22 The author does present the possibility that Reylo shippers "might hint at the story of the next two sequels," which is frankly a lot more supportive and generous that I ever would have expected.

Agreed. At this point, no mainstream publication is going to present Reylo as an absolute certainty. To do so would make them look unprofessional - Reylo is only present as subtext right now, and it isn't overt. While we have very strong reasons to believe the ship is supported by the film, they are based on extensive theorising and analysis - Reylo is not, as of yet, an overt element of the saga and it shouldn't be discussed as such. I felt the author was really behind the ship, given the circumstances - journalists aren't going to sit down and comb through every intricate discussion we had on the mother of threads, but this guy clearly did his homework and presented the ship as something with grounding in certain elements of the film and the characters. I think that shows enormous respect, and I appreciate it greatly.

The overall tone was much more "these women are carefully analyzing and correcting social injustice while creating and fantasizing" than "lol wimmin n their hormonz rite?" and I am grateful.
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Re: Reylo spotlighted by The Atlantic

Post by BastilaBey on Wed 30 Mar - 15:57

I will say that i had a problem with the part about Kylo being shipped with Rey just because she's the only female character other than his mother. 1) What about Phasma? Is Phaslo a thing? and 2) Reylo isn't a pairing for its own sake, it's based largely on symbology and subtext from the movie. But, then, if the writer isn't particularly a Star Wars fan or hasn't actually read the metas they're linking to, that might be too much detail to go into.
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Re: Reylo spotlighted by The Atlantic

Post by AnneNeville on Wed 30 Mar - 16:03

Mentions of analysis of Hierarchy of Needs, references to @Ohtze's pages of painstaking theorizing (with implication that there are others, too), fans "plausibly arguing" that FinnRey is a red herring . . . All these details present Reylos and Reyloish people as thoughtful and intelligent. Quotes generally made the writers sound articulate. Reporters can do far, far worse. I would have expected a tone more similar to what we have gotten on other sites on the internet.
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Re: Reylo spotlighted by The Atlantic

Post by vaderito on Wed 30 Mar - 17:17

@AnneNeville wrote:@Force22 The author does present the possibility that Reylo shippers "might hint at the story of the next two sequels," which is frankly a lot more supportive and generous that I ever would have expected.

Agreed. I think that they don't want to outright back up something that they feel may not happen (hence why usual caveat that "everyone expects/expected Finnrey to be the main romance, but...") and I think that's due to conditioning. Marketing was Reylo-free so they still go by who's advertised as the couple vs who is obviously set up in the movie. Even though they outlined several times that the movie makes Finn and Rey FRIENDS.
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Re: Reylo spotlighted by The Atlantic

Post by nonesuch on Wed 30 Mar - 17:31

While I can understand some of people's concerns in relation to the article, I do think people should be careful to avoid automatically treating something from a perceived 'outsider' as hostile and denigrating to shippers. The author clearly went to great pains to present shippers as intelligent people who are coming at the ship from a place that isn't just 'OMG Adam Driver is like so hot!' And given how I have seen shippers presented elsewhere, that's really impressive and something to be grateful for.

I also think there's a danger of becoming convinced in the reality of Reylo to the point that anything that seems to suggest that Reylo won't be canon is construed as an attack. I don't mean to tell people how to ship, but I do think it's important to try and be open minded and remember that other people - especially a journalist writing for The Atlantic - will automatically be approaching Reylo from a very different perspective. That different perspective doesn't mean they are belittling people, just that they are approaching things with a different frame of mind and a different focus. That's healthy for debate and analysis, and isn't something to be feared or dissuaded.
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Re: Reylo spotlighted by The Atlantic

Post by CienaRee on Wed 30 Mar - 18:15

@Force22,While I agree with many of your points I've seen some Reylo shippers specifically on tumblr who don't think Reylo will become cannon and if it does it will be one sided.
Also Reylo stated as a ship that even those shipping it believed it won't happen because of the Rey Skywalker possibility hence the "teach"word being attached to it.
If you think about it it's been only 3 months yet during those 3 months Reylo actually became a real possibility.I can't even imagine where that ship will be in 2017,lol.

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Re: Reylo spotlighted by The Atlantic

Post by vaderito on Wed 30 Mar - 18:20

@nonesuch wrote:While I can understand some of people's concerns in relation to the article, I do think people should be careful to avoid automatically treating something from a perceived 'outsider' as hostile and denigrating to shippers. The author clearly went to great pains to present shippers as intelligent people who are coming at the ship from a place that isn't just 'OMG Adam Driver is like so hot!' And given how I have seen shippers presented elsewhere, that's really impressive and something to be grateful for.

I also think there's a danger of becoming convinced in the reality of Reylo to the point that anything that seems to suggest that Reylo won't be canon is construed as an attack. I don't mean to tell people how to ship, but I do think it's important to try and be open minded and remember that other people - especially a journalist writing for The Atlantic - will automatically be approaching Reylo from a very different perspective. That different perspective doesn't mean they are belittling people, just that they are approaching things with a different frame of mind and a different focus. That's healthy for debate and analysis, and isn't something to be feared or dissuaded.

You make a great point but I think that really unfortunate headline undermines the article somewhat. It trivializes the point of the exercise and doesn't fit the intelligent and balanced few presented it the text. I understand they chose the title to attract clicks rather than to offend but it's also understandable that some fans are not amused. 50 Shades is exactly the type of romance that Reylo doesn't want to be associated with but is often accused of being.
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Re: Reylo spotlighted by The Atlantic

Post by SanghaRen on Wed 30 Mar - 20:43

Joining the debate! I liked the article. I think it's a good general article that describes the whole phenomenon.

I also think (sorry in advance for this) that we should consider that Reylo might not be end game. Rey could still end with Finn (although I see it less and less as a possibility) or with no one. And Reylo would stay there as subtext, as something that could have happened. Obviously if it stays as subtext, Reylos will forever be bashed by the anti unless someone from LF specifically says that it was indeed there but not developed :-/

What irks me most is the part on racism. I hope I am not veering into forbidden territories here (mods : don't hesitate to slap me, if so). I am really fed up of having to explain as a white person that I don't care about the skin color of another person. If anything I am jealous of the color of some people's skin because I look like a zombie in winter and let's not talk about the white legs sticking out of skirts and shorts in spring/summer (sob). I do understand where people implying racism issues in shipping Reylo come from, but having people feel guilty for their liking just because it does not fit your social agenda is not going to help. Especially if these are the very same people who actually do not care about skin color.

And to venture in another debate, it is true that 50 Shades of Grey is actually a comparison many of us dislike. I also have not read the book or seen the movie and have no intention to do it either. However, one must admit that the Reylo community as a whole does not help neither. I mean if you browse the web searching for Reylo, the chances are great you'll end on some erotic essai from a fan. And some fan art is really suggestive. So of course 50 Shades of Grey will come up. In the end, it's also up to us to then show that this is not the case. And to a certain extent, it can be fun too. People are so in their "you're just into it to satisfy your weird cravings" that they are surprised when you actually give them other perspectives.

I think some of us have been wounded from our experience in another forum, but let's not forget that forums only represent a minority. Did you experience this kind of reaction from people around you too? I don't speak about it with people around me because they actually don't care for movies in general so they would snore after 2 minutes of me explaining why Kylo Ren is not the villain we think he is and that maybe there will be something between Rey and him (already snoring by then).

The article is a good start. Today I have read 2 things that were encouraging : this article and one that mentioned that some people see Kylo moving more towards the light side. So, all good :-)

I hope I did not sound like I was lecturing.
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Re: Reylo spotlighted by The Atlantic

Post by vaderito on Wed 30 Mar - 20:48

50 Shades title is used only because Rey rhymes with Grey. Magazine writers think that all wisdom is in wordplay so we get headlines like 50 Shades of Gray/Rey, Fellowship of the Ring Lords It Over the Competition (Boxoffice reports are high on predictable wordplay in particular) and similar "gems". It's really not even an intention to compare Reylo to the infamous "mommy porn". Just unfortunate word play.
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Re: Reylo spotlighted by The Atlantic

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed 30 Mar - 20:56

Overall, I thought that it was a pretty fair article (outside of the racism jab at the end).

What I found interesting/surprising is that it glossed over the main thing that drew many of us to this ship to begin with--the onscreen chemistry between Adam Driver and Daisy Ridley. I know that was the first thing that many of us noticed...and then once we started thinking about it/analyzing/reading and posting online...that's when we started seeing all of the other foreshadowing and details.

The article seemed to say that the popularity grew out of people's wishlists. However, I think that without that onscreen chemistry as a starting point, this would be a much smaller ship.
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Re: Reylo spotlighted by The Atlantic

Post by SoloSideCousin on Wed 30 Mar - 23:59

I am going to start this post with the caveat that I am writing this based on one reading of the article while being underfed for the day so far while simultaneously dealing with bad sinus pressure because of a change in weather. I am also on my phone in a restaurant waiting for my ridiculously late lunch, so if I am more blunt than usual please blame my low blood sugar and the evil allergens. ;-)

So getting that out of way, I am not in love with this article.

But before I get into my criticisms I have to say that it is absolutely amazing and unbelievable to see our viewpoint not only being addressed at all by a prestigious publication like The Atlantic, (a website I personally frequent often because the article variety and quality is often excellent), but particularly being presented as a legitimate point of view. We have people on this forum saying that there were scared of posting anywhere else for fear of being branded crazy or sick, and here is The Atlantic, not some idiotic entertainment or fan site, but The Atlantic saying we are not crazy is extraordinary. The Atlantic admits we have legitimate arguments, and the mere fact that they picked it up at all tells us that we are part of good sized group of largely silent people who think that "something was there." Three months ago it was called a trash ship and people were asking in whispering tones, "Is there something between Kylo and Rey?" Now respected press outlets are openly dealing with that question ... because it has now become a cultural phenomenon question that has survived and grown after the initial hype of the movie has long died down. That is hugely validating, especially in light of what some have had deal with online.

That being said IMO the article is disappointing and lazy. It probably took all of two days to complete the research and writing if the article. The author links to Ohtze, but she never received a call. Instead, they (can't remember the name now) only go to those Interstellar Transmission writers as their big source of Reylo credibility. I never read that fic. I think I tried once and it didn't grab me. From the author's description it sounds a little sex-festy. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but I think the choice is indicative of the author's angle, which in my initial opinion is more about fanfic than Reylo, though I can't say that definitively because the article seems a little all over the place. The fanfic writers are better advocates for the viewpoint than screaming tumblr fangirls would be, but for all their "college classroom discourse" language, neither are particularly effective advocates for the myriad reasons of interest in the Reylo concept. In fact, I think basically every person on this board would be a more effective advocate. And the fact that the author found Ohtze's tumblr tells us that the author knows that. He/she just didn't want to take it that far.

And that's the heart of my problem my the article. It's as if the author was assigned this topic because there is a real cultural thing happening, but probably went into it with the mindset that there is not much "there there" beyond fantasies. Once he/she did some cursory research, the author did encounter a lot if intelligent discussion that could not be ignored, hence the interview with the ff authors and the link to Ohtze. But in the end, IMO, the author played it safe, running home to the sexual fantasies, the bad boy thing, "problematic" gender tropes and the worst, the cheap shot implication of racism. The author ignores stories that focus on the philosophical underpinings of Reylo that explore light and dark, the ying and yang and the nature of the force for a story that starts as described as force bond phone sex. Also ignored is the chemistry between Driver and Ridley as stated above. Any and all storyline conventions like fairy tales are ignored in favor of bad boy/ villain, when reading Ohtze would show that an argument could be made for much more.

Okay, so fine, the author just doesn't care that much to go that deep, they just want to take a cursory look at ff. Nothing wrong with that. I can be disappointed that it is nit all that I hoped for, but I can be happy that the Atlantic acknockledges that I might have a point.

But where the article becomes spineless is in the subtle accusation of racism. You know why Finn/Rey are not popular? Not because America and Canada are oh so racist, but because Finn is boring. And why is he boring? Why does he not get a fraction of the characterization of Kylo Ren? Why doesn't the first black SW lead not even get a Peeta-like treatment when the character's background calls for it? Why is he so safe and perfect and boring like that goofy "just a friend" guy from next door? The answers to those questions are not in control of the Reylos. Those decisions were made by the writers and the studio, not Reylos. Was it just a case that just fell too in love with Kylo Ren? Was Finn's character always slated for cutesy and boring no matter who played him or would he have been edgier had Logan Lerman played him? Do the studios underestimate the tolerance of the audience or do they have data mining that tells them Finn must be perfect and cutesy or people on all kinds of sides will lose their minds? I don't know those answers. Those are the kinds of real and raw questions an Atlantic writer could explore, especially in light of the Oscar controversy. It's the author's job to do that deep work, but instead he/ she is lazy and hints some Reylos might be racists when they are actually shipping the more interesting and full-bodied character for Rey. The author already knows this, because there is mention of Kylo and Rey being the most exciting characters, but besides this line there is very little acknockledgement. It's just easier for the author to not open these doors ... because first, that would take a lot of work, and secondly, who has more power, studio execs who have power regarding later interviews or a bunch of women shipping Reylo.

Sorry to be cynical, but at the very least the author seemed pretty lazy in the execution of this, and that is disappointingin that "not all it could be" sense.
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Re: Reylo spotlighted by The Atlantic

Post by Saracene on Thu 31 Mar - 0:16

I thought the article was quite balanced and gave a nice general overview of the Reylo fandom, the female engagement with Star Wars and the various reactions the pairing provokes. And I noticed that it did finish with Darth Vader parallels and asked, well is it impossible to imagine that Kylo would turn for love? I think a reverse Anakin would be a more apt comparison since romantic love played a huge part in his life, but still, the article doesn't end on a dismissive or skeptical note, quite the opposite.
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Re: Reylo spotlighted by The Atlantic

Post by Ohtze on Thu 31 Mar - 3:05

@Force22 wrote:The only thing that offends me is the idea that seeing Rey and Kylo as a romantic pairing is because of fans' overactive imagination. It's not hostile or an attack, but it's a clear misunderstanding of what drives people to the pair. Notice also that the people interviewed are cherry picked. They could have chosen to interview Ohtze (I know I'm misspelling) but they didn't.

Yeah, no one tried to contact me - not even a peep. And I'm pretty easy to contact, even with the askbox closed. You spelt my name correctly, by the way.

@vaderito wrote:You make a great point but I think that really unfortunate headline undermines the article somewhat. It trivializes the point of the exercise and doesn't fit the intelligent and balanced few presented it the text. I understand they chose the title to attract clicks rather than to offend but it's also understandable that some fans are not amused. 50 Shades is exactly the type of romance that Reylo doesn't want to be associated with but is often accused of being.

The headline was cringe-worthy.

@SanghaRen wrote:Joining the debate! I liked the article. I think it's a good general article that describes the whole phenomenon.

I also think (sorry in advance for this) that we should consider that Reylo might not be end game. Rey could still end with Finn (although I see it less and less as a possibility) or with no one. And Reylo would stay there as subtext, as something that could have happened.

I mention this in Death and the Maiden actually, and that's still my own personal viewpoint - that Reylo won't happen in the way people want it to/will be onesided. Generally, I agree with @nonesuch in this - there's a real danger in being utterly convinced that Reylo is the one way, and the only way, and I think we need to avoid that. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't like to see it HAPPEN (I do), but you set yourself up for disappointment when you put all your eggs in one basket.

Also, I feel I should mention (although I think I already have) - I'm on a first name basis/good friends with Trebia and the authors of Interstellar Transmissions. So while I appreciate people defending me I would be grateful if the comments on their comments steered away from personal attacks. You also have to remember (as was correctly pointed out in this thread) that things were kind of cherry-picked. A small sample of the convo I just had with the authors of IT and Trebia:

Little-Scribbler: Well I'll say this - Ricca and I on the phone did AWESOME. VERY little of what we said is in here.

Little-Scribbler: He put my cocaine snorting line in there because it's kinda sexy and kinda edgy.

Trebia: the same goes for me but I don't know how I sounded since i don't have Ricca to bounce off of

Trebia: but Spencer spent literally almost an hour speaking with me

Trebia: Very little about what I said about being supportive as a writer to other Reylo shippers who create in the context of the fiction was said.
Literally nothing about that.

Little-Scribbler:  Same. Very little about the innate feminism of the current fanfiction community.

Little Scribbler: Spence was super respectful, though. To me at least. He was polite and courteous and definitely had an agenda.

Trebia: He was to me as well - he was very interested in the how and the why as to what Star Wars was to women especially.
I wish he took the article in THAT direction more.

Little Scribbler: We talked about the continuation of the fandom in the 80s and early 90s! We talked about the EU novels!

Trebia: THRAWN TRILOGY

Ricca Racoon: I thought it was gonna be about that with the hook

Little Scribbler: Yeah!! He asked about gatekeeper nerds! He seemed pretty interested in our different experiences with the orig trig, mine and Ricca's

Little Scribbler: How I was into it from a wee child and how she just got into it recently and how that HASNT BEEN AN ISSUE AT ALL
Because whatever we all like Star Wars

Trebia: and women being more drawn to writing fanfiction and how many men I've encountered in the process that read or write. so far: zero confessed people identifying as male. all women

Little Scribbler: I talked about the innate feminism of creating art primarily for women without worry or concern for men!!!!!

Trebia: so like Ricca said

Little-Scribbler: It's so important to me!!

Trebia: WOMEN CREATING FOR WOMEN

So as you can see, most of what was actually discussed did not make it into the article. I know it rankles, but it's not their fault if The Atlantic chose to portray them a certain way.


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Re: Reylo spotlighted by The Atlantic

Post by AnneNeville on Thu 31 Mar - 3:22

I am curious about who "pitched" the story to Atlantic. Was it the author? Or a culture editor? Or do PR arms for production companies reach out to publications?
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Re: Reylo spotlighted by The Atlantic

Post by Ohtze on Thu 31 Mar - 3:32

@AnneNeville wrote:I am curious about who "pitched" the story to Atlantic. Was it the author? Or a culture editor? Or do PR arms for production companies reach out to publications?

I am too. :/


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