Ben's Childhood

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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 1:12 pm

@Search Your Feelings wrote:Yeah, the only outcome after redemption and helping bring the FO/Snoke down would be exile either self imposed or Leia/the Resistance does it (if she lives).
@Search Your Feelings
It'll be self-imposed for sure. I think there would be some believability issues with Leia exiling her son after the events of VIII and IX, I don't think exile is a satisfying punishment at all unless he chooses it for himself. It has to be a testament to how much he's evolved as an individual.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Macha Ren on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 1:32 pm

I'm totally in the exile camp as well. He really needs to find himself after being a possession with little free will for so long. In fact, I could see him heading out to try to understand the Force better by passively letting it move him instead of actively always trying to control the Force.

Yes, very wistful and bittersweet farewell. But full of promise (i.e., come back to me when you figure yourself out.) A beautiful epilogue would be a few years in the future, he's the one showing up on her island. Nice parallel to the rumors he shows up on Ahch-To in Ep8. That's a kiss I would love and is totally in my headcanon.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Search Your Feelings on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 1:41 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Search Your Feelings wrote:Yeah, the only outcome after redemption and helping bring the FO/Snoke down would be exile either self imposed or Leia/the Resistance does it (if she lives).
@Search Your Feelings
It'll be self-imposed for sure. I think there would be some believability issues with Leia exiling her son after the events of VIII and IX, I don't think exile is a satisfying punishment at all unless he chooses it for himself. It has to be a testament to how much he's evolved as an individual.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Agree, he needs to take full responsibility. I don't see how Disney wouldn't want to go down this route since that leaves Skywalker alive in the universe, and can spawn countless spinoffs about his adventures and his internal struggle. They can also keep bringing back Han/Leia/Luke/Anakin as force ghosts or ghosts/visions because he's the only character who connects them all together.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by snufkin on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:32 pm

While I totally enjoy the idea of him becoming some kind of Space MacArthur at the end of the 3rd movie, give the poor kid a break. Entire childhood/adolescence feeling alienated and like an outcast because of off the charts Force powers, mental grooming/manipulation from Snoke, and parents' constant fighting/separation, then getting packed off to God knows what weirdness Luke was up to. Final straw of humiliation/reveal that his heritage is a lie - runs off to Snoke in the hopes that he'll finally have some sense of belonging (key word Maz drops to Rey). Instead seems to be pretty miserable and alone in the FO with only the mask of a dead relative to talk to. Rey's probably the first time he's felt any kind of connection to another person, which is why he goes nuts around her. And Leia has said emphatically that she wants him back. So besides metaphorical return to the Light in not surpressing that side of himself and throwing off Snoke's control, sort of hope the poor kid does his 12 steps and atonement/exile in the 3rd movie. He can get some therapy or join a 12 Step Group for Evildoers, but don't make him go be by himself when it seems like he's already spent his entire life in that miserable state.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:40 pm

@snufkin wrote:While I totally enjoy the idea of him becoming some kind of Space MacArthur at the end of the 3rd movie, give the poor kid a break. Entire childhood/adolescence feeling alienated and like an outcast because of off the charts Force powers, mental grooming/manipulation from Snoke, and parents' constant fighting/separation, then getting packed off to God knows what weirdness Luke was up to. Final straw of humiliation/reveal that his heritage is a lie - runs off to Snoke in the hopes that he'll finally have some sense of belonging (key word Maz drops to Rey). Instead seems to be pretty miserable and alone in the FO with only the mask of a dead relative to talk to. Rey's probably the first time he's felt any kind of connection to another person, which is why he goes nuts around her. And Leia has said emphatically that she wants him back. So besides metaphorical return to the Light in not surpressing that side of himself and throwing off Snoke's control, sort of hope the poor kid does his 12 steps and atonement/exile in the 3rd movie. He can get some therapy or join a 12 Step Group for Evildoers, but don't make him go be by himself when it seems like he's already spent his entire life in that miserable state.
@snufkin
I'll be happy with whatever outcome is satisfying for the character, and I think there are a few ways they could do it. I actually feel the same way about it as you. I don't think he'll necessarily be able to heal and mature naturally unless he is in the presence of people who support him, but it really depends on how they tell the story. I'm pretty open to lots of different directions here.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by BastilaBey on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:43 pm

@snufkin Hear hear, as much as exile sounds apt in theory, I want Leia to have her son back. And if that particular interpretation of Maz's words is correct - that Ben may be the belonging Rey seeks - what about what she needs too? I don't have an answer for how it could end, but I expect something uplifting and optimistic. If the trilogy is about Ben Solo coming home, it doesn't seem quite right for him to end up alone again.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:47 pm

@BastilaBey wrote:@snufkin Hear hear, as much as exile sounds apt in theory, I want Leia to have her son back. And if that particular interpretation of Maz's words is correct - that Ben may be the belonging Rey seeks - what about what she needs too? I don't have an answer for how it could end, but I expect something uplifting and optimistic. If the trilogy is about Ben Solo coming home, it doesn't seem quite right for him to end up alone again.
@BastilaBey
That's why I can only see it happening if it's his own temporary decision. There's no way he's going to be locked up or exiled by other characters, not if this trilogy really is going to be the answer to Leia telling Han to "bring him home". I actually think there are other (much more interesting and satisfying) directions that don't involve any form of exile, self-imposed or otherwise. What matters most is Ben's ability to heal from the traumas and mistakes of his past. Can he really do that on his own? I don't think so.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by snufkin on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:58 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:@snufkin Hear hear, as much as exile sounds apt in theory, I want Leia to have her son back. And if that particular interpretation of Maz's words is correct - that Ben may be the belonging Rey seeks - what about what she needs too? I don't have an answer for how it could end, but I expect something uplifting and optimistic. If the trilogy is about Ben Solo coming home, it doesn't seem quite right for him to end up alone again.
@BastilaBey
That's why I can only see it happening if it's his own temporary decision. There's no way he's going to be locked up or exiled by other characters, not if this trilogy really is going to be the answer to Leia telling Han to "bring him home". I actually think there are other (much more interesting and satisfying) directions that don't involve any form of exile, self-imposed or otherwise. What matters most is Ben's ability to heal from the traumas and mistakes of his past. Can he really do that on his own? I don't think so.

The upcoming weirdness may get into murky waters where he finally gets the chance to teach her ("untrained, but stronger than she knows") and there's the danger of corruption by the DS. Or exposure to Snoke, who'd likely want her dead. Based on what's been shown, it has to ultimately become a reciprocal relationship where they each teach something to each other that helps them grow/mature into the person who can face all the chaos going on around them. And that they have to work together and trust/depend on each other. Beyond that, like I said the point is made emphatically by Leia that she wants him back and to have him "come home." So give the poor lady what she wants after all the miserable things she's experienced in her personal life. Unless the next trilogy is about how she moves to a retirement community in the Outer Rim and Ben comes with her. Hijinks ensue as the blue haired beauties in the community chase after her handsome young son.

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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 5:19 pm

I honestly feel like "exile" is the automatic option for those who expect redemption but can't necessarily see how the writers will be able to overcome a hump as big as murdering one of the most beloved characters in history. Hasn't this trilogy already taught us that exile in itself is not the answer? Kylo can't just run away. Any exile has to come about through a mature, self-made decision, and it can't be about "being alone" or "separating himself from others" as a punishment. Helping people? That's more realistic to me, but we'll have to see. I just know that most of the "exile" outcomes are not at all satisfying to me personally, and I really don't think they suit Kylo as a character or certain parts of TFA, specifically Leia's intense desire to have her son "come home". I feel the ending can and should be bittersweet, but it has to be a beautiful and highly emotionally and narratively satisfying kind of bittersweet.

The point is all of this has to be done well. If it isn't it won't work at all. I'm really trusting that these writers decided to go in this direction because they know what they want to do with it.

For the record Naruto's light youth/dark you dynamic does end with a self-imposed exile, and it works simply from a coming-of-age perspective. The redeemed Sasuke goes off on his own in order to really find his own place in the world.





I think this could work with Kylo, but it has to be done well. We really need to believe that he's doing it because he wants it.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Kessel on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 5:55 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:I honestly feel like "exile" is the automatic option for those who expect redemption but can't necessarily see how the writers will be able to overcome a hump as big as murdering one of the most beloved characters in history. Hasn't this trilogy already taught us that exile in itself is not the answer? Kylo can't just run away. Any exile has to come about through a mature, self-made decision, and it can't be about "being alone" or "separating himself from others" as a punishment. Helping people? That's more realistic to me, but we'll have to see. I just know that most of the "exile" outcomes are not at all satisfying to me personally, and I really don't think they suit Kylo as a character or certain parts of TFA, specifically Leia's intense desire to have her son "come home". I feel the ending can and should be bittersweet, but it has to be a beautiful and highly emotionally and narratively satisfying kind of bittersweet.

The point is all of this has to be done well. If it isn't it won't work at all. I'm really trusting that these writers decided to go in this direction because they know what they want to do with it.

For the record Naruto's light youth/dark you dynamic does end with a self-imposed exile, and it works simply from a coming-of-age perspective. The redeemed Sasuke goes off on his own in order to really find his own place in the world.





I think this could work with Kylo, but it has to be done well. We really need to believe that he's doing it because he wants it.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I think there is an element of the bolded when it comes to the exile option.

For me, I think Kylo first needs to find himself and his identity, and atone before he can heal. I agree that any exile must be his decision, not a punishment. I think by choosing (temporary) exile, Kylo would show a new-found selflessness and true desire to atone for his actions. It might even have a little to do with punishing himself too...

Btw, I hate the idea of him being "striped of the Force" (a theory I've seen elsewhere). I don't think that accomplishes anything.  I want to see him use his powers for good. He could certainly do that by staying with Leia, Rey and the Resistance and helping to repair the damage he did, but then there's that looming question of "what about his crimes?" and would the others want Kylo around so soon? Should he be there so soon? I think he needs to travel and see what effect the war has had on the galaxy and what needs to be done to help make things better (there's several different ways this could take place).

I want him to eventually come to terms with himself, find peace and have a full and satisfying life (along with furthering the Skywalker and Solo family line).  I like the idea of him coming back to Rey (and Leia) when he feels he is closer to being the kind of man (and son) he believes they deserve.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 6:09 pm

@Kessel89
I agree. Maybe exile is just not the right word. It shouldn't be a punishment, but rather a personal choice that has more to do with self-discovery.

Stripped of the Force? Eesh. That sounds like another one of those "punishment" outcomes. I can see where the theory might make some sense in regards to Kylo's Force Sensitivity being more curse than gift, but it would be a lot more interesting to see him overcome that part of it than just lose it entirely. It's too easy IMO, and as you said, accomplishes nothing.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Saracene on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 6:37 pm

Personally I do feel that, while killing Han hasn't closed the door on Kylo's redemption, it did cut off his chances of coming back to his old life and world. By that I don't necessarily mean the moral issues of patricide and the practical matters of how Kylo would be viewed by the society because of his crimes etc. It's more about Kylo being offered a chance to come back, and him rejecting it. I don't think I can even explain it adequately, it's just sort of a gut feeling that, story-wise, this rejection is meant to have huge repercussions for his life regardless of whether he ultimately redeems himself or not.

I also have no problem with the idea that an exile scenario is at least partly about punishment, or self-punishment. Kylo's own suffering IMO doesn't cancel out the death and suffering he's caused to others. It's probably also to do with the fact that I have no problem with the idea of punishment in general.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Search Your Feelings on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 7:11 pm

@BastilaBey wrote:@snufkin Hear hear, as much as exile sounds apt in theory, I want Leia to have her son back. And if that particular interpretation of Maz's words is correct - that Ben may be the belonging Rey seeks - what about what she needs too? I don't have an answer for how it could end, but I expect something uplifting and optimistic. If the trilogy is about Ben Solo coming home, it doesn't seem quite right for him to end up alone again.
@BastilaBey

I don't know, I'm torn about that. Every time I watch the "kill them all" villagers scene (with women whimpering) and the striking down of LST, and then Han, I think he should have to pay for it as in, he can't just seamlessly integrate back into the Resistance and have all the perks without some form of punishment. I'd feel better about it if they explain that the villagers did some bad sith as well (bones in their windows, people disappearing, etc.) and that LST somehow did something in the past unwittingly to Ben Solo. And maybe that he initially tries to integrate but finds that he needs to atone more by self exiling himself.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 7:14 pm

@snufkin wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:@snufkin Hear hear, as much as exile sounds apt in theory, I want Leia to have her son back. And if that particular interpretation of Maz's words is correct - that Ben may be the belonging Rey seeks - what about what she needs too? I don't have an answer for how it could end, but I expect something uplifting and optimistic. If the trilogy is about Ben Solo coming home, it doesn't seem quite right for him to end up alone again.
@BastilaBey
That's why I can only see it happening if it's his own temporary decision. There's no way he's going to be locked up or exiled by other characters, not if this trilogy really is going to be the answer to Leia telling Han to "bring him home". I actually think there are other (much more interesting and satisfying) directions that don't involve any form of exile, self-imposed or otherwise. What matters most is Ben's ability to heal from the traumas and mistakes of his past. Can he really do that on his own? I don't think so.

The upcoming weirdness may get into murky waters where he finally gets the chance to teach her ("untrained, but stronger than she knows") and there's the danger of corruption by the DS. Or exposure to Snoke, who'd likely want her dead. Based on what's been shown, it has to ultimately become a reciprocal relationship where they each teach something to each other that helps them grow/mature into the person who can face all the chaos going on around them. And that they have to work together and trust/depend on each other. Beyond that, like I said the point is made emphatically by Leia that she wants him back and to have him "come home." So give the poor lady what she wants after all the miserable things she's experienced in her personal life. Unless the next trilogy is about how she moves to a retirement community in the Outer Rim and Ben comes with her. Hijinks ensue as the blue haired beauties in the community chase after her handsome young son.

@snufkin

All of this. If Rey truly falls in love with Kylo by the end of IX, it punishes her as well for Kylo to go off into exile. And to lose Kylo again would be a huge punishment to Leia. There are ways that I think they could make a self-imposed exile work to give a bittersweet ending, but I don't want to see Rey or certainly Leia suffer as a result.

And as far as the bolded goes, I think we've had strong foreshadowing that we'll see this. There was, of course, the famous "you need a teacher" line, but as most of us picked up on, he had already been teaching her through their mindreading. If Luke is a reluctant/unstable teacher, I think we could see the start of Kylo teaching Rey as early as VIII.

All of this is a roundabout way of saying that I would expect that at least part of Kylo's atonement is going to deal with him teaching other Force sensitive people...probably starting with Rey.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by snufkin on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 8:22 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@snufkin

All of this. If Rey truly falls in love with Kylo by the end of IX, it punishes her as well for Kylo to go off into exile. And to lose Kylo again would be a huge punishment to Leia. There are ways that I think they could make a self-imposed exile work to give a bittersweet ending, but I don't want to see Rey or certainly Leia suffer as a result.

And as far as the bolded goes, I think we've had strong foreshadowing that we'll see this. There was, of course, the famous "you need a teacher" line, but as most of us picked up on, he had already been teaching her through their mindreading. If Luke is a reluctant/unstable teacher, I think we could see the start of Kylo teaching Rey as early as VIII.

All of this is a roundabout way of saying that I would expect that at least part of Kylo's atonement is going to deal with him teaching other Force sensitive people...probably starting with Rey.
@ISeeAnIsland

Yeah, no doing anything that is an indirect punishment for either Leia or Rey. If there's any parallels between them besides being the brunette female lead and all around kick a** ladies, it's that they've both been handed a truly crappy lot in life when it comes to losing family members/loved ones. Packing him off to where ever is gonna make things awfully lonely for Leia (we get the impression that he and Luke may never get along), not to mention if there does pan out some kind of intense bond and mutual learning between him and Rey. I am only in favor of him being sent off if Leia and Rey get to go off together on some awesome lady adventures together. Think of it as Thelma & Louise in the MF, except without the driving off over a cliff ending.

Also the whole "going into exile" concept is like how society has a hard time in general with re-integrating people after experiences like being in the military, rehab, jail/prison, etc. And it's not even a loss of community (we'll have to see if the KoR are actually buddies with a sense of mission) for somebody who's been portrayed as being lonely and isolated his entire life. So again, Leia wants to bring him "home" because she knows how badly it hurt him when she sent him off to Luke and Maz talks about belonging. That doesn't seem likely with an exile scenario. His time in the wilderness will be covered in the next two movies and building a relationship/trust with people like Rey will be part of his rehabilitation.

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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Macha Ren on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 8:32 pm

In thinking about what the construct of exile would be, it may not mean being cleaved from those he loves. They could potentially visit him. Ben would just need to be separated from the resistance and the republic. In fact interacting with others could be a positive influence on him and I think for exile to be meaningful he would still need to have contact with his mother. Leia would, no doubt, be a touchstone for him on his journey. Rey as well. He would likely be a pariah with the greater humanity/civilization per se but that does not necessarily mean he would be completely isolated. It may mean he is merely for bidden from living on any of the core worlds. Or perhaps it may mean the inability to join the Jedi order or serve in the military or possess a weapon. There would be merits for self-imposed exile which would illustrate the desire for self-discipline. On the other hand a court imposed exile would be away both his mother and the growing republic to exact discipline in a less punitive fashion than imprisonment or execution to keep him on the straight narrow. In that situation I suspect you would have something on par with a probation officer that he would have to check in with and prove that he is not backsliding.

While many have need to inflict punishment there is something enticing about being cleaved from the force. However what may be even more powerful is a self-imposed time out from the force during this exile where he may choose to distance himself from it and perhaps Allow the Force to control and guide him instead of constantly trying to control and guide yhe Force.

that situation I suspect that he could grow a better understanding of the force and what it truly means to be a vessel of its power as opposed i I suspect that he could grow a better understanding of the force and what it truly means to be a vessel of its power as opposed to bending the Force to his will. I think when Ben understands and appreciates that difference, then he will find and accept the balance he needs to attain awareness in his quest for redemption.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Search Your Feelings on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 8:49 pm

Ben being stripped from force powers for a while during exile and reflecting on its loss and balance of it is a good story possibility, but then again, I struggle to see how that can be marketed. Ben still having force powers but struggling to find the balance while helping people seems to have more story potential. I could be wrong, if writers are good, they can make a paper bag interesting, but the GA equates SW with the Force. Having Ben Solo being stripped of it may be interesting but also may be way too metaphysical for kids and hard to translate graphically and in spinoffs.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by SoloSideCousin on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 10:19 pm

@snufkin wrote:While I totally enjoy the idea of him becoming some kind of Space MacArthur at the end of the 3rd movie, give the poor kid a break. Entire childhood/adolescence feeling alienated and like an outcast because of off the charts Force powers, mental grooming/manipulation from Snoke, and parents' constant fighting/separation, then getting packed off to God knows what weirdness Luke was up to. Final straw of humiliation/reveal that his heritage is a lie - runs off to Snoke in the hopes that he'll finally have some sense of belonging (key word Maz drops to Rey). Instead seems to be pretty miserable and alone in the FO with only the mask of a dead relative to talk to. Rey's probably the first time he's felt any kind of connection to another person, which is why he goes nuts around her. And Leia has said emphatically that she wants him back. So besides metaphorical return to the Light in not surpressing that side of himself and throwing off Snoke's control, sort of hope the poor kid does his 12 steps and atonement/exile in the 3rd movie. He can get some therapy or join a 12 Step Group for Evildoers, but don't make him go be by himself when it seems like he's already spent his entire life in that miserable state.
@snufkin

Yeah, I definitely don't want him alone. He does deserve a huge break. His life has largely been a nightmare. That's why all of my exile headcanons always involve him actually findiing a good group of loyal friends (his own people, you know what I mean), having great success in doing something that doesn't involve the force but brings goodness or beauty into the world even if he is still kind of jack*** at times Smile , because I think the force has been a terrible burden to him *and* I will duck now ... even having other romantic relationships. (I know, I know, but I've always admitted I'm Kylo first, lol). But honestly, to me he is such an interesting character that he really could have all kinds of fascinating paths with all different kinds of romantic partners and can take journeys he could never take with Rey. My loyalty to this forum always makes me figure out a way to make his wives pass away tragically so I can eventually have him get back together with Rey. :-) But frequently he returns with a kid and fiercely loyal group and a whole new outlook on life that is challenging in a good way to the Jedi view. I think I like these kinds of scenarios because when he comes back he's somebody to be reckoned with and he's got people who love him as is and it makes he and Rey much more emotionally equal ... which I guess I personally like better. I love how he is so impressed with her ... but I think I would like to eventually see her impressed with him as well. And unless they have a kick-a** twist backstory that changes her whole view of him, (which I think they might and hope they do), he will always be thanking the force that she accepts him ... the success in exile scenarios do away with a lot of that.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by snufkin on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 10:36 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@snufkin

Yeah, I definitely don't want him alone. He does deserve a huge break. His life has largely been a nightmare. That's why all of my exile headcanons always involve him actually findiing a good group of loyal friends (his own people, you know what I mean), having great success in doing something that doesn't involve the force but brings goodness or beauty into the world even if he is still kind of jack*** at times Smile , because I think the force has been a terrible burden to him *and* I will duck now ... even having other romantic relationships. (I know, I know, but I've always admitted I'm Kylo first, lol). But honestly, to me he is such an interesting character that he really could have all kinds of fascinating paths with all different kinds of romantic partners and can take journeys he could never take with Rey. My loyalty to this forum always makes me figure out a way to make his wives pass away tragically so I can eventually have him get back together with Rey. :-) But frequently he returns with a kid and fiercely loyal group and a whole new outlook on life that is challenging in a good way to the Jedi view. I think I like these kinds of scenarios because when he comes back he's somebody to be reckoned with and he's got people who love him as is and it makes he and Rey much more emotionally equal ... which I guess I personally like better. I love how he is so impressed with her ... but I think I would like to eventually see her impressed with him as well. And unless they have a kick-a** twist backstory that changes her whole view of him, (which I think they might and hope they do), he will always be thanking the force that she accepts him ... the success in exile scenarios do away with a lot of that.
@SoloSideCousin

My guess is that he hoped giving into Snoke and joining the KoR would give him that loyal Band of Brothers, go out into the world on his own to prove himself. Which it may have to a certain extent, but ultimately it's trapped him as Snoke's pawn. He'll have a backstory to help change her view of him, but I'd bet that his loyal friend and great success (and yes, romantic relationship) arc on the path to redemption will be with Rey.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Saracene on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 11:26 pm

@Search Your Feelings wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:@snufkin Hear hear, as much as exile sounds apt in theory, I want Leia to have her son back. And if that particular interpretation of Maz's words is correct - that Ben may be the belonging Rey seeks - what about what she needs too? I don't have an answer for how it could end, but I expect something uplifting and optimistic. If the trilogy is about Ben Solo coming home, it doesn't seem quite right for him to end up alone again.
@BastilaBey

I don't know, I'm torn about that. Every time I watch the "kill them all" villagers scene (with women whimpering) and the striking down of LST, and then Han, I think he should have to pay for it as in, he can't just seamlessly integrate back into the Resistance and have all the perks without some form of punishment. I'd feel better about it if they explain that the villagers did some bad sith as well (bones in their windows, people disappearing, etc.) and that LST somehow did something in the past unwittingly to Ben Solo.   And maybe that he initially tries to integrate but finds that he needs to atone more by self exiling himself.  
@Search Your Feelings

Agree with the bold.

Thing is, they've painted Snoke/First Order in TFA as total and utter eeeeevil and I doubt that Snoke's portrayal is going to change in that regard. If they turned around and said, well look Kylo's been Snoke's right-hand-man for six years but he only ever managed to kill the bad people who deserved it, without any innocent blood on his hands, I'd cry total and utter bs. I liked that they pulled no punches with Kylo and didn't try to sugarcoat what he does because he's a special Skywalker.

Re: Leia, it will be interesting to see where she stands on Kylo in the next movie. While I'm sure that she'd love her son no matter what he's done, I wouldn't be surprised if her faith in his return is badly shaken. She was so full of certainty that his family could still save him, and the possibility of him hurting Han clearly didn't even enter her mind. What is left now to make him come back? I mean, unlike us Leia is not going to think that maybe Ben will fall in love with that nice girl from Jakku and that will snap him out.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Slade on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 11:58 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@snufkin wrote:While I totally enjoy the idea of him becoming some kind of Space MacArthur at the end of the 3rd movie, give the poor kid a break. Entire childhood/adolescence feeling alienated and like an outcast because of off the charts Force powers, mental grooming/manipulation from Snoke, and parents' constant fighting/separation, then getting packed off to God knows what weirdness Luke was up to. Final straw of humiliation/reveal that his heritage is a lie - runs off to Snoke in the hopes that he'll finally have some sense of belonging (key word Maz drops to Rey). Instead seems to be pretty miserable and alone in the FO with only the mask of a dead relative to talk to. Rey's probably the first time he's felt any kind of connection to another person, which is why he goes nuts around her. And Leia has said emphatically that she wants him back. So besides metaphorical return to the Light in not surpressing that side of himself and throwing off Snoke's control, sort of hope the poor kid does his 12 steps and atonement/exile in the 3rd movie. He can get some therapy or join a 12 Step Group for Evildoers, but don't make him go be by himself when it seems like he's already spent his entire life in that miserable state.
@snufkin

Yeah, I definitely don't want him alone.  He does deserve a huge break.  His life has largely been a nightmare. That's why all of my exile headcanons always involve him actually findiing a good group of loyal friends (his own people, you know what I mean), having great success in doing something that doesn't involve the force but brings goodness or beauty into the world even if he is still kind of jack*** at times  Smile , because I think the force has been a terrible burden to him *and* I will duck now ... even having other romantic relationships.  (I know, I know, but I've always admitted I'm Kylo first, lol).  But honestly, to me he is such an interesting character that he really could have all kinds of fascinating paths with all different kinds of romantic partners and can take journeys he could never take with Rey.  My loyalty to this forum always makes me figure out a way to make his wives pass away tragically so I can eventually have him get back together with Rey. :-)  But frequently he returns with a kid and fiercely loyal group and a whole new outlook on life that is challenging in a good way to the Jedi view.  I think I like these kinds of scenarios because when he comes back he's somebody to be reckoned with and he's got people who love him as is and it makes he and Rey much more emotionally equal ... which I guess I personally like better.  I love how he is so impressed with her ... but I think I would like to eventually see her impressed with him as well.  And unless they have a kick-a** twist backstory that changes her whole view of him, (which I think they might and hope they do), he will always be thanking the force that she accepts him ... the success in exile scenarios do away with a lot of that.
@SoloSideCousin

This is good too.  I could see him with someone besides Rey.  I just want him with Rey now because that's where it looks like it's going, and they seem a potential good match. Heck,I just want the guy happy and safe.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by ZioRen on Sat 25 Jun 2016, 12:30 am

The question of what I want to happen to Kylo is a tricky one. On one hand, exile seems like it'd work the best. General society would never allow Kylo back into it; they'd want his head for good reason. The only way it would work is if he was with his family in secret, and something about that would feel kind of....wrong after everything he's done. Kylo needs serious time to atone, and real redemption will have to go beyond just helping to stop the "big bad" like Vader did. I always imagined his redemption would involve going on some self-imposed exile and working to help others. Maybe he can even teach others the ways of the Force in a way that isn't darkness and anger. He knows Jedi technique, after all!

But at the same time, I feel like that's what Kylo would most want were he to switch sides right now. Because then he doesn't have to really face his family and really live with what he's done. Kylo helping resolve the plot and then saying "peace out" to his mom and running off is kind of an easy way out for him, since most of his tension and many of his horrible choices revolve around his family and feelings of abandonment.

And if he's to be with Rey in some way, I can't see her running off with him. Not when she's finally finding her family in Finn and likely Leia and Luke. So either he sticks around, or he goes it alone the way I see it. That's not necessarily a bad way to end it, though, if it's implied that he'll return in the future. Still, I feel like he needs to be around people and really work to repair what he's broken among his family. He has to make peace and amends with them if any of them are to move forward in a positive way. And even if it's the harder path in many ways, I feel like he and what's left of the OT will be ultimately happier in this scenario.

In a far future note, I so, SO want to see an older Kylo appear in subsequent movies (which let's be real, there will be. Disney's going to milk this for all it's worth) and play a big part in helping the new heroes, regardless of whether or not one of them is a Reylo baby! And I hope that even then he retains enough of his personality that he's not at all the world's greatest mentor. Laughing

And generally, what people feel Kylo deserves as punishment will likely fluctuate depending on whether or not they lean heavily on certain elements of his past to explain his actions. Such as the Snoke "manipulation" thing.

On a slightly other note: What do you all think he would decide about his name were he to go through a redemption arc? Would he return to "Ben Solo" or stay "Kylo Ren"?
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Slade on Sat 25 Jun 2016, 12:37 am

I think he should stay as Kylo or choose a completely new name.  Ben Solo is gone, IMO.
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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 25 Jun 2016, 3:02 am

@snufkin wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@snufkin

Yeah, I definitely don't want him alone. He does deserve a huge break. His life has largely been a nightmare. That's why all of my exile headcanons always involve him actually findiing a good group of loyal friends (his own people, you know what I mean), having great success in doing something that doesn't involve the force but brings goodness or beauty into the world even if he is still kind of jack*** at times Smile , because I think the force has been a terrible burden to him *and* I will duck now ... even having other romantic relationships. (I know, I know, but I've always admitted I'm Kylo first, lol). But honestly, to me he is such an interesting character that he really could have all kinds of fascinating paths with all different kinds of romantic partners and can take journeys he could never take with Rey. My loyalty to this forum always makes me figure out a way to make his wives pass away tragically so I can eventually have him get back together with Rey. :-) But frequently he returns with a kid and fiercely loyal group and a whole new outlook on life that is challenging in a good way to the Jedi view. I think I like these kinds of scenarios because when he comes back he's somebody to be reckoned with and he's got people who love him as is and it makes he and Rey much more emotionally equal ... which I guess I personally like better. I love how he is so impressed with her ... but I think I would like to eventually see her impressed with him as well. And unless they have a kick-a** twist backstory that changes her whole view of him, (which I think they might and hope they do), he will always be thanking the force that she accepts him ... the success in exile scenarios do away with a lot of that.
@SoloSideCousin

My guess is that he hoped giving into Snoke and joining the KoR would give him that loyal Band of Brothers, go out into the world on his own to prove himself. Which it may have to a certain extent, but ultimately it's trapped him as Snoke's pawn. He'll have a backstory to help change her view of him, but I'd bet that his loyal friend and great success (and yes, romantic relationship) arc on the path to redemption will be with Rey. [b][/b]
@snufkin

@slade
"This is good too. I could see him with someone besides Rey. I just want him with Rey now because that's where it looks like it's going, and they seem a potential good match. Heck,I just want the guy happy and safe."

@snufkin: I think it will be too. :-) This isn't a 7 year series where they can introduce his perfect partner in Season 3. Laughing I definitely like Reylo, or I wouldn't be here. :-) But I agree with @slade, I just want him to be happy and safe ... and not so pathetic[i] at some point in the future, and no question Rey is the best chance for that. There are also amazing things built-into the story like the Adam and Eve angle and the Hades and Persephone angle and the Grey/Rogue/New Jedi angle that make it possible for them to be absolutely perfect ... but for me for that to happen her character needs to be stronger and more complex. I want her to be the equal in development and complexity to Kylo Ren, and I don't think she is ... [i]yet.

Don't get me wrong. I like Rey, but she is not written on the level that Kylo Ren is ... and I think my exile headcanons try to solve that problem. I actually *love* Rey when she is with Kylo and when they let her "Jakku" come out. She looks like his "grey" match then. She seems like a girl who has had to "do what she had to do" sometimes even if those things were really ugly. I think one of the books maybe even hinted that she had to kill somebody before. (Though I am not positive about that, since I didn't read the book myself). I think the original Kira was written as a much edgier girl. In fact, I think Rey was still edgy until JJ Abrams did rewrites so she didn't have so much tension with Finn. But for me, by doing that, they took a lot of complexity away. That "darkness", if you will, comes back when Kylo is around, but other times she is such a goofball cinnamon roll when her background on Jakku would have never allowed for that. The movie treats Kylo's history realistically, but not hers. If they had treated her background realistically, there wouldn't be so much of this issue that she has to be "protected from Kylo Ren" or that she never had to make terrible choices like Kylo Ren. Even if they just made her a little bit more like Han or even tough-as-nails Leia consistently, I would have no concerns. She could still be the "light in the darkness" to Kylo Ren, but still "get" Kylo Ren.

It all depends on where they go in Episode VIII. If they delve into her demons and/or have his demons remind her of her own, I will be very pleased. Also, and I know you don't like this route @snufkin, but if they make her touch/experience the dark side in a serious way, I will be very pleased as well ... because if she does something seriously bad, and feels the addictive appeal of the darkness, and maybe even tries to kill him while in that state until he does something to snap her back to sense, then I will also be very pleased because then she will really understand him[i].

I think a lot of fans are strongly Beauty and Beast people or strongly Grey Jedi. Some don't care and will just want them together. And I will be happy if he finds happiness and love. But if I had my way, it would go in the Grey Jedi direction. I can see the B&B appeal, but I tend to prefer things complicated and also B&B doesn't denote a long-term relationship of equality ... and to me equal relationships are always infinitely more interesting. I want Rey imperfect and psychologically messed up and I want her fall and overcome it and be amazing in spite of it all, just as he is a mess and I hope the same for him. That's probably why I imagine him with characters in the Outer Rim who might be played by Rooney Mara in [i]Girl with the Dragon Tattoo
mode or Jennifer Lawrence in Silver Linings Playbook, Winter's Bone or Hunger Games mode or Emma Stone in Birdman mode and *not* Emma Stone in Amazing Spider Man mode. I'm looking for that edge we saw in the interrogation and the Snow Fight to be explored fully. That girl is a great fit ... but if they revert her back to cinnamon roll too much, it all becomes him trying to gain her favor ... when if they were both more "Grey" and "real" they could join together not just as an awesome intense couple, but also could change the paradigm of the force forever, where there is not dark and light, only the force.

I could see Disney/LF doing a lot of things. I could see them looking at the SW universe in a realpolitik way to such an extent that Kylo does not really getting punished at all by the Galaxy because there will be too many planets who will still hate the Republic and Resistance and he might be the only non-evil person left standing from that structure to negotiate a peace with Leia and/or Poe. I could see him getting a pardon because he gave Leia the keys to the FO. I could see them coming up with all kinds of reasons why the "Academy" thing and the LST thing were more complicated that first appear and that he had no choice but to kill Han and Leia and Luke will accept him eventually and he will become first and best dark side drug "Yeah I've been there" counselor in the Galaxy, and that will be his ultimate service as he atones for his bad deeds. I can see Disney allowing a relationship with Rey, particularly in the Beauty and the Beast mindset and to a lesser extent a grey Jedi mindset.

But what I am not sure we will see from them is to allow Rey to be significantly imperfect in her characterization. I think there are just too many voices from various some schools of feminist thought that just will not tolerate that and Disney will not want to buck them. I actually think that view is extremely anti-feminist, but nobody is asking me. As a result, I am afraid that Rey will not get her own Kylo Ren treatment, and as such we will not get that Henry II/Eleanor of Aquitaine, Mr. Darcy/Lizzie Bennett, Scarlett/Rhett, Mr. Rochester/Jane Eyre or even the Bradley Cooper/Jennifer Lawrence pairing we got in Silver Linings Playbook or Mulder/Scully or even Adam/Hannah or Adam/Jessa (whatever your fancy) kind of pairing, and that would be a shame. Kylo Ren is an incredible, already iconic characterization. Rey needs that complexity too. I really hope they are not afraid to do it.


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Re: Ben's Childhood

Post by Maria Antonietta on Sat 25 Jun 2016, 3:13 am

I don't want him to be forever alone. He's been lonely for his entire life... I think he'll do something big to redeem himself, something that will shock the audience and all the characters around him. Ok, he denied his family, but you can't make others to "steal" his life (Millennium falcon, father figure, mother figure) and leave him in misery. One way to redeem himself could be bringing order to the galaxy, the purpose of his grandfather. I think that's what he meant when he said: I will finish what you started
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