Ben's Childhood

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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by ZioRen on Tue 5 Jul 2016 - 12:31

@guardienne wrote:@zioren

it's debatable whether one way or another makes him more or less redeemable. in my heart he'll be redeemed probably even if he murdered everyone under the sun.... because of how he's presented to us. maybe not murdering everyone but ... you know. i think murdering LST is a very cold thing to do and it gets mentioned less and less because everyone's occupied with him murdering han, which is fine, but it struck me that that is the murder that is really a murder. no bones about that.

snoke is the puppet master but i think for kylo to have been directed fully and thoroughly, it's going to be difficult to then come out with how he's made any choices at all. i guess it's tricky.

i think he had agency in joining snoke and he knew some of what would happen. but i can imagine that the choice wasn't made with all the facts present. i'm having to compute that somehow he thinks his family are all criminals. i mean, whispering and being manipulative is all fine and dandy, but how do you tell someone that sort of thing and they go, sure.

so either i can take some of his assessment such as 'han was disappointing' or 'my father was weak and foolish' as some thing he has experienced and knows, or snoke can tell him pretty much anything.

i really don't know. i'd like him to have known who snoke is and that he would solve his conflict about light and dark, something which has been gnawing on him forever. and something which nobody has been able to help him with. and snoke goes, sure.

and maybe snoke is really disappointed in him because he's just not doing it *right*.

haha. oh well. doesn't make much sense either.
@guardienne

When I say "redeemable", I mostly mean in the GA's eyes. Having Ben Solo be a victim of manipulation is an easy explanation. And it's a reason a lot of people have connected with him.

I think what's interesting about this is the question of what exactly made Ben Solo so dark. I mean, Force-sensitive people always face this conflict at some point, but something seriously off-balanced Kylo and something made him believe that dark was better/the answer despite the people he was surrounded with. I also wonder what gave him the impression that he was better off being on the Dark Side, or that he should follow Vader's example or idolize him. Maybe Snoke whispered to him enough that he believed it, but it still seems odd. Ben doesn't seem like he was a complete fool, and are abandonment issues really enough to do that?

Is it really just all about power? Maybe, but it seems shaky because that wasn't super emphasized in TFA. Leia even mentioned in Bloodline that Ben wasn't interested in that sort of thing. Is it about him not wanting to feel things that make him upset anymore and trying to combat extreme feelings of inadequacy? Likely partially, but is that really all?

I think this is why some people speculate that he feels like he's doing something for a good reason, or that he must believe that his family was bad in some way, particularly Luke. It's a little confusing!


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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by guardienne on Tue 5 Jul 2016 - 12:43

@zioren

i don't know if i connected with him because he's been manipulated. there's something about the ultimate outsider about him which has nothing to do with manipulation. i think that's what makes him vulnerable. he seems existentially lonely. he is also pretty brutally straightforward.

that's kind of where i connect more.

like, this is me.

i agree that he's been manipulated but it's secondary to me in that regard. and i can see how it would have been a choice that seemed to promise something of addressing his powers and a way of being close to someone who would have understood him (vader). so i need him to have a vague idea of what he's getting himself into i guess. because he makes *real effort* to be there.

so, @slade and i have been discussing journeying into the underworld (in a metaphorical sense) and how that changes people and i can see some of that, unfortunately, neat as that is, i don't think he's characterised as someone who went entirely willingly. or perhaps snoke's influence only became clear to him after a time?

perhaps it's a kind of hybrid of having been manipulated and also having experienced something that involved his family and disgusted him with them? i really think luke is heavily involved in this.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Birdwoman on Tue 5 Jul 2016 - 13:25

I think his issues with his dad, Uncle, mom and his feelings of abandonment built up slowly causing him to resent his family. Then something big must have happened between Luke and Ben, plus the vader reveal. On top of it, you have Snoke building the riff between his family so he can control and manipulate him. Ben/Kylo willingly went dark but I am just so curious what happened between him and luke? Plus the other acolytes? Did he kill them all or did they turn on Luke also?

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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Slade on Tue 5 Jul 2016 - 15:40

Given Kylo's emotional dysregulation, I think there were numerous causes that led to who he is now.  Kylo is **so strongly** coded as someone who is traumatized, and I don't think parental rejection alone would do it (though I do think that is one causation).  Kylo behaves like an abuse survivor.  So I'm expecting that there was significant abuse, and I'm guessing it was Snoke.  Now they may chicken out of showing this conclusively in ep 8 or 9, but ep 7 already gave us strong clues that kylo survived some significant abuse.  I really think snoke has been in his head from a very young age,  messing with him in a mentally abusive way, forging a "trauma bond" with Kylo (i.e. Stockholm Syndrome), and twisting Kylos's thinking.  

I also think Kylo grew disenchanted with Resistance politics, Senate politics, Jedi training, etc and saw something in the FO that appealed to him (like the order perhaps). 

I think Kylo has never felt unconditional love, has never felt accepted or understood, has never really felt wanted, and I think someone was telling him what a weak POS he was, and he internalized that.  Heck, I don't know if the guy has ever even had a friend.  what loneliness.  Think of how Kylo's voice cracks when he is *pleading* with Vader to show him the power of the dark side.  I think this is a person who puts on a facade, built very high, thick walls around himself, and tries to be the biggest, baddest Mofo on the block in order to make people *leave him alone* and *step back off of him* because so many people have hurt him and tried to mess with him, but then he cries himself to sleep at night.  

I think it may have been straight up anger that led Kylo to the dark side (plus some final catalyst event, unknown as of now).
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by CienaRee on Tue 5 Jul 2016 - 15:54

@Slade wrote:Given Kylo's emotional dysregulation, I think there were numerous causes that led to who he is now.  Kylo is **so strongly** coded as someone who is traumatized, and I don't think parental rejection alone would do it (though I do think that is one causation).  Kylo behaves like an abuse survivor.  So I'm expecting that there was significant abuse, and I'm guessing it was Snoke.  Now they may chicken out of showing this conclusively in ep 8 or 9, but ep 7 already gave us strong clues that kylo survived some significant abuse.  I really think snoke has been in his head from a very young age,  messing with him in a mentally abusive way, forging a "trauma bond" with Kylo (i.e. Stockholm Syndrome), and twisting Kylos's thinking.  

I also think Kylo grew disenchanted with Resistance politics, Senate politics, Jedi training, etc and saw something in the FO that appealed to him (like the order perhaps). 

I think Kylo has never felt unconditional love, has never felt accepted or understood, has never really felt wanted, and I think someone was telling him what a weak POS he was, and he internalized that.  Heck, I don't know if the guy has ever even had a friend.  what loneliness.  Think of how Kylo's voice cracks when he is *pleading* with Vader to show him the power of the dark side.  I think this is a person who puts on a facade, built very high, thick walls around himself, and tries to be the biggest, baddest Mofo on the block in order to make people *leave him alone* and *step back off of him* because so many people have hurt him and tried to mess with him, but then he cries himself to sleep at night.  

I think it may have been straight up anger that led Kylo to the dark side (plus some final catalyst event, unknown as of now).
@Slade

I agree.I honestly don't get why some fans are ignoring Snoke and the huge role he played in destroying the Skywalker family.Even reading the kind of things he might have done to mess with Ben's head give me chills.The guy(or whatever he is)is a complete pyscho and an emtional abuser.If you're wondering  who's the Big Bad of this trilogy Snoke's the answer.
I think Bloodline mentions him having friends when he was a child but I think that probably changed when his Force powers manifested.Not a lot of people can understand having these kind of powers and it might be frightening for them.That might have bene the beggining of Ben's isolation and Snoke taking advantage of that.

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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Slade on Tue 5 Jul 2016 - 19:48

@CienaRee wrote:
@Slade wrote:Given Kylo's emotional dysregulation, I think there were numerous causes that led to who he is now.  Kylo is **so strongly** coded as someone who is traumatized, and I don't think parental rejection alone would do it (though I do think that is one causation).  Kylo behaves like an abuse survivor.  So I'm expecting that there was significant abuse, and I'm guessing it was Snoke.  Now they may chicken out of showing this conclusively in ep 8 or 9, but ep 7 already gave us strong clues that kylo survived some significant abuse.  I really think snoke has been in his head from a very young age,  messing with him in a mentally abusive way, forging a "trauma bond" with Kylo (i.e. Stockholm Syndrome), and twisting Kylos's thinking.  

I also think Kylo grew disenchanted with Resistance politics, Senate politics, Jedi training, etc and saw something in the FO that appealed to him (like the order perhaps). 

I think Kylo has never felt unconditional love, has never felt accepted or understood, has never really felt wanted, and I think someone was telling him what a weak POS he was, and he internalized that.  Heck, I don't know if the guy has ever even had a friend.  what loneliness.  Think of how Kylo's voice cracks when he is *pleading* with Vader to show him the power of the dark side.  I think this is a person who puts on a facade, built very high, thick walls around himself, and tries to be the biggest, baddest Mofo on the block in order to make people *leave him alone* and *step back off of him* because so many people have hurt him and tried to mess with him, but then he cries himself to sleep at night.  

I think it may have been straight up anger that led Kylo to the dark side (plus some final catalyst event, unknown as of now).
@Slade

I agree.I honestly don't get why some fans are ignoring Snoke and the huge role he played in destroying the Skywalker family.Even reading the kind of things he might have done to mess with Ben's head give me chills.The guy(or whatever he is)is a complete pyscho and an emtional abuser.If you're wondering  who's the Big Bad of this trilogy Snoke's the answer.
I think Bloodline mentions him having friends when he was a child but I think that probably changed when his Force powers manifested.Not a lot of people can understand having these kind of powers and it might be frightening for them.That might have bene the beggining of Ben's isolation and Snoke taking advantage of that.
@CienaRee

A lot of people don't seem to want to acknowledge that emotional child abuse is a thing.  Maybe that is why people are overlooking Snoke's influence?  And the fact that Kylo turned to the dark side at age 23 rather than earlier does not mean that Snoke was not in his head from a very young age.  As far as I am concerned, nothing about Kylo's upbringing and teen years was changed by knowing he "turned" at age 23.  I certainly see no evidence that he was healthy and happy and then, Bam!, turned dark at 23.

One interesting theory I read (can't remember where) was that when Snoke got in Ben's head, it hurt, similar to when Kylo pokes into Poe and Rey's minds.  So as a child, Ben would have had frequent headaches with no identifiable cause and that medicine would not cure (because the cause is not physiological).  This in and of itself would have been a disruption (chronically sick child) on the entire family.  And there's a very young, sick, sleep-deprived, scared child who hears this voice telling him heaven knows what ("Kill Leia", "Han hates you", "everyone hates you"???).  This is all head canon, but it is chilling to actually think about what it might mean when TPTB indicate that Snoke was there from the beginning, targeting Ben.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by SoloSideCousin on Tue 5 Jul 2016 - 22:50

@Slade wrote:
@CienaRee wrote:
@Slade wrote:Given Kylo's emotional dysregulation, I think there were numerous causes that led to who he is now.  Kylo is **so strongly** coded as someone who is traumatized, and I don't think parental rejection alone would do it (though I do think that is one causation).  Kylo behaves like an abuse survivor.  So I'm expecting that there was significant abuse, and I'm guessing it was Snoke.  Now they may chicken out of showing this conclusively in ep 8 or 9, but ep 7 already gave us strong clues that kylo survived some significant abuse.  I really think snoke has been in his head from a very young age,  messing with him in a mentally abusive way, forging a "trauma bond" with Kylo (i.e. Stockholm Syndrome), and twisting Kylos's thinking.  

I also think Kylo grew disenchanted with Resistance politics, Senate politics, Jedi training, etc and saw something in the FO that appealed to him (like the order perhaps). 

I think Kylo has never felt unconditional love, has never felt accepted or understood, has never really felt wanted, and I think someone was telling him what a weak POS he was, and he internalized that.  Heck, I don't know if the guy has ever even had a friend.  what loneliness.  Think of how Kylo's voice cracks when he is *pleading* with Vader to show him the power of the dark side.  I think this is a person who puts on a facade, built very high, thick walls around himself, and tries to be the biggest, baddest Mofo on the block in order to make people *leave him alone* and *step back off of him* because so many people have hurt him and tried to mess with him, but then he cries himself to sleep at night.  

I think it may have been straight up anger that led Kylo to the dark side (plus some final catalyst event, unknown as of now).
@Slade

I agree.I honestly don't get why some fans are ignoring Snoke and the huge role he played in destroying the Skywalker family.Even reading the kind of things he might have done to mess with Ben's head give me chills.The guy(or whatever he is)is a complete pyscho and an emtional abuser.If you're wondering  who's the Big Bad of this trilogy Snoke's the answer.
I think Bloodline mentions him having friends when he was a child but I think that probably changed when his Force powers manifested.Not a lot of people can understand having these kind of powers and it might be frightening for them.That might have bene the beggining of Ben's isolation and Snoke taking advantage of that.
@CienaRee

A lot of people don't seem to want to acknowledge that emotional child abuse is a thing.  Maybe that is why people are overlooking Snoke's influence?  And the fact that Kylo turned to the dark side at age 23 rather than earlier does not mean that Snoke was not in his head from a very young age.  As far as I am concerned, nothing about Kylo's upbringing and teen years was changed by knowing he "turned" at age 23.  I certainly see no evidence that he was healthy and happy and then, Bam!, turned dark at 23.

One interesting theory I read (can't remember where) was that when Snoke got in Ben's head, it hurt, similar to when Kylo pokes into Poe and Rey's minds.  So as a child, Ben would have had frequent headaches with no identifiable cause and that medicine would not cure (because the cause is not physiological).  This in and of itself would have been a disruption (chronically sick child) on the entire family.  And there's a very young, sick, sleep-deprived, scared child who hears this voice telling him heaven knows what ("Kill Leia", "Han hates you", "everyone hates you"???).  This is all head canon, but it is chilling to actually think about what it might mean when TPTB indicate that Snoke was there from the beginning, targeting Ben.
@Slade

You know hearing about this "headache pain" theory just made me have a pretty terrible and sad thought. Ben seems to have ridiculous pain tolerance with how he goes around with that bowcaster hole in his belly ... even compared to other forceusers. Luke wasn't in great shape after Vader cut off his hand and that injury wasn't affecting major internal organs. And Anakin was flat out knocked out when Dooku cut off his hand. Kylo walks some distance and has not one but two lightsaber fights, all at a time when he is in a terribly guilty and unstable mental ... something neither Luke nor Anakin are suffering with. Yet, Kylo is the strongest "tank" of all.

So what if Snoke has been causing him pain his whole life? Starting from headaches and only getting presumably worse from there ... And what if ... and this is a serious question ... what if the dark side helped him endure it? I know pains fuels the dark ... but by engaging that dark while in pain, can you also get relief? What if the beating on wounds was not exactly self harm? What if this was some variation of what had gotten him through all his life? What if the dark had been his source of relief in some way before he even knew what is was? What if it was the only thing that got him through pain ... and then more pain Snoke or whoever caused him, the more he relied upon it ... thus getting him in deeper under its influence ... but not because he was power seeking, but because it was the only relief he had? This could explain him seeming normal for a long time, but like any other addiction you eventually fall to a real bad place and get vulnerable and mentally addled and bad choices are made?
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Slade on Tue 5 Jul 2016 - 23:15

@SoloSideCousin

Here's the thing:  one purpose of self-injury is to transform mental/emotional pain into physical pain, which can be dealt with (and the emotional pain cannot).  Another purpose of SI is to get into this headspace of "I am stronger than anyone who tries to hurt me.  I can hurt myself far worse than the abuser, and I can still suck up the damage."  Kylo could be doing either or both.  I'm not sure if I understood your post correctly...

What I'm trying to say is yes, absolutely, SI gives you relief from emotional pain.  Now maybe Kylo only pounded his wound because it caused the pain of the injury to subside somewhat.  However, I don't buy that because of the other elements of Kylo's personality that Adam shows us (in a nutshell, emotional dysregulation and hinted emotional abuse/abandonment).  And those elements are often (not always) things that *can* lay groundwork for SI.  Adam knows this, I think (his character in that Law and Order episode SIs).

HOnestly, and this is head canon, I bet Ben only "seemed" normal to people who were not looking very closely and/or really wanted to believe he *was* ok.  

I hope this made sense.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by SoloSideCousin on Wed 6 Jul 2016 - 0:42

@Slade wrote:@SoloSideCousin

Here's the thing:  one purpose of self-injury is to transform mental/emotional pain into physical pain, which can be dealt with (and the emotional pain cannot).  Another purpose of SI is to get into this headspace of "I am stronger than anyone who tries to hurt me.  I can hurt myself far worse than the abuser, and I can still suck up the damage."  Kylo could be doing either or both.  I'm not sure if I understood your post correctly...

What I'm trying to say is yes, absolutely, SI gives you relief from emotional pain.  Now maybe Kylo only pounded his wound because it caused the pain of the injury to subside somewhat.  However, I don't buy that because of the other elements of Kylo's personality that Adam shows us (in a nutshell, emotional dysregulation and hinted emotional abuse/abandonment).  And those elements are often (not always) things that *can* lay groundwork for SI.  Adam knows this, I think (his character in that Law and Order episode SIs).

HOnestly, and this is head canon, I bet Ben only "seemed" normal to people who were not looking very closely and/or really wanted to believe he *was* ok.  

I hope this made sense.
@Slade

It does make sense. My understanding of SI is that it is a way of "externalizing/focusing/distracting/controlling" emotional pain that the sufferer feels is so all encompassing that it could take them under ... so in a weird way ... this is not the right word ... but the SI mitigates the overall effects of the pain to just one place. I am not well-versed in it, but I am pretty sure that it is not always about masochism ... It's a coping mechanism to help hold yourself together. And I absolutely agree with you about Ben acting like a traumatized/abused person.

I actually was asking a more Star Warsy question ... and people who have done more reading on this that I have might be able to answer it. My question is whether the dark side can actually take away physical pain? Can it act like a opiate and help people to go on when in reality they are really messed up.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Slade on Wed 6 Jul 2016 - 9:48

@SoloSideCousin

I am not well-versed in it, but I am pretty sure that it is not always about masochism ... It's a coping mechanism to help hold yourself together.

I don't think it is ever about masochism if it is SI in the clinical sense (differentiated from S & M bloodplay and knife play).  

Re the dark side, I got it now.  I'm not well versed enough in the SW universe to know the answer.  Taking a stab, though, anger is "dark side," and tapping into anger can help some people power through pain (emotional pain, at least).
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by MeadowofAshes on Wed 6 Jul 2016 - 14:56

I've never read anything that suggests (as I wrote that it crossed my mind I've been reading way too many Pablo answers - ha!) the Dark Side takes away pain. Quite the opposite, pain is used to fuel rage. Clone Wars suggests DS training involves torture. But I will say from a real life perspective, pain does cause the release of endorphins, which gives you a "high" so... There's that.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 9 Jul 2016 - 1:07

Okay...deep breath here.

The first thing I thought on seeing him hurting himself was 'he's a self harmer.'
Because I have personal experience with that. And yes, it's a way - at least for me - of dealing with emotional pain.

But the more I see this film, the more I'm convinced, as others here say, that Kylo has endured a great deal of physical pain, because he's learned to hide it. He hid it from Finn. He hid it from Rey. And that injury must have been horrendously painful.

Something really bad has happened to that kid, both in mind and body. And that, I think, is why so many of us feel for him.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Slade on Sat 9 Jul 2016 - 1:22

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Okay...deep breath here.

The first thing I thought on seeing him hurting himself was 'he's a self harmer.'
Because I have personal experience with that. And yes, it's a way - at least for me - of dealing with emotional pain.

But the more I see this film, the more I'm convinced, as others here say, that Kylo has endured a great deal of physical pain, because he's learned to hide it. He hid it from Finn. He hid it from Rey. And that injury must have been horrendously painful.

Something really bad has happened to that kid, both in mind and body. And that, I think, is why so many of us feel for him.
@motherofpearl1

Yes, all of this.  I nearly fell out of my chair the first time I saw that scene.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 9 Jul 2016 - 13:20

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Okay...deep breath here.

The first thing I thought on seeing him hurting himself was 'he's a self harmer.'
Because I have personal experience with that. And yes, it's a way - at least for me - of dealing with emotional pain.

But the more I see this film, the more I'm convinced, as others here say, that Kylo has endured a great deal of physical pain, because he's learned to hide it. He hid it from Finn. He hid it from Rey. And that injury must have been horrendously painful.

Something really bad has happened to that kid, both in mind and body. And that, I think, is why so many of us feel for him.
@motherofpearl1

YES!!!!!!!!! That's why I can't stand when people are so harsh about the character. Just like JJ says in the documentary, "the kid is broken". Adam plays that to the hilt. I guess it's going to be a shock to some folks when it comes out that Kylo is seriously damaged somehow, but it shouldn't, because if you pay attention to the acting, it's all there in the movie. Adam knows how to play serious psychological distress.

Welcome to the forum! I look forward to hearing more of your thoughts! Very Happy
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 10 Jul 2016 - 14:26

Has there ever been anything to suggest that Snoke was actually in Ben's head his whole life? I know that a lot of headcanons/fanfics go that route, but I can't recall any of the novelizations, etc, saying that.

There was JJ's line about how "the kid had a target on his back," and the line from the novelization about how Snoke had been there from the beginning, but given Bloodline, etc, I'm wondering if we've been reading too much into those lines. Is it possible that Snoke had been watching Ben his whole life, but was not actually in his head, and was simply waiting for the right opportunity? And it's looking more and more like that opportunity was when Ben was off with Luke?

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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by IoJovi on Sun 10 Jul 2016 - 14:29

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:Has there ever been anything to suggest that Snoke was actually in Ben's head his whole life? I know that a lot of headcanons/fanfics go that route, but I can't recall any of the novelizations, etc, saying that.

There was JJ's line about how "the kid had a target on his back," and the line from the novelization about how Snoke had been there from the beginning, but given Bloodline, etc, I'm wondering if we've been reading too much into those lines. Is it possible that Snoke had been watching Ben his whole life, but was not actually in his head, and was simply waiting for the right opportunity? And it's looking more and more like that opportunity was when Ben was off with Luke?
@ISeeAnIsland

The adult novelization expands upon the conversation between Leia and Han. I'm paraphrasing, but Leia states that Snoke was always there watching their son ever since he was an infant.

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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 10 Jul 2016 - 14:36

@IoJovi wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:Has there ever been anything to suggest that Snoke was actually in Ben's head his whole life? I know that a lot of headcanons/fanfics go that route, but I can't recall any of the novelizations, etc, saying that.

There was JJ's line about how "the kid had a target on his back," and the line from the novelization about how Snoke had been there from the beginning, but given Bloodline, etc, I'm wondering if we've been reading too much into those lines. Is it possible that Snoke had been watching Ben his whole life, but was not actually in his head, and was simply waiting for the right opportunity? And it's looking more and more like that opportunity was when Ben was off with Luke?
@ISeeAnIsland

The adult novelization expands upon the conversation between Leia and Han. I'm paraphrasing, but Leia states that Snoke was always there watching their son ever since he was an infant.
@IoJovi

I read that, and that's what I recall, too. I'm just wondering that in light of some of the recent background info, if we weren't reading too much into that statement and others.

I'm starting to wonder if maybe it's more a case of Snoke watching Ben his whole life, but then waited for the right moment (something that happened with Luke) to actually make his move. There's a difference between that and Snoke actually being in his head ("the bogeyman") the whole time.

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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Slade on Sun 10 Jul 2016 - 18:33

He also could have been "grooming" Ben in the more traditional way (ick).  The way Adam plays Kylo, I think something happened to Ben when he was *young* that started the process of breaking him.  I have not read any of the books except the junior novelization, but I think I read that snoke *is* capable of getting into Kylo's mind now.  If he can do it, wouldn't he have done it as soon as possible, i.e. when Ben was a kid?


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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 11 Jul 2016 - 0:29

Whatever happened to Ben I'm sure started when he was young, Adam mentioned that he had the 'burden' of a tremendous power and no one to guide him as his parents were busy with their own agendas. As a result Snoke saw an opportunity to take advantage of someone who desperately needed a father figure. This could have been through telepathically 'getting into his head' or simply using the same kind of psychological manipulation used by abusers and cultists in the real world. Ben was definitely brainwashed, and the attitude of his parents and Luke gives me the impression they think they failed him, in some way.
And in any case if George Lucas could describe Darth Vader as a 'victim' then the same term surely applies to his grandson.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Mana on Mon 11 Jul 2016 - 2:28

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Whatever happened to Ben I'm sure started when he was young, Adam mentioned that he had the 'burden' of a tremendous power and no one to guide him as his parents were busy with their own agendas. As a result Snoke saw an opportunity to take advantage of someone who desperately needed a father figure. This could have been through telepathically 'getting into his head' or simply using the same kind of psychological manipulation used by abusers and cultists in the real world. Ben was definitely brainwashed, and the attitude of his parents and Luke gives me the impression they think they failed him, in some way.
And in any case if George Lucas could describe Darth Vader as a 'victim' then the same term surely applies to his grandson.
@motherofpearl1

Ben is SO unlike Rey or Finn, because of the burden of this great power. Rey was unaware of her power, and Finn was one of thousands of children who underwent brainwashing by the first order collectively, he was never singled out for a specific purpose. But Ben was targeted specifically for his bloodline, his ability, his place in the force and his great potential..I mean, what a catch for Snoke!!!! He was going to do everything in his power to get his hands on him and he was never going to let go. Ben had no chance at all...especially if his parents were unaware of what was going on, which seems like the case with JJ's and Adams comments on the documentary.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 11 Jul 2016 - 3:52

Exactly.
A lot of people argue that Bloodline contradicts much of what we assume to be Ben's childhood problems but Bloodline is after all Leia's story - and if Leia didn't know her son was unhappy, she therefore believed her son was happy. It doesn't mean she didn't love him - we know from the film how much she loved him. I had wonderful parents growing up but I was psychologically bullied from age thirteen at school, and I never told them. In Ben's case whatever he was going through he kept it hidden, partly because of pride, or simply because when he needed to talk to his parents they weren't there. And sadly, it might have been his dad he wanted to talk to - and we know Han wasn't there.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Mana on Mon 11 Jul 2016 - 17:01

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Exactly.
A lot of people argue that Bloodline contradicts much of what we assume to be Ben's childhood problems but Bloodline is after all Leia's story - and if Leia didn't know her son was unhappy, she therefore believed her son was happy. It doesn't mean she didn't love him - we know from the film how much she loved him. I had wonderful parents growing up but I was psychologically bullied from age thirteen at school, and I never told them. In Ben's case whatever he was going through he kept it hidden, partly because of pride, or simply because when he needed to talk to his parents they weren't there. And sadly, it might have been his dad he wanted to talk to - and we know Han wasn't there.
@motherofpearl1

I think some people expect to see black and white, while there are shades of grey. Anyone who's watched the OT and knows about Han and Leia would know they are the kind of people who would never change their ways, not for each other or for a child, but that doesn't mean that they were terrible people or they were abusive to each other or to Ben or that they never loved him. I know Han/Leia fans like to headcanon that they were the perfect couple with a perfect relationship and then Ben came along and ruined it all, which is simply not true. Han and Leia did have problems, they could never stay together for long periods of time, they kept secrets from each other (at least Leia did) and their child was born into a time of strife and conflict, with the weight of a dark legacy hanging over his head to parents and an uncle who were still fighting a seemingly never ending war against dark forces that ultimately targeted the only child that they had between them. What happened was inevitable...
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Slade on Mon 11 Jul 2016 - 17:51

You know, I also don't see either Han or Leia having much patience with a lot of problems Kylo may have had that they were aware of.  I don't mean Snoke.  I mean, if Kylo was having nightmares or anxiety, I see them basically telling him to suck it up, and feeling like "yeah, right, kid, you *could* have *real* problems!"  I don't see them having patience for expressions of emotion from a child, either.

Come to think of it, I don't see Han or Leia providing a lot of physical comfort to a child, either, in terms of hugging, holding, etc.

Another thing, as I'm sure a lot of people know, when the parents are fighting, the kid often feels like it is his fault or feels like he has the ability or responsibility to make things ok. And of course he doesn't.  But I can see Kylo not telling either parent what was going on with him because he didn't want to bother them.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Mana on Mon 11 Jul 2016 - 17:59

@Slade wrote:You know, I also don't see either Han or Leia having much patience with a lot of problems Kylo may have had that they were aware of.  I don't mean Snoke.  I mean, if Kylo was having nightmares or anxiety, I see them basically telling him to suck it up, and feeling like "yeah, right, kid, you *could* have *real* problems!"  I don't see them having patience for expressions of emotion from a child, either.

Come to think of it, I don't see Han or Leia providing a lot of physical comfort to a child, either, in terms of hugging, holding, etc.

Another thing, as I'm sure a lot of people know, when the parents are fighting, the kid often feels like it is his fault or feels like he has the ability or responsibility to make things ok. And of course he doesn't.  But I can see Kylo not telling either parent what was going on with him because he didn't want to bother them.
@Slade

I get the feeling that Ben would have been a kid who would have kept a lot of things to himself rather than confide in his parents. I don't think Snoke even had to really get inside his head either, with everything that was going on and also with Ben probably being naturally predisposed to the dark side (like his grandfather) it would have been all too easy. Han, Leia and Luke were obviously oblivious to what was really going on.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Saracene on Mon 11 Jul 2016 - 18:02

@Slade wrote:You know, I also don't see either Han or Leia having much patience with a lot of problems Kylo may have had that they were aware of.  I don't mean Snoke.  I mean, if Kylo was having nightmares or anxiety, I see them basically telling him to suck it up, and feeling like "yeah, right, kid, you *could* have *real* problems!"  I don't see them having patience for expressions of emotion from a child, either.

Come to think of it, I don't see Han or Leia providing a lot of physical comfort to a child, either, in terms of hugging, holding, etc.
@Slade

Well that kinda would put them into a "terrible parents" box, which I think is going too far.

Neither of them strikes me as some kind of repressed, aloof, cold person who wouldn’t comfort or hold a child. I grew up with the parents who weren’t best at handling emotional stuff, but there was still plenty of affection, holding, etc.
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