JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

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Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Post by jakkusun on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 10:16 am

oooh I like this!

There were some other times I thought that the writers were being kind of meta like that. When Rey and Finn first take off in the Falcon and Rey says it hasn't flown in years, it has this bumpy start and all the dust is shaken off as it gets into the air. That is basically the whole crew restarting the franchise. Also, Rey scavenging in the graveyard on Jakku is like the team searching through the now dead EU for ideas they can repurpose. Lor San Tekka speaks the first line of the movie, "this will begin to make things right," which could mean that the ST will fix all the damage that has been done to the franchise by the PT.
Also, when Maz says, "the belonging you see is not behind you, it is ahead," is like what you said about how the ST needs to be different and look ahead.
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Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Post by vaderito on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 10:36 am

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2015/12/18/kylo-ren-is-the-centerpiece-of-star-wars-the-force-awakens

He’s a great villain, and even greater metaphor for J.J. Abrams.
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Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Post by vaderito on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 10:50 am

Finn has no subtext whatsoever.

Kylo = last Skywalker-Solo = JJ = anti-villain

So definitive not the villain. I see him as one of protagonists but the kind that Corelones and Sopranos are - protagonists who are usually villains in someone else's story.
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Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Post by BastilaBey on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 10:55 am

I completely love this idea and have been thinking a lot about how Kylo Ren represents the conflict of contemporary masculinity and its anxieties. Can't help but feel like the character hits a little too close to home and many male fans of the ot don't know how to deal. They want Han Solo and Luke, the witty scoundrel and straightforward hero, but they are characters from a different time.
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Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Post by vaderito on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 10:58 am

I call TFA Millennial Falcon because new characters with their insecurities, struggle with loneliness, feeling of abandonment and disillusion with institutions (military, family) represent Millennial generation much better that wish-fulfillment characters from ANH (space pirate, Princess, Jedi Knight in making, Jedi Knight) ever could.


Last edited by vaderito on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 11:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Post by BastilaBey on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 11:11 am

@force22 Agreed, there's wide consensus that the movie was good, but not really on what made it so. It seems to be a gendered divide, and also indicates a confusion surrounding what Star Wars' genre is. We live in a time where the box office is completely dominated by comic book movies, but that's not really what Star Wars is. A Star Wars villain isn't a superhero villain, especially one like Kylo Ren. The assumption is that because it's set in space and there are action sequences, Star Wars is made mostly for boys. JJ admitted as much, but in doing so implied that he wanted TFA to be different. I very much believe that Reylo was intentionally developed as a storyline to attract more women to the fandom, and it's worked. Much to many a fanboy's annoyance, they want it to be theirs.
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Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Post by vaderito on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 12:34 pm

I wouldn't call it a real divide. Among die-hard fans, yes, but not among casual viewers who like the movie and characters and move on. There's always divide among die-hard fans about anything. Nobody takes that seriously, at least not enough to make some radical changes to already established development.

Kylo Ren represents the conflict of contemporary masculinity and its anxieties.

One of reasons why some die hard fanboys are still hoping for Rey and Poe hook up cause Poe = traditional masculinity...that was completely subverted by that lip bite that launched Storm Pilot, but those old school fanboys don't want to see it. They want things to be like they used to be.
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Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Post by Airemyn on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 1:32 pm

@Force22 wrote:
@vaderito wrote:http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2015/12/18/kylo-ren-is-the-centerpiece-of-star-wars-the-force-awakens

He’s a great villain, and even greater metaphor for J.J. Abrams.

And I actually think Finn is the odd one in TFA, or Finn is not as meta. Finn walks away and doesn't look back. Is Finn representing us, the viewers who are not tied to a past, in a very ironic way? Or perhaps Finn just doesn't fit the analogy.

I like your whole idea here but I just wanted to comment on Finn. So far he has just walked away, but I do believe that his story will surround the stormtroopers and helping to free them in the next two parts of the trilogy, so maybe he will fit the analogy a bit further down the line.
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Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Post by vaderito on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 1:37 pm

Finn and Tran sitting in a tree
Set Storm Troopers free

Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

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Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Post by LadyHa on Sat 25 Jun 2016, 4:55 pm

@BastilaBey wrote:@force22 Agreed, there's wide consensus that the movie was good, but not really on what made it so. It seems to be a gendered divide, and also indicates a confusion surrounding what Star Wars' genre is. We live in a time where the box office is completely dominated by comic book movies, but that's not really what Star Wars is. A Star Wars villain isn't a superhero villain, especially one like Kylo Ren. The assumption is that because it's set in space and there are action sequences, Star Wars is made mostly for boys. JJ admitted as much, but in doing so implied that he wanted TFA to be different. I very much believe that Reylo was intentionally developed as a storyline to attract more women to the fandom, and it's worked. Much to many a fanboy's annoyance, they want it to be theirs.
@BastilaBey

I bolded a line above in your post, because it's something I have been thinking about.  This setup has worked so well, that I almost feel a sense of manipulation!  Ah, I am totally hooked, and keep thinking with some amusement-  How did these filmmakers know what would push my buttons?

Another clue to the intentional quality of Reylo relates to the modern tone of the romance that they seem to be setting up.  For comparison, I was a kid when the OT came out, but the Han-Leia interplay seemed very obvious to me: "oh, 2 attractive people are bantering=eventual hookup."  Because a LOT of on-screen pairings back in the 80s were all about the humorous bickering couple.  Cheers, Romancing the Stone, Remington Steele, Moonlighting.  As a kid, I actually assumed that courting was really like that most of the time. Rolling Eyes In contrast, many popular romances nowadays are characterized by intensity and are paranormal in nature.  I mean, is it a coincidence that another fated, paranormal romance (Twilight) was a mega-blockbuster when this script was being conceived?  Then again, maybe not; I don't really like the comparison!
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Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sat 25 Jun 2016, 5:19 pm

@LadyHa wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:@force22 Agreed, there's wide consensus that the movie was good, but not really on what made it so. It seems to be a gendered divide, and also indicates a confusion surrounding what Star Wars' genre is. We live in a time where the box office is completely dominated by comic book movies, but that's not really what Star Wars is. A Star Wars villain isn't a superhero villain, especially one like Kylo Ren. The assumption is that because it's set in space and there are action sequences, Star Wars is made mostly for boys. JJ admitted as much, but in doing so implied that he wanted TFA to be different. I very much believe that Reylo was intentionally developed as a storyline to attract more women to the fandom, and it's worked. Much to many a fanboy's annoyance, they want it to be theirs.
@BastilaBey

I bolded a line above in your post, because it's something I have been thinking about.  This setup has worked so well, that I almost feel a sense of manipulation!  Ah, I am totally hooked, and keep thinking with some amusement-  How did these filmmakers know what would push my buttons?

Another clue to the intentional quality of Reylo relates to the modern tone of the romance that they seem to be setting up.  For comparison, I was a kid when the OT came out, but the Han-Leia interplay seemed very obvious to me: "oh, 2 attractive people are bantering=eventual hookup."  Because a LOT of on-screen pairings back in the 80s were all about the humorous bickering couple.  Cheers, Romancing the Stone, Remington Steele, Moonlighting.  As a kid, I actually assumed that courting was really like that most of the time. Rolling Eyes In contrast, many popular romances nowadays are characterized by intensity and are paranormal in nature.  I mean, is it a coincidence that another fated, paranormal romance (Twilight) was a mega-blockbuster when this script was being conceived?  Then again, maybe not; I don't really like the comparison!
@LadyHa
Many of us have wondered if the dynamic was meant to attract the now grown-up paranormal YA novel fans actually. Would that be a bad move monetarily? Heck no, it would be a very good one, but they obviously conceived something that was more heavily inspired by true transformational dynamics that date back literally thousands of years. Uneducated, unread people can only ever conjure up Twilight as a comparison, but there's a reason that book series attracted such a huge swath of young female readers. The famous line from the Disney Beauty and the Beast film isn't inaccurate. This really is a "tale as old as time", and it can be high art or total garbage just like any story. Its success leans heavily upon the execution, and we're all hoping the production team really knows what its doing because there are so many ways this could go very wrong.
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Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Post by BastilaBey on Sat 25 Jun 2016, 5:28 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@LadyHa wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:@force22 Agreed, there's wide consensus that the movie was good, but not really on what made it so. It seems to be a gendered divide, and also indicates a confusion surrounding what Star Wars' genre is. We live in a time where the box office is completely dominated by comic book movies, but that's not really what Star Wars is. A Star Wars villain isn't a superhero villain, especially one like Kylo Ren. The assumption is that because it's set in space and there are action sequences, Star Wars is made mostly for boys. JJ admitted as much, but in doing so implied that he wanted TFA to be different. I very much believe that Reylo was intentionally developed as a storyline to attract more women to the fandom, and it's worked. Much to many a fanboy's annoyance, they want it to be theirs.
@BastilaBey

I bolded a line above in your post, because it's something I have been thinking about.  This setup has worked so well, that I almost feel a sense of manipulation!  Ah, I am totally hooked, and keep thinking with some amusement-  How did these filmmakers know what would push my buttons?

Another clue to the intentional quality of Reylo relates to the modern tone of the romance that they seem to be setting up.  For comparison, I was a kid when the OT came out, but the Han-Leia interplay seemed very obvious to me: "oh, 2 attractive people are bantering=eventual hookup."  Because a LOT of on-screen pairings back in the 80s were all about the humorous bickering couple.  Cheers, Romancing the Stone, Remington Steele, Moonlighting.  As a kid, I actually assumed that courting was really like that most of the time. Rolling Eyes In contrast, many popular romances nowadays are characterized by intensity and are paranormal in nature.  I mean, is it a coincidence that another fated, paranormal romance (Twilight) was a mega-blockbuster when this script was being conceived?  Then again, maybe not; I don't really like the comparison!
@LadyHa
Many of us have wondered if the dynamic was meant to attract the now grown-up paranormal YA novel fans actually. Would that be a bad move monetarily? Heck no, it would be a very good one, but they obviously conceived something that was more heavily inspired by true transformational dynamics that date back literally thousands of years. Uneducated, unread people can only ever conjure up Twilight as a comparison, but there's a reason that book series attracted such a huge swath of young female readers. The famous line from the Disney Beauty and the Beast film isn't inaccurate. This really is a "tale as old as time", and it can be high art or total garbage just like any story. Its success leans heavily upon the execution, and we're all hoping the production team really knows what its doing because there are so many ways this could go very wrong.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Honestly, when I first saw the movie and identified Reylo as where things were going, I thought to myself "Oh no...how are they going to pull that off?" Because it is ambitious and somewhat controversial, you can see that in many fan responses to the notion. So I did share their concern back then, before I learned Rian Johnson would be handling VIII and watching more of his stuff than I'd already seen. But there's no point worrying about it, we're not the ones involved. And I thought it was set up so beautifully in TFA that they must know where they want to take it and how to get there. It will be interesting to see how they balance the different hero journeys, Rey's and Finn's, for an overall cohesive and meaningful trilogy.

@LadyHa Welcome! Yes, I'm really not a fan of the Twilight comparison either...how about Beauty and the Beast, or Cupid and Psyche, or Jane Eyre, or East of the Sun, West of the Moon. Essentially anything from the 'search for the lost husband' fairytale family. Twilight would be an example of it being not well executed, imo, so hopefully they can do much better than that.
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Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Post by LadyHa on Sat 25 Jun 2016, 6:13 pm

Many of us have wondered if the dynamic was meant to attract the now grown-up paranormal YA novel fans actually. Would that be a bad move monetarily? Heck no, it would be a very good one, but they obviously conceived something that was more heavily inspired by true transformational dynamics that date back literally thousands of years. Uneducated, unread people can only ever conjure up Twilight as a comparison, but there's a reason that book series attracted such a huge swath of young female readers. The famous line from the Disney Beauty and the Beast film isn't inaccurate. This really is a "tale as old as time", and it can be high art or total garbage just like any story. Its success leans heavily upon the execution, and we're all hoping the production team really knows what its doing because there are so many ways this could go very wrong.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I agree that this story shows many elements of being so much more complex than just bowing to romance fads and trends.  But, then sometimes I resist and resort to cynicism!  I am afraid of being disappointed by the filmmakers' requirements to paint everything with such broad strokes in order to reach the broadest possible audiences and that it will get all watered down.  Still, it's remarkable how JJ et. al. created such intrigue with these characters in such a short amount of time.  Of course, many of the writers on this board have pointed out that the filmmakers were using shorthand that most people (should) recognize- the woods, the bridal carry, the suggestive dialogue.

On a personal note, I am not surprised that I have responded.  I am fascinated by the tale of Persephone, Wuthering Heights is easily my favorite book, and I get downright wistful every time I think of the Phantom of the Opera.  But, obviously, I am far from alone! Smile
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Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Post by snufkin on Sat 25 Jun 2016, 6:19 pm



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Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Post by LadyHa on Sat 25 Jun 2016, 6:44 pm

@snufkin wrote:

@snufkin

Haha, good one, took me several seconds to realize that was JJ in the second gif! Laughing
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Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Post by LadyHa on Sat 25 Jun 2016, 6:47 pm

Uneducated, unread people can only ever conjure up Twilight as a comparison, but there's a reason that book series attracted such a huge swath of young female readers. The famous line from the Disney Beauty and the Beast film isn't inaccurate. This really is a "tale as old as time", and it can be high art or total garbage just like any story. Its success leans heavily upon the execution, and we're all hoping the production team really knows what its doing because there are so many ways this could go very wrong.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Welcome! Yes, I'm really not a fan of the Twilight comparison either...how about Beauty and the Beast, or Cupid and Psyche, or Jane Eyre, or East of the Sun, West of the Moon. Essentially anything from the 'search for the lost husband' fairytale family. Twilight would be an example of it being not well executed, imo, so hopefully they can do much better than that.
@BastilaBey

I don't mean to knock Twilight too hard (nor to give it too much credit)!  I am a casual fan of many genre romance novels, and am sadly familiar with the unfair (in my opinion) disdain that gets heaped upon "women's" stories of all kinds.  I suppose my scrutiny has more to do with how these stories are dismissed as being all the same or merely as low-brow pandering to women, especially when they enter the realm of the Hollywood-style film.  I am actually feeling pretty excited that Star Wars seems to be pushing/ riding a more progressive wave when it comes to crafting storylines that appeal to an inclusive audience outside of the traditional demographic of white men of a certain age.

I don't know the tale East of the Sun, West of the Moon, but I see that there is a 1/2 hour version out there narrated by Max von Sydow. Fun- I know what I am going to listen to on my road trip tomorrow!
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Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Post by snufkin on Sat 25 Jun 2016, 9:31 pm

@LadyHa wrote:
@snufkin wrote:

@snufkin

Haha, good one, took me several seconds to realize that was JJ in the second gif! Laughing
@LadyHa

They both really really like Rey, just that Abrams is a little more willing to admit it.

@vaderito wrote:http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2015/12/18/kylo-ren-is-the-centerpiece-of-star-wars-the-force-awakens

He’s a great villain, and even greater metaphor for J.J. Abrams.
@vaderito

That's honestly the best review of this movie I've read. The author gets it completely right on the points of empathy and family, which again to talk about Looper, that's also ultimately a story about family contained w/in the science fiction and noir genres.
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