Ben's Childhood

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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by CienaRee on Sat 25 Jun - 8:23

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@snufkin wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@snufkin

Yeah, I definitely don't want him alone. He does deserve a huge break. His life has largely been a nightmare. That's why all of my exile headcanons always involve him actually findiing a good group of loyal friends (his own people, you know what I mean), having great success in doing something that doesn't involve the force but brings goodness or beauty into the world even if he is still kind of jack*** at times Smile , because I think the force has been a terrible burden to him *and* I will duck now ... even having other romantic relationships. (I know, I know, but I've always admitted I'm Kylo first, lol). But honestly, to me he is such an interesting character that he really could have all kinds of fascinating paths with all different kinds of romantic partners and can take journeys he could never take with Rey. My loyalty to this forum always makes me figure out a way to make his wives pass away tragically so I can eventually have him get back together with Rey. :-) But frequently he returns with a kid and fiercely loyal group and a whole new outlook on life that is challenging in a good way to the Jedi view. I think I like these kinds of scenarios because when he comes back he's somebody to be reckoned with and he's got people who love him as is and it makes he and Rey much more emotionally equal ... which I guess I personally like better. I love how he is so impressed with her ... but I think I would like to eventually see her impressed with him as well. And unless they have a kick-a** twist backstory that changes her whole view of him, (which I think they might and hope they do), he will always be thanking the force that she accepts him ... the success in exile scenarios do away with a lot of that.
@SoloSideCousin

My guess is that he hoped giving into Snoke and joining the KoR would give him that loyal Band of Brothers, go out into the world on his own to prove himself. Which it may have to a certain extent, but ultimately it's trapped him as Snoke's pawn. He'll have a backstory to help change her view of him, but I'd bet that his loyal friend and great success (and yes, romantic relationship) arc on the path to redemption will be with Rey. [b][/b]
@snufkin

@slade
"This is good too. I could see him with someone besides Rey. I just want him with Rey now because that's where it looks like it's going, and they seem a potential good match. Heck,I just want the guy happy and safe."

@snufkin: I think it will be too. :-) This isn't a 7 year series where they can introduce his perfect partner in Season 3. Laughing I definitely like Reylo, or I wouldn't be here. :-) But I agree with @slade, I just want him to be happy and safe ... and not so pathetic[i] at some point in the future, and no question Rey is the best chance for that. There are also amazing things built-into the story like the Adam and Eve angle and the Hades and Persephone angle and the Grey/Rogue/New Jedi angle that make it possible for them to be absolutely perfect ... but for me for that to happen her character needs to be stronger and more complex. I want her to be the equal in development and complexity to Kylo Ren, and I don't think she is ... [i]yet.

Don't get me wrong. I like Rey, but she is not written on the level that Kylo Ren is ... and I think my exile headcanons try to solve that problem. I actually *love* Rey when she is with Kylo and when they let her "Jakku" come out. She looks like his "grey" match then. She seems like a girl who has had to "do what she had to do" sometimes even if those things were really ugly. I think one of the books maybe even hinted that she had to kill somebody before. (Though I am not positive about that, since I didn't read the book myself). I think the original Kira was written as a much edgier girl. In fact, I think Rey was still edgy until JJ Abrams did rewrites so she didn't have so much tension with Finn. But for me, by doing that, they took a lot of complexity away. That "darkness", if you will, comes back when Kylo is around, but other times she is such a goofball cinnamon roll when her background on Jakku would have never allowed for that. The movie treats Kylo's history realistically, but not hers. If they had treated her background realistically, there wouldn't be so much of this issue that she has to be "protected from Kylo Ren" or that she never had to make terrible choices like Kylo Ren. Even if they just made her a little bit more like Han or even tough-as-nails Leia consistently, I would have no concerns. She could still be the "light in the darkness" to Kylo Ren, but still "get" Kylo Ren.

It all depends on where they go in Episode VIII. If they delve into her demons and/or have his demons remind her of her own, I will be very pleased. Also, and I know you don't like this route @snufkin, but if they make her touch/experience the dark side in a serious way, I will be very pleased as well ... because if she does something seriously bad, and feels the addictive appeal of the darkness, and maybe even tries to kill him while in that state until he does something to snap her back to sense, then I will also be very pleased because then she will really understand him[i].

I think a lot of fans are strongly Beauty and Beast people or strongly Grey Jedi. Some don't care and will just want them together. And I will be happy if he finds happiness and love. But if I had my way, it would go in the Grey Jedi direction. I can see the B&B appeal, but I tend to prefer things complicated and also B&B doesn't denote a long-term relationship of equality ... and to me equal relationships are always infinitely more interesting. I want Rey imperfect and psychologically messed up and I want her fall and overcome it and be amazing in spite of it all, just as he is a mess and I hope the same for him. That's probably why I imagine him with characters in the Outer Rim who might be played by Rooney Mara in [i]Girl with the Dragon Tattoo
mode or Jennifer Lawrence in Silver Linings Playbook, Winter's Bone or Hunger Games mode or Emma Stone in Birdman mode and *not* Emma Stone in Amazing Spider Man mode. I'm looking for that edge we saw in the interrogation and the Snow Fight to be explored fully. That girl is a great fit ... but if they revert her back to cinnamon roll too much, it all becomes him trying to gain her favor ... when if they were both more "Grey" and "real" they could join together not just as an awesome intense couple, but also could change the paradigm of the force forever, where there is not dark and light, only the force.

I could see Disney/LF doing a lot of things. I could see them looking at the SW universe in a realpolitik way to such an extent that Kylo does not really getting punished at all by the Galaxy because there will be too many planets who will still hate the Republic and Resistance and he might be the only non-evil person left standing from that structure to negotiate a peace with Leia and/or Poe. I could see him getting a pardon because he gave Leia the keys to the FO. I could see them coming up with all kinds of reasons why the "Academy" thing and the LST thing were more complicated that first appear and that he had no choice but to kill Han and Leia and Luke will accept him eventually and he will become first and best dark side drug "Yeah I've been there" counselor in the Galaxy, and that will be his ultimate service as he atones for his bad deeds. I can see Disney allowing a relationship with Rey, particularly in the Beauty and the Beast mindset and to a lesser extent a grey Jedi mindset.

But what I am not sure we will see from them is to allow Rey to be significantly imperfect in her characterization. I think there are just too many voices from various some schools of feminist thought that just will not tolerate that and Disney will not want to buck them. I actually think that view is extremely anti-feminist, but nobody is asking me. As a result, I am afraid that Rey will not get her own Kylo Ren treatment, and as such we will not get that Henry II/Eleanor of Aquitaine, Mr. Darcy/Lizzie Bennett, Scarlett/Rhett, Mr. Rochester/Jane Eyre or even the Bradley Cooper/Jennifer Lawrence pairing we got in Silver Linings Playbook or Mulder/Scully or even Adam/Hannah or Adam/Jessa (whatever your fancy) kind of pairing, and that would be a shame. Kylo Ren is an incredible, already iconic characterization. Rey needs that complexity too. I really hope they are not afraid to do it.


@SoloSideCousin

No,I agree.That's why I always maintain the believe that for Kylo and Rey to be equals and for her to be able to understand him she'll have to be tempted or fall to the DS and let's me just say this has nothing to do with thinking a darker character is edgier.It would give Rey more complexity and understanding about the choices Kylo did.I mean we've discussed many times how unrealistic it is for Rey to behave like she hasn't been abandoned and nearly made a slave by having to work as a scavenger.Anyone would feel a deep seated anger as optimistic as he/she would Ty to be.I really wished they have kept the edgier/darker Rey /Kira the original draft had her because it really paints her into a corner.You can't really do much with her or have her character progress because everything a hero goes through she experienced in TFA so where does that leave her expect actually going a downward spiral while the opposite happens with Kylo.
And if you ask me the feminists have no idea what the ruck they want.They complain when writers try to make female character like any other human being by giving them fears,weaknesses,etc yet they also complain when they make them one dimensional characters so Disney doesn't win them ad man thing(just to note that I' talking about radical feminists here)not when it's about business and a character they want to be part of the SW universe going forward not only in movies but books,comics and maybe spin offs as well.You just can't afford to limit your characters when we're talking about a huge business like SW especially Rey who's the first female heroine.

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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 25 Jun - 8:23

@Slade wrote:I think he should stay as Kylo or choose a completely new name.  Ben Solo is gone, IMO.
@Slade

I tend to lean that way myself.  Yes, his father called him "Ben" and wants that son back and says he is alive ... and he is  ... But so is Kylo Ren.  I tend to think of Kylo Ren as a protector persona, a kind of disassociative armor that Ben's psyche created ... but the thing is, for whatever reasons Ben created Kylo ... he created him.  Kylo is a part of him.  And I actually think that is okay.  

I sometimes think that the division in Ben Solo has been artificially created with the help of *both* of his force masters.  Ben was supposed to have been born half light and half dark.  So the best thing for him would be to find balance and to integrate both sides of himself because the darkness could not be inherently evil if a child is born with it.  But Luke, being old school Jedi, would have no part of the dark, so Ben Solo, while away Jedi Nomad camp, probably suppressed his darkness so completely that it became a pathology.  And when I say pathology, I don't think if Ben was allowed to be himself that his dark side would have never become so twisted as to become murderous and violent.  He just would have been an intense complex guy with good and bad traits, maybe like a House MD of the force, lol.  But because he had to suppress part of himself for so long, he was not in a good place whenever he found out that the architect of that suppression, Luke, was kind of a big liar. So then whatever happened happened with Luke's acolytes and that suppressed side, which had probably be radicalized like he** during its suppression roared to the surface and took over in a big way.  And then of course, Snoke, though he says he appreciates the light and dark, seems to really only want a totally compassionless Kylo Ren around, so now Ben is the more repressed one.  But then Kylo is struck by the awakening just as much as Rey is and Ben starts really pushing his way to the surface.  (I don't believe that Ben probably ever completely left.  I just think he was buried deeper before the events of TFA, but was still a factor because Kylo seems to have an ongoing "compassion" problem according to Snoke).  

So both sides were always there ... and there might have been a chance for that guy to grow up integrated, but with Snoke in his ear and with his force powers and with Luke saying the darkness is bad, IMO he got knocked out of whack pretty early and has never recovered.

Ben Solo would work if he could return to his pre-interfered-with state where his two sides coexisted, but the infiltration happened so early that he cannot return to that innocence again.  So in this sense, I do think there should be some recognition of his integrated status in his name.  Ren Skywalker-Solo, Ben Skywalker and on and on ... something that speaks to both sides.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sat 25 Jun - 14:34

@Saracene wrote:Personally I do feel that, while killing Han hasn't closed the door on Kylo's redemption, it did cut off his chances of coming back to his old life and world. By that I don't necessarily mean the moral issues of patricide and the practical matters of how Kylo would be viewed by the society because of his crimes etc. It's more about Kylo being offered a chance to come back, and him rejecting it. I don't think I can even explain it adequately, it's just sort of a gut feeling that, story-wise, this rejection is meant to have huge repercussions for his life regardless of whether he ultimately redeems himself or not.

I also have no problem with the idea that an exile scenario is at least partly about punishment, or self-punishment. Kylo's own suffering IMO doesn't cancel out the death and suffering he's caused to others. It's probably also to do with the fact that I have no problem with the idea of punishment in general.
@Saracene
It's not that I have a problem with "punishment" per se, I just wonder if it'll make sense or feel satisfying at the end of IX, after Kylo has already gone through what he has to go through in order to change dramatically as a person (and prove it to others). How can they create a believable redemption arc, but still have it be satisfying for his own mother, uncle and countless other people to force him into exile against his will as a punishment for something that no longer feels as poignant as it did two movies ago? It can't be like a toddler breaking something, then being punished for it a week later after a whole slew of great behaviour. I know that's a weird comparison, but I just mean that it can't feel belated. That's why (for me) it has to be a choice, or as you said, a rejection to return to his "old life". There will be no "old life" again for any of the characters because their "old lives" caused this whole mess to begin with. They have to embrace their futures, every last one of them.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 25 Jun - 14:57

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Slade wrote:I think he should stay as Kylo or choose a completely new name.  Ben Solo is gone, IMO.
@Slade

I tend to lean that way myself.  Yes, his father called him "Ben" and wants that son back and says he is alive ... and he is  ... But so is Kylo Ren.  I tend to think of Kylo Ren as a protector persona, a kind of disassociative armor that Ben's psyche created ... but the thing is, for whatever reasons Ben created Kylo ... he created him.  Kylo is a part of him.  And I actually think that is okay.  

I sometimes think that the division in Ben Solo has been artificially created with the help of *both* of his force masters.  Ben was supposed to have been born half light and half dark.  So the best thing for him would be to find balance and to integrate both sides of himself because the darkness could not be inherently evil if a child is born with it.  But Luke, being old school Jedi, would have no part of the dark, so Ben Solo, while away Jedi Nomad camp, probably suppressed his darkness so completely that it became a pathology.  And when I say pathology, I don't think if Ben was allowed to be himself that his dark side would have never become so twisted as to become murderous and violent.  He just would have been an intense complex guy with good and bad traits, maybe like a House MD of the force, lol.  But because he had to suppress part of himself for so long, he was not in a good place whenever he found out that the architect of that suppression, Luke, was kind of a big liar. So then whatever happened happened with Luke's acolytes and that suppressed side, which had probably be radicalized like he** during its suppression roared to the surface and took over in a big way.  And then of course, Snoke, though he says he appreciates the light and dark, seems to really only want a totally compassionless Kylo Ren around, so now Ben is the more repressed one.  But then Kylo is struck by the awakening just as much as Rey is and Ben starts really pushing his way to the surface.  (I don't believe that Ben probably ever completely left.  I just think he was buried deeper before the events of TFA, but was still a factor because Kylo seems to have an ongoing "compassion" problem according to Snoke).  

So both sides were always there ... and there might have been a chance for that guy to grow up integrated, but with Snoke in his ear and with his force powers and with Luke saying the darkness is bad, IMO he got knocked out of whack pretty early and has never recovered.

Ben Solo would work if he could return to his pre-interfered-with state where his two sides coexisted, but the infiltration happened so early that he cannot return to that innocence again.  So in this sense, I do think there should be some recognition of his integrated status in his name.  Ren Skywalker-Solo, Ben Skywalker and on and on ... something that speaks to both sides.
@SoloSideCousin

I understand that way of thinking, but I kind of doubt the films are going to be so complex about it. I think the most simple interpretation is that Ben Solo* is supposed to represent the real him (not just the "light" him, not just the more innocent pre-fall him, but the "real" him and everything it entails) and when he comes back, it'll be as Ben. And a large part of his redemption will have to be about accepting what the name Solo represents: his "weak and foolish" father. It would be pretty odd if he came back, adopted the name Skywalker and rejected his father's legacy for good.

But I could be wrong, of course.

*) Of course, we don't know if his name really is Solo or if it's Organa-Solo or something.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by ZioRen on Sat 25 Jun - 15:34

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
I understand that way of thinking, but I kind of doubt the films are going to be so complex about it. I think the most simple interpretation is that Ben Solo* is supposed to represent the real him (not just the "light" him, not just the more innocent pre-fall him, but the "real" him and everything it entails) and when he comes back, it'll be as Ben. And a large part of his redemption will have to be about accepting what the name Solo represents: his "weak and foolish" father. It would be pretty odd if he came back, adopted the name Skywalker and rejected his father's legacy for good.

But I could be wrong, of course.

*) Of course, we don't know if his name really is Solo or if it's Organa-Solo or something.
@Darth Dingbat

This is how I think it'll likely go too. I'm not sure they'll think so hard about the name and will probably just go in the direction that "Ben" is the real him that he's been rejecting and that he'll finally embrace his true self when he's redeemed.

Personally I'd just have him stick with Kylo, since it seems like he may have chosen that name for himself. Drop "Ren" since the Knights of Ren seem like they're Snoke's little army.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Macha Ren on Sat 25 Jun - 15:43

I think it would be very empowering for him to reclaim his true birth name. He has not been allowed to live as Ben (Organa) Solo and has been taught that Ben is weak. He needs to discover confidence in himself if he's going to overcome the dark side. He needs to shrug the identity Snoke has crafted for him and embrace and empower himself.

Neither Han not Leia carried the Skywalker name, so there is absolutely no reason for him to adopt that name. He is a Skywalker, but the Solo legacy was willing and did die for him and the Organa is still (hopefully) fighting for him.

He is Ben Organa Solo. That is who he should become again.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by snufkin on Sat 25 Jun - 17:02

Homework assignment for @solosidecousin, watch Looper and The Brothers Bloom. I'm pretty confident that Rian Johnson will do justice to all of the darker aspects of Rey's life on Jakku based on the female characters he's wrote for those movies.















Last edited by snufkin on Sat 25 Jun - 23:08; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Slade on Sat 25 Jun - 22:37

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Slade wrote:I think he should stay as Kylo or choose a completely new name.  Ben Solo is gone, IMO.
@Slade

I tend to lean that way myself.  Yes, his father called him "Ben" and wants that son back and says he is alive ... and he is  ... But so is Kylo Ren.  I tend to think of Kylo Ren as a protector persona, a kind of disassociative armor that Ben's psyche created ... but the thing is, for whatever reasons Ben created Kylo ... he created him.  Kylo is a part of him.  And I actually think that is okay.  

I sometimes think that the division in Ben Solo has been artificially created with the help of *both* of his force masters.  Ben was supposed to have been born half light and half dark.  So the best thing for him would be to find balance and to integrate both sides of himself because the darkness could not be inherently evil if a child is born with it.  But Luke, being old school Jedi, would have no part of the dark, so Ben Solo, while away Jedi Nomad camp, probably suppressed his darkness so completely that it became a pathology.  And when I say pathology, I don't think if Ben was allowed to be himself that his dark side would have never become so twisted as to become murderous and violent.  He just would have been an intense complex guy with good and bad traits, maybe like a House MD of the force, lol.  But because he had to suppress part of himself for so long, he was not in a good place whenever he found out that the architect of that suppression, Luke, was kind of a big liar. So then whatever happened happened with Luke's acolytes and that suppressed side, which had probably be radicalized like he** during its suppression roared to the surface and took over in a big way.  And then of course, Snoke, though he says he appreciates the light and dark, seems to really only want a totally compassionless Kylo Ren around, so now Ben is the more repressed one.  But then Kylo is struck by the awakening just as much as Rey is and Ben starts really pushing his way to the surface.  (I don't believe that Ben probably ever completely left.  I just think he was buried deeper before the events of TFA, but was still a factor because Kylo seems to have an ongoing "compassion" problem according to Snoke).  

So both sides were always there ... and there might have been a chance for that guy to grow up integrated, but with Snoke in his ear and with his force powers and with Luke saying the darkness is bad, IMO he got knocked out of whack pretty early and has never recovered.

Ben Solo would work if he could return to his pre-interfered-with state where his two sides coexisted, but the infiltration happened so early that he cannot return to that innocence again.  So in this sense, I do think there should be some recognition of his integrated status in his name.  Ren Skywalker-Solo, Ben Skywalker and on and on ... something that speaks to both sides.
@SoloSideCousin

Bolded part:  Yes, Kylo may be like a quasi-separate alter ego state (not full formed dissociative identity disorder). He may have arisen as a Guardian persona.  I can absolutely see that happening, as these Guardian types tend to be created in response to trauma.  Anyone know more about ego state psychology and want to chime in?
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by guardienne on Sun 26 Jun - 11:56

i want to argue both, that kylo is a persona (his shadow) and that kylo is his very real capacity for the dark side.

in the former case, ben would return, having shed kylo.

in the latter i'm not sure whether it wouldn't be more pertinent, as a metaphor, to have a person emerge who is neither ben nor kylo but someone who integrates the two. and i wonder how that can be done.

either way, i see the personality thing not in terms of psychological disorder but as metaphor.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by guardienne on Mon 4 Jul - 9:59

just found this:

http://firstorderforceuser.tumblr.com/post/146727671593/the-leiapoekylo-relationship-is-still-a-very

it's a good take on the snoke/ben relationship i feel. and it's not blaming anyone.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Slade on Mon 4 Jul - 17:56

I agree with the author until the last paragraph. I don't think kylo looks at snoke with "warmth and reverence" and I don't think that relationship is remotely healthy.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by snufkin on Mon 4 Jul - 21:31

@Slade wrote:I agree with the author until the last paragraph. I don't think kylo looks at snoke with "warmth and reverence" and I don't think that relationship is remotely healthy.
@Slade

Yeah they tend to go a little overboard with playing Devil's Advocate on the DS in that respect. Snoke's using him as a proxy against his mother and the post Imperial political order. Nothing healthy about manipulating somebody young and impressionable so that the blood is on his hands, including telling him that he has to commit an act of murder that will brand him as a social pariah.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by guardienne on Tue 5 Jul - 15:43

i think on the one hand snoke strikes me as a predator and i he makes me fear for kylo and on the other hand, he doesn't really do much apart from asking him to kill his father (ha!) ...

one way to understand it is that it's a dark side sacrament of sorts, and it's necessary to commit to the dark side and otherwise none of snoke's stuff is going to work. or snoke only has nefarious purposes and just lieks to toy with him. and maybe snoke doesn't understand that kylo is unable to commit to him fully.

either way it's doing my head in a little.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Slade on Tue 5 Jul - 17:27

@guardienne wrote:i think on the one hand snoke strikes me as a predator and i he makes me fear for kylo and on the other hand, he doesn't really do much apart from asking him to kill his father (ha!) ...

one way to understand it is that it's a dark side sacrament of sorts, and it's necessary to commit to the dark side and otherwise none of snoke's stuff is going to work. or snoke only has nefarious purposes and just lieks to toy with him. and maybe snoke doesn't understand that kylo is unable to commit to him fully.

either way it's doing my head in a little.
@guardienne

It is *how* snoke does stuff that disturbs me in TFA. How he projects himself as 30 feet tall, his voice tone, his word choices, his barely controlled anger and malice (the way he roars "General!", the creepy way he snarls "bring her to me!", the way his voice drips contempt when he says "we shall see. We shall see!"), it is all so creepy and just screams "abuser!"

(Shudders) Ick, *that's* the voice Kylo has had in his head all his life. OMG.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by guardienne on Tue 5 Jul - 17:31

@slade i agree with all of that.

so how was snoke different before ben committed to him?
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Slade on Tue 5 Jul - 17:34

@guardienne wrote:@slade i agree with all of that.

so how was snoke different before ben committed to him?
@guardienne

I doubt snoke was different then.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by guardienne on Tue 5 Jul - 17:35

hm... so he was always creepy and manipulative but it didn't bother anyone?

leia gives me the impression she knew him. so his bond with ben was undetected? i think it doesn't quite compute.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Slade on Tue 5 Jul - 17:53

@guardienne wrote:hm... so he was always creepy and manipulative but it didn't bother anyone?

leia gives me the impression she knew him. so his bond with ben was undetected? i think it doesn't quite compute.
@guardienne

I doubt snoke spoke to Leia that way, and if he was inside Ben's head from childhood, how could anyone know? Ben probably didn't even understand what was happening. Han didn't detect anything. At some point Leia clued in, but we don't know how.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Slade on Tue 5 Jul - 17:55

Snoke's way of speaking makes him seem very volatile. His emotions change quickly and dramatically, and he seems like someone Hux and Kylo have to walk on eggshells around. Typical psychological abuser.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by ZioRen on Tue 5 Jul - 18:34

@Slade wrote:
@guardienne wrote:i think on the one hand snoke strikes me as a predator and i he makes me fear for kylo and on the other hand, he doesn't really do much apart from asking him to kill his father (ha!) ...

one way to understand it is that it's a dark side sacrament of sorts, and it's necessary to commit to the dark side and otherwise none of snoke's stuff is going to work. or snoke only has nefarious purposes and just lieks to toy with him. and maybe snoke doesn't understand that kylo is unable to commit to him fully.

either way it's doing my head in a little.
@guardienne

It is *how* snoke does stuff that disturbs me in TFA. How he projects himself as 30 feet tall, his voice tone, his word choices, his barely controlled anger and malice (the way he roars "General!", the creepy way he snarls "bring her to me!", the way his voice drips contempt when he says "we shall see. We shall see!"), it is all so creepy and just screams "abuser!"

(Shudders) Ick, *that's* the voice Kylo has had in his head all his life. OMG.
@Slade

Doesn't something, a novelization maybe, mention Snoke with a creepy and foreboding smile on his face right after Kylo leaves from a meeting with him? I certainly don't get the impression that he cares one bit about Kylo or that this is a good master-student relationship. He's obviously using Kylo to some end, and I think he's keeping Kylo scattered and conflicted on purpose instead of making him "stronger".
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by guardienne on Tue 5 Jul - 18:44

i think the problem i have is that if leia vaguely knew him and allowed him to be near ben, he might not have been as creepy then, or have given off a different scent anyway.

how does she know about him? and how does she know he was whispering to him the whole time? did someone tell her? did ben tell her?

i agree he is creepy in TFA, i do, it's just that if ben turned to him as he was older, he might not have always looked and acted so creepily, because why would you go with someone who is so manipulative?
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by ZioRen on Tue 5 Jul - 18:52

@guardienne wrote:i think the problem i have is that if leia vaguely knew him and allowed him to be near ben, he might not have been as creepy then, or have given off a different scent anyway.

how does she know about him? and how does she know he was whispering to him the whole time? did someone tell her? did ben tell her?

i agree he is creepy in TFA, i do, it's just that if ben turned to him as he was older, he might not have always looked and acted so creepily, because why would you go with someone who is so manipulative?
@guardienne

If he really has been around and manipulating Ben since he was a kid, then it probably built to the point where Kylo doesn't think much of his creepiness, or other factors are big enough that he doesn't heed it. Conditioning is a hell of a thing and even the smartest people can be manipulated and not realize it.

I guess the "it's Star Wars" thing factors in too. Palpatine managed to stay under the radar well enough even when it seemed like he should have been obvious to the Jedi. Snoke is apparently even older and who knows how powerful he actually is.

I wonder if Leia possibly sensed that someone was whispering to Ben, or at least that something dark was hanging around, but didn't know who/what until it was too late. Or heck, if Ben was young enough maybe he did tell her. She might have also thought sending Ben to Luke ended it, which is why she's not concerned in Bloodline. Ben may have gotten good at hiding it at that point on top of everything else, so she wasn't worried about it.

This is all assuming they're still going to emphasize that Snoke had a big affect on Ben's childhood. Unfortunately I'm getting less convinced of that.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by guardienne on Tue 5 Jul - 19:01

@zioren

i'm currently trying to compute how he was manipulated etc from when he was little, and then was sent off to luke and then carried on doing things with luke still under snoke's influence and then somehow, as he was an adult, snoke got hold of him fully for some reason, even though he seemed really ok, and he turned. some external factor must have played a role.

if snoke's influence is downplayed, i guess it would be because it makes it look like he's lacking agency. and i guess for the morality tale to work, he can't claim that 'snoke made him do it'.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by ZioRen on Tue 5 Jul - 19:08

@guardienne wrote:@zioren

i'm currently trying to compute how he was manipulated etc from when he was little, and then was sent off to luke and then carried on doing things with luke still under snoke's influence and then somehow, as he was an adult, snoke got hold of him fully for some reason, even though he seemed really ok, and he turned. some external factor must have played a role.

if snoke's influence is downplayed, i guess it would be because it makes it look like he's lacking agency. and i guess for the morality tale to work, he can't claim that 'snoke made him do it'.
@guardienne

I don't think his turn was a sudden thing or a "he just snapped" thing. It seems like it built, and possibly one moment was his cue to finally go all the way. Heck who knows, he may have been scheming with Snoke long before he left Luke. Luke seems like he's been preoccupied with something for the last while so it wouldn't be shocking if he didn't notice.

As for the agency thing, I don't think they'll play it like everything was Snoke's fault. The age thing is a factor in this too. But I'm attached to Ben Solo having been manipulated to some degree, and I'll be sad if they highly downplay that. It also makes him much more redeemable if that's the case.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by guardienne on Tue 5 Jul - 19:21

@zioren

it's debatable whether one way or another makes him more or less redeemable. in my heart he'll be redeemed probably even if he murdered everyone under the sun.... because of how he's presented to us. maybe not murdering everyone but ... you know. i think murdering LST is a very cold thing to do and it gets mentioned less and less because everyone's occupied with him murdering han, which is fine, but it struck me that that is the murder that is really a murder. no bones about that.

snoke is the puppet master but i think for kylo to have been directed fully and thoroughly, it's going to be difficult to then come out with how he's made any choices at all. i guess it's tricky.

i think he had agency in joining snoke and he knew some of what would happen. but i can imagine that the choice wasn't made with all the facts present. i'm having to compute that somehow he thinks his family are all criminals. i mean, whispering and being manipulative is all fine and dandy, but how do you tell someone that sort of thing and they go, sure.

so either i can take some of his assessment such as 'han was disappointing' or 'my father was weak and foolish' as some thing he has experienced and knows, or snoke can tell him pretty much anything.

i really don't know. i'd like him to have known who snoke is and that he would solve his conflict about light and dark, something which has been gnawing on him forever. and something which nobody has been able to help him with. and snoke goes, sure.

and maybe snoke is really disappointed in him because he's just not doing it *right*.

haha. oh well. doesn't make much sense either.
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