Ben's Childhood

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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by IoJovi on Sun 11 Sep - 13:37

It's essentially canon that she did. Bloodline convinced me that Leia could have been there more for Ben, while Life Debt convinced me Han was an absolutely sithy parent.

Life Debt had Han abandoning his very pregnant wife to go find Chewie who was captured. Which, okay it's Chewie. I get it.

However, when they find him, there's three other reasons that keep popping up as to why he can't come home just yet.

I'm sure this was a recurring theme in Ben's childhood.

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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by MeadowofAshes on Sun 11 Sep - 13:55

@panki @motherofpearl1
Remember @svorza's tall young man in a pith helmet that we thought could be a Resistance pilot and "this is where her mind starts to change"? Also, Pablo's statement that Ben "has ability" as a pilot?

I think you're into something @panki. What if Ben was on a mission and was abandoned by the Resistance when he disappeared? And we know the brainwashing that's taking place in "Life Debt".


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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by IoJovi on Sun 11 Sep - 13:57

@MeadowofAshes I won't ever forget that as long as I live... Laughing

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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 11 Sep - 14:14

The more I read the more I'm inclined to agree with this guy
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sezin-koehler/complicating-good-vs-evil_b_9123592.html

I love Han and Leia but they never should have been parents.

Add this to Leia's comment about how forgiving Rey is...
I can see confronting Ben's family and defending him at some point.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by MeadowofAshes on Sun 11 Sep - 14:15

IoJovi wrote:@MeadowofAshes I won't ever forget that as long as I live... Laughing
@IoJovi

LOL. Silly question, of course none of us will! Very Happy

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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Maria Antonietta on Sun 11 Sep - 14:23

Ok, so the force is unbalanced again, while Luke and Han left pregnant Leia alone. then darth daddy reveal happens, maybe Luke, Leia and Ben were targeted by some political faction, Han is somewhere else in the Galaxy, Snoke takes advantage of the situation and grabs Ben, promising him peace, like Palpatine did with Anakin. Han's help comes too late, Luke is eaten by guilt about his dad, leia never forgave him and now sees him in his son. Could be?
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 11 Sep - 14:32

I feel so sorry for Ben Solo.
Mum put the Resistance first, dad wasn't there - hell, he comes across as someone abandoned by those he loved and left with nothing.

Sounds familiar...
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Maria Antonietta on Sun 11 Sep - 14:42

motherofpearl1 wrote:I feel so sorry for Ben Solo.
Mum put the Resistance first, dad wasn't there - hell, he comes across as someone abandoned by those he loved and left with nothing.

Sounds familiar...
@motherofpearl1

The thing that bothered me the most was Han bonding easily with finn and rey and tells Leia that there's too much Vader in his son About to C
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 11 Sep - 14:44

Maria Antonietta wrote:
motherofpearl1 wrote:I feel so sorry for Ben Solo.
Mum put the Resistance first, dad wasn't there - hell, he comes across as someone abandoned by those he loved and left with nothing.

Sounds familiar...
@motherofpearl1

The thing that bothered me the most was Han bonding easily with finn and rey and tells Leia that there's too much Vader in his son About to C
@Maria Antonietta

Yes, and I can't help but notice that fleeting look of hurt on Kylo's face when he's looking through Rey's mind and he sees their bond...it must have stung.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 11 Sep - 18:15

Excellent work, @panki!

I also think that there was probably a more "concrete" incident of abandonment by Han and Leia, beyond them just not being there enough for him as a kid. I know that I've tended to focus on that abandonment being related to whatever happened at Luke's temple, but the idea that Ben may have even joined the Resistance and been captured and never rescued...wow, that would be even more poignant/tragic.

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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by panki on Sun 11 Sep - 20:59

MeadowofAshes wrote:@panki @motherofpearl1
Remember @svorza's tall young man in a pith helmet that we thought could be a Resistance pilot and "this is where her mind starts to change"? Also, Pablo's statement that Ben "has ability" as a pilot?

I think you're into something @panki. What if Ben was on a mission and was abandoned by the Resistance when he disappeared? And we know the brainwashing that's taking place in "Life Debt".
@MeadowofAshes

Maybe Ben was visiting Leia before leaving for the mission on behalf of the resistance from which he didn't return and was subsequently abandoned by the resistance...this definitely will leave Rey feeling conflicted, particularly since she was so excited about the resistance in episode VII (when Finn lied about being a part of the resistance)

His misery and bad condition (whether self imposed or due to others mistreatment) is also reflected in the junior novelisation of TFA:

Ben had the wavy dark hair that Han remembered, now shoulder length. His mother’s cheeks, Han’s chin. Yet everything about him was narrow and stark, as if he had starved himself of nourishment. And his eyes were not the brown eyes Han remembered. They were dim and dark and terribly sad.

Speaking of brainwashing that takes place in Life Debt, the parallels between how the place turns cloudy at the time of Brentin Wexley's manchurian candidate moment and the oscillator going dark on the walkway in TFA is quite uncanny (and Kylo's eyes and general expression changing as well).



@ISeeAnIsland

I wonder if the other jedi humiliated him/drove him away/tried to kill him for being Vader's grandson which also led him to join the resistance.... it could explain him being particularly angry with them and returning to burn down the jedi temple once he turned to the dark side.

Even if we remove the manchurian angle from this, Ben's parents were too preoccupied with their own duties and packed him off (read: neglected) to his uncle, his fellow students possibly hurt/rejected him when they found out he was Vader's grandson and finally the resistance might have abandoned him when he was captured- he obviously feels alone and abandoned by everything he cared for....maybe he saw something of that in Rey and tried to reach out to her?


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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by ZioRen on Sun 11 Sep - 21:01

motherofpearl1 wrote:I feel so sorry for Ben Solo.
Mum put the Resistance first, dad wasn't there - hell, he comes across as someone abandoned by those he loved and left with nothing.

Sounds familiar...
@motherofpearl1

Now add the Force to that, which is a whole confusing and difficult animal to navigate. Especially before he had Luke to guide him, and even that likely felt like an abandonment to him.

@panki

One of my favorite theories is that some of the Padawans turned on Ben after they found out he was related to Vader (and when Luke wasn't around) and that Ben retaliated. But he went too far and turned self defense into a massacre out of rage. I think that's a great blend of understandable and sympathetic reason while still not absolving Kylo of responsibility for his actions.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by panki on Sun 11 Sep - 21:09

@ZioRen

I actually now think it is possible he killed the padawans after reading those book extracts together....but I think he might have been attacked by them first when they found out he was Vader's grandson, left to join the resistance, got captured and tortured and then after turning to the dark side he returned to the temple, killed the jedi there and burnt down the temple.

There are many hints about a failed resistance mission....so there has to be some gap between the Vader reveal and the burning temple...and this is a possible way to explain it.

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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by ZioRen on Sun 11 Sep - 21:13

panki wrote:@ZioRen

I actually now think it is possible he killed the padawans after reading those book extracts together....but I think he might have been attacked by them first when they found out he was Vader's grandson, left to join the resistance, got captured and tortured and then after turning to the dark side he returned to the temple, killed the jedi there and burnt down the temple.

There are many hints about a failed resistance mission....so there has to be some gap between the Vader reveal and the burning temple...and this is a possible way to explain it.
@panki

The only reason I'm not too sold on that is because Bloodline happened so close to TFA, and Kylo has been gone for at least five years. The Resistance piece of it would have to be a pretty tight timeline.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by panki on Sun 11 Sep - 21:24

@ZioRen

Ben might have been captured during one of the early missions of the resistance (Poe literally goes from one mission to the next with barely any break), hence the need to leave him behind and keep the resistance's involvement a secret....that would still allow at least 4-5 years for Kylo to be a prisoner of the FO, turn to the dark side and return for the temple burning incident. (The events of TFA occurred over 2 days.....4-5 years is a lifetime in the SW universe)

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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by snufkin on Sun 11 Sep - 21:31

panki wrote:@ZioRen

Ben might have been captured during one of the early missions of the resistance (Poe literally goes from one mission to the next with barely any break), hence the need to leave him behind and keep the resistance's involvement a secret....that would still allow at least 4-5 years for Kylo to be a prisoner of the FO, turn to the dark side and return for the temple burning incident. (The events of TFA occurred over 2 days.....4-5 years is a lifetime in the SW universe)
@panki

They've already said that what happened is not that he was a Bad Seed, that he had a target on his back. Something has to have occurred both with the Jedi and the New Republic that shook his faith in those systems that was bad enough for him to feel (other quote) that following Snoke and the FO is the right thing to do. The family dysfunction is at the heart of it, but there has to have been something that felt like a complete betrayal, both on a personal and political/spiritual level. And that betrayal in turn would be enough to gain Rey's sympathy and shake the audience mindset that Jedi/NR are without blame in what has occurred (and in turn that she has reason to be sympathetic towards him).


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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by ZioRen on Sun 11 Sep - 21:41

panki wrote:@ZioRen

Ben might have been captured during one of the early missions of the resistance (Poe literally goes from one mission to the next with barely any break), hence the need to leave him behind and keep the resistance's involvement a secret....that would still allow at least 4-5 years for Kylo to be a prisoner of the FO, turn to the dark side and return for the temple burning incident. (The events of TFA occurred over 2 days.....4-5 years is a lifetime in the SW universe)
@panki

But the Vader reveal happened just 6 years ago, and I think Pablo has said that Kylo has been working with Hux for at least five years. If the Padawans turning on him happened before he joined the Resistance, the 4-5 years number doesn't make sense. I think it's safe to say that Luke has been missing for at least 5 years too, considering they act like they haven't seen him in a long time. Which pegs the massacre very shortly after Bloodline.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by vaderito on Sun 11 Sep - 21:46

Pablo also said that we should be careful about what we assume that his reactions, etc were. He didn't specify which group of fans. I don't have the tweet but it was posted recently in Tweets. 

That said, I'm more intrigued by the possibility that he was born on Jakku during the battle for Jakku. Leia is showing and Rax moved all troops to the planet. So next book is going to deal with the battle and possible birth. And anticipated births are usually dramatic ones. So...
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by ZioRen on Sun 11 Sep - 21:50

vaderito wrote:Pablo also said that we should be careful about what we assume that his reactions, etc were. He didn't specify which group of fans. I don't have the tweet but it was posted recently in Tweets. 

That said, I'm more intrigued by the possibility that he was born on Jakku during the battle for Jakku. Leia is showing and Rax moved all troops to the planet. So next book is going to deal with the battle and possible birth. And anticipated births are usually dramatic ones. So...
@vaderito

Hasn't it already been said that the next book will have the strongest ties to the Sequel Trilogy too? I remember seeing that somewhere.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by vaderito on Sun 11 Sep - 21:52

@ZioRen yes, that we'll want to watch TFA right away. Some assume it'll have something to do with Rey cause



but I think that Baby!Ben and possible Snoke hint are going to be it.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 11 Sep - 22:06

snufkin wrote:
panki wrote:@ZioRen

Ben might have been captured during one of the early missions of the resistance (Poe literally goes from one mission to the next with barely any break), hence the need to leave him behind and keep the resistance's involvement a secret....that would still allow at least 4-5 years for Kylo to be a prisoner of the FO, turn to the dark side and return for the temple burning incident. (The events of TFA occurred over 2 days.....4-5 years is a lifetime in the SW universe)
@panki

They've already said that what happened is not that he was a Bad Seed, that he had a target on his back. Something has to have occurred both with the Jedi and the New Republic that shook his faith in those systems that was bad enough for him to feel (other quote) that following Snoke and the FO is the right thing to do. The family dysfunction is at the heart of it, but there has to have been something that felt like a complete betrayal, both on a personal and political/spiritual level. And that betrayal in turn would be enough to gain Rey's sympathy and shake the audience mindset that Jedi/NR are without blame in what has occurred (and in turn that she has reason to be sympathetic towards him).
@snufkin

Right. The bolded is why I'm fairly sure that there had to have been a concrete incident where Ben was betrayed/abandoned by his family. The already-existing dysfunction and possibly getting sent off to Luke would have laid the groundwork for Ben to react the way he did, but I think there was more to the story than Han and Leia not being around enough.

Rey had a concrete incident of abandonment, when she was left on Jakku. I expect Ben/Kylo to have experienced something of a similar magnitude that will mirror Rey's abandonment in some way.

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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by snufkin on Sun 11 Sep - 22:15

ISeeAnIsland wrote:
snufkin wrote:
panki wrote:@ZioRen

Ben might have been captured during one of the early missions of the resistance (Poe literally goes from one mission to the next with barely any break), hence the need to leave him behind and keep the resistance's involvement a secret....that would still allow at least 4-5 years for Kylo to be a prisoner of the FO, turn to the dark side and return for the temple burning incident. (The events of TFA occurred over 2 days.....4-5 years is a lifetime in the SW universe)
@panki

They've already said that what happened is not that he was a Bad Seed, that he had a target on his back. Something has to have occurred both with the Jedi and the New Republic that shook his faith in those systems that was bad enough for him to feel (other quote) that following Snoke and the FO is the right thing to do. The family dysfunction is at the heart of it, but there has to have been something that felt like a complete betrayal, both on a personal and political/spiritual level. And that betrayal in turn would be enough to gain Rey's sympathy and shake the audience mindset that Jedi/NR are without blame in what has occurred (and in turn that she has reason to be sympathetic towards him).
@snufkin

Right. The bolded is why I'm fairly sure that there had to have been a concrete incident where Ben was betrayed/abandoned by his family. The already-existing dysfunction and possibly getting sent off to Luke would have laid the groundwork for Ben to react the way he did, but I think there was more to the story than Han and Leia not being around enough.

Rey had a concrete incident of abandonment, when she was left on Jakku. I expect Ben/Kylo to have experienced something of a similar magnitude that will mirror Rey's abandonment in some way.
@ISeeAnIsland

Yeah that's why my guess is that whatever guilty secret or darkness Luke is harboring has to be tied to whatever happened to Ben. They're family and he was entrusted to look after/guide his sister's only child. So the betrayal has to be personal, more than just Mom & Dad neglected him or that he was a spoiled brat who wanted power. It could even be scenario where Snoke was the only safe place for him to go.

Rey's started to finally admit that she spent all her life waiting in vain and "we'll come back for you" may have been empty words. Maz forced that to happen. So if she's not stuck on a remote island planet with only two other people, she can't outrun that realization anymore. It's going to hit her. And she'll know better than anybody else the emotions he went through.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by panki on Sun 11 Sep - 22:52

ZioRen wrote:
panki wrote:
@panki

But the Vader reveal happened just 6 years ago, and I think Pablo has said that Kylo has been working with Hux for at least five years. If the Padawans turning on him happened before he joined the Resistance, the 4-5 years number doesn't make sense. I think it's safe to say that Luke has been missing for at least 5 years too, considering they act like they haven't seen him in a long time. Which pegs the massacre very shortly after Bloodline.
@ZioRen

Actually PH said that Kylo and Hux worked together sometime within the last five years so it could be anything from less than a month to five years.

So there is more than enough time for Kylo to be betrayed by his fellow jedi students, join the resistance, go an at least one mission, get captured and abandoned, get tortured, turn to the dark side and return as an angry Kylo Ren to burn the temple and have his revenge on all who hurt and betrayed him (friends, family, republic, resistance).

I am confused regarding his feelings for Luke though.... does he want to hurt Luke for not being there for him? Or does he think Luke is the only person who can help him?



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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by ZioRen on Sun 11 Sep - 22:55

@panki

Fair enough. I just don't see it happening quite that way. I don't think the massacre happened so recently, nor Luke's subsequent disappearance. Not from the way everyone was talking about it.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by panki on Sun 11 Sep - 22:57

ZioRen wrote:@panki

Fair enough. I just don't see it happening quite that way. I don't see the massacre happening so recently, nor Luke's subsequent disappearance. Not from the way everyone was talking about it.
@ZioRen

I understand you might have a different view.... all I am trying to do is give a possible scenario based on the books I read and the clues we have got so far.... I could always be wrong...but at least for now, my scenario is a plausible one.

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